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Is determinism true?

rcreynolds
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8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?
Adam90
Posts: 1
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8/27/2016 11:11:15 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
Determinism is true, free will is nothing but an illusion. As humans we are determined by a huge variety of factors. Most obviously, our upbringing, many longitudinal studies in child development, show how our upbringing affects our sociability with others, aspects of our personality, and even future career paths. Also those brought up surrounded by neglect, and abuse are more likely to do the same to their young, or those they have relationships with. They are more likely to commit crime,and lack empathy. Virtually every sociopath found has suffered some sort of adverse childhood/upbringing. Our upbringing affects are psychology in a very complex way that is difficult to explain. Secondly genetics, genes control such a huge part of us, specific genes have been found to contribute to our intelligence, athletic ability, resilience and other aspects of our behaviour, including mental illness. This hugely contributes to the choices we make in life, for example our career paths, our general interests/hobbies and how we view the world. Our upbringing and genes have determined us in almost every way. You may claim you "chose" to behave the way you did, however your genetics, upbringing and many other factors led you to make this supposed free choice. The next thing to point out, is that we are products of a world and society that directly manipulates us and keeps us under control, a lot of the time without us even knowing. Look around you, why do you live in the place that you do, why do you have a job. The answer is because you had no choice, you were determined to do this because you had no other option. Why do you have to work- to receive money which is necessary for your survival. If you just happened to be born thousands of years ago, right know you would be hunting in the wild for your next meal, you would be building shelter/civilisation with humans which are now your ancestors. My point is, that the time and area we are born in greatly influences the life that we live, and our understanding of the universe, obviously we cannot freely choose the life we want to live because the generation and geography we are born in, completely manipulates our future, and limits our actions and possible decisions we could possibly make. We have to follow society in order to survive. I would also like to ask you why you have certain phobias, why you like certain foods, why do you like or dislike anything. This brings me on to social conditioning. Being human, our past memories, early experiences and peer pressure influence almost everything we have an opinion of. To put it simply this is an inbuilt mechanism in all of us, which subconsciously programmes us to fear or like certain things, and also pressurise to follow whats popular, which ultimately has a large influence in our everyday actions. Many people perceive these as free actions when in fact they are not. Businesses and politicians often use this to their advantage, using clever advertising and even scare mongering tactics to trick us into thinking certain ways, which cause us to purchase products or show support they so desperately crave. This often affects us in ways we are not consciously aware of. Thats why it can be so dangerous, and thats why our actions are not free in any way shape or form, this is only a small list of things that determine us.

Do i blame myself for my own actions, initially I do. I think that we are self-blaming creatures, when making mistakes i often look back, and wonder why i acted the way that i did , or question why i was so easily influenced or even manipulated. It is only years later, when looking back that i realise i was placed in a situation where for me there was only one outcome, one way i would react. It is then when i blame the "source". Often i look at other people, but it is often long gone when i realise how they affected me. I do not blame Satan because i dont believe in satan, or God or any religion. Not one part of me believes there is a magic man in the clouds, or a mysterious outside force that manipulates my actions. We are determined by others surrounding us, society, genes, the environment, and in-built evolutionary mechanisms that aid our survival, which can also be easily manipulated.
uncung
Posts: 3,431
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8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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8/27/2016 11:56:12 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If you define determinism as the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes regarded as external to the will, I think the doctrine is illogical. I think that doctrine ultimately gives people a scapegoat ( god or devil or nature) to blame rather than taking responsibility for the decisions and action of their own will.
Obviously natural forces or outside influences can cause people to act or react instinctively in certain ways at time but there are still times when we make determined choices without any outside influence but simply because we do what our own mind inspires us to do like type on a computer or watch TV or go to a party or stay home etc etc.
Therefore I conclude that we have control over some things in our lives but not over everything because nature and circumstances are stronger than the human will. For example, we all die no matter how much we will to live.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

I agree but as I said above, there are some things we can control with our will and others we cannot control. Both aspects exist in human lives.
Sometimes we can choose to do what we will do and other times we are forced into situations we would rather not be in.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

I personally take full responsibility for my own actions which I willingly choose. I take no responsibility for acts of nature which are forced upon me like my own birth and death.

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

I blame nature for the acts of nature. I blame other people for deliberate acts of their will. I blame no invisible gods or devils for anything.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,892
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8/28/2016 1:15:29 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
All well and good, Skyangel, but what you've done is reject determinism in order for people to have moral responsibility. What you haven't done is shown that determinism is false nor that people do have responsibilty.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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8/28/2016 1:28:51 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 1:15:29 AM, keithprosser wrote:
All well and good, Skyangel, but what you've done is reject determinism in order for people to have moral responsibility. What you haven't done is shown that determinism is false nor that people do have responsibilty.

I have neither 100% accepted nor rejected it as true or false. I explained that it appears to be true in some cases but not in others. I happen to see both sides of the picture and therefore need to consider both aspects. I think it is foolish to say it is only one or the other when it has two sides and two aspects to it.
The same with human responsibility. We can control some things we do but not others like breathing for example. It happens automatically like birth and death. We cannot control the forces that nature has over us. We can control daily decisions like whether we will type on an internet forum or not and whether we will eat one thing or another. No outside force makes us do it.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,892
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8/28/2016 2:29:22 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
I have neither 100% accepted nor rejected it as true or false.
Be fair - you did call determinism 'illogical' That is hardly sitting on the fence!

What you haven't done yet is tell us why determinism is actually illogical. You disapprove of people using determinism to absolve themselves of their moral responsibilities, but that doesn't make determinism illogical. It is logically consistent that people don't have moral responsibility and determinism is true. That may not be what we want to be be the case, but what we want and what is true don't have to co-incide, and very often they don't.
Willows
Posts: 2,027
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8/28/2016 3:01:00 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 2:29:22 AM, keithprosser wrote:
I have neither 100% accepted nor rejected it as true or false.
Be fair - you did call determinism 'illogical' That is hardly sitting on the fence!

What you haven't done yet is tell us why determinism is actually illogical. You disapprove of people using determinism to absolve themselves of their moral responsibilities, but that doesn't make determinism illogical. It is logically consistent that people don't have moral responsibility and determinism is true. That may not be what we want to be be the case, but what we want and what is true don't have to co-incide, and very often they don't.

Determinism is logical in that external sources influence the will. Some will take it to mean that there are external invisible, spiritual sources which is utter nonsense. Like the source belief itself, determination in this case is used as a convenient excuse by many.
What gets my goat is how many people loosely use the word "karma" as a blanket cover for anything they can't explain or predict.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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8/28/2016 4:45:12 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 2:29:22 AM, keithprosser wrote:
I have neither 100% accepted nor rejected it as true or false.
Be fair - you did call determinism 'illogical' That is hardly sitting on the fence!

I said the DOCTRINE that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes regarded as external to the will, is illogical. The part about including human action is the illogical part because not ALL human action is determined by external causes.

What you haven't done yet is tell us why determinism is actually illogical. You disapprove of people using determinism to absolve themselves of their moral responsibilities, but that doesn't make determinism illogical. It is logically consistent that people don't have moral responsibility and determinism is true. That may not be what we want to be be the case, but what we want and what is true don't have to co-incide, and very often they don't.

