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Skeptical1
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9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

Assuming that you pray to a deity of some sort,what evidence do you have that there is some supernatural force responding to your requests?
MasonicSlayer
Posts: 2,281
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9/9/2016 11:37:47 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

Assuming that you pray to a deity of some sort,what evidence do you have that there is some supernatural force responding to your requests?

Several years back, a young Jedi unable to fight his own battles, and I'm getting beat up night after night by some pansi shadow clowns feasting on the abundance of my fear. Each night their numbers grew and I lacked the basic mental kungfu to show them what real power is. I needed help. I began to pray. Up shows the strongest force within the universe, and the problem was quickly handled. To show no fear when to know you have nothing to fear, is fearful only to those of little faith. Kill them with kindness, is to take an enemy and make him your friend, is to then never have to fight again. Of course a few weeks back I got into a fight with four guys trying to tax me and take my food. So power play I stand up cuz nobody taking nothing from me. Instead I give everything I had away. Yeah you want this, then take this that and everything else I got. But I don't give it to them, instead I gave it everyone who had nothing. The takers see this. The takers felt guilty. The takers then offered me what they had. So I take what they gave me and I regive to those without. To give is to receive, but only when given without expectation of reward. Try it sometime. The power of love- strongest force in the world.
Skeptical1
Posts: 649
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9/10/2016 12:08:06 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
Or, to put it another way:

Look not above, there is no answer there
Pray not, for no one listens to your prayer
Near is as near to God as any far
And here is just the same deceit as there

-Omar Kayyam
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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9/10/2016 12:09:39 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

Assuming that you pray to a deity of some sort,what evidence do you have that there is some supernatural force responding to your requests?

God can only fiddle a little at the cellular level. He can't do bone in one hit. Lol.
Skeptical1
Posts: 649
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9/10/2016 12:13:12 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/10/2016 12:09:39 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

Assuming that you pray to a deity of some sort,what evidence do you have that there is some supernatural force responding to your requests?

God can only fiddle a little at the cellular level. He can't do bone in one hit. Lol.

I'll pay that! Thread closed, too easy :)
janesix
Posts: 3,437
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9/10/2016 12:19:54 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

Assuming that you pray to a deity of some sort,what evidence do you have that there is some supernatural force responding to your requests?

The other day i realized i never see 216 which is weird since i always see 108 432 etc. so then the rest of the week i keep seeing 216. Recently i wondered how long my clock battery lasts and the next day the battery dies and my clock stops.

I wouldnt dare pray, that would be the ultimate in stupidity.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,566
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9/10/2016 1:35:21 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

Assuming that you pray to a deity of some sort,what evidence do you have that there is some supernatural force responding to your requests?

'Praying is like a rocking chair - it'll give you something to do, but it won't get you anywhere.'
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Skeptical1
Posts: 649
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9/10/2016 6:26:40 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/10/2016 1:35:21 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

Assuming that you pray to a deity of some sort,what evidence do you have that there is some supernatural force responding to your requests?

'Praying is like a rocking chair - it'll give you something to do, but it won't get you anywhere.'

Ha, that about sums it up. I see the other side have been strangely silent. Even the one who challenged me to make this thread.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,001
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9/10/2016 6:42:14 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

Here's some more anecdotes:

http://www.npr.org...

Any prayers involved?

If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
Skeptical1
Posts: 649
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9/10/2016 6:50:18 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/10/2016 6:42:14 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

Here's some more anecdotes:


http://www.npr.org...

Any prayers involved?


Not that I could see, but pretty cool. Wouldn't it be handy if we could just grow a new limb?
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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9/10/2016 7:48:50 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/10/2016 6:50:18 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/10/2016 6:42:14 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

Here's some more anecdotes:


http://www.npr.org...

Any prayers involved?


Not that I could see, but pretty cool. Wouldn't it be handy if we could just grow a new limb?

I think you are arguing against a straw man. I've never once maintained on here that God performs any miracles today. The Bible itself describes the ending of the miraculous age - and it turned out to end with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 67-70 - and any claims to the contrary are, have been, and will continue to be the vague and esoteric blooming from superstition and ignorance. I suppose the latest example of this would be the "miracles" attributed to that old hag, "Mother" Teresa. They are so dubious that their "confirmation" requires a biased and superstitious "committee" of Catholics! In short, to pray for some sort of miraculous intervention betrays a lack of faith, for faith comes by hearing - and hearing by the word of God - and the word of God teaches the very opposite of what these clowns are doing.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Skeptical1
Posts: 649
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9/10/2016 7:55:52 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/10/2016 7:48:50 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/10/2016 6:50:18 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/10/2016 6:42:14 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

Here's some more anecdotes:


http://www.npr.org...

Any prayers involved?


Not that I could see, but pretty cool. Wouldn't it be handy if we could just grow a new limb?

I think you are arguing against a straw man. I've never once maintained on here that God performs any miracles today. The Bible itself describes the ending of the miraculous age - and it turned out to end with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 67-70 - and any claims to the contrary are, have been, and will continue to be the vague and esoteric blooming from superstition and ignorance. I suppose the latest example of this would be the "miracles" attributed to that old hag, "Mother" Teresa. They are so dubious that their "confirmation" requires a biased and superstitious "committee" of Catholics! In short, to pray for some sort of miraculous intervention betrays a lack of faith, for faith comes by hearing - and hearing by the word of God - and the word of God teaches the very opposite of what these clowns are doing.

