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Indoctrination is child abuse.

gavin.ogden
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1/7/2011 11:36:43 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
When parents brainwash their children into believing ANY religion before they are old enough to make educated decisions, they actually impede the child's learning curve, and put them at a disadvantage right off the bat. It's wrong, and possibly as immoral as false imprisonment, because they imprison their own child's mind. These are the same people who preach about sin, and believe they KNOW their religion is the true religion. These people should be locked up until their children are grown, and capable of making sound personal decisions.
mattrodstrom
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1/7/2011 12:24:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:36:43 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
When parents brainwash their children into believing ANY religion before they are old enough to make educated decisions, they actually impede the child's learning curve, and put them at a disadvantage right off the bat.

Growing up a Catholic and going to church to hear Homilies where the priest gives his own interpretation of things and such.. encouraged me to think about what's what and how things are...

Such that I'd lie in bed, discussing with my brother across the way, Big questions.. like whether the Universe extends forever.. and God/heaven is of another kind... or if the Universe just Ends at some point far away, like in a wall or something.. and what could possibly be beyond that?? God? heaven?

Although Catholicism has it's Absolute Doctrines, as handed down from Rome.. it also has (for a good bit of time now, not much historically) encouraged critical thinking in it's followers through having priests attempt to explain Their understanding of things to those sitting in the pews.

Sure.. I believed in God... and that might be a silly belief to have...

But it would be tough to say that being raised Catholic was a Net Loss in my Potential critical thinking abilities...

I don't know if I would have been provided with such stimulating thoughts/analysis otherwise.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/7/2011 12:31:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At what point does instruction become indocrination and 'brain-washing'.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
gavin.ogden
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1/7/2011 12:34:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 12:24:27 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:36:43 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
When parents brainwash their children into believing ANY religion before they are old enough to make educated decisions, they actually impede the child's learning curve, and put them at a disadvantage right off the bat.

Growing up a Catholic and going to church to hear Homilies where the priest gives his own interpretation of things and such.. encouraged me to think about what's what and how things are...

Such that I'd lie in bed, discussing with my brother across the way, Big questions.. like whether the Universe extends forever.. and God/heaven is of another kind... or if the Universe just Ends at some point far away, like in a wall or something.. and what could possibly be beyond that?? God? heaven?

Although Catholicism has it's Absolute Doctrines, as handed down from Rome.. it also has (for a good bit of time now, not much historically) encouraged critical thinking in it's followers through having priests attempt to explain Their understanding of things to those sitting in the pews.

Sure.. I believed in God... and that might be a silly belief to have...

But it would be tough to say that being raised Catholic was a Net Loss in my Potential critical thinking abilities...

I don't know if I would have been provided with such stimulating thoughts/analysis otherwise.

Your parents may not be the people I'm talking about. I'm talking about parents who tell their children they will go to hell if they don't abide by the TRUE religion. I'm talking about those people in those Jesus camps who brainwash children. I'm talking about Islamic fundamentalist videos teaching children to HATE and HURT the infidels. I'm not saying children can't be educated in religion, but at least allow them an open mind to see the world for what it truly is, instead of leaving them no hope to find themselves. I hope I'm making sense.
gavin.ogden
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1/7/2011 12:37:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 12:31:55 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At what point does instruction become indocrination and 'brain-washing'.

Good question.
mattrodstrom
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1/7/2011 12:39:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 12:34:29 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I hope I'm making sense.

Your words are enlightening!

mmm.... 8I
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/7/2011 12:46:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 12:37:17 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 1/7/2011 12:31:55 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At what point does instruction become indocrination and 'brain-washing'.

Good question.

As a Jew are you not required to raise your children as Jews?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
gavin.ogden
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1/7/2011 12:47:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 12:39:03 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 12:34:29 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I hope I'm making sense.

Your words are enlightening!

mmm.... 8I

That's it, huh? Any actual feedback? Do you think what I said is simply ignorance, or what? I ask because my hope is to reduce ignorance and give our youth a real shot at changing things for the better.
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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1/7/2011 12:47:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 12:31:55 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At what point does instruction become indoctrination and 'brain-washing'.

When the doctrine being taught insists it would be a vice to doubt it then I would use the word "indoctrination" in its negative sense to describe that instruction.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
gavin.ogden
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1/7/2011 12:48:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 12:46:44 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/7/2011 12:37:17 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 1/7/2011 12:31:55 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At what point does instruction become indocrination and 'brain-washing'.

