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Islam:The Dating Game

Fatihah
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9/6/2016 1:25:58 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
In Islamic tradition or the example set by Prophet Muhammad (saw), a man wants to be with a woman, thereby seeking marriage. He knows of a noble family that is of great morals and modesty so the daughters in the family will likely share the same values. He asks the father if he can marry his prepubescent daughter. The father approves, only after reviewing the marriage contract where it stipulates that he will love, protect, and provide financially for her, that she is not obligated to work, and the man promises a dowry or wedding gift as proof that he has good intentions. From there on, the man comes to visit from time to time, getting to know and play with the little girl.

Once she reaches maturity, the girl is told by her parents of a marriage contract that has been written for her to marry or is sent off in marriage. After learning of the marriage, the girl can either accept the proposal and enter into the contract, or reject the proposal. She puts trust in her parents and makes the decision to accept the marriage. Then she is given in marriage to live with her husband or stays home, or have the man live with them, according to whatever arrangement she feels most comfortable. They live together as husband and wife and there is no sexual relations unless through consent and after she reaches puberty.

Under Islamic state law, if either has sex before marriage or cheats while in marriage, the punishment is lashing. Thus the law as well as the contract and wedding gift helps to ensure and encourage that there is no infidelity and that the intent is to love, care, protect, and provide for each other, as it is unlikely that someone would willingly agree to such marriage conditions knowing the circumstances of infidelity. If he decides to divorce her, she keeps everything he has given her and if she divorces him, she must give the dowry back. Additionally, if he divorces her after having sexual intercourse, he must support her financially for the next three months in case she is expecting a child. If there is a child, he must support her and the child until she remarries. If she remarries, he must still support the child but is not obligated to support her. If there is no child, he may leave her without supporting her financially. All things, considered, the couple lives happily ever after and have full support of the family.

In the practice common in modern western society, a man sees a woman at some outing, bar, lounge, party, or social event and approaches her because of her physical beauty, as she is dressed in attire specifically worn to accentuate her physical curves. He then proceeds to speak his best one-liners to arouse her interests. She is flattered and gives him her phone number upon request.

After some time passes, and a few phone conversations and dates have occurred, the man and woman find themselves alone together at his or her home. The chemistry is strong, the sexual tension is in the air, one thing leads to another......they have sexual intercourse. Throughout the whole preceding, the man and woman considers themselves just dating or boyfriend and girlfriend.

If the man cheats, she is heartbroken and there is nothing she can do about being used. The same applies to the man if she cheats. The one who is cheated on is distraught and psychologically and emotionally damaged, while the other cheats with no consequence. The promises made to love and care for each other are broken, or never really the true intention from the start and neither party set up any strict conditions to ensure that he or she was with a good, loving person. They go their separate ways, co-parenting if their is a child, carrying hurt and distrust in them and likely between each other and this hurt is now baggage into the next relationship, where he or she meets someone else ......the exact same way they met the person who cheated on them. The cycle continues.....

If only they followed the example of Prophet Muhammad (saw)....
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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9/6/2016 2:10:28 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 1:25:58 PM, Fatihah wrote:
In Islamic tradition or the example set by Prophet Muhammad (saw), a man wants to be with a woman, thereby seeking marriage. He knows of a noble family that is of great morals and modesty so the daughters in the family will likely share the same values. He asks the father if he can marry his prepubescent daughter. The father approves, only after reviewing the marriage contract where it stipulates that he will love, protect, and provide financially for her, that she is not obligated to work, and the man promises a dowry or wedding gift as proof that he has good intentions. From there on, the man comes to visit from time to time, getting to know and play with the little girl.

Once she reaches maturity, the girl is told by her parents of a marriage contract that has been written for her to marry or is sent off in marriage. After learning of the marriage, the girl can either accept the proposal and enter into the contract, or reject the proposal. She puts trust in her parents and makes the decision to accept the marriage. Then she is given in marriage to live with her husband or stays home, or have the man live with them, according to whatever arrangement she feels most comfortable. They live together as husband and wife and there is no sexual relations unless through consent and after she reaches puberty.

