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Escapism and Religion

s-anthony
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8/28/2016 12:05:38 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
One way in which we use our imaginations is a means of escape, and religion, for the most part, is a product not of science but of the imagination. Science demands proof; religion demands faith in things which cannot be proven. So, faith is a mechanism of escape from the struggles of reality to the realms of our imaginations. To illustrate, instead of turning to mind-altering drugs to escape the thoughts of an unfavorable history, the penitent escapes his, or her, dark side by the light of absolution. Another way in which religious adherents escape reality is by belief in God's immanency, believing they are never alone. Loneliness is a very real phenomenon which many people find unbearable; some people escape feelings of loneliness by the use of drugs; some people escape through dissociative identities; and, some, like St. John the Divine in exile on the Isle of Patmos or the early Desert Fathers, escape through ecstasy, prophetic exaltation, or visions.

Using religion as a drug or as Karl Marx said, "...the opium of the people," may seem to lead to escapism, a condition, like chronic drug abuse, which could be pathological. However, without some measure of escapism, I believe it would be impossible for us to discover our individual souls, the centers of our imaginations. It is religion which allows us a boon from the gods, a moment of escape from our present reality into a magical world which defies the unforgivable nature of the universe.

It is this retreat which empowers us to see not things as they are but as they could be; for, being locked into a particular paradigm, no matter its reality, cripples and impedes our evolution as a species. The current paradigm can only tell us the way things are; it cannot tell us the innumerable ways in which they could be. Science speaks of facts, not beliefs, possibilities, not impossibilities; it gives us a world common to all people, a world of objectivity. Faith allows us to believe in impossible realities which are created by our imaginations; it allows each of us to see things from a perspective which is unique and sacred; it allows us to imprint, each, his, or her, characteristic spirit on a blind and heedless world.
rcreynolds
Posts: 59
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8/28/2016 1:08:06 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 12:05:38 PM, s-anthony wrote:
One way in which we use our imaginations is a means of escape, and religion, for the most part, is a product not of science but of the imagination. Science demands proof; religion demands faith in things which cannot be proven. So, faith is a mechanism of escape from the struggles of reality to the realms of our imaginations. To illustrate, instead of turning to mind-altering drugs to escape the thoughts of an unfavorable history, the penitent escapes his, or her, dark side by the light of absolution. Another way in which religious adherents escape reality is by belief in God's immanency, believing they are never alone. Loneliness is a very real phenomenon which many people find unbearable; some people escape feelings of loneliness by the use of drugs; some people escape through dissociative identities; and, some, like St. John the Divine in exile on the Isle of Patmos or the early Desert Fathers, escape through ecstasy, prophetic exaltation, or visions.

Using religion as a drug or as Karl Marx said, "...the opium of the people," may seem to lead to escapism, a condition, like chronic drug abuse, which could be pathological. However, without some measure of escapism, I believe it would be impossible for us to discover our individual souls, the centers of our imaginations. It is religion which allows us a boon from the gods, a moment of escape from our present reality into a magical world which defies the unforgivable nature of the universe.

It is this retreat which empowers us to see not things as they are but as they could be; for, being locked into a particular paradigm, no matter its reality, cripples and impedes our evolution as a species. The current paradigm can only tell us the way things are; it cannot tell us the innumerable ways in which they could be. Science speaks of facts, not beliefs, possibilities, not impossibilities; it gives us a world common to all people, a world of objectivity. Faith allows us to believe in impossible realities which are created by our imaginations; it allows each of us to see things from a perspective which is unique and sacred; it allows us to imprint, each, his, or her, characteristic spirit on a blind and heedless world. : :

Imagination and science came from the same exact source. Scientists imagine all sorts of things while they're testing and experimenting and trying to explain their results with the language of mathematics. They are more confused now than they've ever been.
Willows
Posts: 2,068
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8/28/2016 1:22:01 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 12:05:38 PM, s-anthony wrote:
One way in which we use our imaginations is a means of escape, and religion, for the most part, is a product not of science but of the imagination. Science demands proof; religion demands faith in things which cannot be proven. So, faith is a mechanism of escape from the struggles of reality to the realms of our imaginations. To illustrate, instead of turning to mind-altering drugs to escape the thoughts of an unfavorable history, the penitent escapes his, or her, dark side by the light of absolution. Another way in which religious adherents escape reality is by belief in God's immanency, believing they are never alone. Loneliness is a very real phenomenon which many people find unbearable; some people escape feelings of loneliness by the use of drugs; some people escape through dissociative identities; and, some, like St. John the Divine in exile on the Isle of Patmos or the early Desert Fathers, escape through ecstasy, prophetic exaltation, or visions.

Using religion as a drug or as Karl Marx said, "...the opium of the people," may seem to lead to escapism, a condition, like chronic drug abuse, which could be pathological. However, without some measure of escapism, I believe it would be impossible for us to discover our individual souls, the centers of our imaginations. It is religion which allows us a boon from the gods, a moment of escape from our present reality into a magical world which defies the unforgivable nature of the universe.