It's not a straw man, as my post was not directed specifically at you. There are plenty who still claim miracles, including but not restricted to Catholics and Pentecostals. But miracles weren't even the real point either. The real question is: what proof is there that prayer is anything other than wishful thinking?
loveymore
Posts: 64
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9/10/2016 8:48:12 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
The evidence might look for you in such a case. But since Jehovah, God knows your thoughts, before you even can tell him something.

It shows, only he defines all rules, how to be properly worshiped. By actions of his son, as Bible tells it, not by some other evidence, but via faith.

So if you ask for evidence, Jesus could give one of any sort, yet he did not. Satan still have a time to prove his point.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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9/10/2016 8:51:17 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/10/2016 8:48:12 AM, loveymore wrote:
The evidence might look for you in such a case. But since Jehovah, God knows your thoughts, before you even can tell him something.

It shows, only he defines all rules, how to be properly worshiped. By actions of his son, as Bible tells it, not by some other evidence, but via faith.

So if you ask for evidence, Jesus could give one of any sort, yet he did not. Satan still have a time to prove his point.

Another ignorant hoovian.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Skeptical1
Posts: 649
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9/10/2016 12:13:28 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/10/2016 8:48:12 AM, loveymore wrote:
The evidence might look for you in such a case. But since Jehovah, God knows your thoughts, before you even can tell him something.

It shows, only he defines all rules, how to be properly worshiped. By actions of his son, as Bible tells it, not by some other evidence, but via faith.

So if you ask for evidence, Jesus could give one of any sort, yet he did not. Satan still have a time to prove his point.

I'm not sure I understand the response. Perhaps absolute proof is too much to ask for. What could I possibly pray about, and what sort of answer should I expect, that would tell me with reasonable certainty I'm not just talking to myself?
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,001
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9/10/2016 1:19:16 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/10/2016 6:50:18 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/10/2016 6:42:14 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

Here's some more anecdotes:


http://www.npr.org...

Any prayers involved?


Not that I could see, but pretty cool. Wouldn't it be handy if we could just grow a new limb?

Yes!
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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9/10/2016 1:32:07 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/10/2016 7:55:52 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/10/2016 7:48:50 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/10/2016 6:50:18 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/10/2016 6:42:14 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

Here's some more anecdotes:


http://www.npr.org...

Any prayers involved?


Not that I could see, but pretty cool. Wouldn't it be handy if we could just grow a new limb?

I think you are arguing against a straw man. I've never once maintained on here that God performs any miracles today. The Bible itself describes the ending of the miraculous age - and it turned out to end with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 67-70 - and any claims to the contrary are, have been, and will continue to be the vague and esoteric blooming from superstition and ignorance. I suppose the latest example of this would be the "miracles" attributed to that old hag, "Mother" Teresa. They are so dubious that their "confirmation" requires a biased and superstitious "committee" of Catholics! In short, to pray for some sort of miraculous intervention betrays a lack of faith, for faith comes by hearing - and hearing by the word of God - and the word of God teaches the very opposite of what these clowns are doing.

It's not a straw man, as my post was not directed specifically at you. There are plenty who still claim miracles, including but not restricted to Catholics and Pentecostals. But miracles weren't even the real point either. The real question is: what proof is there that prayer is anything other than wishful thinking?

There is no proof of that, unless you can come up with some sort of acceptable proof that does not constitute a miracle.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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9/15/2016 3:24:39 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:

The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer,

I care nothing about anecdotes. I respect only the Bible. And I defend only the Bible.

God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

You mean a modern case right? Cause there are two cases mentioned in the Bible.

Why would this be?

Two answers. First, ALL modern cases of miracles are false. Second, because God no longer does miraculous healings anymore.

Assuming that you pray to a deity of some sort,what evidence do you have that there is some supernatural force responding to your requests?

God is not some supernatural force. Let's keep the atheist substitute rhetoric to a minimum shall we?

So that this thread doesn't go to pot, lets be precise. What would constitute "evidence" that God answers prayer? For example, if your dad was in another country, and you wanted to prove that you could ask him for stuff and have him answer, what would be evidence that he answered?

What would be evidence that he answered?
What would be evidence that he answered?
What would be evidence that he answered?

God is not a talisman, or an algorithm. You don't say a few words or perform a ritual and God then works like a voodoo spell. God is a person who can say, Yes, No" or "Wait" to a prayer. Running stats about how often he answered "yes" or "no" will not offer any information as God has free will and is omniscient. We cannot do a double blind experiment on God about the effectiveness of prayer.

Further, the Bible lays out guidelines for whom is acceptable to God and what sort of prayer is acceptable. God cannot be used as a genie or a pleasure bank. Nor will He be "tested" by fleas to prove to other fleas that He answers. He isn't a circus freak. He calls the shots, and its His way or the highway.

God can regrow a limb. As that already happens in nature, I don't think it would be the most effective miracle there could be. There are practical reason why miracles were performed, and practical reasons why they were stopped. God still does answer prayer though. I wouldn't be here if that were not true.