Under Islamic state law, if either has sex before marriage or cheats while in marriage, the punishment is lashing. Thus the law as well as the contract and wedding gift helps to ensure and encourage that there is no infidelity and that the intent is to love, care, protect, and provide for each other, as it is unlikely that someone would willingly agree to such marriage conditions knowing the circumstances of infidelity. If he decides to divorce her, she keeps everything he has given her and if she divorces him, she must give the dowry back. Additionally, if he divorces her after having sexual intercourse, he must support her financially for the next three months in case she is expecting a child. If there is a child, he must support her and the child until she remarries. If she remarries, he must still support the child but is not obligated to support her. If there is no child, he may leave her without supporting her financially. All things, considered, the couple lives happily ever after and have full support of the family.

In the practice common in modern western society, a man sees a woman at some outing, bar, lounge, party, or social event and approaches her because of her physical beauty, as she is dressed in attire specifically worn to accentuate her physical curves. He then proceeds to speak his best one-liners to arouse her interests. She is flattered and gives him her phone number upon request.

After some time passes, and a few phone conversations and dates have occurred, the man and woman find themselves alone together at his or her home. The chemistry is strong, the sexual tension is in the air, one thing leads to another......they have sexual intercourse. Throughout the whole preceding, the man and woman considers themselves just dating or boyfriend and girlfriend.

If the man cheats, she is heartbroken and there is nothing she can do about being used. The same applies to the man if she cheats. The one who is cheated on is distraught and psychologically and emotionally damaged, while the other cheats with no consequence. The promises made to love and care for each other are broken, or never really the true intention from the start and neither party set up any strict conditions to ensure that he or she was with a good, loving person. They go their separate ways, co-parenting if their is a child, carrying hurt and distrust in them and likely between each other and this hurt is now baggage into the next relationship, where he or she meets someone else ......the exact same way they met the person who cheated on them. The cycle continues.....

If only they followed the example of Prophet Muhammad (saw)....

Then it would seem women only bring sex to the table as their contribution to a relationship, and are groomed as such, literally from being a child.

Pass.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Willows
Posts: 2,031
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9/6/2016 2:13:30 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 1:25:58 PM, Fatihah wrote:
In Islamic tradition or the example set by Prophet Muhammad (saw), a man wants to be with a woman, thereby seeking marriage. He knows of a noble family that is of great morals and modesty so the daughters in the family will likely share the same values. He asks the father if he can marry his prepubescent daughter. The father approves, only after reviewing the marriage contract where it stipulates that he will love, protect, and provide financially for her, that she is not obligated to work, and the man promises a dowry or wedding gift as proof that he has good intentions. From there on, the man comes to visit from time to time, getting to know and play with the little girl.

Once she reaches maturity, the girl is told by her parents of a marriage contract that has been written for her to marry or is sent off in marriage. After learning of the marriage, the girl can either accept the proposal and enter into the contract, or reject the proposal. She puts trust in her parents and makes the decision to accept the marriage. Then she is given in marriage to live with her husband or stays home, or have the man live with them, according to whatever arrangement she feels most comfortable. They live together as husband and wife and there is no sexual relations unless through consent and after she reaches puberty.

Under Islamic state law, if either has sex before marriage or cheats while in marriage, the punishment is lashing. Thus the law as well as the contract and wedding gift helps to ensure and encourage that there is no infidelity and that the intent is to love, care, protect, and provide for each other, as it is unlikely that someone would willingly agree to such marriage conditions knowing the circumstances of infidelity. If he decides to divorce her, she keeps everything he has given her and if she divorces him, she must give the dowry back. Additionally, if he divorces her after having sexual intercourse, he must support her financially for the next three months in case she is expecting a child. If there is a child, he must support her and the child until she remarries. If she remarries, he must still support the child but is not obligated to support her. If there is no child, he may leave her without supporting her financially. All things, considered, the couple lives happily ever after and have full support of the family.

In the practice common in modern western society, a man sees a woman at some outing, bar, lounge, party, or social event and approaches her because of her physical beauty, as she is dressed in attire specifically worn to accentuate her physical curves. He then proceeds to speak his best one-liners to arouse her interests. She is flattered and gives him her phone number upon request.

After some time passes, and a few phone conversations and dates have occurred, the man and woman find themselves alone together at his or her home. The chemistry is strong, the sexual tension is in the air, one thing leads to another......they have sexual intercourse. Throughout the whole preceding, the man and woman considers themselves just dating or boyfriend and girlfriend.