It is this retreat which empowers us to see not things as they are but as they could be; for, being locked into a particular paradigm, no matter its reality, cripples and impedes our evolution as a species. The current paradigm can only tell us the way things are; it cannot tell us the innumerable ways in which they could be. Science speaks of facts, not beliefs, possibilities, not impossibilities; it gives us a world common to all people, a world of objectivity. Faith allows us to believe in impossible realities which are created by our imaginations; it allows each of us to see things from a perspective which is unique and sacred; it allows us to imprint, each, his, or her, characteristic spirit on a blind and heedless world.

Quite well put. We all need an escape, for me it is music, others may be art, even sport.

Sure, religion offers consolation and an escape for some and indeed can be a channel for creativity.
I am however vehemently opposed to organised religion in that it cruelly exploits the vulnerability of others by enforcing its agnda through fear and guilt.
Willows
Posts: 2,068
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8/28/2016 1:34:55 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 1:08:06 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 12:05:38 PM, s-anthony wrote:
One way in which we use our imaginations is a means of escape, and religion, for the most part, is a product not of science but of the imagination. Science demands proof; religion demands faith in things which cannot be proven. So, faith is a mechanism of escape from the struggles of reality to the realms of our imaginations. To illustrate, instead of turning to mind-altering drugs to escape the thoughts of an unfavorable history, the penitent escapes his, or her, dark side by the light of absolution. Another way in which religious adherents escape reality is by belief in God's immanency, believing they are never alone. Loneliness is a very real phenomenon which many people find unbearable; some people escape feelings of loneliness by the use of drugs; some people escape through dissociative identities; and, some, like St. John the Divine in exile on the Isle of Patmos or the early Desert Fathers, escape through ecstasy, prophetic exaltation, or visions.

Using religion as a drug or as Karl Marx said, "...the opium of the people," may seem to lead to escapism, a condition, like chronic drug abuse, which could be pathological. However, without some measure of escapism, I believe it would be impossible for us to discover our individual souls, the centers of our imaginations. It is religion which allows us a boon from the gods, a moment of escape from our present reality into a magical world which defies the unforgivable nature of the universe.

It is this retreat which empowers us to see not things as they are but as they could be; for, being locked into a particular paradigm, no matter its reality, cripples and impedes our evolution as a species. The current paradigm can only tell us the way things are; it cannot tell us the innumerable ways in which they could be. Science speaks of facts, not beliefs, possibilities, not impossibilities; it gives us a world common to all people, a world of objectivity. Faith allows us to believe in impossible realities which are created by our imaginations; it allows each of us to see things from a perspective which is unique and sacred; it allows us to imprint, each, his, or her, characteristic spirit on a blind and heedless world. : :

Imagination and science came from the same exact source. Scientists imagine all sorts of things while they're testing and experimenting and trying to explain their results with the language of mathematics. They are more confused now than they've ever been.

Give it a rest!
The very computer you are using now is a product of the work of scientists who tirelessly focus their efforts in making the world a better place for all of us to live in.
rcreynolds
Posts: 59
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8/28/2016 2:48:56 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 1:34:55 PM, Willows wrote:
At 8/28/2016 1:08:06 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 12:05:38 PM, s-anthony wrote:
One way in which we use our imaginations is a means of escape, and religion, for the most part, is a product not of science but of the imagination. Science demands proof; religion demands faith in things which cannot be proven. So, faith is a mechanism of escape from the struggles of reality to the realms of our imaginations. To illustrate, instead of turning to mind-altering drugs to escape the thoughts of an unfavorable history, the penitent escapes his, or her, dark side by the light of absolution. Another way in which religious adherents escape reality is by belief in God's immanency, believing they are never alone. Loneliness is a very real phenomenon which many people find unbearable; some people escape feelings of loneliness by the use of drugs; some people escape through dissociative identities; and, some, like St. John the Divine in exile on the Isle of Patmos or the early Desert Fathers, escape through ecstasy, prophetic exaltation, or visions.

Using religion as a drug or as Karl Marx said, "...the opium of the people," may seem to lead to escapism, a condition, like chronic drug abuse, which could be pathological. However, without some measure of escapism, I believe it would be impossible for us to discover our individual souls, the centers of our imaginations. It is religion which allows us a boon from the gods, a moment of escape from our present reality into a magical world which defies the unforgivable nature of the universe.

It is this retreat which empowers us to see not things as they are but as they could be; for, being locked into a particular paradigm, no matter its reality, cripples and impedes our evolution as a species. The current paradigm can only tell us the way things are; it cannot tell us the innumerable ways in which they could be. Science speaks of facts, not beliefs, possibilities, not impossibilities; it gives us a world common to all people, a world of objectivity. Faith allows us to believe in impossible realities which are created by our imaginations; it allows each of us to see things from a perspective which is unique and sacred; it allows us to imprint, each, his, or her, characteristic spirit on a blind and heedless world. : :

Imagination and science came from the same exact source. Scientists imagine all sorts of things while they're testing and experimenting and trying to explain their results with the language of mathematics. They are more confused now than they've ever been.

