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Extra biblical support for the bible.

bulproof
Posts: 25,175
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8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Xacto
Posts: 11
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8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
bulproof
Posts: 25,175
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8/29/2016 4:14:26 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
If it's in the bible it can't possibility be extra biblical, but do continue.
I found your first foray amusing.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Xacto
Posts: 11
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8/29/2016 4:28:34 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:14:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
If it's in the bible it can't possibility be extra biblical, but do continue.
I found your first foray amusing. : :

I'm glad that you found my statement amusing. Have you ever contributed any new thoughts to Debate.org?
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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8/29/2016 4:33:15 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:28:34 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:14:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
If it's in the bible it can't possibility be extra biblical, but do continue.
I found your first foray amusing. : :

I'm glad that you found my statement amusing. Have you ever contributed any new thoughts to Debate.org?
Well now no reason to be hostile, I think bulproof is asking honestly for once for what support there is. I will post the relevant details myself when I get home later today for which there is more content than you might think corroberating several points in the NT.
bulproof
Posts: 25,175
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8/29/2016 4:33:43 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:28:34 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:14:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
If it's in the bible it can't possibility be extra biblical, but do continue.
I found your first foray amusing. : :

I'm glad that you found my statement amusing. Have you ever contributed any new thoughts to Debate.org?
Is it because you can't respond with honesty about extra biblical support for either the claims of the OT or the NT that you resort to pathetic non responses contributed to by a knowledge of a previously banned member?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Xacto
Posts: 11
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8/29/2016 4:35:41 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:33:15 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:28:34 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:14:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
If it's in the bible it can't possibility be extra biblical, but do continue.
I found your first foray amusing. : :

I'm glad that you found my statement amusing. Have you ever contributed any new thoughts to Debate.org?
Well now no reason to be hostile, I think bulproof is asking honestly for once for what support there is. I will post the relevant details myself when I get home later today for which there is more content than you might think corroberating several points in the NT.: :

Bulproof is wiser than most members in the religious forum. He certainly fooled you.
bulproof
Posts: 25,175
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8/29/2016 4:38:22 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:33:15 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:28:34 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:14:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
If it's in the bible it can't possibility be extra biblical, but do continue.
I found your first foray amusing. : :

I'm glad that you found my statement amusing. Have you ever contributed any new thoughts to Debate.org?
Well now no reason to be hostile, I think bulproof is asking honestly for once for what support there is. I will post the relevant details myself when I get home later today for which there is more content than you might think corroberating several points in the NT.
I've asked for it on many, many occasions, I've just never had an honest supportable response.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Xacto
Posts: 11
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8/29/2016 4:39:05 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:33:43 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:28:34 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:14:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
If it's in the bible it can't possibility be extra biblical, but do continue.
I found your first foray amusing. : :

I'm glad that you found my statement amusing. Have you ever contributed any new thoughts to Debate.org?
Is it because you can't respond with honesty about extra biblical support for either the claims of the OT or the NT that you resort to pathetic non responses contributed to by a knowledge of a previously banned member? : :

You almost got me with this post but you do have a member that wants to show you "non-biblical" historical references but not until he does Google search to find them for you. LOL !!!!!!
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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8/29/2016 4:39:24 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:35:41 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:33:15 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:28:34 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:14:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
If it's in the bible it can't possibility be extra biblical, but do continue.
I found your first foray amusing. : :

I'm glad that you found my statement amusing. Have you ever contributed any new thoughts to Debate.org?
Well now no reason to be hostile, I think bulproof is asking honestly for once for what support there is. I will post the relevant details myself when I get home later today for which there is more content than you might think corroberating several points in the NT.: :

Bulproof is wiser than most members in the religious forum. He certainly fooled you.