If the man cheats, she is heartbroken and there is nothing she can do about being used. The same applies to the man if she cheats. The one who is cheated on is distraught and psychologically and emotionally damaged, while the other cheats with no consequence. The promises made to love and care for each other are broken, or never really the true intention from the start and neither party set up any strict conditions to ensure that he or she was with a good, loving person. They go their separate ways, co-parenting if their is a child, carrying hurt and distrust in them and likely between each other and this hurt is now baggage into the next relationship, where he or she meets someone else ......the exact same way they met the person who cheated on them. The cycle continues.....

If only they followed the example of Prophet Muhammad (saw)....

So that he can beat the crap out of her whenever he deams that God told him to do so.

She has to walk behind him in public dressed from head to toe while he wears jeans and a superman T shirt.

She is not allowed to vote or drive a car.

She is not allowed out unless accompanied by male family members.

If she commits adultery she is stoned. If he commits adultery he gets stoned and laughs it off with his mates.

"Hey there babe, that's a lovely burkha you are wearing. I bet it would look even better on the floor of my harem."
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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9/6/2016 2:22:14 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:10:28 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 9/6/2016 1:25:58 PM, Fatihah wrote:
In Islamic tradition or the example set by Prophet Muhammad (saw), a man wants to be with a woman, thereby seeking marriage. He knows of a noble family that is of great morals and modesty so the daughters in the family will likely share the same values. He asks the father if he can marry his prepubescent daughter. The father approves, only after reviewing the marriage contract where it stipulates that he will love, protect, and provide financially for her, that she is not obligated to work, and the man promises a dowry or wedding gift as proof that he has good intentions. From there on, the man comes to visit from time to time, getting to know and play with the little girl.

Once she reaches maturity, the girl is told by her parents of a marriage contract that has been written for her to marry or is sent off in marriage. After learning of the marriage, the girl can either accept the proposal and enter into the contract, or reject the proposal. She puts trust in her parents and makes the decision to accept the marriage. Then she is given in marriage to live with her husband or stays home, or have the man live with them, according to whatever arrangement she feels most comfortable. They live together as husband and wife and there is no sexual relations unless through consent and after she reaches puberty.

Under Islamic state law, if either has sex before marriage or cheats while in marriage, the punishment is lashing. Thus the law as well as the contract and wedding gift helps to ensure and encourage that there is no infidelity and that the intent is to love, care, protect, and provide for each other, as it is unlikely that someone would willingly agree to such marriage conditions knowing the circumstances of infidelity. If he decides to divorce her, she keeps everything he has given her and if she divorces him, she must give the dowry back. Additionally, if he divorces her after having sexual intercourse, he must support her financially for the next three months in case she is expecting a child. If there is a child, he must support her and the child until she remarries. If she remarries, he must still support the child but is not obligated to support her. If there is no child, he may leave her without supporting her financially. All things, considered, the couple lives happily ever after and have full support of the family.

In the practice common in modern western society, a man sees a woman at some outing, bar, lounge, party, or social event and approaches her because of her physical beauty, as she is dressed in attire specifically worn to accentuate her physical curves. He then proceeds to speak his best one-liners to arouse her interests. She is flattered and gives him her phone number upon request.

After some time passes, and a few phone conversations and dates have occurred, the man and woman find themselves alone together at his or her home. The chemistry is strong, the sexual tension is in the air, one thing leads to another......they have sexual intercourse. Throughout the whole preceding, the man and woman considers themselves just dating or boyfriend and girlfriend.

If the man cheats, she is heartbroken and there is nothing she can do about being used. The same applies to the man if she cheats. The one who is cheated on is distraught and psychologically and emotionally damaged, while the other cheats with no consequence. The promises made to love and care for each other are broken, or never really the true intention from the start and neither party set up any strict conditions to ensure that he or she was with a good, loving person. They go their separate ways, co-parenting if their is a child, carrying hurt and distrust in them and likely between each other and this hurt is now baggage into the next relationship, where he or she meets someone else ......the exact same way they met the person who cheated on them. The cycle continues.....