Give it a rest!
The very computer you are using now is a product of the work of scientists who tirelessly focus their efforts in making the world a better place for all of us to live in. : :

The computer started out as a concept ( imagination ) in the mind of a man named Charles Babbage. https://en.wikipedia.org...

A watch you could communicate with other people with was drawn on the wrist of Dick Tracy 70 years ago that started out in the imagination of the author of the Dick Tracy comic strip. https://en.wikipedia.org...

H.A.L 9000 was a computerized voice in the movie 2001 Space Odyssey that came from the imagination of Arthur C. Clarke, the author. https://en.wikipedia.org...
keithprosser
Posts: 2,050
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8/28/2016 3:17:01 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
The OP talks of science, religion and taking drugs and puts "science" as being on one side and "religion and taking drugs" as being together on the other.

I think that is incorrect. I would put "science and religion" together and put "drug taking" on the other side.

My reason for saying that is that drug taking is about actively disengaging from 'real life' - a pot head or drunk does not want to think about the real world or his place in it and escapes by rednering himself unable to think about it.

Religion and science are both abiyr understanding our place in the word and they both seek to make sense of life. The believer and the scientist both seek truth (although they disagree what the truth is) but drunks do not seek truth when they drink.

I may need to justify that religious people seek the truth to people who do not think that there is any truth in religion. It is necessary to bear in mind that to the religious mind god is part of reality, as real as gravity or oxygen. (I am not talking about the justification of such a view - I am only saying that it is their honest and sincere belief).

A religious person is not trying to escape from reality - on the contrary they strive to fully engage with what is to them a very concete reality. In that they are no different from the scientist, and very different from the drunk or junkie who just wants to switch off.
s-anthony
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8/29/2016 2:51:40 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
Imagination and science came from the same exact source. Scientists imagine all sorts of things while they're testing and experimenting and trying to explain their results with the language of mathematics. They are more confused now than they've ever been.

I agree; scientists make assumptions all the time.

However, the assumptions of science are based on higher degrees of probability; yet, they are still assumptions.

As long as anomalies are possible, there will be assumptions.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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8/29/2016 3:06:36 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 12:05:38 PM, s-anthony wrote:
One way in which we use our imaginations is a means of escape, and religion, for the most part, is a product not of science but of the imagination. Science demands proof; religion demands faith in things which cannot be proven. So, faith is a mechanism of escape from the struggles of reality to the realms of our imaginations. To illustrate, instead of turning to mind-altering drugs to escape the thoughts of an unfavorable history, the penitent escapes his, or her, dark side by the light of absolution. Another way in which religious adherents escape reality is by belief in God's immanency, believing they are never alone. Loneliness is a very real phenomenon which many people find unbearable; some people escape feelings of loneliness by the use of drugs; some people escape through dissociative identities; and, some, like St. John the Divine in exile on the Isle of Patmos or the early Desert Fathers, escape through ecstasy, prophetic exaltation, or visions.

Using religion as a drug or as Karl Marx said, "...the opium of the people," may seem to lead to escapism, a condition, like chronic drug abuse, which could be pathological. However, without some measure of escapism, I believe it would be impossible for us to discover our individual souls, the centers of our imaginations. It is religion which allows us a boon from the gods, a moment of escape from our present reality into a magical world which defies the unforgivable nature of the universe.

It is this retreat which empowers us to see not things as they are but as they could be; for, being locked into a particular paradigm, no matter its reality, cripples and impedes our evolution as a species. The current paradigm can only tell us the way things are; it cannot tell us the innumerable ways in which they could be. Science speaks of facts, not beliefs, possibilities, not impossibilities; it gives us a world common to all people, a world of objectivity. Faith allows us to believe in impossible realities which are created by our imaginations; it allows each of us to see things from a perspective which is unique and sacred; it allows us to imprint, each, his, or her, characteristic spirit on a blind and heedless world.

Are you really going to hold to the idea the Exodus was the product of imagination?
That Jesus was the product of imagination?
Did all the prophets just imagine things and the Jews kept consistent holy books because it was based on the imagination?

This notion that faith demands no proof is absolute nonsense.
1 Corinthians 15:29-32
29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day"yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die."[d]

A nice quote about your imagination theory.
"The apostles were either deceived or deceivers. Either supposition is difficult, for it is not possible to imagine that a man has risen from the dead. While Jesus was with them, he could sustain them; but afterwards, if he did not appear to them, who did make them act? The hypothesis that the Apostles were knaves is quite absurd. Follow it out to the end, and imagine these twelve men meeting after Jesus' death and conspiring to say that he has risen from the dead. This means attacking all the powers that be. The human heart is singularly susceptible to fickleness, to change, to promises, to bribery. One of them had only to deny his story under these inducements, or still more because of possible imprisonment, tortures and death, and they would all have been lost. Follow that out." (Pascal, Pensees 322, 310)

How many creators of religions die for it and its supposed imagination? All of the apostles were killed for their faith except John.