The reason why it is illogical to include all human action in the events determined by causes EXTERNAL to the human will is because the human will is involved in many human actions. I am not claiming the human will is involved in ALL human actions but it is definitely involved in many human actions.
EG...Your own action of typing in this forum is determined by your own will to do so not by some external cause. What you decide to eat out of the many choices of food you have for today is not determined by any exterior cause but determined by your personal taste and desires which are interior not exterior to your mind and will.

I disapprove of people blaming other people for their mistakes or trying to place the blame on invisible entities like the devil for the evil things they do or credit some god for their acts under the guise of some false humility. I think people should take responsibility for their own choices and acts instead of deceiving themselves into believing they are not in control of their own actions and something or someone else has taken control of their will and turned them into some kind of puppet on a string. However, I concede that there are some people in this world who do not have control of their own actions due to some mental or physical disabilities. Only those people could claim that some external force has caused them to do what they do IF Nature is the cause of their disabilities. If their own stupidity is the cause of their disabilities they have no one but themselves to blame.

Why do you think it is logically consistent that people do not have moral responsibility?
Irresponsible immoral people lack responsibility and morality but responsible moral people do not.

If you believe that no person is responsible for their own actions, do you blame a murderer for murdering another person or blame a rapist for raping someone or a thief for stealing something? If not, who or what do you blame for those human acts which violate and disrespect other people and their property?
rcreynolds
Posts: 59
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8/28/2016 5:26:42 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/27/2016 11:11:15 PM, Adam90 wrote:
Determinism is true, free will is nothing but an illusion. As humans we are determined by a huge variety of factors. Most obviously, our upbringing, many longitudinal studies in child development, show how our upbringing affects our sociability with others, aspects of our personality, and even future career paths. Also those brought up surrounded by neglect, and abuse are more likely to do the same to their young, or those they have relationships with. They are more likely to commit crime,and lack empathy. Virtually every sociopath found has suffered some sort of adverse childhood/upbringing. Our upbringing affects are psychology in a very complex way that is difficult to explain. Secondly genetics, genes control such a huge part of us, specific genes have been found to contribute to our intelligence, athletic ability, resilience and other aspects of our behaviour, including mental illness. This hugely contributes to the choices we make in life, for example our career paths, our general interests/hobbies and how we view the world. Our upbringing and genes have determined us in almost every way. You may claim you "chose" to behave the way you did, however your genetics, upbringing and many other factors led you to make this supposed free choice. The next thing to point out, is that we are products of a world and society that directly manipulates us and keeps us under control, a lot of the time without us even knowing. Look around you, why do you live in the place that you do, why do you have a job. The answer is because you had no choice, you were determined to do this because you had no other option. Why do you have to work- to receive money which is necessary for your survival. If you just happened to be born thousands of years ago, right know you would be hunting in the wild for your next meal, you would be building shelter/civilisation with humans which are now your ancestors. My point is, that the time and area we are born in greatly influences the life that we live, and our understanding of the universe, obviously we cannot freely choose the life we want to live because the generation and geography we are born in, completely manipulates our future, and limits our actions and possible decisions we could possibly make. We have to follow society in order to survive. I would also like to ask you why you have certain phobias, why you like certain foods, why do you like or dislike anything. This brings me on to social conditioning. Being human, our past memories, early experiences and peer pressure influence almost everything we have an opinion of. To put it simply this is an inbuilt mechanism in all of us, which subconsciously programmes us to fear or like certain things, and also pressurise to follow whats popular, which ultimately has a large influence in our everyday actions. Many people perceive these as free actions when in fact they are not. Businesses and politicians often use this to their advantage, using clever advertising and even scare mongering tactics to trick us into thinking certain ways, which cause us to purchase products or show support they so desperately crave. This often affects us in ways we are not consciously aware of. Thats why it can be so dangerous, and thats why our actions are not free in any way shape or form, this is only a small list of things that determine us.

Do i blame myself for my own actions, initially I do. I think that we are self-blaming creatures, when making mistakes i often look back, and wonder why i acted the way that i did , or question why i was so easily influenced or even manipulated. It is only years later, when looking back that i realise i was placed in a situation where for me there was only one outcome, one way i would react. It is then when i blame the "source". Often i look at other people, but it is often long gone when i realise how they affected me. I do not blame Satan because i dont believe in satan, or God or any religion. Not one part of me believes there is a magic man in the clouds, or a mysterious outside force that manipulates my actions. We are determined by others surrounding us, society, genes, the environment, and in-built evolutionary mechanisms that aid our survival, which can also be easily manipulated. : :

In short, you're telling me that you're blaming others for determining your life experiences but then you also mentioned blaming the source. What source are you talking about?
rcreynolds
Posts: 59
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8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.
uncung
Posts: 3,431
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8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see.
rcreynolds
Posts: 59
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8/28/2016 5:39:17 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/27/2016 11:56:12 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If you define determinism as the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes regarded as external to the will, I think the doctrine is illogical. I think that doctrine ultimately gives people a scapegoat ( god or devil or nature) to blame rather than taking responsibility for the decisions and action of their own will.
Obviously natural forces or outside influences can cause people to act or react instinctively in certain ways at time but there are still times when we make determined choices without any outside influence but simply because we do what our own mind inspires us to do like type on a computer or watch TV or go to a party or stay home etc etc.
Therefore I conclude that we have control over some things in our lives but not over everything because nature and circumstances are stronger than the human will. For example, we all die no matter how much we will to live.

Did you have the will power to create your own mind?



If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

I agree but as I said above, there are some things we can control with our will and others we cannot control. Both aspects exist in human lives.
Sometimes we can choose to do what we will do and other times we are forced into situations we would rather not be in.

Who forces us into situations we would rather not be in?

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

I personally take full responsibility for my own actions which I willingly choose. I take no responsibility for acts of nature which are forced upon me like my own birth and death.

Where do you think the forces of nature came from?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

I blame nature for the acts of nature. I blame other people for deliberate acts of their will. I blame no invisible gods or devils for anything. : :

Who made nature act in the way it does?
rcreynolds
Posts: 59
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8/28/2016 6:16:06 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see. : :

I will use an analogy to describe the difference between our body actions and the thoughts that enter our mind that make us believe we're in control of our body. I will use a horse to describe our body and our mind to describe the one riding or driving a horse.

It's typical to learn how to ride a horse by riding a well-trained horse. If you haven't ridden a horse before, you might have a little fear until you ride a well-trained horse. The one who trained the horse will have you sit on it and then give you instructions on how to make the horse go right, left, walk straight ahead, trot, run, back-up, and stop.

Once you've ridden a well-trained horse, you will feel like you were in total control of that horse because it did whatever you wanted it to do according to the horse trainer's techniques.

So think of living in a body that is doing whatever you want it to do. It appears well trained by the people you're surrounded by who have been giving you instructions how to live.

As you get older, the idea that you're in total control of your body changes because you become aware that you're body loves to do certain things that you were trained not to do. As your body craves these certain things, you become fearful of those who trained you not to do those certain things.

Let's say your body becomes totally addicted to alcohol and you were told by all the people that you grew up with that alcohol addiction is the worst addiction ever and that your live will become miserable if you drink alcohol.

When you first start drinking alcohol, it appears that you can control it. This may make you believe that those people you grew up with were wrong about alcohol and it's affects on your body.