If only they followed the example of Prophet Muhammad (saw)....

Then it would seem women only bring sex to the table as their contribution to a relationship, and are groomed as such, literally from being a child.

Pass.

+1 Yes, women are used as chattel for loveless contract marriages based on mens lust of young girls.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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9/6/2016 2:23:29 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:10:28 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Then it would seem women only bring sex to the table as their contribution to a relationship, and are groomed as such, literally from being a child.

Pass.

Response: Except where it says to love, care, and protect each other. I guess it takes a person who has these qualities to recognize it when it says it.

So I don't blame you for passing.
Fatihah
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9/6/2016 2:25:38 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:13:30 PM, Willows wrote:

So that he can beat the crap out of her whenever he deams that God told him to do so.

She has to walk behind him in public dressed from head to toe while he wears jeans and a superman T shirt.

She is not allowed to vote or drive a car.

She is not allowed out unless accompanied by male family members.

If she commits adultery she is stoned. If he commits adultery he gets stoned and laughs it off with his mates.

"Hey there babe, that's a lovely burkha you are wearing. I bet it would look even better on the floor of my harem."

Response: I feel sorry for the person who decided to agree with your contract of beating her, forcing her to walk behind you, etc..

Fortunately, we have the prophet Muhammad who sets a better example than yours.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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9/6/2016 2:30:25 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:23:29 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/6/2016 2:10:28 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Then it would seem women only bring sex to the table as their contribution to a relationship, and are groomed as such, literally from being a child.

Pass.

Response: Except where it says to love, care, and protect each other. I guess it takes a person who has these qualities to recognize it when it says it.

Peachy. Where and how is a child going to recognize these things from a stranger? Why on God's green earth would the parents not instead instruct said child to learn and develop themselves so they could pick a mate of their own choosing, rather than one that is hoped to be a good fit? What good is reviewing such a contract when the child becomes sexually mature if for the entirety of their remembrance, they are being conditioned that this virtual stranger is the one for them.... by the stranger.


This system is ripe for abuse, and arguably is founded on the idea of sexism.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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9/6/2016 2:37:53 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:30:25 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Peachy. Where and how is a child going to recognize these things from a stranger? Why on God's green earth would the parents not instead instruct said child to learn and develop themselves so they could pick a mate of their own choosing, rather than one that is hoped to be a good fit? What good is reviewing such a contract when the child becomes sexually mature if for the entirety of their remembrance, they are being conditioned that this virtual stranger is the one for them.... by the stranger.


This system is ripe for abuse, and arguably is founded on the idea of sexism.

Response: She recognizes it the same way an adult does, which is when she reaches maturity. A child cannot develop without guidance from her parent, and there is nothing wrong with a parent guiding their child into marriage.

So suggesting that such a system is ripe for abuse only reflects bad parenting and bad intent on your part, especially when the same can be said if a grown woman and grown man meets and they are also strangers when they first meet according to your own dating practice.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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9/6/2016 2:38:36 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 1:25:58 PM, Fatihah wrote:

If the man cheats, she is heartbroken and there is nothing she can do about being used. The same applies to the man if she cheats. The one who is cheated on is distraught and psychologically and emotionally damaged, while the other cheats with no consequence. The promises made to love and care for each other are broken, or never really the true intention from the start and neither party set up any strict conditions to ensure that he or she was with a good, loving person. They go their separate ways, co-parenting if their is a child, carrying hurt and distrust in them and likely between each other and this hurt is now baggage into the next relationship, where he or she meets someone else ......the exact same way they met the person who cheated on them. The cycle continues.....

So sorry your relationships are ending up this way, that would explain why you're so psychologically and emotionally damaged. No child bride for you.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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9/6/2016 2:42:02 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:38:36 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

So sorry your relationships are ending up this way, that would explain why you're so psychologically and emotionally damaged. No child bride for you.

Response: No worries, since my relationships are fine. Sorry if I ruined your predatory desire of child prides.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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9/6/2016 2:42:34 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:37:53 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/6/2016 2:30:25 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Peachy. Where and how is a child going to recognize these things from a stranger? Why on God's green earth would the parents not instead instruct said child to learn and develop themselves so they could pick a mate of their own choosing, rather than one that is hoped to be a good fit? What good is reviewing such a contract when the child becomes sexually mature if for the entirety of their remembrance, they are being conditioned that this virtual stranger is the one for them.... by the stranger.