What is the advantage of this imagination theory? What did the creators get out of it?
Wouldn't the Jews and Romans for example have waved Jesus dead body around with all these people claiming a resurrection?
I mean your over here quoting Karl Max of all people who was the predecessor to a state that massacred tens of millions of people...
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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8/29/2016 3:11:45 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
Quite well put. We all need an escape, for me it is music, others may be art, even sport.

Thank you.

Sure, religion offers consolation and an escape for some and indeed can be a channel for creativity.
I am however vehemently opposed to organised religion in that it cruelly exploits the vulnerability of others by enforcing its agnda through fear and guilt.

Like anything, religion has its vices and virtues.

However, I do not believe the collective is, merely, a product of religion but, rather, religion, to an even greater extent, is a product of the collective. I believe, for the most part, religion is a reflection of the human psyche; and, fear of the unknown and the guilt we experience mostly comes from within ourselves.
s-anthony
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8/29/2016 3:35:51 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
My reason for saying that is that drug taking is about actively disengaging from 'real life' - a pot head or drunk does not want to think about the real world or his place in it and escapes by rednering himself unable to think about it.

Does it matter if you intentionally or unintentionally disengage yourself from reality?

Religion and science are both abiyr understanding our place in the word and they both seek to make sense of life. The believer and the scientist both seek truth (although they disagree what the truth is) but drunks do not seek truth when they drink.

If the truth a person seeks is not real, but imaginary, whether intentionally or not, does this not lead the individual away from reality?

I may need to justify that religious people seek the truth to people who do not think that there is any truth in religion. It is necessary to bear in mind that to the religious mind god is part of reality, as real as gravity or oxygen. (I am not talking about the justification of such a view - I am only saying that it is their honest and sincere belief).

For me, whether or not a person consciously or unconsciously escapes from reality is immaterial.
s-anthony
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8/29/2016 3:41:08 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 3:06:36 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/28/2016 12:05:38 PM, s-anthony wrote:
One way in which we use our imaginations is a means of escape, and religion, for the most part, is a product not of science but of the imagination. Science demands proof; religion demands faith in things which cannot be proven. So, faith is a mechanism of escape from the struggles of reality to the realms of our imaginations. To illustrate, instead of turning to mind-altering drugs to escape the thoughts of an unfavorable history, the penitent escapes his, or her, dark side by the light of absolution. Another way in which religious adherents escape reality is by belief in God's immanency, believing they are never alone. Loneliness is a very real phenomenon which many people find unbearable; some people escape feelings of loneliness by the use of drugs; some people escape through dissociative identities; and, some, like St. John the Divine in exile on the Isle of Patmos or the early Desert Fathers, escape through ecstasy, prophetic exaltation, or visions.

Using religion as a drug or as Karl Marx said, "...the opium of the people," may seem to lead to escapism, a condition, like chronic drug abuse, which could be pathological. However, without some measure of escapism, I believe it would be impossible for us to discover our individual souls, the centers of our imaginations. It is religion which allows us a boon from the gods, a moment of escape from our present reality into a magical world which defies the unforgivable nature of the universe.

It is this retreat which empowers us to see not things as they are but as they could be; for, being locked into a particular paradigm, no matter its reality, cripples and impedes our evolution as a species. The current paradigm can only tell us the way things are; it cannot tell us the innumerable ways in which they could be. Science speaks of facts, not beliefs, possibilities, not impossibilities; it gives us a world common to all people, a world of objectivity. Faith allows us to believe in impossible realities which are created by our imaginations; it allows each of us to see things from a perspective which is unique and sacred; it allows us to imprint, each, his, or her, characteristic spirit on a blind and heedless world.

Are you really going to hold to the idea the Exodus was the product of imagination?
That Jesus was the product of imagination?
Did all the prophets just imagine things and the Jews kept consistent holy books because it was based on the imagination?

This notion that faith demands no proof is absolute nonsense.
1 Corinthians 15:29-32
29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day"yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die."[d]

A nice quote about your imagination theory.
"The apostles were either deceived or deceivers. Either supposition is difficult, for it is not possible to imagine that a man has risen from the dead. While Jesus was with them, he could sustain them; but afterwards, if he did not appear to them, who did make them act? The hypothesis that the Apostles were knaves is quite absurd. Follow it out to the end, and imagine these twelve men meeting after Jesus' death and conspiring to say that he has risen from the dead. This means attacking all the powers that be. The human heart is singularly susceptible to fickleness, to change, to promises, to bribery. One of them had only to deny his story under these inducements, or still more because of possible imprisonment, tortures and death, and they would all have been lost. Follow that out." (Pascal, Pensees 322, 310)

How many creators of religions die for it and its supposed imagination? All of the apostles were killed for their faith except John.

What is the advantage of this imagination theory? What did the creators get out of it?
Wouldn't the Jews and Romans for example have waved Jesus dead body around with all these people claiming a resurrection?
I mean your over here quoting Karl Max of all people who was the predecessor to a state that massacred tens of millions of people...