Eventually, you notice that your body begins to crave alcohol and this is when your thoughts begin to confuse you. You were convinced that you were in control of alcohol before but now you're experiencing a lack of control. No matter how hard you try to control your alcohol intake, your body keeps pouring the alcohol into the mouth and it becomes a staggering body that's totally out of control by your confused thoughts.

Your body at this point is like a horse with a mind of it's own, meaning the horse you once thought you were in control of is now a wild horse that has never been trained. Those people you grew up with keep telling you that all you need to do is quit drinking alcohol and you will be in control again. These people that tell you to quit drinking alcohol think that it's your will power that controls your body but you will most likely know for sure at that point it has nothing to do will power.

Once you're in a body that craves alcohol all the time, like riding an uncontrollable horse, you will learn that you don't have any free will to control your body.

If you have never experienced your body being addicted to any drug, sex, or other experience that the body craves, you will not understand what I'm talking about. You will believe that you're in control of your body. Just like a horse rider who has never been on a wild horse.

So I ask you, do you ride the horse or do you drive the horse?
uncung
Posts: 3,431
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8/28/2016 6:20:55 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 6:16:06 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see. : :

I will use an analogy to describe the difference between our body actions and the thoughts that enter our mind that make us believe we're in control of our body. I will use a horse to describe our body and our mind to describe the one riding or driving a horse.

It's typical to learn how to ride a horse by riding a well-trained horse. If you haven't ridden a horse before, you might have a little fear until you ride a well-trained horse. The one who trained the horse will have you sit on it and then give you instructions on how to make the horse go right, left, walk straight ahead, trot, run, back-up, and stop.

Once you've ridden a well-trained horse, you will feel like you were in total control of that horse because it did whatever you wanted it to do according to the horse trainer's techniques.

So think of living in a body that is doing whatever you want it to do. It appears well trained by the people you're surrounded by who have been giving you instructions how to live.

As you get older, the idea that you're in total control of your body changes because you become aware that you're body loves to do certain things that you were trained not to do. As your body craves these certain things, you become fearful of those who trained you not to do those certain things.

Let's say your body becomes totally addicted to alcohol and you were told by all the people that you grew up with that alcohol addiction is the worst addiction ever and that your live will become miserable if you drink alcohol.

When you first start drinking alcohol, it appears that you can control it. This may make you believe that those people you grew up with were wrong about alcohol and it's affects on your body.

Eventually, you notice that your body begins to crave alcohol and this is when your thoughts begin to confuse you. You were convinced that you were in control of alcohol before but now you're experiencing a lack of control. No matter how hard you try to control your alcohol intake, your body keeps pouring the alcohol into the mouth and it becomes a staggering body that's totally out of control by your confused thoughts.

Your body at this point is like a horse with a mind of it's own, meaning the horse you once thought you were in control of is now a wild horse that has never been trained. Those people you grew up with keep telling you that all you need to do is quit drinking alcohol and you will be in control again. These people that tell you to quit drinking alcohol think that it's your will power that controls your body but you will most likely know for sure at that point it has nothing to do will power.

Once you're in a body that craves alcohol all the time, like riding an uncontrollable horse, you will learn that you don't have any free will to control your body.

If you have never experienced your body being addicted to any drug, sex, or other experience that the body craves, you will not understand what I'm talking about. You will believe that you're in control of your body. Just like a horse rider who has never been on a wild horse.

So I ask you, do you ride the horse or do you drive the horse?

I had never rode a horse nor drive it. Actually what does it have to do with determinism and free will? As I said no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,892
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8/28/2016 6:24:34 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
I said the DOCTRINE that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes regarded as external to the will, is illogical. The part about including human action is the illogical part because not ALL human action is determined by external causes.

You also said that 'if we define determinism as the doctrine.....' so you most certainly did say determinism (as defined by yourself) is illogical !

not ALL human action is determined by external causes.

You can't get away with just asserting that because not everyone agrees that is the case. You don't tell us why it must be so, yet you seem to assume it allow for moral responsibility. If you are stating a personal position, fine. But if I didn't more or less agree start with you to begin with I don't think I'd be convinced by the argument.
rcreynolds
Posts: 59
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8/28/2016 6:35:56 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 6:20:55 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:16:06 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see. : :

I will use an analogy to describe the difference between our body actions and the thoughts that enter our mind that make us believe we're in control of our body. I will use a horse to describe our body and our mind to describe the one riding or driving a horse.

It's typical to learn how to ride a horse by riding a well-trained horse. If you haven't ridden a horse before, you might have a little fear until you ride a well-trained horse. The one who trained the horse will have you sit on it and then give you instructions on how to make the horse go right, left, walk straight ahead, trot, run, back-up, and stop.

Once you've ridden a well-trained horse, you will feel like you were in total control of that horse because it did whatever you wanted it to do according to the horse trainer's techniques.

So think of living in a body that is doing whatever you want it to do. It appears well trained by the people you're surrounded by who have been giving you instructions how to live.

As you get older, the idea that you're in total control of your body changes because you become aware that you're body loves to do certain things that you were trained not to do. As your body craves these certain things, you become fearful of those who trained you not to do those certain things.

Let's say your body becomes totally addicted to alcohol and you were told by all the people that you grew up with that alcohol addiction is the worst addiction ever and that your live will become miserable if you drink alcohol.

When you first start drinking alcohol, it appears that you can control it. This may make you believe that those people you grew up with were wrong about alcohol and it's affects on your body.

Eventually, you notice that your body begins to crave alcohol and this is when your thoughts begin to confuse you. You were convinced that you were in control of alcohol before but now you're experiencing a lack of control. No matter how hard you try to control your alcohol intake, your body keeps pouring the alcohol into the mouth and it becomes a staggering body that's totally out of control by your confused thoughts.

Your body at this point is like a horse with a mind of it's own, meaning the horse you once thought you were in control of is now a wild horse that has never been trained. Those people you grew up with keep telling you that all you need to do is quit drinking alcohol and you will be in control again. These people that tell you to quit drinking alcohol think that it's your will power that controls your body but you will most likely know for sure at that point it has nothing to do will power.

Once you're in a body that craves alcohol all the time, like riding an uncontrollable horse, you will learn that you don't have any free will to control your body.

If you have never experienced your body being addicted to any drug, sex, or other experience that the body craves, you will not understand what I'm talking about. You will believe that you're in control of your body. Just like a horse rider who has never been on a wild horse.

So I ask you, do you ride the horse or do you drive the horse?

I had never rode a horse nor drive it. Actually what does it have to do with determinism and free will? As I said no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

You haven't lived a life that can help you understand that your thoughts are not controlling your body. That's why my analogy didn't make any sense to you. In other words, you will never understand anyone's teaching of determinism.
uncung
Posts: 3,431
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8/28/2016 6:49:49 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 6:35:56 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:20:55 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:16:06 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see. : :

I will use an analogy to describe the difference between our body actions and the thoughts that enter our mind that make us believe we're in control of our body. I will use a horse to describe our body and our mind to describe the one riding or driving a horse.

It's typical to learn how to ride a horse by riding a well-trained horse. If you haven't ridden a horse before, you might have a little fear until you ride a well-trained horse. The one who trained the horse will have you sit on it and then give you instructions on how to make the horse go right, left, walk straight ahead, trot, run, back-up, and stop.