This system is ripe for abuse, and arguably is founded on the idea of sexism.

Response: She recognizes it the same way an adult does, which is when she reaches maturity. A child cannot develop without guidance from her parent, and there is nothing wrong with a parent guiding their child into marriage.

Yes, guiding them into loveless contract marriages, not engineering, or a medical profession, or anything else the women themselves might want in their lives.

So suggesting that such a system is ripe for abuse only reflects bad parenting and bad intent on your part, especially when the same can be said if a grown woman and grown man meets and they are also strangers when they first meet according to your own dating practice.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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9/6/2016 2:45:15 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:42:34 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Yes, guiding them into loveless contract marriages, not engineering, or a medical profession, or anything else the women themselves might want in their lives.

Response: Marriage does not prevent a profession. So sorry that your marriage did. If you followed the Prophet, you wouldn't have that problem.
DanneJeRusse
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9/6/2016 2:45:20 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:42:02 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/6/2016 2:38:36 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

So sorry your relationships are ending up this way, that would explain why you're so psychologically and emotionally damaged. No child bride for you.

Response: No worries, since my relationships are fine.

So. you do have a child bride through contract? I doubt you have any relationships with women, Fati, based on your twisted view of how to treat them. Women in the US, the ones you lied about in the OP would have nothing to do with you.

Sorry if I ruined your predatory desire of child prides.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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9/6/2016 2:46:20 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:37:53 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/6/2016 2:30:25 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Peachy. Where and how is a child going to recognize these things from a stranger? Why on God's green earth would the parents not instead instruct said child to learn and develop themselves so they could pick a mate of their own choosing, rather than one that is hoped to be a good fit? What good is reviewing such a contract when the child becomes sexually mature if for the entirety of their remembrance, they are being conditioned that this virtual stranger is the one for them.... by the stranger.


This system is ripe for abuse, and arguably is founded on the idea of sexism.

Response: She recognizes it the same way an adult does, which is when she reaches maturity. A child cannot develop without guidance from her parent, and there is nothing wrong with a parent guiding their child into marriage.

"When she reaches maturity", its already too late, the coercion of the happy-to-be-husband is already well past taken root, the grooming is complete, for better or for worse. The influence of a stranger, whom wanted access to a stranger's pre-pubescent daughter, to, ya know, "play with" has been inserted.


So suggesting that such a system is ripe for abuse only reflects bad parenting

Possibly, sure.

and bad intent on your part,

Lulz. Exposing the inherent flaws with the system you present is 'ill intent' on my part. Sure, Champ.

especially when the same can be said if a grown woman and grown man meets and they are also strangers when they first meet according to your own dating practice.

Yes, they are also of age, having grown and developed without the immediate impression than their only value (seemingly) is sex, their own desires for a relationship to be explored, and their own interest to follow for finding a mate.

But, that removes the power from the men in your scenario, thus, will never occur.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Fatihah
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9/6/2016 2:46:42 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:45:20 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

So. you do have a child bride through contract? I doubt you have any relationships with women, Fati, based on your twisted view of how to treat them. Women in the US, the ones you lied about in the OP would have nothing to do with you.
.

Response: That's not what your sister would say.
DanneJeRusse
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9/6/2016 2:47:44 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:45:15 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/6/2016 2:42:34 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

Yes, guiding them into loveless contract marriages, not engineering, or a medical profession, or anything else the women themselves might want in their lives.

Response: Marriage does not prevent a profession.

The men prevent it.

So sorry that your marriage did. If you followed the Prophet, you wouldn't have that problem.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Fatihah
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9/6/2016 2:51:52 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:46:20 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

"When she reaches maturity", its already too late, the coercion of the happy-to-be-husband is already well past taken root, the grooming is complete, for better or for worse. The influence of a stranger, whom wanted access to a stranger's pre-pubescent daughter, to, ya know, "play with" has been inserted.


Lulz. Exposing the inherent flaws with the system you present is 'ill intent' on my part. Sure, Champ.