Well I know he cant but intrude personal insults and emotional things into his arguments but maybe hes turning over a new leaf :P
Xacto
Posts: 11
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8/29/2016 4:40:48 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:39:24 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:35:41 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:33:15 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:28:34 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:14:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
If it's in the bible it can't possibility be extra biblical, but do continue.
I found your first foray amusing. : :

I'm glad that you found my statement amusing. Have you ever contributed any new thoughts to Debate.org?
Well now no reason to be hostile, I think bulproof is asking honestly for once for what support there is. I will post the relevant details myself when I get home later today for which there is more content than you might think corroberating several points in the NT.: :

Bulproof is wiser than most members in the religious forum. He certainly fooled you.

Well I know he cant but intrude personal insults and emotional things into his arguments but maybe hes turning over a new leaf :P : :

Well go get em and see if he turns over a new leaf.
bulproof
Posts: 25,175
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8/29/2016 4:41:19 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:39:24 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:35:41 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:33:15 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:28:34 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:14:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
If it's in the bible it can't possibility be extra biblical, but do continue.
I found your first foray amusing. : :

I'm glad that you found my statement amusing. Have you ever contributed any new thoughts to Debate.org?
Well now no reason to be hostile, I think bulproof is asking honestly for once for what support there is. I will post the relevant details myself when I get home later today for which there is more content than you might think corroberating several points in the NT.: :

Bulproof is wiser than most members in the religious forum. He certainly fooled you.

Well I know he cant but intrude personal insults and emotional things into his arguments but maybe hes turning over a new leaf :P
Ya home yet?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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8/29/2016 4:42:08 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:38:22 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:33:15 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:28:34 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:14:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
If it's in the bible it can't possibility be extra biblical, but do continue.
I found your first foray amusing. : :

I'm glad that you found my statement amusing. Have you ever contributed any new thoughts to Debate.org?
Well now no reason to be hostile, I think bulproof is asking honestly for once for what support there is. I will post the relevant details myself when I get home later today for which there is more content than you might think corroberating several points in the NT.
I've asked for it on many, many occasions, I've just never had an honest supportable response.

Sure, check back in a few hours.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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8/29/2016 4:43:25 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:41:19 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:39:24 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:35:41 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:33:15 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:28:34 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:14:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
If it's in the bible it can't possibility be extra biblical, but do continue.
I found your first foray amusing. : :

I'm glad that you found my statement amusing. Have you ever contributed any new thoughts to Debate.org?
Well now no reason to be hostile, I think bulproof is asking honestly for once for what support there is. I will post the relevant details myself when I get home later today for which there is more content than you might think corroberating several points in the NT.: :

Bulproof is wiser than most members in the religious forum. He certainly fooled you.

Well I know he cant but intrude personal insults and emotional things into his arguments but maybe hes turning over a new leaf :P
Ya home yet?
Nah im replying stuff from my phone which is almost incapable of functioning well on this forum lol. Give me a couple hrs.
bulproof
Posts: 25,175
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8/29/2016 4:43:28 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:42:08 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:38:22 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:33:15 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:28:34 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:14:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
If it's in the bible it can't possibility be extra biblical, but do continue.
I found your first foray amusing. : :

I'm glad that you found my statement amusing. Have you ever contributed any new thoughts to Debate.org?
Well now no reason to be hostile, I think bulproof is asking honestly for once for what support there is. I will post the relevant details myself when I get home later today for which there is more content than you might think corroberating several points in the NT.
I've asked for it on many, many occasions, I've just never had an honest supportable response.

Sure, check back in a few hours.
Ya home yet?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Xacto
Posts: 11
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8/29/2016 4:45:58 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:43:28 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:42:08 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:38:22 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:33:15 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:28:34 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:14:26 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:06:37 PM, Xacto wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history. : :

"it would seem" is a very lazy way of making a claim that the bible doesn't contain any "non-biblical" historical references.
If it's in the bible it can't possibility be extra biblical, but do continue.
I found your first foray amusing. : :

I'm glad that you found my statement amusing. Have you ever contributed any new thoughts to Debate.org?
Well now no reason to be hostile, I think bulproof is asking honestly for once for what support there is. I will post the relevant details myself when I get home later today for which there is more content than you might think corroberating several points in the NT.
I've asked for it on many, many occasions, I've just never had an honest supportable response.