Once you've ridden a well-trained horse, you will feel like you were in total control of that horse because it did whatever you wanted it to do according to the horse trainer's techniques.

So think of living in a body that is doing whatever you want it to do. It appears well trained by the people you're surrounded by who have been giving you instructions how to live.

As you get older, the idea that you're in total control of your body changes because you become aware that you're body loves to do certain things that you were trained not to do. As your body craves these certain things, you become fearful of those who trained you not to do those certain things.

Let's say your body becomes totally addicted to alcohol and you were told by all the people that you grew up with that alcohol addiction is the worst addiction ever and that your live will become miserable if you drink alcohol.

When you first start drinking alcohol, it appears that you can control it. This may make you believe that those people you grew up with were wrong about alcohol and it's affects on your body.

Eventually, you notice that your body begins to crave alcohol and this is when your thoughts begin to confuse you. You were convinced that you were in control of alcohol before but now you're experiencing a lack of control. No matter how hard you try to control your alcohol intake, your body keeps pouring the alcohol into the mouth and it becomes a staggering body that's totally out of control by your confused thoughts.

Your body at this point is like a horse with a mind of it's own, meaning the horse you once thought you were in control of is now a wild horse that has never been trained. Those people you grew up with keep telling you that all you need to do is quit drinking alcohol and you will be in control again. These people that tell you to quit drinking alcohol think that it's your will power that controls your body but you will most likely know for sure at that point it has nothing to do will power.

Once you're in a body that craves alcohol all the time, like riding an uncontrollable horse, you will learn that you don't have any free will to control your body.

If you have never experienced your body being addicted to any drug, sex, or other experience that the body craves, you will not understand what I'm talking about. You will believe that you're in control of your body. Just like a horse rider who has never been on a wild horse.

So I ask you, do you ride the horse or do you drive the horse?

I had never rode a horse nor drive it. Actually what does it have to do with determinism and free will? As I said no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

You haven't lived a life that can help you understand that your thoughts are not controlling your body. That's why my analogy didn't make any sense to you. In other words, you will never understand anyone's teaching of determinism.

so it is the proper explanation of determinism and free will? then you are failed.
rcreynolds
Posts: 59
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8/28/2016 6:59:19 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 6:49:49 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:35:56 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:20:55 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:16:06 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see. : :

I will use an analogy to describe the difference between our body actions and the thoughts that enter our mind that make us believe we're in control of our body. I will use a horse to describe our body and our mind to describe the one riding or driving a horse.

It's typical to learn how to ride a horse by riding a well-trained horse. If you haven't ridden a horse before, you might have a little fear until you ride a well-trained horse. The one who trained the horse will have you sit on it and then give you instructions on how to make the horse go right, left, walk straight ahead, trot, run, back-up, and stop.

Once you've ridden a well-trained horse, you will feel like you were in total control of that horse because it did whatever you wanted it to do according to the horse trainer's techniques.

So think of living in a body that is doing whatever you want it to do. It appears well trained by the people you're surrounded by who have been giving you instructions how to live.

As you get older, the idea that you're in total control of your body changes because you become aware that you're body loves to do certain things that you were trained not to do. As your body craves these certain things, you become fearful of those who trained you not to do those certain things.

Let's say your body becomes totally addicted to alcohol and you were told by all the people that you grew up with that alcohol addiction is the worst addiction ever and that your live will become miserable if you drink alcohol.

When you first start drinking alcohol, it appears that you can control it. This may make you believe that those people you grew up with were wrong about alcohol and it's affects on your body.

Eventually, you notice that your body begins to crave alcohol and this is when your thoughts begin to confuse you. You were convinced that you were in control of alcohol before but now you're experiencing a lack of control. No matter how hard you try to control your alcohol intake, your body keeps pouring the alcohol into the mouth and it becomes a staggering body that's totally out of control by your confused thoughts.

Your body at this point is like a horse with a mind of it's own, meaning the horse you once thought you were in control of is now a wild horse that has never been trained. Those people you grew up with keep telling you that all you need to do is quit drinking alcohol and you will be in control again. These people that tell you to quit drinking alcohol think that it's your will power that controls your body but you will most likely know for sure at that point it has nothing to do will power.

Once you're in a body that craves alcohol all the time, like riding an uncontrollable horse, you will learn that you don't have any free will to control your body.

If you have never experienced your body being addicted to any drug, sex, or other experience that the body craves, you will not understand what I'm talking about. You will believe that you're in control of your body. Just like a horse rider who has never been on a wild horse.

So I ask you, do you ride the horse or do you drive the horse?

I had never rode a horse nor drive it. Actually what does it have to do with determinism and free will? As I said no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

You haven't lived a life that can help you understand that your thoughts are not controlling your body. That's why my analogy didn't make any sense to you. In other words, you will never understand anyone's teaching of determinism.

so it is the proper explanation of determinism and free will? then you are failed. : :

You failed to understand and that was determined to happen by the one who determined everything that we experience.
uncung
Posts: 3,431
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8/28/2016 8:18:50 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 6:59:19 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:49:49 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:35:56 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:20:55 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:16:06 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see. : :

I will use an analogy to describe the difference between our body actions and the thoughts that enter our mind that make us believe we're in control of our body. I will use a horse to describe our body and our mind to describe the one riding or driving a horse.

It's typical to learn how to ride a horse by riding a well-trained horse. If you haven't ridden a horse before, you might have a little fear until you ride a well-trained horse. The one who trained the horse will have you sit on it and then give you instructions on how to make the horse go right, left, walk straight ahead, trot, run, back-up, and stop.

Once you've ridden a well-trained horse, you will feel like you were in total control of that horse because it did whatever you wanted it to do according to the horse trainer's techniques.

So think of living in a body that is doing whatever you want it to do. It appears well trained by the people you're surrounded by who have been giving you instructions how to live.

As you get older, the idea that you're in total control of your body changes because you become aware that you're body loves to do certain things that you were trained not to do. As your body craves these certain things, you become fearful of those who trained you not to do those certain things.

Let's say your body becomes totally addicted to alcohol and you were told by all the people that you grew up with that alcohol addiction is the worst addiction ever and that your live will become miserable if you drink alcohol.

When you first start drinking alcohol, it appears that you can control it. This may make you believe that those people you grew up with were wrong about alcohol and it's affects on your body.

Eventually, you notice that your body begins to crave alcohol and this is when your thoughts begin to confuse you. You were convinced that you were in control of alcohol before but now you're experiencing a lack of control. No matter how hard you try to control your alcohol intake, your body keeps pouring the alcohol into the mouth and it becomes a staggering body that's totally out of control by your confused thoughts.

Your body at this point is like a horse with a mind of it's own, meaning the horse you once thought you were in control of is now a wild horse that has never been trained. Those people you grew up with keep telling you that all you need to do is quit drinking alcohol and you will be in control again. These people that tell you to quit drinking alcohol think that it's your will power that controls your body but you will most likely know for sure at that point it has nothing to do will power.

Once you're in a body that craves alcohol all the time, like riding an uncontrollable horse, you will learn that you don't have any free will to control your body.

If you have never experienced your body being addicted to any drug, sex, or other experience that the body craves, you will not understand what I'm talking about. You will believe that you're in control of your body. Just like a horse rider who has never been on a wild horse.

So I ask you, do you ride the horse or do you drive the horse?

