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any scripture that says Jesus is michael???

DanneJeRusse
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9/14/2016 1:35:08 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 12:10:33 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I can't find a single one...

Revelation 12:7-9

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels [going forth] to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;

8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
MasonicSlayer
Posts: 2,358
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9/14/2016 2:28:41 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 1:35:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/14/2016 12:10:33 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I can't find a single one...

Revelation 12:7-9

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels [going forth] to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;

8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

I'm not sure how that answers the question to the OP, but I've never much cared to answer the lesser questions to life when there exist the larger queries to wonder. Who's good and who's bad is always the biggest perplexing maze to holden the mind at its highest level of contemplation. To say man is born to renew its faith in trust of God, is then sent to live amongst the dwelling of the deceiver, is now an answer not so black and white that muddles the truth to grey, if you can get to thinking about it. What I've come to settle the interest is no matter the answer to each arrived, it's the ways in which it was achieved becomes greater the meaning. The paths to reasoning hold more value than the answers we give. If you believe something is right, but for the wrong reasons, that something becomes insoluble in virtue even if right was the truth all the way. Aloha from Hell. Interesting book.
bulproof
Posts: 25,273
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9/14/2016 2:49:14 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 12:10:33 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I can't find a single one...

Read a hoovian bible.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
graceofgod
Posts: 5,096
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9/14/2016 4:41:40 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 1:35:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/14/2016 12:10:33 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I can't find a single one...

Revelation 12:7-9

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels [going forth] to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;

8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

sorry you will have to point out where it says michael is Jesus, I don't see it there..
Artaxerxes
Posts: 181
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9/14/2016 6:53:28 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 12:10:33 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I can't find a single one...
There is not one verse for this doctrinal teaching. Just like there is not one verse that people use to point to the doctrine of the trinity. Don't be naive. Read 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
"because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."

Did Jesus buy a voice changer or is he actually the archangel? I guess you also believe that God has two separate armies of angels, right? If not, how do you interpret Revelation 12:7 and Revelation 19:14-16? The army in Rev. 12 is led by Michael. The army in Rev. 19 is led by Jesus.
graceofgod
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9/14/2016 7:29:18 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 6:53:28 PM, Artaxerxes wrote:
At 9/14/2016 12:10:33 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I can't find a single one...
There is not one verse for this doctrinal teaching. Just like there is not one verse that people use to point to the doctrine of the trinity. Don't be naive. Read 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
"because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."

Did Jesus buy a voice changer or is he actually the archangel? I guess you also believe that God has two separate armies of angels, right? If not, how do you interpret Revelation 12:7 and Revelation 19:14-16? The army in Rev. 12 is led by Michael. The army in Rev. 19 is led by Jesus.

not only is there no one verse about michael being Jesus there is no biblical principal for an angel to save anyone,...

so when did michael become Jesus...

what happened to michael while he was Jesus...

why didn't Jesus tell his disciples who he was ??

why didn't he correct one when he was referred to as my Lord and my God..

why would God ask the angels to worship an angel, the last time that happened lucifer was cast down for it...??

none of it makes sense..

there is no other name by which salvation can come, that is Jesus not an angel...
Artaxerxes
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9/14/2016 8:01:43 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 7:29:18 PM, graceofgod wrote:

Did Jesus buy a voice changer or is he actually the archangel? I guess you also believe that God has two separate armies of angels, right? If not, how do you interpret Revelation 12:7 and Revelation 19:14-16? The army in Rev. 12 is led by Michael. The army in Rev. 19 is led by Jesus.

not only is there no one verse about michael being Jesus there is no biblical principal for an angel to save anyone,...
There is no Biblical principle against it either. Many Jews claim there is no Biblical principle for the new covenant or a second return of the Messiah. Yet I do not believe those are beliefs you are prepared to give up.

so when did michael become Jesus...
When he came to earth as a man and was named Jesus.