Sure, check back in a few hours.
Ya home yet? : :

You're the best my friend. I love how God is using you in this forum.
cedertree
Posts: 21
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8/29/2016 4:48:02 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
I found this one from Time. I figure they aren't a purely religious source.

https://www.nytimes.com...

My take on this is that the Bible was written as a story with some small truth in it. Don't think it was ment to be taken literally.
As I have said in the past only the literalists say that it is true word for word and we just haven't found the evidence yet.
Xacto
Posts: 11
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8/29/2016 5:22:03 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:48:02 PM, cedertree wrote:
I found this one from Time. I figure they aren't a purely religious source.

https://www.nytimes.com...

My take on this is that the Bible was written as a story with some small truth in it. Don't think it was ment to be taken literally.
As I have said in the past only the literalists say that it is true word for word and we just haven't found the evidence yet. : :

You need to reread the OP and concentrate on what Bulproof wrote. There is a deception in it that fooled me for a bit.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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8/29/2016 8:40:58 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible? If so can you provide such extra biblical references?
Because it would seem that nothing at all claimed in the bible is actually supported by any contemporary writings or history.

Josephus:
"[116] Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death. Now the Jews had an opinion that the destruction of this army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's displeasure to him."
Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2
Compare with these sections of Mark 6
14 Now King Herod heard of Him, for His name had become well known. And he said, "John the Baptist is risen from the dead, and therefore these powers are at work in him."
17 For Herod himself had sent and laid hold of John, and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip"s wife; for he had married her. 18 Because John had said to Herod, "It is not lawful for you to have your brother"s wife."

19 Therefore Herodias held it against him and wanted to kill him, but she could not; 20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just and holy man, and he protected him. And when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly.
21 Then an opportune day came when Herod on his birthday gave a feast for his nobles, the high officers, and the chief men of Galilee. 22 And when Herodias" daughter herself came in and danced, and pleased Herod and those who sat with him, the king said to the girl, "Ask me whatever you want, and I will give it to you." 23 He also swore to her, "Whatever you ask me, I will give you, up to half my kingdom."

24 So she went out and said to her mother, "What shall I ask?"

And she said, "The head of John the Baptist!"

25 Immediately she came in with haste to the king and asked, saying, "I want you to give me at once the head of John the Baptist on a platter."

26 And the king was exceedingly sorry; yet, because of the oaths and because of those who sat with him, he did not want to refuse her. 27 Immediately the king sent an executioner and commanded his head to be brought. And he went and beheaded him in prison, 28 brought his head on a platter, and gave it to the girl; and the girl gave it to her mother.

Josephus again:
[63] Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu...
I'm sure I don't have to provide any scriptural citations here.

I'm certain you will immediately jump up and down and dismiss Josephus writings as well so I will provide you with the rebuttal to save you some time.
"According to leading Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman, the authenticity of this passage 'has been almost universally acknowledged' by scholars. (Feldman, "Josephus," Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 3, pages 990-91).
http://bede.org.uk...