I had never rode a horse nor drive it. Actually what does it have to do with determinism and free will? As I said no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

You haven't lived a life that can help you understand that your thoughts are not controlling your body. That's why my analogy didn't make any sense to you. In other words, you will never understand anyone's teaching of determinism.

so it is the proper explanation of determinism and free will? then you are failed. : :

You failed to understand and that was determined to happen by the one who determined everything that we experience.

so the determinism depends on our experience?
rcreynolds
Posts: 59
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8/28/2016 8:38:34 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 8:18:50 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:59:19 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:49:49 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:35:56 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:20:55 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:16:06 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see. : :

I will use an analogy to describe the difference between our body actions and the thoughts that enter our mind that make us believe we're in control of our body. I will use a horse to describe our body and our mind to describe the one riding or driving a horse.

It's typical to learn how to ride a horse by riding a well-trained horse. If you haven't ridden a horse before, you might have a little fear until you ride a well-trained horse. The one who trained the horse will have you sit on it and then give you instructions on how to make the horse go right, left, walk straight ahead, trot, run, back-up, and stop.

Once you've ridden a well-trained horse, you will feel like you were in total control of that horse because it did whatever you wanted it to do according to the horse trainer's techniques.

So think of living in a body that is doing whatever you want it to do. It appears well trained by the people you're surrounded by who have been giving you instructions how to live.

As you get older, the idea that you're in total control of your body changes because you become aware that you're body loves to do certain things that you were trained not to do. As your body craves these certain things, you become fearful of those who trained you not to do those certain things.

Let's say your body becomes totally addicted to alcohol and you were told by all the people that you grew up with that alcohol addiction is the worst addiction ever and that your live will become miserable if you drink alcohol.

When you first start drinking alcohol, it appears that you can control it. This may make you believe that those people you grew up with were wrong about alcohol and it's affects on your body.

Eventually, you notice that your body begins to crave alcohol and this is when your thoughts begin to confuse you. You were convinced that you were in control of alcohol before but now you're experiencing a lack of control. No matter how hard you try to control your alcohol intake, your body keeps pouring the alcohol into the mouth and it becomes a staggering body that's totally out of control by your confused thoughts.

Your body at this point is like a horse with a mind of it's own, meaning the horse you once thought you were in control of is now a wild horse that has never been trained. Those people you grew up with keep telling you that all you need to do is quit drinking alcohol and you will be in control again. These people that tell you to quit drinking alcohol think that it's your will power that controls your body but you will most likely know for sure at that point it has nothing to do will power.

Once you're in a body that craves alcohol all the time, like riding an uncontrollable horse, you will learn that you don't have any free will to control your body.

If you have never experienced your body being addicted to any drug, sex, or other experience that the body craves, you will not understand what I'm talking about. You will believe that you're in control of your body. Just like a horse rider who has never been on a wild horse.

So I ask you, do you ride the horse or do you drive the horse?

I had never rode a horse nor drive it. Actually what does it have to do with determinism and free will? As I said no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

You haven't lived a life that can help you understand that your thoughts are not controlling your body. That's why my analogy didn't make any sense to you. In other words, you will never understand anyone's teaching of determinism.

so it is the proper explanation of determinism and free will? then you are failed. : :

You failed to understand and that was determined to happen by the one who determined everything that we experience.

so the determinism depends on our experience? : :

No. Some people's experience can lead them to believe that their lives were determined by something outside of their experiences. Those of us who had to listen to the source of all life experiences learn that everything we experience was planned.
uncung
Posts: 3,431
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8/28/2016 8:49:15 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 8:38:34 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:18:50 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:59:19 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:49:49 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:35:56 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:20:55 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:16:06 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see. : :

I will use an analogy to describe the difference between our body actions and the thoughts that enter our mind that make us believe we're in control of our body. I will use a horse to describe our body and our mind to describe the one riding or driving a horse.

It's typical to learn how to ride a horse by riding a well-trained horse. If you haven't ridden a horse before, you might have a little fear until you ride a well-trained horse. The one who trained the horse will have you sit on it and then give you instructions on how to make the horse go right, left, walk straight ahead, trot, run, back-up, and stop.

Once you've ridden a well-trained horse, you will feel like you were in total control of that horse because it did whatever you wanted it to do according to the horse trainer's techniques.

So think of living in a body that is doing whatever you want it to do. It appears well trained by the people you're surrounded by who have been giving you instructions how to live.

As you get older, the idea that you're in total control of your body changes because you become aware that you're body loves to do certain things that you were trained not to do. As your body craves these certain things, you become fearful of those who trained you not to do those certain things.

Let's say your body becomes totally addicted to alcohol and you were told by all the people that you grew up with that alcohol addiction is the worst addiction ever and that your live will become miserable if you drink alcohol.

When you first start drinking alcohol, it appears that you can control it. This may make you believe that those people you grew up with were wrong about alcohol and it's affects on your body.

Eventually, you notice that your body begins to crave alcohol and this is when your thoughts begin to confuse you. You were convinced that you were in control of alcohol before but now you're experiencing a lack of control. No matter how hard you try to control your alcohol intake, your body keeps pouring the alcohol into the mouth and it becomes a staggering body that's totally out of control by your confused thoughts.

Your body at this point is like a horse with a mind of it's own, meaning the horse you once thought you were in control of is now a wild horse that has never been trained. Those people you grew up with keep telling you that all you need to do is quit drinking alcohol and you will be in control again. These people that tell you to quit drinking alcohol think that it's your will power that controls your body but you will most likely know for sure at that point it has nothing to do will power.

Once you're in a body that craves alcohol all the time, like riding an uncontrollable horse, you will learn that you don't have any free will to control your body.

If you have never experienced your body being addicted to any drug, sex, or other experience that the body craves, you will not understand what I'm talking about. You will believe that you're in control of your body. Just like a horse rider who has never been on a wild horse.

So I ask you, do you ride the horse or do you drive the horse?

I had never rode a horse nor drive it. Actually what does it have to do with determinism and free will? As I said no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

You haven't lived a life that can help you understand that your thoughts are not controlling your body. That's why my analogy didn't make any sense to you. In other words, you will never understand anyone's teaching of determinism.

so it is the proper explanation of determinism and free will? then you are failed. : :

You failed to understand and that was determined to happen by the one who determined everything that we experience.

so the determinism depends on our experience? : :

No. Some people's experience can lead them to believe that their lives were determined by something outside of their experiences. Those of us who had to listen to the source of all life experiences learn that everything we experience was planned.

if everything we experience was planned then can we avoid that determined plan?
rcreynolds
Posts: 59
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8/28/2016 8:57:29 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 8:49:15 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:38:34 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:18:50 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:59:19 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:49:49 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:35:56 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:20:55 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:16:06 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see. : :

I will use an analogy to describe the difference between our body actions and the thoughts that enter our mind that make us believe we're in control of our body. I will use a horse to describe our body and our mind to describe the one riding or driving a horse.

It's typical to learn how to ride a horse by riding a well-trained horse. If you haven't ridden a horse before, you might have a little fear until you ride a well-trained horse. The one who trained the horse will have you sit on it and then give you instructions on how to make the horse go right, left, walk straight ahead, trot, run, back-up, and stop.

Once you've ridden a well-trained horse, you will feel like you were in total control of that horse because it did whatever you wanted it to do according to the horse trainer's techniques.