what happened to michael while he was Jesus...
Read the New Testament. It tells you what Jesus did while on earth.

why didn't Jesus tell his disciples who he was ??
He did. He told them that he was the Christ and Son of God. Note that he never told them that he was God. He may never have said: "Hey, I am Michael the Archangel." That, however, was not necessary. It was revealed to them at a later date, as is seen in Scripture. Paul does a great job at drawing the parallels.

why didn't he correct one when he was referred to as my Lord and my God..
You mean Thomas in John 20:28? I will quote myself from a debate I did on the trinity:
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." (KJV)

A Trinitarian will state that scripture displays proof that Jesus is indeed God. However, they are ignoring all of the context in doing so. First, let's define what "god" really means in this verse if it is not referring to the "true God" (John 17:3). Psalm 82:1-6 shows that "gods" can be used to describe powerful men or judges. This also applies to Jesus.

Looking further into the context, we will realize that Thomas had already heard that the Father was "the only true God" (John 17:3). Then, after Jesus was resurrected, he said that he was ascending to "my God and your God" (John 20:17). It was after Thomas had touched Christ that John states, in John 20:31:
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (KJV)

So there is no reason to believe that Thomas thought Jesus was the "true God," but rather just a "god," which is confirmed in John 1:1.

why would God ask the angels to worship an angel, the last time that happened lucifer was cast down for it...??
Which verse are you speaking of?

there is no other name by which salvation can come, that is Jesus not an angel...
Jesus is an angel. I hate to break it to you.
graceofgod
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9/14/2016 8:21:17 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 8:01:43 PM, Artaxerxes wrote:
At 9/14/2016 7:29:18 PM, graceofgod wrote:

Did Jesus buy a voice changer or is he actually the archangel? I guess you also believe that God has two separate armies of angels, right? If not, how do you interpret Revelation 12:7 and Revelation 19:14-16? The army in Rev. 12 is led by Michael. The army in Rev. 19 is led by Jesus.

not only is there no one verse about michael being Jesus there is no biblical principal for an angel to save anyone,...
There is no Biblical principle against it either. Many Jews claim there is no Biblical principle for the new covenant or a second return of the Messiah. Yet I do not believe those are beliefs you are prepared to give up.

so when did michael become Jesus...
When he came to earth as a man and was named Jesus.
so an angel became a man?? what happened to the angel??
what happened to michael while he was Jesus...
Read the New Testament. It tells you what Jesus did while on earth.
no when michael became Jesus where did michael go??
why didn't Jesus tell his disciples who he was ??
He did. He told them that he was the Christ and Son of God. Note that he never told them that he was God. He may never have said: "Hey, I am Michael the Archangel." That, however, was not necessary. It was revealed to them at a later date, as is seen in Scripture. Paul does a great job at drawing the parallels.
so he lied to them... only begotten son, not a created angel
why didn't he correct one when he was referred to as my Lord and my God..
You mean Thomas in John 20:28? I will quote myself from a debate I did on the trinity:
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." (KJV)
he didn't put him down for calling him God why not??
A Trinitarian will state that scripture displays proof that Jesus is indeed God. However, they are ignoring all of the context in doing so. First, let's define what "god" really means in this verse if it is not referring to the "true God" (John 17:3). Psalm 82:1-6 shows that "gods" can be used to describe powerful men or judges. This also applies to Jesus.

Looking further into the context, we will realize that Thomas had already heard that the Father was "the only true God" (John 17:3). Then, after Jesus was resurrected, he said that he was ascending to "my God and your God" (John 20:17). It was after Thomas had touched Christ that John states, in John 20:31:
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (KJV)
utter tosh, he realised Jesus was God and Jesus accepted the statement...
So there is no reason to believe that Thomas thought Jesus was the "true God," but rather just a "god," which is confirmed in John 1:1.

why would God ask the angels to worship an angel, the last time that happened lucifer was cast down for it...??
Which verse are you speaking of?
you don't know your bible??
there is no other name by which salvation can come, that is Jesus not an angel...
Jesus is an angel. I hate to break it to you.

and is there an angel in the bible that can save you???

how come michael dare not rebuke the devil yet Jesus did??/

how come God the father is the alpha and the omega, a title also given to Jesus???

jn 1 vs3 how come Jesus says he created all things, in isa 44 vs 24 God said he created the heavens and the earth and asks who was with me when the heavens and the earth were made, how can this be as if Jesus was created by God he would have been with God when everything was created??