"Opinion on the authenticity of this passage is varied. Louis H. Feldman surveyed the relevant literature from 1937 to 1980 in Josephus and Modern Scholarship. Feldman noted that 4 scholars regarded the Testimonium Flavianum as entirely genuine, 6 as mostly genuine, 20 accept it with some interpolations, 9 with several interpolations, and 13 regard it as being totally an interpolation.
In my own reading of thirteen books since 1980 that touch upon the passage, ten out of thirteen argue the Testimonium to be partly genuine, while the other three maintain it to be entirely spurious. Coincidentally, the same three books also argue that Jesus did not exist. In one book, by Freke and Gandy, the authors go so far as to state that no "serious scholar" believes that the passage has authenticity (p. 137), which is a serious misrepresentation indeed."
[1]
"The argument is made that much of the vocabulary and style matches that of Josephus. His opening phrase, "Now about this time..." is used regularly to the point of nausea. The description of Jesus as "a wise man" is not typically Christian, but it is used by Josephus of, for example, Solomon and Daniel. Similarly, Christians did not refer to Jesus' miracles as "astonishing deeds" (paradoxa erga), but exactly the same expression is used by Josephus of the miracles of Elisha. And the description of Christians as a "tribe" (phylon) occurs nowhere in early Christian literature, while Josephus uses the word both for the Jewish "race" and for other national or communal groups." [1]

"John P. Meier concludes the following from his analysis of the vocabulary of the Testimonium compared to Josephus and to the New Testament: "No one of these differences means all that much; but the accumulated evidence of all these differences may point to an author who is not taking his material from the NT...The upshot of all this is that, apart from Christianon, not one word of what I identify as the original text of the Testimonium fails to occur elsewhere in Josephus, usually with the same meaning and/or construction. As indicated in the first part of this note, the same cannot be said of the NT." (pp. 81-82)" [1]
bigotry
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8/29/2016 8:53:40 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible?

Steve Mason states, "To have created the testimonium out of whole cloth would be an act of unparalleled scribal audacity." (p. 171) On the contrary, such audacity is paralleled by the extensive interpolations found in the Slavonic Josephus. Concerning the Slavonic Josephus, Meier writes:

The clearly unauthentic text is a long interpolation found only in the Old Russian (popularly known as the "Slavonic") version of The Jewish War, surviving in Russian and Rumanian manuscripts. This pasage is a wildly garbled condensation of various Gospel events, seasoned with the sort of bizarre legendary expansions found in apocryphal gospels and acts of the 2d and 3d centuries. Despite the spirited and ingenious attempts of Robert Eisler to defend the authenticity of much of the Jesus material in the Slavonic Jewish War, almost all critics today discount this theory. In more recent decades, G. A. Williamson stood in a hopeless minority when he tried to maintain the authenticity of this and similar interpolations, which obviously come from a Christian hand (though not necessarily an orthodox one). (p. 57) [1]

"A final curiousity encompasses not the Testimonium taken by itself but the relation of the Testimonium to the longer narrative about John the Baptist in Ant. 18.5.2, 116-119, a text accepted as authentic by almost all scholars. The two passages are in no way related to each other in Josephus. The earlier, shorter passage about Jesus is placed in a context of Pontius Pilate's governorship of Judea; the later, longer passage about John is placed in a context dealing with Herod Antipas, tetrarch of Galilee in Perea. Separated by time, space, and placement in Book 18, Jesus and the Baptist (in that order!) have absolutely nothing to do with each other in the mind and narrative of Josephus. Such a presentation totally contradicts -- indeed, it is the direct opposite of -- the NT portrait of the Baptist, who is always treated briefly as the forerunner of the main character, Jesus. Viewed as a whole, the treatment of Jesus and John in Book 18 of The Antiquities is simply inconceivable as the work of a Christian of any period. (p. 66)" [1]

"James Charlesworth writes: "Josephus must have made a reference to Jesus because the passage, divested of the obvious Christian words, is not Christian and is composed in such a way that it is very difficult to attribute to a Christian. What Christian would refer to Jesus' miracles in such a way that a reader could understand them as merely 'surprising works'? Would a Christian have written that 'first-rate men' or 'men of the highest standing amongst us' accused Jesus before Pilate, leaving the impression that he deserved a guilty verdict? Would a Christian scribe have ended a reference to Jesus by referring to 'the tribe of Christians' who 'are not extinct,' as if they should soon become extinct?" (p. 93)" [1]