So think of living in a body that is doing whatever you want it to do. It appears well trained by the people you're surrounded by who have been giving you instructions how to live.

As you get older, the idea that you're in total control of your body changes because you become aware that you're body loves to do certain things that you were trained not to do. As your body craves these certain things, you become fearful of those who trained you not to do those certain things.

Let's say your body becomes totally addicted to alcohol and you were told by all the people that you grew up with that alcohol addiction is the worst addiction ever and that your live will become miserable if you drink alcohol.

When you first start drinking alcohol, it appears that you can control it. This may make you believe that those people you grew up with were wrong about alcohol and it's affects on your body.

Eventually, you notice that your body begins to crave alcohol and this is when your thoughts begin to confuse you. You were convinced that you were in control of alcohol before but now you're experiencing a lack of control. No matter how hard you try to control your alcohol intake, your body keeps pouring the alcohol into the mouth and it becomes a staggering body that's totally out of control by your confused thoughts.

Your body at this point is like a horse with a mind of it's own, meaning the horse you once thought you were in control of is now a wild horse that has never been trained. Those people you grew up with keep telling you that all you need to do is quit drinking alcohol and you will be in control again. These people that tell you to quit drinking alcohol think that it's your will power that controls your body but you will most likely know for sure at that point it has nothing to do will power.

Once you're in a body that craves alcohol all the time, like riding an uncontrollable horse, you will learn that you don't have any free will to control your body.

If you have never experienced your body being addicted to any drug, sex, or other experience that the body craves, you will not understand what I'm talking about. You will believe that you're in control of your body. Just like a horse rider who has never been on a wild horse.

So I ask you, do you ride the horse or do you drive the horse?

I had never rode a horse nor drive it. Actually what does it have to do with determinism and free will? As I said no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

You haven't lived a life that can help you understand that your thoughts are not controlling your body. That's why my analogy didn't make any sense to you. In other words, you will never understand anyone's teaching of determinism.

so it is the proper explanation of determinism and free will? then you are failed. : :

You failed to understand and that was determined to happen by the one who determined everything that we experience.

so the determinism depends on our experience? : :

No. Some people's experience can lead them to believe that their lives were determined by something outside of their experiences. Those of us who had to listen to the source of all life experiences learn that everything we experience was planned.

if everything we experience was planned then can we avoid that determined plan? : :

None of us can escape the determined death of our bodies or the fact that we will continue experiencing life after that determined death of our body. We won't be able to escape the fact that we will wake up in different bodies after experiencing the death of our bodies, either.
uncung
Posts: 3,431
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8/28/2016 9:39:33 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 8:57:29 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:49:15 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:38:34 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:18:50 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:59:19 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:49:49 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:35:56 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:20:55 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:16:06 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see. : :

I will use an analogy to describe the difference between our body actions and the thoughts that enter our mind that make us believe we're in control of our body. I will use a horse to describe our body and our mind to describe the one riding or driving a horse.

It's typical to learn how to ride a horse by riding a well-trained horse. If you haven't ridden a horse before, you might have a little fear until you ride a well-trained horse. The one who trained the horse will have you sit on it and then give you instructions on how to make the horse go right, left, walk straight ahead, trot, run, back-up, and stop.

Once you've ridden a well-trained horse, you will feel like you were in total control of that horse because it did whatever you wanted it to do according to the horse trainer's techniques.

So think of living in a body that is doing whatever you want it to do. It appears well trained by the people you're surrounded by who have been giving you instructions how to live.

As you get older, the idea that you're in total control of your body changes because you become aware that you're body loves to do certain things that you were trained not to do. As your body craves these certain things, you become fearful of those who trained you not to do those certain things.

Let's say your body becomes totally addicted to alcohol and you were told by all the people that you grew up with that alcohol addiction is the worst addiction ever and that your live will become miserable if you drink alcohol.

When you first start drinking alcohol, it appears that you can control it. This may make you believe that those people you grew up with were wrong about alcohol and it's affects on your body.

Eventually, you notice that your body begins to crave alcohol and this is when your thoughts begin to confuse you. You were convinced that you were in control of alcohol before but now you're experiencing a lack of control. No matter how hard you try to control your alcohol intake, your body keeps pouring the alcohol into the mouth and it becomes a staggering body that's totally out of control by your confused thoughts.

Your body at this point is like a horse with a mind of it's own, meaning the horse you once thought you were in control of is now a wild horse that has never been trained. Those people you grew up with keep telling you that all you need to do is quit drinking alcohol and you will be in control again. These people that tell you to quit drinking alcohol think that it's your will power that controls your body but you will most likely know for sure at that point it has nothing to do will power.

Once you're in a body that craves alcohol all the time, like riding an uncontrollable horse, you will learn that you don't have any free will to control your body.

If you have never experienced your body being addicted to any drug, sex, or other experience that the body craves, you will not understand what I'm talking about. You will believe that you're in control of your body. Just like a horse rider who has never been on a wild horse.

So I ask you, do you ride the horse or do you drive the horse?

I had never rode a horse nor drive it. Actually what does it have to do with determinism and free will? As I said no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

You haven't lived a life that can help you understand that your thoughts are not controlling your body. That's why my analogy didn't make any sense to you. In other words, you will never understand anyone's teaching of determinism.

so it is the proper explanation of determinism and free will? then you are failed. : :

You failed to understand and that was determined to happen by the one who determined everything that we experience.

so the determinism depends on our experience? : :

No. Some people's experience can lead them to believe that their lives were determined by something outside of their experiences. Those of us who had to listen to the source of all life experiences learn that everything we experience was planned.

if everything we experience was planned then can we avoid that determined plan? : :

None of us can escape the determined death of our bodies or the fact that we will continue experiencing life after that determined death of our body. We won't be able to escape the fact that we will wake up in different bodies after experiencing the death of our bodies, either.

Then free will has no place to begin with since we cannot escape the determined things.
rcreynolds
Posts: 59
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8/28/2016 10:17:22 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 9:39:33 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:57:29 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:49:15 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:38:34 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:18:50 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:59:19 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:49:49 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:35:56 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:20:55 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:16:06 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see. : :

I will use an analogy to describe the difference between our body actions and the thoughts that enter our mind that make us believe we're in control of our body. I will use a horse to describe our body and our mind to describe the one riding or driving a horse.

It's typical to learn how to ride a horse by riding a well-trained horse. If you haven't ridden a horse before, you might have a little fear until you ride a well-trained horse. The one who trained the horse will have you sit on it and then give you instructions on how to make the horse go right, left, walk straight ahead, trot, run, back-up, and stop.

Once you've ridden a well-trained horse, you will feel like you were in total control of that horse because it did whatever you wanted it to do according to the horse trainer's techniques.

So think of living in a body that is doing whatever you want it to do. It appears well trained by the people you're surrounded by who have been giving you instructions how to live.

As you get older, the idea that you're in total control of your body changes because you become aware that you're body loves to do certain things that you were trained not to do. As your body craves these certain things, you become fearful of those who trained you not to do those certain things.

Let's say your body becomes totally addicted to alcohol and you were told by all the people that you grew up with that alcohol addiction is the worst addiction ever and that your live will become miserable if you drink alcohol.

When you first start drinking alcohol, it appears that you can control it. This may make you believe that those people you grew up with were wrong about alcohol and it's affects on your body.