Good question.

As a Jew are you not required to raise your children as Jews?

Secular Jew here, and an Atheist.
gavin.ogden
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1/7/2011 12:49:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 12:47:56 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 1/7/2011 12:31:55 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At what point does instruction become indoctrination and 'brain-washing'.

When the doctrine being taught insists it would be a vice to doubt it then I would use the word "indoctrination" in its negative sense to describe that instruction.

VERY well put, and insightful.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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1/7/2011 12:51:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 12:48:37 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 1/7/2011 12:46:44 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/7/2011 12:37:17 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 1/7/2011 12:31:55 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At what point does instruction become indocrination and 'brain-washing'.

Good question.

As a Jew are you not required to raise your children as Jews?

Secular Jew here, and an Atheist.

On your profile it says Religion: Jewish.
If you are an atheist, call yourself an atheist!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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1/7/2011 12:51:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 11:36:43 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
When parents brainwash their children into believing ANY religion before they are old enough to make educated decisions, they actually impede the child's learning curve, and put them at a disadvantage right off the bat. It's wrong, and possibly as immoral as false imprisonment, because they imprison their own child's mind. These are the same people who preach about sin, and believe they KNOW their religion is the true religion. These people should be locked up until their children are grown, and capable of making sound personal decisions.

The same goes with everything a parent teaches ; instead we should let our children's mind go free ! Atheism and chaff FTW
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/7/2011 12:55:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 12:47:55 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 1/7/2011 12:39:03 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 12:34:29 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
I hope I'm making sense.

Your words are enlightening!

mmm.... 8I

That's it, huh? Any actual feedback? Do you think what I said is simply ignorance, or what? I ask because my hope is to reduce ignorance and give our youth a real shot at changing things for the better.

I told you.. You're enlightening!

Your perspective is so groundbreaking and interesting... that I can't help but imagine that you're going places :o)

Who would ever come up with the idea that some people overdo it with their religion??? and that it's no good for future generations of the world to be shaped by such crazies.

I just don't know how you do it.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
lovelife
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1/7/2011 1:02:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 12:47:56 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 1/7/2011 12:31:55 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At what point does instruction become indoctrination and 'brain-washing'.

When the doctrine being taught insists it would be a vice to doubt it then I would use the word "indoctrination" in its negative sense to describe that instruction.

I believe I agree with this.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
mattrodstrom
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1/7/2011 1:07:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 12:47:55 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
That's it, huh? Any actual feedback?

In case you haven't gotten it yet..

It doesn't seem like I'm going to stop trolling you anytime soon.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
gavin.ogden
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1/7/2011 1:20:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 12:51:37 PM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:36:43 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
When parents brainwash their children into believing ANY religion before they are old enough to make educated decisions, they actually impede the child's learning curve, and put them at a disadvantage right off the bat. It's wrong, and possibly as immoral as false imprisonment, because they imprison their own child's mind. These are the same people who preach about sin, and believe they KNOW their religion is the true religion. These people should be locked up until their children are grown, and capable of making sound personal decisions.

The same goes with everything a parent teaches ; instead we should let our children's mind go free ! Atheism and chaff FTW

Come on, V. Kids still need guidance, but when guidance turns into indoctrination into a cult like enterprise, it stops being good, and turns into abuse.
Mirza
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1/7/2011 1:21:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Indoctrination? So let me ask, is it wrong to indoctrinate morality on your child - murder is wrong, for instance? Is it child abuse?
gavin.ogden
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1/7/2011 1:22:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 1:07:17 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/7/2011 12:47:55 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
That's it, huh? Any actual feedback?

In case you haven't gotten it yet..

It doesn't seem like I'm going to stop trolling you anytime soon.

What ever makes you feel like a man, I guess.
Mirza
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1/7/2011 1:26:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 1:21:49 PM, Mirza wrote:
Indoctrination? So let me ask, is it wrong to indoctrinate morality on your child - murder is wrong, for instance? Is it child abuse?
gavin.ogden
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1/7/2011 1:38:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 1:21:49 PM, Mirza wrote:
Indoctrination? So let me ask, is it wrong to indoctrinate morality on your child - murder is wrong, for instance? Is it child abuse?