Do you believe the evidence given to support the claims of religious fundamentalism would stand up in court?
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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8/29/2016 3:43:54 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 3:41:08 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:06:36 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/28/2016 12:05:38 PM, s-anthony wrote:
One way in which we use our imaginations is a means of escape, and religion, for the most part, is a product not of science but of the imagination. Science demands proof; religion demands faith in things which cannot be proven. So, faith is a mechanism of escape from the struggles of reality to the realms of our imaginations. To illustrate, instead of turning to mind-altering drugs to escape the thoughts of an unfavorable history, the penitent escapes his, or her, dark side by the light of absolution. Another way in which religious adherents escape reality is by belief in God's immanency, believing they are never alone. Loneliness is a very real phenomenon which many people find unbearable; some people escape feelings of loneliness by the use of drugs; some people escape through dissociative identities; and, some, like St. John the Divine in exile on the Isle of Patmos or the early Desert Fathers, escape through ecstasy, prophetic exaltation, or visions.

Using religion as a drug or as Karl Marx said, "...the opium of the people," may seem to lead to escapism, a condition, like chronic drug abuse, which could be pathological. However, without some measure of escapism, I believe it would be impossible for us to discover our individual souls, the centers of our imaginations. It is religion which allows us a boon from the gods, a moment of escape from our present reality into a magical world which defies the unforgivable nature of the universe.

It is this retreat which empowers us to see not things as they are but as they could be; for, being locked into a particular paradigm, no matter its reality, cripples and impedes our evolution as a species. The current paradigm can only tell us the way things are; it cannot tell us the innumerable ways in which they could be. Science speaks of facts, not beliefs, possibilities, not impossibilities; it gives us a world common to all people, a world of objectivity. Faith allows us to believe in impossible realities which are created by our imaginations; it allows each of us to see things from a perspective which is unique and sacred; it allows us to imprint, each, his, or her, characteristic spirit on a blind and heedless world.

Are you really going to hold to the idea the Exodus was the product of imagination?
That Jesus was the product of imagination?
Did all the prophets just imagine things and the Jews kept consistent holy books because it was based on the imagination?

This notion that faith demands no proof is absolute nonsense.
1 Corinthians 15:29-32
29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day"yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die."[d]

A nice quote about your imagination theory.
"The apostles were either deceived or deceivers. Either supposition is difficult, for it is not possible to imagine that a man has risen from the dead. While Jesus was with them, he could sustain them; but afterwards, if he did not appear to them, who did make them act? The hypothesis that the Apostles were knaves is quite absurd. Follow it out to the end, and imagine these twelve men meeting after Jesus' death and conspiring to say that he has risen from the dead. This means attacking all the powers that be. The human heart is singularly susceptible to fickleness, to change, to promises, to bribery. One of them had only to deny his story under these inducements, or still more because of possible imprisonment, tortures and death, and they would all have been lost. Follow that out." (Pascal, Pensees 322, 310)

How many creators of religions die for it and its supposed imagination? All of the apostles were killed for their faith except John.

What is the advantage of this imagination theory? What did the creators get out of it?
Wouldn't the Jews and Romans for example have waved Jesus dead body around with all these people claiming a resurrection?
I mean your over here quoting Karl Max of all people who was the predecessor to a state that massacred tens of millions of people...

Do you believe the evidence given to support the claims of religious fundamentalism would stand up in court?
100%
For example:
Luke 1:1-4
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

2 women were the initial witnesses to the resurrection. In a time where a womans testimony in court was actually invalid.
What is your specific contention?
s-anthony
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8/29/2016 3:58:27 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 3:43:54 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:41:08 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:06:36 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/28/2016 12:05:38 PM, s-anthony wrote:
One way in which we use our imaginations is a means of escape, and religion, for the most part, is a product not of science but of the imagination. Science demands proof; religion demands faith in things which cannot be proven. So, faith is a mechanism of escape from the struggles of reality to the realms of our imaginations. To illustrate, instead of turning to mind-altering drugs to escape the thoughts of an unfavorable history, the penitent escapes his, or her, dark side by the light of absolution. Another way in which religious adherents escape reality is by belief in God's immanency, believing they are never alone. Loneliness is a very real phenomenon which many people find unbearable; some people escape feelings of loneliness by the use of drugs; some people escape through dissociative identities; and, some, like St. John the Divine in exile on the Isle of Patmos or the early Desert Fathers, escape through ecstasy, prophetic exaltation, or visions.

Using religion as a drug or as Karl Marx said, "...the opium of the people," may seem to lead to escapism, a condition, like chronic drug abuse, which could be pathological. However, without some measure of escapism, I believe it would be impossible for us to discover our individual souls, the centers of our imaginations. It is religion which allows us a boon from the gods, a moment of escape from our present reality into a magical world which defies the unforgivable nature of the universe.

It is this retreat which empowers us to see not things as they are but as they could be; for, being locked into a particular paradigm, no matter its reality, cripples and impedes our evolution as a species. The current paradigm can only tell us the way things are; it cannot tell us the innumerable ways in which they could be. Science speaks of facts, not beliefs, possibilities, not impossibilities; it gives us a world common to all people, a world of objectivity. Faith allows us to believe in impossible realities which are created by our imaginations; it allows each of us to see things from a perspective which is unique and sacred; it allows us to imprint, each, his, or her, characteristic spirit on a blind and heedless world.