"Meier: "But the phrase does not stand in isolation; it is the subject of the statement that this tribe has not died out or disappeared down to Josephus' day. The implication seems to be one of surprise: granted Jesus' shameful end (with no new life mentioned in the core text), one is amazed to note, says Josephus, that this group of post-mortem lovers is still at it and has not disappeared even in our own day (does Josephus have in the back of his mind Nero's attempt to get it to disappear?). I detect in the sentence as a whole something dismissive if not hostile (though any hostility here is aimed at Christians, not Jesus): one would have thought that this 'tribe' of lovers of a crucified man might have disappeared. This does not sound like an interpolation by a Christian of any stripe." (p. 66)" [1]

"Moreover, the treatment of the part played by the Jewish authorities does not jibe with the picture in the Gospels. Whether or not it be true that the Gospels show an increasing tendency to blame the Jews and exonerate the Romans, the Jewish authorities in the Four Gospels carry a great deal of responsibility -- either by way of formal trial(s) by the Sanhedrin in the synoptics or by way of the Realpolitik plotting of Caiaphas and the Jerusalem authorities in John's Gospel even before the hearings of Annas and Caiaphas. Of course, a later Christian believer, reading the Four Gospels, would tend to conflate all four accounts, which would only heighten Jewish participation -- something which the rabid anti-Jewish polemic of many patristic writers only too gladly indulged in. All the stranger, therefore, is the quick, laconic reference in the Testimonium to the 'denunciation' or 'accusation' that the Jewish leaders make before Pilate; Pilate alone, however, is said to condemn Jesus to the cross. Not a word is said about the Jewish authorities passing any sort of sentence. Unless we are to think that some patristic or medieval Christian undertook a historical-critical investigation of the Passion Narratives of the Four Gospels and decided a la Paul Winter that behind John's narrative lay the historical truth of a brief hearing by some Jewish official before Jesus was handed over to Pilate, this description of Jesus' condemnation cannot stem from the Four Gospels -- and certainly not from early Christian expansions on them, which were fiercely anti-Jewish. (pp. 65-66)" [1]

"Also contrary to the Gospel presentation, says Meier, is the statement that Jesus "won over" or "gained a following" both (men) many Jews and (de kai) many of those of Gentile origin. Meier argues:
In the whole of John's Gospel, no one clearly designated a Gentile ever interacts directly with Jesus; the very fact that Gentiles seek to speak to Jesus is a sign to him that the hour of his passion, which alone makes a universal mission possible, is at hand (John 12:20-26). In Matthew's Gospel, where a few exceptions to the rule are allowed (the centurion [Matt 8:5-13]; the Canaanite woman [15:21-28]), we find a pointedly programmatic charge to the Twelve: "Go not to the Gentiles, and do not enter a Samaritan city; rather, go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 10:5-6). The few Gentiles who do come in contact with Jesus are not objects of Jesus' missionary outreach; they rather come to him unbidden and humble, realizing they are out of place. For Matthew, they point forward to the universal mission, which begins only after Jesus' death and resurrection (28:16-20). While Mark and Luke are not as explicit as Matthew on this point, they basically follow the same pattern: during his public ministry, Jesus does not undertake any formal mission to the Gentiles; the few who come to him do so by way of implication. (p. 64)" [1]

""Unless we want to fantasize about a Christian interpolator who is intent on inserting a summary of Jesus' ministry into Josephus and who nevertheless wishes to contradict what the Gospels say about Jesus' ministry, the obvious conclusion to draw is that the core of the Testimonium comes from a non-Christian hand, namely, Josephus'. Understandably, Josephus simply retrojected the situation of his own day, when the original 'Jews for Jesus' had gained many Gentile converts, into the time of Jesus. Naive retrojection is a common trait of Greco-Roman historians." (p. 65)" [1]

1. http://holtz.org...
I suppose that's enough for now on Josephus on to the others.
bigotry
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8/29/2016 9:42:47 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible?

Josephus:
"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned"
book 20 chapter 9
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu...