Yes, they are also of age, having grown and developed without the immediate impression than their only value (seemingly) is sex, their own desires for a relationship to be explored, and their own interest to follow for finding a mate.

But, that removes the power from the men in your scenario, thus, will never occur.

Response: There is no coercion mentioned in the OP. The fact that you read coercion from the words consent is another reflection of your own perverted ideology. Not Islam.

And once they are of age, they still cheat with no consequence, the victim of cheating is distraught, and that baggage is carried into another relationship where the same cycle is repeated after finding another bad person using their fully developed minds.

So what you propose is not a solution.
DanneJeRusse
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9/6/2016 2:51:53 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:46:42 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/6/2016 2:45:20 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

So. you do have a child bride through contract? I doubt you have any relationships with women, Fati, based on your twisted view of how to treat them. Women in the US, the ones you lied about in the OP would have nothing to do with you.
.

Response: That's not what your sister would say.

LOL. My sister or any other women who had brains in their heads could see right through you and kick your sorry a$$.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Fatihah
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9/6/2016 2:52:35 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:51:53 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

LOL. My sister or any other women who had brains in their heads could see right through you and kick your sorry a$$.

Response: I disagree.
FaustianJustice
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9/6/2016 3:08:04 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 2:51:52 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/6/2016 2:46:20 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

"When she reaches maturity", its already too late, the coercion of the happy-to-be-husband is already well past taken root, the grooming is complete, for better or for worse. The influence of a stranger, whom wanted access to a stranger's pre-pubescent daughter, to, ya know, "play with" has been inserted.


Lulz. Exposing the inherent flaws with the system you present is 'ill intent' on my part. Sure, Champ.


Yes, they are also of age, having grown and developed without the immediate impression than their only value (seemingly) is sex, their own desires for a relationship to be explored, and their own interest to follow for finding a mate.

But, that removes the power from the men in your scenario, thus, will never occur.

Response: There is no coercion mentioned in the OP. The fact that you read coercion from the words consent is another reflection of your own perverted ideology. Not Islam.

Islam is allowing such coercion. Grown men don't have an interest in pre-pubescent children that are not theirs, Fatiah, unless there is immediate ulterior motive.

And once they are of age, they still cheat with no consequence, the victim of cheating is distraught, and that baggage is carried into another relationship where the same cycle is repeated after finding another bad person using their fully developed minds.

Cheating/infidelity is only such if there is a committed relationship, and instances in such occur, but are not the norm. In the mean time, you are putting a monetary value on the daughter-in-question's sexuality. That makes her a prostitute. Not a spouse.

So what you propose is not a solution.

You mean what YOU propose. I have only responded to what you have typed, strawmen and all. While my solution isn't perfect, it does prevent victimization of those whom have their ability to choose essentially robbed from them. Your "solution" on the other hand, is systemic sexism in which strangers are given access to pre-pubescent girls to guarantee sex as early as biologically possible. Possibly even sooner.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Fatihah
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9/6/2016 3:21:37 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 3:08:04 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Islam is allowing such coercion. Grown men don't have an interest in pre-pubescent children that are not theirs, Fatiah, unless there is immediate ulterior motive.


Cheating/infidelity is only such if there is a committed relationship, and instances in such occur, but are not the norm. In the mean time, you are putting a monetary value on the daughter-in-question's sexuality. That makes her a prostitute. Not a spouse.

So what you propose is not a solution.

You mean what YOU propose. I have only responded to what you have typed, strawmen and all. While my solution isn't perfect, it does prevent victimization of those whom have their ability to choose essentially robbed from them. Your "solution" on the other hand, is systemic sexism in which strangers are given access to pre-pubescent girls to guarantee sex as early as biologically possible. Possibly even sooner.

Response: Nowhere is coercion mentioned in the OP. So again, you only expose your own perversion. Not Islam. As for monetary value, the condition also includes loving, protecting, and providing for them. So if this is prostitution , then according to your logic, prostitution is a great thing. Thus exposing yourself, not Islam.
FaustianJustice
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9/6/2016 3:31:28 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 3:21:37 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/6/2016 3:08:04 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Islam is allowing such coercion. Grown men don't have an interest in pre-pubescent children that are not theirs, Fatiah, unless there is immediate ulterior motive.