Are you really going to hold to the idea the Exodus was the product of imagination?
That Jesus was the product of imagination?
Did all the prophets just imagine things and the Jews kept consistent holy books because it was based on the imagination?

This notion that faith demands no proof is absolute nonsense.
1 Corinthians 15:29-32
29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day"yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die."[d]

A nice quote about your imagination theory.
"The apostles were either deceived or deceivers. Either supposition is difficult, for it is not possible to imagine that a man has risen from the dead. While Jesus was with them, he could sustain them; but afterwards, if he did not appear to them, who did make them act? The hypothesis that the Apostles were knaves is quite absurd. Follow it out to the end, and imagine these twelve men meeting after Jesus' death and conspiring to say that he has risen from the dead. This means attacking all the powers that be. The human heart is singularly susceptible to fickleness, to change, to promises, to bribery. One of them had only to deny his story under these inducements, or still more because of possible imprisonment, tortures and death, and they would all have been lost. Follow that out." (Pascal, Pensees 322, 310)

How many creators of religions die for it and its supposed imagination? All of the apostles were killed for their faith except John.

What is the advantage of this imagination theory? What did the creators get out of it?
Wouldn't the Jews and Romans for example have waved Jesus dead body around with all these people claiming a resurrection?
I mean your over here quoting Karl Max of all people who was the predecessor to a state that massacred tens of millions of people...

Do you believe the evidence given to support the claims of religious fundamentalism would stand up in court?
100%
For example:
Luke 1:1-4
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

2 women were the initial witnesses to the resurrection. In a time where a womans testimony in court was actually invalid.
What is your specific contention?

So, the very book which makes the claims is the evidence used to substantiate the claims?
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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8/29/2016 4:01:03 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 3:58:27 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:43:54 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:41:08 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:06:36 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/28/2016 12:05:38 PM, s-anthony wrote:
One way in which we use our imaginations is a means of escape, and religion, for the most part, is a product not of science but of the imagination. Science demands proof; religion demands faith in things which cannot be proven. So, faith is a mechanism of escape from the struggles of reality to the realms of our imaginations. To illustrate, instead of turning to mind-altering drugs to escape the thoughts of an unfavorable history, the penitent escapes his, or her, dark side by the light of absolution. Another way in which religious adherents escape reality is by belief in God's immanency, believing they are never alone. Loneliness is a very real phenomenon which many people find unbearable; some people escape feelings of loneliness by the use of drugs; some people escape through dissociative identities; and, some, like St. John the Divine in exile on the Isle of Patmos or the early Desert Fathers, escape through ecstasy, prophetic exaltation, or visions.

Using religion as a drug or as Karl Marx said, "...the opium of the people," may seem to lead to escapism, a condition, like chronic drug abuse, which could be pathological. However, without some measure of escapism, I believe it would be impossible for us to discover our individual souls, the centers of our imaginations. It is religion which allows us a boon from the gods, a moment of escape from our present reality into a magical world which defies the unforgivable nature of the universe.

It is this retreat which empowers us to see not things as they are but as they could be; for, being locked into a particular paradigm, no matter its reality, cripples and impedes our evolution as a species. The current paradigm can only tell us the way things are; it cannot tell us the innumerable ways in which they could be. Science speaks of facts, not beliefs, possibilities, not impossibilities; it gives us a world common to all people, a world of objectivity. Faith allows us to believe in impossible realities which are created by our imaginations; it allows each of us to see things from a perspective which is unique and sacred; it allows us to imprint, each, his, or her, characteristic spirit on a blind and heedless world.

Are you really going to hold to the idea the Exodus was the product of imagination?
That Jesus was the product of imagination?
Did all the prophets just imagine things and the Jews kept consistent holy books because it was based on the imagination?

This notion that faith demands no proof is absolute nonsense.
1 Corinthians 15:29-32
29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I face death every day"yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die."[d]

A nice quote about your imagination theory.
"The apostles were either deceived or deceivers. Either supposition is difficult, for it is not possible to imagine that a man has risen from the dead. While Jesus was with them, he could sustain them; but afterwards, if he did not appear to them, who did make them act? The hypothesis that the Apostles were knaves is quite absurd. Follow it out to the end, and imagine these twelve men meeting after Jesus' death and conspiring to say that he has risen from the dead. This means attacking all the powers that be. The human heart is singularly susceptible to fickleness, to change, to promises, to bribery. One of them had only to deny his story under these inducements, or still more because of possible imprisonment, tortures and death, and they would all have been lost. Follow that out." (Pascal, Pensees 322, 310)

How many creators of religions die for it and its supposed imagination? All of the apostles were killed for their faith except John.

What is the advantage of this imagination theory? What did the creators get out of it?
Wouldn't the Jews and Romans for example have waved Jesus dead body around with all these people claiming a resurrection?
I mean your over here quoting Karl Max of all people who was the predecessor to a state that massacred tens of millions of people...