Eventually, you notice that your body begins to crave alcohol and this is when your thoughts begin to confuse you. You were convinced that you were in control of alcohol before but now you're experiencing a lack of control. No matter how hard you try to control your alcohol intake, your body keeps pouring the alcohol into the mouth and it becomes a staggering body that's totally out of control by your confused thoughts.

Your body at this point is like a horse with a mind of it's own, meaning the horse you once thought you were in control of is now a wild horse that has never been trained. Those people you grew up with keep telling you that all you need to do is quit drinking alcohol and you will be in control again. These people that tell you to quit drinking alcohol think that it's your will power that controls your body but you will most likely know for sure at that point it has nothing to do will power.

Once you're in a body that craves alcohol all the time, like riding an uncontrollable horse, you will learn that you don't have any free will to control your body.

If you have never experienced your body being addicted to any drug, sex, or other experience that the body craves, you will not understand what I'm talking about. You will believe that you're in control of your body. Just like a horse rider who has never been on a wild horse.

So I ask you, do you ride the horse or do you drive the horse?

I had never rode a horse nor drive it. Actually what does it have to do with determinism and free will? As I said no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

You haven't lived a life that can help you understand that your thoughts are not controlling your body. That's why my analogy didn't make any sense to you. In other words, you will never understand anyone's teaching of determinism.

so it is the proper explanation of determinism and free will? then you are failed. : :

You failed to understand and that was determined to happen by the one who determined everything that we experience.

so the determinism depends on our experience? : :

No. Some people's experience can lead them to believe that their lives were determined by something outside of their experiences. Those of us who had to listen to the source of all life experiences learn that everything we experience was planned.

if everything we experience was planned then can we avoid that determined plan? : :

None of us can escape the determined death of our bodies or the fact that we will continue experiencing life after that determined death of our body. We won't be able to escape the fact that we will wake up in different bodies after experiencing the death of our bodies, either.

Then free will has no place to begin with since we cannot escape the determined things. : :

The free will idea was first believed by religious people who believed they have to choose their gods. They had no idea that the Creator planned their lives to make them believe they had to choose their gods. Everything that we experience was very well planned before those thoughts were spoken into a program that we're all experiencing as it's played out.
uncung
Posts: 3,431
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8/28/2016 10:19:42 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 10:17:22 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 9:39:33 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:57:29 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:49:15 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:38:34 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:18:50 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:59:19 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:49:49 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:35:56 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:20:55 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:16:06 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see. : :

I will use an analogy to describe the difference between our body actions and the thoughts that enter our mind that make us believe we're in control of our body. I will use a horse to describe our body and our mind to describe the one riding or driving a horse.

It's typical to learn how to ride a horse by riding a well-trained horse. If you haven't ridden a horse before, you might have a little fear until you ride a well-trained horse. The one who trained the horse will have you sit on it and then give you instructions on how to make the horse go right, left, walk straight ahead, trot, run, back-up, and stop.

Once you've ridden a well-trained horse, you will feel like you were in total control of that horse because it did whatever you wanted it to do according to the horse trainer's techniques.

So think of living in a body that is doing whatever you want it to do. It appears well trained by the people you're surrounded by who have been giving you instructions how to live.

As you get older, the idea that you're in total control of your body changes because you become aware that you're body loves to do certain things that you were trained not to do. As your body craves these certain things, you become fearful of those who trained you not to do those certain things.

Let's say your body becomes totally addicted to alcohol and you were told by all the people that you grew up with that alcohol addiction is the worst addiction ever and that your live will become miserable if you drink alcohol.

When you first start drinking alcohol, it appears that you can control it. This may make you believe that those people you grew up with were wrong about alcohol and it's affects on your body.

Eventually, you notice that your body begins to crave alcohol and this is when your thoughts begin to confuse you. You were convinced that you were in control of alcohol before but now you're experiencing a lack of control. No matter how hard you try to control your alcohol intake, your body keeps pouring the alcohol into the mouth and it becomes a staggering body that's totally out of control by your confused thoughts.

Your body at this point is like a horse with a mind of it's own, meaning the horse you once thought you were in control of is now a wild horse that has never been trained. Those people you grew up with keep telling you that all you need to do is quit drinking alcohol and you will be in control again. These people that tell you to quit drinking alcohol think that it's your will power that controls your body but you will most likely know for sure at that point it has nothing to do will power.

Once you're in a body that craves alcohol all the time, like riding an uncontrollable horse, you will learn that you don't have any free will to control your body.

If you have never experienced your body being addicted to any drug, sex, or other experience that the body craves, you will not understand what I'm talking about. You will believe that you're in control of your body. Just like a horse rider who has never been on a wild horse.

So I ask you, do you ride the horse or do you drive the horse?

I had never rode a horse nor drive it. Actually what does it have to do with determinism and free will? As I said no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

You haven't lived a life that can help you understand that your thoughts are not controlling your body. That's why my analogy didn't make any sense to you. In other words, you will never understand anyone's teaching of determinism.

so it is the proper explanation of determinism and free will? then you are failed. : :

You failed to understand and that was determined to happen by the one who determined everything that we experience.

so the determinism depends on our experience? : :

No. Some people's experience can lead them to believe that their lives were determined by something outside of their experiences. Those of us who had to listen to the source of all life experiences learn that everything we experience was planned.

if everything we experience was planned then can we avoid that determined plan? : :

None of us can escape the determined death of our bodies or the fact that we will continue experiencing life after that determined death of our body. We won't be able to escape the fact that we will wake up in different bodies after experiencing the death of our bodies, either.

Then free will has no place to begin with since we cannot escape the determined things. : :

The free will idea was first believed by religious people who believed they have to choose their gods. They had no idea that the Creator planned their lives to make them believe they had to choose their gods. Everything that we experience was very well planned before those thoughts were spoken into a program that we're all experiencing as it's played out.

you imply there is no free will.
rcreynolds
Posts: 59
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8/28/2016 10:21:51 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 10:19:42 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 10:17:22 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 9:39:33 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:57:29 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:49:15 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:38:34 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:18:50 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:59:19 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:49:49 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:35:56 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:20:55 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:16:06 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see. : :

I will use an analogy to describe the difference between our body actions and the thoughts that enter our mind that make us believe we're in control of our body. I will use a horse to describe our body and our mind to describe the one riding or driving a horse.

It's typical to learn how to ride a horse by riding a well-trained horse. If you haven't ridden a horse before, you might have a little fear until you ride a well-trained horse. The one who trained the horse will have you sit on it and then give you instructions on how to make the horse go right, left, walk straight ahead, trot, run, back-up, and stop.

Once you've ridden a well-trained horse, you will feel like you were in total control of that horse because it did whatever you wanted it to do according to the horse trainer's techniques.

So think of living in a body that is doing whatever you want it to do. It appears well trained by the people you're surrounded by who have been giving you instructions how to live.

As you get older, the idea that you're in total control of your body changes because you become aware that you're body loves to do certain things that you were trained not to do. As your body craves these certain things, you become fearful of those who trained you not to do those certain things.

Let's say your body becomes totally addicted to alcohol and you were told by all the people that you grew up with that alcohol addiction is the worst addiction ever and that your live will become miserable if you drink alcohol.