Col 1:16, in talking about Jesus, says that "... All [other] things have been created through him and FOR HIM". If Jesus was Michael the Archangel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all things for himself? Isa 43:7 says God created "everyone ... for my OWN glory...".
Artaxerxes
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9/14/2016 11:33:33 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 8:21:17 PM, graceofgod wrote:

and is there an angel in the bible that can save you???
Yes. Specifically, Jesus.

how come michael dare not rebuke the devil yet Jesus did??/
Michael did rebuke the devil, as Michael is Jesus.

how come God the father is the alpha and the omega, a title also given to Jesus???
The title is never given to Jesus.

jn 1 vs3 how come Jesus says he created all things, in isa 44 vs 24 God said he created the heavens and the earth and asks who was with me when the heavens and the earth were made, how can this be as if Jesus was created by God he would have been with God when everything was created??
John 1:3 does not say Jesus made anything. It says that it was through Jesus that all things were created. Same message is given in Colossians 1. Jesus was with God when the heavens and earth were made. After all, all things were made through Jesus. Isaiah 44:24 does not pose the question that you are asking. Jesus was the first creation of God (Colossians 1:15).

Col 1:16, in talking about Jesus, says that "... All [other] things have been created through him and FOR HIM". If Jesus was Michael the Archangel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all things for himself? Isa 43:7 says God created "everyone ... for my OWN glory...".
Indeed, Michael the Archangel, or Jesus, was the first creation of God (which is stated in the very verse before you quoted). Why does the creation not glorify the Father if He used an instrument in creation?
graceofgod
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9/15/2016 7:25:36 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 11:33:33 PM, Artaxerxes wrote:
At 9/14/2016 8:21:17 PM, graceofgod wrote:

and is there an angel in the bible that can save you???
Yes. Specifically, Jesus.please read jn 1 vs3 carefully
how come michael dare not rebuke the devil yet Jesus did??/
Michael did rebuke the devil, as Michael is Jesus.
when michael was michael he fare not rebuke the devil, why is that, when as a man he could....
how come God the father is the alpha and the omega, a title also given to Jesus???
The title is never given to Jesus.
I am the alpah and the omega, the first and the last, the one who died and rose again, so unless you think God the father died and rose again, the scripture is clear...
jn 1 vs3 how come Jesus says he created all things, in isa 44 vs 24 God said he created the heavens and the earth and asks who was with me when the heavens and the earth were made, how can this be as if Jesus was created by God he would have been with God when everything was created??
John 1:3 does not say Jesus made anything. It says that it was through Jesus that all things were created. Same message is given in Colossians 1. Jesus was with God when the heavens and earth were made. After all, all things were made through Jesus. Isaiah 44:24 does not pose the question that you are asking. Jesus was the first creation of God (Colossians 1:15).

Col 1:16, in talking about Jesus, says that "... All [other] things have been created through him and FOR HIM". If Jesus was Michael the Archangel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all things for himself? Isa 43:7 says God created "everyone ... for my OWN glory...".
Indeed, Michael the Archangel, or Jesus, was the first creation of God (which is stated in the very verse before you quoted). Why does the creation not glorify the Father if He used an instrument in creation?

begotten son... not a created angel..

how many angels were told to worship other angels in the bible??