But to your question, you now have your answer.
Skeptical1
Posts: 649
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9/15/2016 3:40:03 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 3:24:39 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:

The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer,

I care nothing about anecdotes. I respect only the Bible. And I defend only the Bible.

God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

You mean a modern case right? Cause there are two cases mentioned in the Bible.

References please.


Why would this be?

Two answers. First, ALL modern cases of miracles are false. Second, because God no longer does miraculous healings anymore.

Assuming that you pray to a deity of some sort,what evidence do you have that there is some supernatural force responding to your requests?

God is not some supernatural force. Let's keep the atheist substitute rhetoric to a minimum shall we?

God isn't a force beyond nature? Well, it appears we DO agree on something.


So that this thread doesn't go to pot, lets be precise. What would constitute "evidence" that God answers prayer? For example, if your dad was in another country, and you wanted to prove that you could ask him for stuff and have him answer, what would be evidence that he answered?

What would be evidence that he answered?
What would be evidence that he answered?
What would be evidence that he answered?

God is not a talisman, or an algorithm. You don't say a few words or perform a ritual and God then works like a voodoo spell. God is a person who can say, Yes, No" or "Wait" to a prayer. Running stats about how often he answered "yes" or "no" will not offer any information as God has free will and is omniscient. We cannot do a double blind experiment on God about the effectiveness of prayer.

No, we can't. Since you don't believe in miracles (in present times), it's unlikely you could point to bleeding statues, or regrowing limbs, so let me ask this: can you give an example of how God has answered prayer in a way that provides any evidence of something that can't be explained by perfectly natural causes?


Further, the Bible lays out guidelines for whom is acceptable to God and what sort of prayer is acceptable. God cannot be used as a genie or a pleasure bank. Nor will He be "tested" by fleas to prove to other fleas that He answers. He isn't a circus freak. He calls the shots, and its His way or the highway.

Funny, he wasn't in the slightest bit reluctant to provide miracle upon miracle in Old and New Testament times. He was perfectly happy back then to be the circus freak. What a shame that in these days of video recorders and cellphones he doesn't pop out the occasional miracle. Two thousand years of "you'll just have to take my word for it."


God can regrow a limb. As that already happens in nature, I don't think it would be the most effective miracle there could be. There are practical reason why miracles were performed, and practical reasons why they were stopped. God still does answer prayer though. I wouldn't be here if that were not true.

Care to explain that?


But to your question, you now have your answer.

You're right, you've totally convinced me with your above discussion that prayer is real and it works. What was I thinking?
cedertree
Posts: 21
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9/15/2016 3:46:36 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
All the test have shown that prayer does nothing but help the person who prayed, much like meditation and yoga.
It proves that prayers are not answered.
I do recall something in the Bible that said if one prays in Jesus's name then it will be answered. Assuming the prayer was not selfish or trivial then by all rights (of the Bible) it should be answered. Time after time, even when these conditions are met the prayer is not answered. This is one more nail in the coffin of God or any deity.
There are way too many Internet posts that call for prayer to help suffering people.
So it would seem ( by the evidence) that one should pray for personal strength and peace (much like practicing Zen and/or yoga) then go help the people suffering with ones own 2 hands and willing heart because no deity will.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,566
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9/15/2016 4:33:44 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 3:24:39 PM, ethang5 wrote:

I care nothing about anecdotes. I respect only the Bible. And I defend only the Bible.

So, Ethan now makes this claim, yet we find he clearly oversteps that boundary when he makes claims that aren't even in the Bible, such as...

ALL modern cases of miracles are false. Second, because God no longer does miraculous healings anymore.

God is not some supernatural force.

God is not a talisman, or an algorithm. You don't say a few words or perform a ritual and God then works like a voodoo spell. God is a person who can say, Yes, No" or "Wait" to a prayer.

Further, the Bible lays out guidelines for whom is acceptable to God and what sort of prayer is acceptable. God cannot be used as a genie or a pleasure bank. Nor will He be "tested" by fleas to prove to other fleas that He answers. He isn't a circus freak.

God can regrow a limb. As that already happens in nature, I don't think it would be the most effective miracle there could be. There are practical reason why miracles were performed, and practical reasons why they were stopped. God still does answer prayer though. I wouldn't be here if that were not true.

Seems more that Ethan is defending Ethan.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,370
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9/16/2016 12:38:51 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

I agree with ethang5 here:

God can regrow a limb. As that already happens in nature, I don't think it would be the most effective miracle there could be.

I think the greatest miracle is the salvation of a human soul.

Now there is a documented case of a restored limb. I'm not claiming it happened for sure, but it is documented.