Do you believe the evidence given to support the claims of religious fundamentalism would stand up in court?
100%
For example:
Luke 1:1-4
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

2 women were the initial witnesses to the resurrection. In a time where a womans testimony in court was actually invalid.
What is your specific contention?

So, the very book which makes the claims is the evidence used to substantiate the claims?
No. The books are the result of an examination of the claims and the result of the claims. Note the scripture I gave you.
RuvDraba
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8/29/2016 7:21:53 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 12:05:38 PM, s-anthony wrote:
faith is a mechanism of escape from the struggles of reality to the realms of our imaginations.
All storytelling does this, and to some degree so does all art.

Religion does more: it bind societies around sacred rituals, stories and laws. That's why societies make specific doctrines sacred. If it's escapism, it's social escapism, but it has always been more than that, because people have been willing to punish, kill, war, sacrifice, commit genocide and die over it.

Loneliness is a very real phenomenon which many people find unbearable
Absent family or friends, people take refuge from loneliness in all manner of fantasies, but that's not why specific religious doctrines are so influential.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,050
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8/29/2016 8:09:19 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 3:35:51 AM, s-anthony wrote:
My reason for saying that is that drug taking is about actively disengaging from 'real life' - a pot head or drunk does not want to think about the real world or his place in it and escapes by rednering himself unable to think about it.

For me, whether or not a person consciously or unconsciously escapes from reality is immaterial.

I think it is very material! For one thing its hard to square the fact that until a generation or so ago most scientists were also believers. Was Newton using religion as a means of escaping reality? It is also of practical signficance because one would surely use a different approach to persude an intelligent but misguided believer to adopt physicalism than one would use to persuade a pot-head of the same thing.

I am not saying that no religious people use religion as a substitute for thinking about things too deeply, but I don't think that is always or even often the case. It is a mistake to think religious people are stupid or frightened of death or of reality. I believe most religious people are honest and genuine in their belief about something that happens (IMO) to be wrong. They don't know it's wrong and they are not in some sort of 'denial' which seems to be the implication of the OP.
Willows
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8/29/2016 9:50:52 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 2:48:56 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 1:34:55 PM, Willows wrote:
At 8/28/2016 1:08:06 PM, rcreynolds wrote:
At 8/28/2016 12:05:38 PM, s-anthony wrote:
One way in which we use our imaginations is a means of escape, and religion, for the most part, is a product not of science but of the imagination. Science demands proof; religion demands faith in things which cannot be proven. So, faith is a mechanism of escape from the struggles of reality to the realms of our imaginations. To illustrate, instead of turning to mind-altering drugs to escape the thoughts of an unfavorable history, the penitent escapes his, or her, dark side by the light of absolution. Another way in which religious adherents escape reality is by belief in God's immanency, believing they are never alone. Loneliness is a very real phenomenon which many people find unbearable; some people escape feelings of loneliness by the use of drugs; some people escape through dissociative identities; and, some, like St. John the Divine in exile on the Isle of Patmos or the early Desert Fathers, escape through ecstasy, prophetic exaltation, or visions.

Using religion as a drug or as Karl Marx said, "...the opium of the people," may seem to lead to escapism, a condition, like chronic drug abuse, which could be pathological. However, without some measure of escapism, I believe it would be impossible for us to discover our individual souls, the centers of our imaginations. It is religion which allows us a boon from the gods, a moment of escape from our present reality into a magical world which defies the unforgivable nature of the universe.

It is this retreat which empowers us to see not things as they are but as they could be; for, being locked into a particular paradigm, no matter its reality, cripples and impedes our evolution as a species. The current paradigm can only tell us the way things are; it cannot tell us the innumerable ways in which they could be. Science speaks of facts, not beliefs, possibilities, not impossibilities; it gives us a world common to all people, a world of objectivity. Faith allows us to believe in impossible realities which are created by our imaginations; it allows each of us to see things from a perspective which is unique and sacred; it allows us to imprint, each, his, or her, characteristic spirit on a blind and heedless world. : :

Imagination and science came from the same exact source. Scientists imagine all sorts of things while they're testing and experimenting and trying to explain their results with the language of mathematics. They are more confused now than they've ever been.

Give it a rest!
The very computer you are using now is a product of the work of scientists who tirelessly focus their efforts in making the world a better place for all of us to live in. : :

The computer started out as a concept ( imagination ) in the mind of a man named Charles Babbage. https://en.wikipedia.org...

A watch you could communicate with other people with was drawn on the wrist of Dick Tracy 70 years ago that started out in the imagination of the author of the Dick Tracy comic strip. https://en.wikipedia.org...

H.A.L 9000 was a computerized voice in the movie 2001 Space Odyssey that came from the imagination of Arthur C. Clarke, the author. https://en.wikipedia.org...

And I would never take away the credits for such creative minds. It is scientists though who take a dream and turn it into reality.
s-anthony
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8/29/2016 3:19:31 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
I think it is very material! For one thing its hard to square the fact that until a generation or so ago most scientists were also believers. Was Newton using religion as a means of escaping reality? It is also of practical signficance because one would surely use a different approach to persude an intelligent but misguided believer to adopt physicalism than one would use to persuade a pot-head of the same thing.