Cheating/infidelity is only such if there is a committed relationship, and instances in such occur, but are not the norm. In the mean time, you are putting a monetary value on the daughter-in-question's sexuality. That makes her a prostitute. Not a spouse.

So what you propose is not a solution.

You mean what YOU propose. I have only responded to what you have typed, strawmen and all. While my solution isn't perfect, it does prevent victimization of those whom have their ability to choose essentially robbed from them. Your "solution" on the other hand, is systemic sexism in which strangers are given access to pre-pubescent girls to guarantee sex as early as biologically possible. Possibly even sooner.

Response: Nowhere is coercion mentioned in the OP.

Its inherent to your OP. If you disagree with the word because it sounds (rightly so) sinister, insert "undue influence".

So again, you only expose your own perversion. Not Islam. As for monetary value, the condition also includes loving, protecting, and providing for them.

But what happens if said are not "loved", "protected", or "provided for"? You fail to mention any of that, only tie the dowry into cheating.

Prostitution.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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9/6/2016 3:32:29 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 1:25:58 PM, Fatihah wrote:
In Islamic tradition or the example set by Prophet Muhammad (saw), a man wants to be with a woman, thereby seeking marriage. He knows of a noble family that is of great morals and modesty so the daughters in the family will likely share the same values. He asks the father if he can marry his prepubescent daughter. The father approves, only after reviewing the marriage contract where it stipulates that he will love, protect, and provide financially for her, that she is not obligated to work, and the man promises a dowry or wedding gift as proof that he has good intentions. From there on, the man comes to visit from time to time, getting to know and play with the little girl.

Once she reaches maturity, the girl is told by her parents of a marriage contract that has been written for her to marry or is sent off in marriage. After learning of the marriage, the girl can either accept the proposal and enter into the contract, or reject the proposal. She puts trust in her parents and makes the decision to accept the marriage. Then she is given in marriage to live with her husband or stays home, or have the man live with them, according to whatever arrangement she feels most comfortable. They live together as husband and wife and there is no sexual relations unless through consent and after she reaches puberty.

Under Islamic state law, if either has sex before marriage or cheats while in marriage, the punishment is lashing. Thus the law as well as the contract and wedding gift helps to ensure and encourage that there is no infidelity and that the intent is to love, care, protect, and provide for each other, as it is unlikely that someone would willingly agree to such marriage conditions knowing the circumstances of infidelity. If he decides to divorce her, she keeps everything he has given her and if she divorces him, she must give the dowry back. Additionally, if he divorces her after having sexual intercourse, he must support her financially for the next three months in case she is expecting a child. If there is a child, he must support her and the child until she remarries. If she remarries, he must still support the child but is not obligated to support her. If there is no child, he may leave her without supporting her financially. All things, considered, the couple lives happily ever after and have full support of the family.

In the practice common in modern western society, a man sees a woman at some outing, bar, lounge, party, or social event and approaches her because of her physical beauty, as she is dressed in attire specifically worn to accentuate her physical curves. He then proceeds to speak his best one-liners to arouse her interests. She is flattered and gives him her phone number upon request.

After some time passes, and a few phone conversations and dates have occurred, the man and woman find themselves alone together at his or her home. The chemistry is strong, the sexual tension is in the air, one thing leads to another......they have sexual intercourse. Throughout the whole preceding, the man and woman considers themselves just dating or boyfriend and girlfriend.

If the man cheats, she is heartbroken and there is nothing she can do about being used. The same applies to the man if she cheats. The one who is cheated on is distraught and psychologically and emotionally damaged, while the other cheats with no consequence. The promises made to love and care for each other are broken, or never really the true intention from the start and neither party set up any strict conditions to ensure that he or she was with a good, loving person. They go their separate ways, co-parenting if their is a child, carrying hurt and distrust in them and likely between each other and this hurt is now baggage into the next relationship, where he or she meets someone else ......the exact same way they met the person who cheated on them. The cycle continues.....

If only they followed the example of Prophet Muhammad (saw)....

Do you feel like this should be allowed to happen in the opposite way? IE A woman seeks marriage with a prepubescent boy
Meh!
Fatihah
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9/6/2016 3:41:30 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 3:31:28 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Its inherent to your OP. If you disagree with the word because it sounds (rightly so) sinister, insert "undue influence".