Vittorio Messori also lists and provides details of documents from the time which attest the miracle of Calanda, the most important ones being:[1]

The certificate set up by the notary Andr"u. The original document, which fortunately escaped destruction in the Spanish civil war, is on display in a glass case in the town hall of Zaragoza.
The minutes of the proceedings at Zaragoza. The original document, having been kept in the archives of Zaragoza chapter house, was handed over to a Benedictine monk, Father Lambert, in about 1930, who then took it to France. Unfortunately Lambert was killed in World War II and it is unknown what has become of the manuscript since. However, before it disappeared four printed editions had been published, the first of which in 1829. Two notaries certified that these corresponded exactly with original text.
Two certified copies of the minutes of the proceedings, set up at the same day as the original. They were signed and sealed by the same notaries. One was kept in the archives of the town of Zaragoza, but burnt in 1808 during the Napoleonic wars. The other is still extant and is kept in the archives of the Cathedral of the Pillar.
The report of Calanda"s local judge, set up on the morning immediately after the event. It has not survived to our time, but documentary traces confirm that there was such a report.

Casa-Museo Miguel Pellicer (Calanda)

Other documents of lesser importance:

The certificate of baptism of Miguel Juan Pellicer.
The registration of his admittance to the hospital of Valencia.
A small booklet written by a Carmelite monk, commissioned by the chapter house of the Pillar, and published in 1641.
Another book, published by a German doctor in 1642. The Jesuit father who gave the imprimatur added a declaration in which he affirmed that he personally knew Pellicer, first with one leg and then with two.
The account of the audience of Miguel Juan Pellicer at the royal court of Madrid.
A number of other documents which confirm the existence of other persons involved in the event.


https://en.wikipedia.org...

Of course when I bring this up, I get the usual feedback like "Why did this have to happen in the 17th century before photography?", "What? God healed a Catholic?", or just a flat out "This proves nothing. It's mere heresay".

But again, I'm not implying this definitely happened....but it is documented. And statements like "Why did God have to do this in the 17th century before photography?" shows me that skeptics will merely raise the bar. I had one guy tell me that it wouldn't have to be a miracle at all since some reptiles regrow limbs or tails (although this incident allegedly happened over night). If one demands a documented case, here it is. But when a documented case is given, the bar gets raised.

And of course there's the skeptics version (which would be natural).

https://skeptoid.com...

Keep in mind. The reason someone is a skeptic is because they don't know. if they did (in this case knowing a miracle didn't actually take place), they wouldn't be a skeptic.

So, do you really think that a modern day miracle in similar fashion would make much difference? Let's face it. If the heart's not there, any number of explanations can be conjured up even today.

Assuming that you pray to a deity of some sort,what evidence do you have that there is some supernatural force responding to your requests?
If you ask your uncle to send a $1,000, and you get a check in the mail with your uncle's name on it for that much, wouldn't you figure it came from your uncle?

The point? It might be a tough concept to grasp, but when someone says God (Jesus Christ) revealed Himself to them, it was done in such a way that there was no question it was God. I know the knee-jerk skeptical response would be "How would you know it wasn't an hallucination?" But if you can at least entertain the concept of God having that ability (after all He created a universe) just as you have that ability to introduce yourself in such a fashion that the person knows you're not an hallucination, it might help in your understanding.
Skeptical1
Posts: 649
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9/16/2016 1:42:15 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/16/2016 12:38:51 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

I agree with ethang5 here:

God can regrow a limb. As that already happens in nature, I don't think it would be the most effective miracle there could be.

OK then. Even though to our knowledge it only happens in other life forms, not humans or mammals. How about if we make it regrowing a head? Would that be an effective enough miracle?

I think the greatest miracle is the salvation of a human soul.

Now there is a documented case of a restored limb. I'm not claiming it happened for sure, but it is documented.

Vittorio Messori also lists and provides details of documents from the time which attest the miracle of Calanda, the most important ones being:[1]

The certificate set up by the notary Andr"u. The original document, which fortunately escaped destruction in the Spanish civil war, is on display in a glass case in the town hall of Zaragoza.
The minutes of the proceedings at Zaragoza. The original document, having been kept in the archives of Zaragoza chapter house, was handed over to a Benedictine monk, Father Lambert, in about 1930, who then took it to France. Unfortunately Lambert was killed in World War II and it is unknown what has become of the manuscript since. However, before it disappeared four printed editions had been published, the first of which in 1829. Two notaries certified that these corresponded exactly with original text.
Two certified copies of the minutes of the proceedings, set up at the same day as the original. They were signed and sealed by the same notaries. One was kept in the archives of the town of Zaragoza, but burnt in 1808 during the Napoleonic wars. The other is still extant and is kept in the archives of the Cathedral of the Pillar.
The report of Calanda"s local judge, set up on the morning immediately after the event. It has not survived to our time, but documentary traces confirm that there was such a report.

Casa-Museo Miguel Pellicer (Calanda)

Other documents of lesser importance:

The certificate of baptism of Miguel Juan Pellicer.
The registration of his admittance to the hospital of Valencia.
A small booklet written by a Carmelite monk, commissioned by the chapter house of the Pillar, and published in 1641.
Another book, published by a German doctor in 1642. The Jesuit father who gave the imprimatur added a declaration in which he affirmed that he personally knew Pellicer, first with one leg and then with two.
The account of the audience of Miguel Juan Pellicer at the royal court of Madrid.
A number of other documents which confirm the existence of other persons involved in the event.


https://en.wikipedia.org...

Of course when I bring this up, I get the usual feedback like "Why did this have to happen in the 17th century before photography?", "What? God healed a Catholic?", or just a flat out "This proves nothing. It's mere heresay".