Now, that you mention it, there is a significant difference between drug addiction and religious belief. Intention, or volition, plays a meaningful role in the pathology of drug addiction; most addicts experience feelings of shame and guilt either leading to recovery or destructive behavior. On the other hand, many believers experience acceptance and approval by their respective collectives. As drug addiction may lead to self-loathing, religious belief may lead to higher self-esteem.

However, I believe the person who becomes too fanatical in his, or her, beliefs breaks away from reality to the extent one's beliefs become pathological. The fanatic alienates oneself from the mainstream of one's religion and becomes to a greater degree sectarian. In many cases, like drug addiction, this leads to destructive behavior.

I am not saying that no religious people use religion as a substitute for thinking about things too deeply, but I don't think that is always or even often the case. It is a mistake to think religious people are stupid or frightened of death or of reality. I believe most religious people are honest and genuine in their belief about something that happens (IMO) to be wrong. They don't know it's wrong and they are not in some sort of 'denial' which seems to be the implication of the OP.

In order to be in denial, they would need to realize their beliefs are imaginary and accept them, anyway. However, I personally know of no one who believes in things which he, or she, thinks are fictitious.
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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8/30/2016 12:22:51 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/28/2016 12:05:38 PM, s-anthony wrote:
One way in which we use our imaginations is a means of escape, and religion, for the most part, is a product not of science but of the imagination. Science demands proof; religion demands faith in things which cannot be proven. So, faith is a mechanism of escape from the struggles of reality to the realms of our imaginations. To illustrate, instead of turning to mind-altering drugs to escape the thoughts of an unfavorable history, the penitent escapes his, or her, dark side by the light of absolution. Another way in which religious adherents escape reality is by belief in God's immanency, believing they are never alone. Loneliness is a very real phenomenon which many people find unbearable; some people escape feelings of loneliness by the use of drugs; some people escape through dissociative identities; and, some, like St. John the Divine in exile on the Isle of Patmos or the early Desert Fathers, escape through ecstasy, prophetic exaltation, or visions.

Using religion as a drug or as Karl Marx said, "...the opium of the people," may seem to lead to escapism, a condition, like chronic drug abuse, which could be pathological. However, without some measure of escapism, I believe it would be impossible for us to discover our individual souls, the centers of our imaginations. It is religion which allows us a boon from the gods, a moment of escape from our present reality into a magical world which defies the unforgivable nature of the universe.

It is this retreat which empowers us to see not things as they are but as they could be; for, being locked into a particular paradigm, no matter its reality, cripples and impedes our evolution as a species. The current paradigm can only tell us the way things are; it cannot tell us the innumerable ways in which they could be. Science speaks of facts, not beliefs, possibilities, not impossibilities; it gives us a world common to all people, a world of objectivity. Faith allows us to believe in impossible realities which are created by our imaginations; it allows each of us to see things from a perspective which is unique and sacred; it allows us to imprint, each, his, or her, characteristic spirit on a blind and heedless world.

When science quit being science...

We tossed it off as its own fairytale.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
s-anthony
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8/30/2016 12:31:35 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/30/2016 12:22:51 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 8/28/2016 12:05:38 PM, s-anthony wrote:
One way in which we use our imaginations is a means of escape, and religion, for the most part, is a product not of science but of the imagination. Science demands proof; religion demands faith in things which cannot be proven. So, faith is a mechanism of escape from the struggles of reality to the realms of our imaginations. To illustrate, instead of turning to mind-altering drugs to escape the thoughts of an unfavorable history, the penitent escapes his, or her, dark side by the light of absolution. Another way in which religious adherents escape reality is by belief in God's immanency, believing they are never alone. Loneliness is a very real phenomenon which many people find unbearable; some people escape feelings of loneliness by the use of drugs; some people escape through dissociative identities; and, some, like St. John the Divine in exile on the Isle of Patmos or the early Desert Fathers, escape through ecstasy, prophetic exaltation, or visions.

Using religion as a drug or as Karl Marx said, "...the opium of the people," may seem to lead to escapism, a condition, like chronic drug abuse, which could be pathological. However, without some measure of escapism, I believe it would be impossible for us to discover our individual souls, the centers of our imaginations. It is religion which allows us a boon from the gods, a moment of escape from our present reality into a magical world which defies the unforgivable nature of the universe.

It is this retreat which empowers us to see not things as they are but as they could be; for, being locked into a particular paradigm, no matter its reality, cripples and impedes our evolution as a species. The current paradigm can only tell us the way things are; it cannot tell us the innumerable ways in which they could be. Science speaks of facts, not beliefs, possibilities, not impossibilities; it gives us a world common to all people, a world of objectivity. Faith allows us to believe in impossible realities which are created by our imaginations; it allows each of us to see things from a perspective which is unique and sacred; it allows us to imprint, each, his, or her, characteristic spirit on a blind and heedless world.

When science quit being science...

We tossed it off as its own fairytale.

I agree.