" Now as soon as Albinus was come to the city of Jerusalem, he used all his endeavors and care that the country might be kept in peace, and this by destroying many of the Sicarii. But as for the high priest, Ananias618 he increased in glory every day, and this to a great degree, and had obtained the favor and esteem of the citizens in a signal manner; for he was a great hoarder up of money"
book 20 chapter 9
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu...
Comparable to:
Acts 23:2
2 The high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him on the mouth.

Tacitus:
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most
exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called
Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin,
suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands
of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous
superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only
in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all
things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their
centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of
all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude
was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of
hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths.
Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished,
or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt,
to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.
http://classics.mit.edu...

Compare to Matthew 27:
When morning came, all the chief priests and elders of the people plotted against Jesus to put Him to death. 2 And when they had bound Him, they led Him away and delivered Him to Pontius[a] Pilate the governor.
24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, "I am innocent of the blood of this just Person.[d] You see to it."
25And all the people answered and said, "His blood be on us and on our children."
26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified
35 Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots

Acts 2:

7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs"we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."

14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.

29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[e] 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

41 Then those who gladly[g] received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church[h] daily those who were being saved.

Acts 28:14 where we found brethren, and were invited to stay with them seven days. And so we went toward Rome

Then there is the entire book of Romans which was for well the romans...
Romans 1:15 So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you who are in Rome also.

Pilney the Younger: Book 10 letter 96 written around 112 AD
"I interrogated them whether they were Christians; if they confessed it I repeated the question twice again, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed. For whatever the nature of their creed might be, I could at least feel no doubt that contumacy and inflexible obstinacy deserved chastisement. There were others also possessed with the same infatuation, but being citizens of Rome, I directed them to be carried thither"

" Others who were named by that informer at first confessed themselves Christians, and then denied it; true, they had been of that persuasion but they had quitted it, some three years, others many years, and a few as much as twentyfive years ago. They all worshipped your statue and the images of the Gods, and cursed Christ."

"They affirmed, however, the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food but food of an ordinary and innocent kind. Even this practice, however, they had abandoned after the publication of my edict, by which, according to your orders, I had forbidden political associations."
http://www.vroma.org...
I'm sure your aware of the texts speaking about celebrating the Sabbath and singing hymns and all that.

Lucian
"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."
http://www.sacred-texts.com...
bigotry
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8/29/2016 9:47:51 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible?
Claudius expulsion of Jews
4 Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus,75 he expelled them from Rome.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu...*.html#25.4
Compare to :
Acts 18:1-2
After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome.

Lives of the Caesars - Nero, sec. 16

45 Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition.
bulproof
Posts: 25,175
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8/31/2016 5:43:18 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 9:47:51 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible?
Claudius expulsion of Jews
4 Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus,75 he expelled them from Rome.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu...*.html#25.4
Compare to :
Acts 18:1-2
After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome.

Lives of the Caesars - Nero, sec. 16

45 Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition.

It's a shame that you went to all that trouble of collecting your "internet arguments" when none of them are accepted by historians. Josephus is a contemporary of the post Jesus decades and he never mentions Jesus or Christians.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bigotry
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9/1/2016 6:41:07 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/31/2016 5:43:18 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 8/29/2016 9:47:51 PM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/29/2016 3:23:29 PM, bulproof wrote:
Are there any "non biblical" historical references to the events claimed in the bible?
Claudius expulsion of Jews
4 Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus,75 he expelled them from Rome.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu...*.html#25.4
Compare to :
Acts 18:1-2
After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome.

Lives of the Caesars - Nero, sec. 16

45 Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition.

It's a shame that you went to all that trouble of collecting your "internet arguments" when none of them are accepted by historians. Josephus is a contemporary of the post Jesus decades and he never mentions Jesus or Christians.
Not accepted by historians? Show me where the consensus is that tacitus, pliney, lives of the ceasars and which specific of the several references from josephus are considered akin to forgery