But what happens if said are not "loved", "protected", or "provided for"? You fail to mention any of that, only tie the dowry into cheating.

Prostitution.

Response: It's inherent from your perverted ideology, since love, protect, and provide and consent, does not mean coercion. Again you expose yourself. Not Islam.

And the rest was addressed, as it clearly says they divorce. Unlike your dating practice of sex and dump them, with no remorse to the victim of cheating or repercussion to the cheater.
Fatihah
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9/6/2016 3:43:33 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 3:32:29 PM, Axonly wrote:

Do you feel like this should be allowed to happen in the opposite way? IE A woman seeks marriage with a prepubescent boy

Response: Sure. I don't see any problem. As long as the same conditions are applied as stated in the OP.
FaustianJustice
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9/6/2016 4:08:51 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 3:41:30 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/6/2016 3:31:28 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Its inherent to your OP. If you disagree with the word because it sounds (rightly so) sinister, insert "undue influence".


But what happens if said are not "loved", "protected", or "provided for"? You fail to mention any of that, only tie the dowry into cheating.

Prostitution.

Response: It's inherent from your perverted ideology, since love, protect, and provide and consent, does not mean coercion.

Those are also not provisions of the contract until later in life, and "consent" is beyond the child's ability. That is why the contract is with the parents about the child, not with the child.

Again you expose yourself. Not Islam.

Islam apparently has men showing interest in pre-pubescent girls in order to get close and "play" with them. I think Islam exposes itself enough, thanks.

And the rest was addressed, as it clearly says they divorce. Unlike your dating practice of sex and dump them, with no remorse to the victim of cheating or repercussion to the cheater.

Lulz. "Victim"? Victim of what, if the opposite member of the relationship is dumped?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Fatihah
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9/6/2016 4:34:52 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 4:08:51 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:


Those are also not provisions of the contract until later in life, and "consent" is beyond the child's ability. That is why the contract is with the parents about the child, not with the child.

Islam apparently has men showing interest in pre-pubescent girls in order to get close and "play" with them. I think Islam exposes itself enough, thanks.


Lulz. "Victim"? Victim of what, if the opposite member of the relationship is dumped?

Response: The provision to love, protect and provide are not later in life. So again, you expose yourself by showing you cannot love a child or woman until later in life. Not Islam. Furthermore, a child can imply consent, which can be done by showing like or dislike to something. Your impotence as a child that prevented you from consent is not shared by all children.
FaustianJustice
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9/6/2016 4:51:21 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 4:34:52 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/6/2016 4:08:51 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:


Those are also not provisions of the contract until later in life, and "consent" is beyond the child's ability. That is why the contract is with the parents about the child, not with the child.

Islam apparently has men showing interest in pre-pubescent girls in order to get close and "play" with them. I think Islam exposes itself enough, thanks.


Lulz. "Victim"? Victim of what, if the opposite member of the relationship is dumped?

Response: The provision to love, protect and provide are not later in life. So again, you expose yourself by showing you cannot love a child or woman until later in life.

As a mate? Yeah, that is correct, I have absolutely no desire to view a pre-pubescent child as a spouse. Islam, apparently, does. Good for Islam.

Not Islam. Furthermore, a child can imply consent, which can be done by showing like or dislike to something.

So why is the contract with the parents?

Your impotence as a child that prevented you from consent is not shared by all children.

Again, so why is the marriage contract with the parents?

The child can consent, right? Have them sign it.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Fatihah
Posts: 7,716
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9/6/2016 5:06:30 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/6/2016 4:51:21 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

As a mate? Yeah, that is correct, I have absolutely no desire to view a pre-pubescent child as a spouse. Islam, apparently, does. Good for Islam.

So why is the contract with the parents?

Again, so why is the marriage contract with the parents?

The child can consent, right? Have them sign it.

Response: Saying you cannot have a child as a spouse because they cannot consent means you cannot love a child because they are too stupid to consent. Secondly, the contract is with the child since there is no marriage without their consent. The parent is considered out of respect.

So to recap, you cannot love a child because they are stupid and you have no respect for their parents. Fortunately, we have the example of Muhammad who shows how to treat children and their parents. Unlike yours.