In the NWT, every time the Greek word "proskuneo" is used in reference to God, it is translated as "worship" (Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, 19:4, Jn 4:20, etc.). Every time "proskuneo" is used in reference to Jesus, it is translated as "obeisance" (Mt 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, Lk 24:52, Heb 1:6, etc.), even though it is the same word in the Greek (see Gr-Engl Interlinear). Especially compare the Greek word "prosekunhsan" used with reference to God in Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, and 19:4 and used with reference to Christ in Mt 14:33, 28:9, and 28:17. What is the reason for this inconsistency? If the NWT was consistent in translating "proskuneo" as "worship", how would the verses above referring to Christ read?
desmac
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9/15/2016 7:33:48 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 8:21:17 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/14/2016 8:01:43 PM, Artaxerxes wrote:
At 9/14/2016 7:29:18 PM, graceofgod wrote:

Did Jesus buy a voice changer or is he actually the archangel? I guess you also believe that God has two separate armies of angels, right? If not, how do you interpret Revelation 12:7 and Revelation 19:14-16? The army in Rev. 12 is led by Michael. The army in Rev. 19 is led by Jesus.

not only is there no one verse about michael being Jesus there is no biblical principal for an angel to save anyone,...
There is no Biblical principle against it either. Many Jews claim there is no Biblical principle for the new covenant or a second return of the Messiah. Yet I do not believe those are beliefs you are prepared to give up.

so when did michael become Jesus...
When he came to earth as a man and was named Jesus.
so an angel became a man?? what happened to the angel??
what happened to michael while he was Jesus...
Read the New Testament. It tells you what Jesus did while on earth.
no when michael became Jesus where did michael go??
why didn't Jesus tell his disciples who he was ??
He did. He told them that he was the Christ and Son of God. Note that he never told them that he was God. He may never have said: "Hey, I am Michael the Archangel." That, however, was not necessary. It was revealed to them at a later date, as is seen in Scripture. Paul does a great job at drawing the parallels.
so he lied to them... only begotten son, not a created angel
why didn't he correct one when he was referred to as my Lord and my God..
You mean Thomas in John 20:28? I will quote myself from a debate I did on the trinity:
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." (KJV)
he didn't put him down for calling him God why not??
A Trinitarian will state that scripture displays proof that Jesus is indeed God. However, they are ignoring all of the context in doing so. First, let's define what "god" really means in this verse if it is not referring to the "true God" (John 17:3). Psalm 82:1-6 shows that "gods" can be used to describe powerful men or judges. This also applies to Jesus.

Looking further into the context, we will realize that Thomas had already heard that the Father was "the only true God" (John 17:3). Then, after Jesus was resurrected, he said that he was ascending to "my God and your God" (John 20:17). It was after Thomas had touched Christ that John states, in John 20:31:
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (KJV)
utter tosh, he realised Jesus was God and Jesus accepted the statement...
So there is no reason to believe that Thomas thought Jesus was the "true God," but rather just a "god," which is confirmed in John 1:1.

why would God ask the angels to worship an angel, the last time that happened lucifer was cast down for it...??
Which verse are you speaking of?
you don't know your bible??
there is no other name by which salvation can come, that is Jesus not an angel...
Jesus is an angel. I hate to break it to you.

and is there an angel in the bible that can save you???

how come michael dare not rebuke the devil yet Jesus did??/

how come God the father is the alpha and the omega, a title also given to Jesus???

jn 1 vs3 how come Jesus says he created all things, in isa 44 vs 24 God said he created the heavens and the earth and asks who was with me when the heavens and the earth were made, how can this be as if Jesus was created by God he would have been with God when everything was created??

Col 1:16, in talking about Jesus, says that "... All [other] things have been created through him and FOR HIM". If Jesus was Michael the Archangel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all things for himself? Isa 43:7 says God created "everyone ... for my OWN glory...".