What are you talking about? It seems to me that you believe human instinct is to murder other humans. If you need religion to tell you not to murder, then there is a problem there. Not a very intelligent question, is it?
Mirza
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1/7/2011 1:40:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 1:38:00 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
What are you talking about? It seems to me that you believe human instinct is to murder other humans. If you need religion to tell you not to murder, then there is a problem there. Not a very intelligent question, is it?
My question stands.
vardas0antras
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1/7/2011 1:46:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 1:20:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 1/7/2011 12:51:37 PM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:36:43 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
When parents brainwash their children into believing ANY religion before they are old enough to make educated decisions, they actually impede the child's learning curve, and put them at a disadvantage right off the bat. It's wrong, and possibly as immoral as false imprisonment, because they imprison their own child's mind. These are the same people who preach about sin, and believe they KNOW their religion is the true religion. These people should be locked up until their children are grown, and capable of making sound personal decisions.

The same goes with everything a parent teaches ; instead we should let our children's mind go free ! Atheism and chaff FTW

Come on, V. Kids still need guidance, but when guidance turns into indoctrination into a cult like enterprise, it stops being good, and turns into abuse.

Indoctrination : "to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view." Dictionary.com

I have not heard a child that has his own point of view. A teenager is a different talk but a child will follow the actions of the parent hence the beliefs. I doubt a child would say that he doesn't believe in Yahweh if he sees the parent pray, have bible studies and etcetera ; even if the parent doesn't say a word to the child about Yahweh.
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
gavin.ogden
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1/7/2011 1:52:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 1:46:40 PM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 1/7/2011 1:20:28 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 1/7/2011 12:51:37 PM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 1/7/2011 11:36:43 AM, gavin.ogden wrote:
When parents brainwash their children into believing ANY religion before they are old enough to make educated decisions, they actually impede the child's learning curve, and put them at a disadvantage right off the bat. It's wrong, and possibly as immoral as false imprisonment, because they imprison their own child's mind. These are the same people who preach about sin, and believe they KNOW their religion is the true religion. These people should be locked up until their children are grown, and capable of making sound personal decisions.

The same goes with everything a parent teaches ; instead we should let our children's mind go free ! Atheism and chaff FTW

Come on, V. Kids still need guidance, but when guidance turns into indoctrination into a cult like enterprise, it stops being good, and turns into abuse.

Indoctrination : "to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view." Dictionary.com

I have not heard a child that has his own point of view. A teenager is a different talk but a child will follow the actions of the parent hence the beliefs. I doubt a child would say that he doesn't believe in Yahweh if he sees the parent pray, have bible studies and etcetera ; even if the parent doesn't say a word to the child about Yahweh.

Guidance can certainly be, and absolutely should be unbiased and non partisan.
gavin.ogden
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1/7/2011 1:53:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 1:40:53 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/7/2011 1:38:00 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
What are you talking about? It seems to me that you believe human instinct is to murder other humans. If you need religion to tell you not to murder, then there is a problem there. Not a very intelligent question, is it?
My question stands.

Says a lot about indoctrination, that you believe without your religion, you would resort to murder.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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1/7/2011 2:05:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 12:31:55 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At what point does instruction become indocrination and 'brain-washing'.:

Excellent question.

I believe people have the right to religious freedom, but we do all know of the stories where a parents child refuses a blood transfusion on religious pretenses and the child dies.

There seems to be gray area, which validates your question. Where IS the reasonable line of demarcation?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
mattrodstrom
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1/7/2011 2:05:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 1:53:56 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
At 1/7/2011 1:40:53 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/7/2011 1:38:00 PM, gavin.ogden wrote:
What are you talking about? It seems to me that you believe human instinct is to murder other humans. If you need religion to tell you not to murder, then there is a problem there. Not a very intelligent question, is it?
My question stands.

Says a lot about indoctrination, that you believe without your religion, you would resort to murder.

see... with Mirza though..

I think he would agree that the only reason he'd Ever want to kill anyone would be his Religion.

Mirza doesn't Personally like the idea of beheading/whipping/stoning people... But.. he'll support it in certain cases because God said it's what should happen.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
PARADIGM_L0ST
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1/7/2011 2:07:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
As a Jew are you not required to raise your children as Jews?:

Not if you're simply an ethnic hebrew. If he were a practicing Jew then, yes, but he isn't so it's a moot point.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)