But again, I'm not implying this definitely happened....but it is documented. And statements like "Why did God have to do this in the 17th century before photography?" shows me that skeptics will merely raise the bar. I had one guy tell me that it wouldn't have to be a miracle at all since some reptiles regrow limbs or tails (although this incident allegedly happened over night). If one demands a documented case, here it is. But when a documented case is given, the bar gets raised.

And of course there's the skeptics version (which would be natural).

https://skeptoid.com...

You've anticipated my objections fairly well.


Keep in mind. The reason someone is a skeptic is because they don't know. if they did (in this case knowing a miracle didn't actually take place), they wouldn't be a skeptic.

I'll grant you that there are nuances in terms of how far people who describe themselves as skeptics go in terms of how they regard lack of proof, but I don't think the variation is nearly as wide as it is among "believers".

For example, if I say (giving my personal opinion) that I am skeptical of God's existence, it doesn't mean that there is any doubt at all in my mind. All it means is that since the non-existence of anything is impossible to prove, I cannot claim such proof. Furthermore, since I'm fallible, there is the possibility I'm wrong, although I consider it unlikely. I'm also skeptical of the continued survival of Tasmanian tigers and the existence of bigfoot, to the extent that you could knock me over with a feather if either proved to be true, but I consider the chances of finding either of these better than the chances of finding God.


So, do you really think that a modern day miracle in similar fashion would make much difference? Let's face it. If the heart's not there, any number of explanations can be conjured up even today.

Assuming that you pray to a deity of some sort,what evidence do you have that there is some supernatural force responding to your requests?
If you ask your uncle to send a $1,000, and you get a check in the mail with your uncle's name on it for that much, wouldn't you figure it came from your uncle?

The point? It might be a tough concept to grasp, but when someone says God (Jesus Christ) revealed Himself to them, it was done in such a way that there was no question it was God. I know the knee-jerk skeptical response would be "How would you know it wasn't an hallucination?" But if you can at least entertain the concept of God having that ability (after all He created a universe) just as you have that ability to introduce yourself in such a fashion that the person knows you're not an hallucination, it might help in your understanding.

There are a great many people who have been through an experience similar to what you describe (I will count myself among them) who have subsequently decided years later that they were, in fact, mistaken. We could ask for a show of hands in this forum, and I'd bet I wouldn't be the only one. So my point is, if it is a hallucination (or to use a kinder term, misapprehension) for some, why not for all? I am willing to stake a small amount of money on the likelihood that not one person here who has had such an experience did so out of the blue, without ever having heard of God, or the message of salvation promoted by the churches. The expectation that such a thing could take place is indoctrinated into almost all occupants of most first world countries from a very young age.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,370
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9/16/2016 2:55:16 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/16/2016 1:42:15 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/16/2016 12:38:51 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

I agree with ethang5 here:

God can regrow a limb. As that already happens in nature, I don't think it would be the most effective miracle there could be.

OK then. Even though to our knowledge it only happens in other life forms, not humans or mammals. How about if we make it regrowing a head? Would that be an effective enough miracle?

If someone regrew a new head, what makes you think you'd attribute it to God?

I think the greatest miracle is the salvation of a human soul.


Now there is a documented case of a restored limb. I'm not claiming it happened for sure, but it is documented.


https://en.wikipedia.org...

Of course when I bring this up, I get the usual feedback like "Why did this have to happen in the 17th century before photography?", "What? God healed a Catholic?", or just a flat out "This proves nothing. It's mere heresay".


But again, I'm not implying this definitely happened....but it is documented. And statements like "Why did God have to do this in the 17th century before photography?" shows me that skeptics will merely raise the bar. I had one guy tell me that it wouldn't have to be a miracle at all since some reptiles regrow limbs or tails (although this incident allegedly happened over night). If one demands a documented case, here it is. But when a documented case is given, the bar gets raised.

And of course there's the skeptics version (which would be natural).

https://skeptoid.com...

You've anticipated my objections fairly well.

The main reason I brought it up was because it takes away from the notion that there are no purported cases of a regrown limb.

Keep in mind. The reason someone is a skeptic is because they don't know. if they did (in this case knowing a miracle didn't actually take place), they wouldn't be a skeptic.

I'll grant you that there are nuances in terms of how far people who describe themselves as skeptics go in terms of how they regard lack of proof, but I don't think the variation is nearly as wide as it is among "believers".

For example, if I say (giving my personal opinion) that I am skeptical of God's existence, it doesn't mean that there is any doubt at all in my mind. All it means is that since the non-existence of anything is impossible to prove, I cannot claim such proof. Furthermore, since I'm fallible, there is the possibility I'm wrong, although I consider it unlikely. I'm also skeptical of the continued survival of Tasmanian tigers and the existence of bigfoot, to the extent that you could knock me over with a feather if either proved to be true, but I consider the chances of finding either of these better than the chances of finding God.

I didn't mean the statement to suggest any lack of doubt. It's just that a skeptic for the most part can only give their opinion no matter how strong their conviction is. I'm sure said skeptic sincerely believes this account in Spain in the 17th century never happened. But he's not able to provide any proof other than personal speculation. He can't claim it didn't happen. Only that he is skeptical.