Do what all religionists do, use whichever bits of scripture that suit your own agenda. As it is all make believe it dosn't matter how much you alter the storyline.
loveymore
Posts: 64
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9/15/2016 9:13:33 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. And Zacharias was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: because thy supplication is heard, and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
brontoraptor
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9/15/2016 4:07:18 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 7:29:18 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/14/2016 6:53:28 PM, Artaxerxes wrote:
At 9/14/2016 12:10:33 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I can't find a single one...
There is not one verse for this doctrinal teaching. Just like there is not one verse that people use to point to the doctrine of the trinity. Don't be naive. Read 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
"because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."

Did Jesus buy a voice changer or is he actually the archangel? I guess you also believe that God has two separate armies of angels, right? If not, how do you interpret Revelation 12:7 and Revelation 19:14-16? The army in Rev. 12 is led by Michael. The army in Rev. 19 is led by Jesus.

not only is there no one verse about michael being Jesus there is no biblical principal for an angel to save anyone,...

so when did michael become Jesus...

what happened to michael while he was Jesus...

why didn't Jesus tell his disciples who he was ??

why didn't he correct one when he was referred to as my Lord and my God..

why would God ask the angels to worship an angel, the last time that happened lucifer was cast down for it...??

none of it makes sense..

there is no other name by which salvation can come, that is Jesus not an angel...

If it were true it wouldn't say he has a name that only he knows. JW is a cult from hell.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
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9/15/2016 4:09:13 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
Revelation 19:12
His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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9/15/2016 4:13:07 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 4:41:40 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/14/2016 1:35:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/14/2016 12:10:33 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I can't find a single one...

Revelation 12:7-9

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels [going forth] to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;

8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

sorry you will have to point out where it says michael is Jesus, I don't see it there..

It should be easy to see that there is no other entity that Michael could possibly be other than Jesus. Remember, Jesus Christ translated simply means, "Messiah", so it's more of a title than it is a name.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Eagle2
Posts: 14
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9/15/2016 4:46:28 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 4:07:18 PM, brontoraptor wrote:+
If it were true it wouldn't say he has a name that only he knows. JW is a cult from hell.

Witnesses want to use 1Thes 4:16 to say Jesus has the voice of an archangel, therefore He is an archangel.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (ESV Strong's) 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

If the Lord, being an archangel, descends with the voice of an archangel, is like saying, "the human will enter with the voice of a human", which makes no sense at all.

You're right, they are a cult!
Eagle2
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9/15/2016 4:48:24 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 4:13:07 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
It should be easy to see that there is no other entity that Michael could possibly be other than Jesus. Remember, Jesus Christ translated simply means, "Messiah", so it's more of a title than it is a name.

Yes there is, Michael. Why does Michael need to be another entity?
brontoraptor
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9/15/2016 4:48:40 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 4:46:28 PM, Eagle2 wrote:
At 9/15/2016 4:07:18 PM, brontoraptor wrote:+
If it were true it wouldn't say he has a name that only he knows. JW is a cult from hell.

Witnesses want to use 1Thes 4:16 to say Jesus has the voice of an archangel, therefore He is an archangel.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (ESV Strong's) 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

If the Lord, being an archangel, descends with the voice of an archangel, is like saying, "the human will enter with the voice of a human", which makes no sense at all.

You're right, they are a cult!

Satan led angels into battle. Doesn't make him Jesus.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
Eagle2
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9/15/2016 4:57:33 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 6:53:28 PM, Artaxerxes wrote:
Did Jesus buy a voice changer or is he actually the archangel? I guess you also believe that God has two separate armies of angels, right? If not, how do you interpret Revelation 12:7 and Revelation 19:14-16? The army in Rev. 12 is led by Michael. The army in Rev. 19 is led by Jesus.

When a judge enters the courtroom, he is announced with a cry of command (ALL RISE), with the voice of a bailiff, does that make the bailiff and the judge the same person?