When you first start drinking alcohol, it appears that you can control it. This may make you believe that those people you grew up with were wrong about alcohol and it's affects on your body.

Eventually, you notice that your body begins to crave alcohol and this is when your thoughts begin to confuse you. You were convinced that you were in control of alcohol before but now you're experiencing a lack of control. No matter how hard you try to control your alcohol intake, your body keeps pouring the alcohol into the mouth and it becomes a staggering body that's totally out of control by your confused thoughts.

Your body at this point is like a horse with a mind of it's own, meaning the horse you once thought you were in control of is now a wild horse that has never been trained. Those people you grew up with keep telling you that all you need to do is quit drinking alcohol and you will be in control again. These people that tell you to quit drinking alcohol think that it's your will power that controls your body but you will most likely know for sure at that point it has nothing to do will power.

Once you're in a body that craves alcohol all the time, like riding an uncontrollable horse, you will learn that you don't have any free will to control your body.

If you have never experienced your body being addicted to any drug, sex, or other experience that the body craves, you will not understand what I'm talking about. You will believe that you're in control of your body. Just like a horse rider who has never been on a wild horse.

So I ask you, do you ride the horse or do you drive the horse?

I had never rode a horse nor drive it. Actually what does it have to do with determinism and free will? As I said no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

You haven't lived a life that can help you understand that your thoughts are not controlling your body. That's why my analogy didn't make any sense to you. In other words, you will never understand anyone's teaching of determinism.

so it is the proper explanation of determinism and free will? then you are failed. : :

You failed to understand and that was determined to happen by the one who determined everything that we experience.

so the determinism depends on our experience? : :

No. Some people's experience can lead them to believe that their lives were determined by something outside of their experiences. Those of us who had to listen to the source of all life experiences learn that everything we experience was planned.

if everything we experience was planned then can we avoid that determined plan? : :

None of us can escape the determined death of our bodies or the fact that we will continue experiencing life after that determined death of our body. We won't be able to escape the fact that we will wake up in different bodies after experiencing the death of our bodies, either.

Then free will has no place to begin with since we cannot escape the determined things. : :

The free will idea was first believed by religious people who believed they have to choose their gods. They had no idea that the Creator planned their lives to make them believe they had to choose their gods. Everything that we experience was very well planned before those thoughts were spoken into a program that we're all experiencing as it's played out.

you imply there is no free will. : :

I know the source that is used to process information into our life experiences. It's impossible that we are experiencing "free will".
uncung
Posts: 3,431
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8/28/2016 10:36:52 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 10:21:51 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 10:19:42 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 10:17:22 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 9:39:33 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:57:29 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:49:15 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:38:34 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 8:18:50 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:59:19 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:49:49 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:35:56 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:20:55 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 6:16:06 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:29:52 AM, uncung wrote:
At 8/28/2016 5:28:16 AM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/27/2016 11:34:03 PM, uncung wrote:
At 8/27/2016 3:24:41 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
If determinism is true, then morality has to be a non-issue.

If free will is true, then each person is responsible for his actions.

Do you blame the source who determined your life or do you blame yourself for your own actions?

Do you blame other people or Satan for your actions?

Both do exist. However no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

I can explain it properly but it takes belief on your part to understand it.

you can't, or explain it then. let see. : :

I will use an analogy to describe the difference between our body actions and the thoughts that enter our mind that make us believe we're in control of our body. I will use a horse to describe our body and our mind to describe the one riding or driving a horse.

It's typical to learn how to ride a horse by riding a well-trained horse. If you haven't ridden a horse before, you might have a little fear until you ride a well-trained horse. The one who trained the horse will have you sit on it and then give you instructions on how to make the horse go right, left, walk straight ahead, trot, run, back-up, and stop.

Once you've ridden a well-trained horse, you will feel like you were in total control of that horse because it did whatever you wanted it to do according to the horse trainer's techniques.

So think of living in a body that is doing whatever you want it to do. It appears well trained by the people you're surrounded by who have been giving you instructions how to live.

As you get older, the idea that you're in total control of your body changes because you become aware that you're body loves to do certain things that you were trained not to do. As your body craves these certain things, you become fearful of those who trained you not to do those certain things.

Let's say your body becomes totally addicted to alcohol and you were told by all the people that you grew up with that alcohol addiction is the worst addiction ever and that your live will become miserable if you drink alcohol.

When you first start drinking alcohol, it appears that you can control it. This may make you believe that those people you grew up with were wrong about alcohol and it's affects on your body.

Eventually, you notice that your body begins to crave alcohol and this is when your thoughts begin to confuse you. You were convinced that you were in control of alcohol before but now you're experiencing a lack of control. No matter how hard you try to control your alcohol intake, your body keeps pouring the alcohol into the mouth and it becomes a staggering body that's totally out of control by your confused thoughts.

Your body at this point is like a horse with a mind of it's own, meaning the horse you once thought you were in control of is now a wild horse that has never been trained. Those people you grew up with keep telling you that all you need to do is quit drinking alcohol and you will be in control again. These people that tell you to quit drinking alcohol think that it's your will power that controls your body but you will most likely know for sure at that point it has nothing to do will power.

Once you're in a body that craves alcohol all the time, like riding an uncontrollable horse, you will learn that you don't have any free will to control your body.

If you have never experienced your body being addicted to any drug, sex, or other experience that the body craves, you will not understand what I'm talking about. You will believe that you're in control of your body. Just like a horse rider who has never been on a wild horse.

So I ask you, do you ride the horse or do you drive the horse?

I had never rode a horse nor drive it. Actually what does it have to do with determinism and free will? As I said no one able to explain the overlapping between the two properly. : :

You haven't lived a life that can help you understand that your thoughts are not controlling your body. That's why my analogy didn't make any sense to you. In other words, you will never understand anyone's teaching of determinism.

so it is the proper explanation of determinism and free will? then you are failed. : :

You failed to understand and that was determined to happen by the one who determined everything that we experience.

so the determinism depends on our experience? : :

No. Some people's experience can lead them to believe that their lives were determined by something outside of their experiences. Those of us who had to listen to the source of all life experiences learn that everything we experience was planned.

if everything we experience was planned then can we avoid that determined plan? : :

None of us can escape the determined death of our bodies or the fact that we will continue experiencing life after that determined death of our body. We won't be able to escape the fact that we will wake up in different bodies after experiencing the death of our bodies, either.

Then free will has no place to begin with since we cannot escape the determined things. : :

The free will idea was first believed by religious people who believed they have to choose their gods. They had no idea that the Creator planned their lives to make them believe they had to choose their gods. Everything that we experience was very well planned before those thoughts were spoken into a program that we're all experiencing as it's played out.

you imply there is no free will. : :

I know the source that is used to process information into our life experiences. It's impossible that we are experiencing "free wi
uncung
Posts: 3,431
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8/28/2016 10:37:32 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
you imply there is no free will. : :

I know the source that is used to process information into our life experiences. It's impossible that we are experiencing "free will".

case is closed.
rcreynolds
Posts: 59
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8/28/2016 11:27:17 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 10:37:32 AM, uncung wrote:
you imply there is no free will. : :

I know the source that is used to process information into our life experiences. It's impossible that we are experiencing "free will".

case is closed. : :

For you it is. For those who believe their lives are determined, they will continue in their beliefs until their determined death of their bodies.