So, do you really think that a modern day miracle in similar fashion would make much difference? Let's face it. If the heart's not there, any number of explanations can be conjured up even today.

Assuming that you pray to a deity of some sort,what evidence do you have that there is some supernatural force responding to your requests?
If you ask your uncle to send a $1,000, and you get a check in the mail with your uncle's name on it for that much, wouldn't you figure it came from your uncle?

The point? It might be a tough concept to grasp, but when someone says God (Jesus Christ) revealed Himself to them, it was done in such a way that there was no question it was God. I know the knee-jerk skeptical response would be "How would you know it wasn't an hallucination?" But if you can at least entertain the concept of God having that ability (after all He created a universe) just as you have that ability to introduce yourself in such a fashion that the person knows you're not an hallucination, it might help in your understanding.

There are a great many people who have been through an experience similar to what you describe (I will count myself among them) who have subsequently decided years later that they were, in fact, mistaken. We could ask for a show of hands in this forum, and I'd bet I wouldn't be the only one. So my point is, if it is a hallucination (or to use a kinder term, misapprehension) for some, why not for all? I am willing to stake a small amount of money on the likelihood that not one person here who has had such an experience did so out of the blue, without ever having heard of God, or the message of salvation promoted by the churches. The expectation that such a thing could take place is indoctrinated into almost all occupants of most first world countries from a very young age.
I'm a bit confused by this specific statement:

"There are a great many people who have been through an experience similar to what you describe (I will count myself among them) who have subsequently decided years later that they were, in fact, mistaken."

I don't recall describing any experience. What similarity are you suggesting you had with myself or any other professed believer?

There are a number of former believers for certain. And this type of forum attracts former-believers-turned-atheist. But believing has different contextual meanings. I became a professed believer twice before becoming an actual no-turning-back believer. Someone might believe in the existence of Tasmanian Tigers and Bigfoot via testimonies of others, and then at some point change their mind. If they however see said creatures in a direct unmistakeable encounter, their ability to change their mind has been reduced drastically.

There's also the other type of individual from the one who has concluded they were wrong about the existence of God. There's the person who doesn't live the Christian life (at some point fell back into heavy drinking, sexual promiscuity, etc.), but does not (or cannot) recant their belief in God. This person is often referred to as a backslider. And I can tell you from experience, it's not a pleasant state of being. I would wager that if you talked to enough people, say, in bars and nightclubs, you would find a lot of these types. Probably more than you might think. They have no choice but to believe in the existence of God. Skepticism of God's existence is not their issue. Their issue is their weakness to various indulgences.

As far as being indoctrinated into belief, this may not always be the case. I'm running out of character space, so I'll just give a link for now.

http://www.net-burst.net...
bulproof
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9/16/2016 3:28:44 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/16/2016 12:38:51 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:

But if you can at least entertain the concept of God having that ability (after all He created a universe) just as you have that ability to introduce yourself in such a fashion that the person knows you're not an hallucination, it might help in your understanding.
Yes and if you can entertain the thought that somebody's god exists, then you can believe that said god can perform miracles and having accepted that it's quite easy to accept that infanticide has a just purpose for that miraculous god and from there the idea that destroying every living thing on a planet and sending them to eternal torture just becomes so easy that you don't even realise that you are brain dead.
Religion and Heroin mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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9/16/2016 4:28:43 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 3:40:03 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/15/2016 3:24:39 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:

The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer,

I care nothing about anecdotes. I respect only the Bible. And I defend only the Bible.

God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

You mean a modern case right? Cause there are two cases mentioned in the Bible.

References please.

Why would that be helpful?

Why would this be?

Two answers. First, ALL modern cases of miracles are false. Second, because God no longer does miraculous healings anymore.

Assuming that you pray to a deity of some sort,what evidence do you have that there is some supernatural force responding to your requests?

God is not some supernatural force. Let's keep the atheist substitute rhetoric to a minimum shall we?

God isn't a force beyond nature? Well, it appears we DO agree on something.

Well, you keep changing your phrases. You first said, "supernatural force" but are now saying, "force beyond nature". They aren't the same, and you're pretending they are MY phrases.

So that this thread doesn't go to pot, lets be precise. What would constitute "evidence" that God answers prayer? For example, if your dad was in another country, and you wanted to prove that you could ask him for stuff and have him answer, what would be evidence that he answered?

What would be evidence that he answered?
What would be evidence that he answered?
What would be evidence that he answered?

God is not a talisman, or an algorithm. You don't say a few words or perform a ritual and God then works like a voodoo spell. God is a person who can say, Yes, No" or "Wait" to a prayer. Running stats about how often he answered "yes" or "no" will not offer any information as God has free will and is omniscient. We cannot do a double blind experiment on God about the effectiveness of prayer.

No, we can't. Since you don't believe in miracles (in present times), it's unlikely you could point to bleeding statues, or regrowing limbs, so let me ask this: can you give an example of how God has answered prayer in a way that provides any evidence of something that can't be explained by perfectly natural causes?

Your question is both illogical AND unfair. First, it is illogical because it incorrectly assumed that if another process could explain the "answer" that would automatically mean God was the less plausible reason. Why?

Second, it's unfair because it is obvious you are prepared to disregard my personal testimony. But part of your skeptism is based on your personal experience of the absence of God. It is a question rigged no to give the truth but the results you desire.

Further, the Bible lays out guidelines for whom is acceptable to God and what sort of prayer is acceptable. God cannot be used as a genie or a pleasure bank. Nor will He be "tested" by fleas to prove to other fleas that He answers. He isn't a circus freak. He calls the shots, and its His way or the highway.

Funny, he wasn't in the slightest bit reluctant to provide miracle upon miracle in Old and New Testament times.

One of the reasons I'll beat you is that you are too busy looking for zingers you won't see me beat you with logic and facts. God had specific reasons for those miracles. When there no longer was a reason, there was no need of a miracle. God never performed miracles for the entertainment of others. He never was a circus freak.

He was perfectly happy back then to be the circus freak. What a shame that in these days of video recorders and cellphones he doesn't pop out the occasional miracle. Two thousand years of "you'll just have to take my word for it."

Lol, your bitterness that I'm not a miracle claiming Christian is palpable. But the Atheist is so un-self aware. What would he say if he was shown a video of a "miracle" ? But here he is, asking for one as if it would make the slightest difference.

God can regrow a limb. As that already happens in nature, I don't think it would be the most effective miracle there could be. There are practical reason why miracles were performed, and practical reasons why they were stopped. God still does answer prayer though. I wouldn't be here if that were not true.

Care to explain that?

No.

But to your question, you now have your answer.

You're right, you've totally convinced me with your above discussion that prayer is real and it works. What was I thinking?

I'm supposed to be convincing you that prayer works? You're a little full of yourself aren't you? I'm here to give biblical answers to your questions. I have some that. You've asked one question, even if I was attempting to convince you, you expect to be convinced after a single question?

Your attention span must be at least 3 minutes. That is long for a neo-atheist.

Now, either show my answer has some logical fault, or ask another question.
Omniverse
Posts: 973
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9/16/2016 4:42:28 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/16/2016 2:55:16 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/16/2016 1:42:15 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/16/2016 12:38:51 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/9/2016 10:33:21 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
The world is full of anecdotes telling how through the power of prayer, God has been persuaded to heal a loved one of cancer, or cure blindness. Yet there don't appear to be any purported cases of God restoring a missing limb in response to prayer.

Why would this be?

I agree with ethang5 here:

God can regrow a limb. As that already happens in nature, I don't think it would be the most effective miracle there could be.

OK then. Even though to our knowledge it only happens in other life forms, not humans or mammals. How about if we make it regrowing a head? Would that be an effective enough miracle?

If someone regrew a new head, what makes you think you'd attribute it to God?

I think the greatest miracle is the salvation of a human soul.


Now there is a documented case of a restored limb. I'm not claiming it happened for sure, but it is documented.


https://en.wikipedia.org...

Of course when I bring this up, I get the usual feedback like "Why did this have to happen in the 17th century before photography?", "What? God healed a Catholic?", or just a flat out "This proves nothing. It's mere heresay".


But again, I'm not implying this definitely happened....but it is documented. And statements like "Why did God have to do this in the 17th century before photography?" shows me that skeptics will merely raise the bar. I had one guy tell me that it wouldn't have to be a miracle at all since some reptiles regrow limbs or tails (although this incident allegedly happened over night). If one demands a documented case, here it is. But when a documented case is given, the bar gets raised.

And of course there's the skeptics version (which would be natural).

https://skeptoid.com...

You've anticipated my objections fairly well.

The main reason I brought it up was because it takes away from the notion that there are no purported cases of a regrown limb.

Keep in mind. The reason someone is a skeptic is because they don't know. if they did (in this case knowing a miracle didn't actually take place), they wouldn't be a skeptic.

I'll grant you that there are nuances in terms of how far people who describe themselves as skeptics go in terms of how they regard lack of proof, but I don't think the variation is nearly as wide as it is among "believers".

For example, if I say (giving my personal opinion) that I am skeptical of God's existence, it doesn't mean that there is any doubt at all in my mind. All it means is that since the non-existence of anything is impossible to prove, I cannot claim such proof. Furthermore, since I'm fallible, there is the possibility I'm wrong, although I consider it unlikely. I'm also skeptical of the continued survival of Tasmanian tigers and the existence of bigfoot, to the extent that you could knock me over with a feather if either proved to be true, but I consider the chances of finding either of these better than the chances of finding God.

I didn't mean the statement to suggest any lack of doubt. It's just that a skeptic for the most part can only give their opinion no matter how strong their conviction is. I'm sure said skeptic sincerely believes this account in Spain in the 17th century never happened. But he's not able to provide any proof other than personal speculation. He can't claim it didn't happen. Only that he is skeptical.

So, do you really think that a modern day miracle in similar fashion would make much difference? Let's face it. If the heart's not there, any number of explanations can be conjured up even today.

Assuming that you pray to a deity of some sort,what evidence do you have that there is some supernatural force responding to your requests?
If you ask your uncle to send a $1,000, and you get a check in the mail with your uncle's name on it for that much, wouldn't you figure it came from your uncle?

The point? It might be a tough concept to grasp, but when someone says God (Jesus Christ) revealed Himself to them, it was done in such a way that there was no question it was God. I know the knee-jerk skeptical response would be "How would you know it wasn't an hallucination?" But if you can at least entertain the concept of God having that ability (after all He created a universe) just as you have that ability to introduce yourself in such a fashion that the person knows you're not an hallucination, it might help in your understanding.

There are a great many people who have been through an experience similar to what you describe (I will count myself among them) who have subsequently decided years later that they were, in fact, mistaken. We could ask for a show of hands in this forum, and I'd bet I wouldn't be the only one. So my point is, if it is a hallucination (or to use a kinder term, misapprehension) for some, why not for all? I am willing to stake a small amount of money on the likelihood that not one person here who has had such an experience did so out of the blue, without ever having heard of God, or the message of salvation promoted by the churches. The expectation that such a thing could take place is indoctrinated into almost all occupants of most first world countries from a very young age.
I'm a bit confused by this specific statement:

"There are a great many people who have been through an experience similar to what you describe (I will count myself among them) who have subsequently decided years later that they were, in fact, mistaken."

I don't recall describing any experience. What similarity are you suggesting you had with myself or any other professed believer?

(...)

The point remains.

Isn't it just terribly convenient that the frequency of alleged Christian miracles of this magnitude has drastically decreased over 20 centuries? What is more probable, that said reported miracle is a misapprehension or that it really happened? And why aren't you taking the countless and equally spectacular miracles purportedly happening today, as of now, in India, involving mystics and thousands of followers, or Tibetan monks and their acolytes, why aren't you taking them at face value then?

You could also ask the forum Muslims. They will run rings around any Christian, miracle- allegations wise.
ethang5
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9/16/2016 4:46:56 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 4:33:44 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/15/2016 3:24:39 PM, ethang5 wrote:

I care nothing about anecdotes. I respect only the Bible. And I defend only the Bible.

So, Ethan now makes this claim, yet we find he clearly oversteps that boundary when he makes claims that aren't even in the Bible, such as...

ALL modern cases of miracles are false. Second, because God no longer does miraculous healings anymore.

God is not some supernatural force.

God is not a talisman, or an algorithm. You don't say a few words or perform a ritual and God then works like a voodoo spell. God is a person who can say, Yes, No" or "Wait" to a prayer.

Further, the Bible lays out guidelines for whom is acceptable to God and what sort of prayer is acceptable. God cannot be used as a genie or a pleasure bank. Nor will He be "tested" by fleas to prove to other fleas that He answers. He isn't a circus freak.

God can regrow a limb. As that already happens in nature, I don't think it would be the most effective miracle there could be. There are practical reason why miracles were performed, and practical reasons why they were stopped. God still does answer prayer though. I wouldn't be here if that were not true.

You simply don't know the Bible. It is the Bible which teaches that miracles would cease. It is the Bible which gave the reason for miracles. So we can know that when those reason cease, the need for miracles would too.

God never did miracles just to show His power. You don't know what's in or not in the Bible. You aren't qualified to determine what claims are in there or not in there.

Seems more that Ethan is defending Ethan.

I see how it can seem so to one ignorant of what's in the Bible. What I don't see is why one would remain ignorant while insisting on debating the Bible.

Militancy perhaps?
FaustianJustice
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9/16/2016 4:52:06 PM
Posted: 2 months ago

God never did miracles just to show His power.

I have no doubt you have semantics on tap, but...

Showdown at Mount Carmel

Elijah"s greatest public miracle involved a contest with the 450 prophets of Baal and the 400 prophets of Asherah on Mount Carmel. Elijah invited these false prophets and all Israel to a demonstration to show that Baal had no power at all against the God of Israel. The outcome would demonstrate who served the true God (1 Kings 18:19-40).

To show God"s power, Elijah told the large crowd, "I alone am left a prophet of the LORD; but Baal"s prophets are four hundred and fifty men" (1 Kings 18:22). Elijah continued, "How long will you falter between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him" (1 Kings 18:21). God would give convincing proof that day that He was Israel"s only true God.

http://lifehopeandtruth.com...
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
DanneJeRusse
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9/16/2016 4:59:21 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/16/2016 12:38:51 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:

The point? It might be a tough concept to grasp, but when someone says God (Jesus Christ) revealed Himself to them, it was done in such a way that there was no question it was God. I know the knee-jerk skeptical response would be "How would you know it wasn't an hallucination?" But if you can at least entertain the concept of God having that ability (after all He created a universe) just as you have that ability to introduce yourself in such a fashion that the person knows you're not an hallucination, it might help in your understanding.

Sorry Rod, but that is completely unacceptable behavior for an alleged God who created a universe.

What you're saying, and what most theists say, is that God picks an individual to go round delivering his message (prophet, messenger), then he selectively visits and reveals himself to certain people. Seriously, this is not how an intelligent being would operate if it wants to reveal it's message or himself to the world. And, unless God starts using his intelligence to reveal himself to all the world equally, there is no reason to believe he exists based on some book written centuries ago and the testimony of the select few folks who claim God revealed himself to them.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
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