Such a shallow view of the armies! Look at our military, we can say, "the general and his troops went to war", we can also say, "the captain and his troops went to war". Ultimately they are the generals troops, but when the captain leads them, they are his troops. Or, do you think that when the captain takes the troops, he says, "me and the generals troops went to war"?
Eagle2
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9/15/2016 4:59:58 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 4:48:40 PM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/15/2016 4:46:28 PM, Eagle2 wrote:
At 9/15/2016 4:07:18 PM, brontoraptor wrote:+
If it were true it wouldn't say he has a name that only he knows. JW is a cult from hell.

Witnesses want to use 1Thes 4:16 to say Jesus has the voice of an archangel, therefore He is an archangel.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (ESV Strong's) 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

If the Lord, being an archangel, descends with the voice of an archangel, is like saying, "the human will enter with the voice of a human", which makes no sense at all.

You're right, they are a cult!

Satan led angels into battle. Doesn't make him Jesus.

Exactly! Michael leads the angels, doesn't make him Jesus. Jesus is the "King", Michael is "ONE" of the chief princes.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,096
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9/15/2016 5:22:14 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 4:13:07 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/14/2016 4:41:40 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/14/2016 1:35:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/14/2016 12:10:33 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I can't find a single one...

Revelation 12:7-9

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels [going forth] to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;

8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

sorry you will have to point out where it says michael is Jesus, I don't see it there..

It should be easy to see that there is no other entity that Michael could possibly be other than Jesus. Remember, Jesus Christ translated simply means, "Messiah", so it's more of a title than it is a name.

michael was just an angel, he was never the only begotten son of God...

michael cannot be Jesus..
DanneJeRusse
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9/15/2016 5:28:44 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 5:22:14 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/15/2016 4:13:07 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/14/2016 4:41:40 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/14/2016 1:35:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/14/2016 12:10:33 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I can't find a single one...

Revelation 12:7-9

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels [going forth] to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;

8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

sorry you will have to point out where it says michael is Jesus, I don't see it there..

It should be easy to see that there is no other entity that Michael could possibly be other than Jesus. Remember, Jesus Christ translated simply means, "Messiah", so it's more of a title than it is a name.

michael was just an angel

What angel? There is no mention of any other entities existing other than God and Jesus.

he was never the only begotten son of God...

michael cannot be Jesus..

Yes, he can and he obviously is Michael. Jesus is just a title, "Messiah" directly translated.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Artaxerxes
Posts: 181
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9/15/2016 6:09:49 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 4:57:33 PM, Eagle2 wrote:

When a judge enters the courtroom, he is announced with a cry of command (ALL RISE), with the voice of a bailiff, does that make the bailiff and the judge the same person?
Oh, so now both Jesus and Michael the Archangel can both resurrect the dead? Hmmm, sounds awfully heretical if you ask me. Either you have to admit that Jesus is the Archangel because he has his voice. Or you are suggesting that Michael the Archangel has the power to resurrect all of the dead.

Such a shallow view of the armies! Look at our military, we can say, "the general and his troops went to war", we can also say, "the captain and his troops went to war". Ultimately they are the generals troops, but when the captain leads them, they are his troops. Or, do you think that when the captain takes the troops, he says, "me and the generals troops went to war"?
Read the passages and tell me if you draw the same analogy.
Artaxerxes
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9/15/2016 6:10:23 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 7:25:36 AM, graceofgod wrote:

begotten son... not a created angel..
Yeah, and you see no issue with Jesus being both "begotten" and eternal.

how many angels were told to worship other angels in the bible??
You reworded your previous question. Last time you asked the following:
"why would God ask the angels to worship an angel, the last time that happened lucifer was cast down for it...??"

I responded with an inquiry:
"Which verse are you speaking of?"

In the NWT, every time the Greek word "proskuneo" is used in reference to God, it is translated as "worship" (Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, 19:4, Jn 4:20, etc.). Every time "proskuneo" is used in reference to Jesus, it is translated as "obeisance" (Mt 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, Lk 24:52, Heb 1:6, etc.), even though it is the same word in the Greek (see Gr-Engl Interlinear). Especially compare the Greek word "prosekunhsan" used with reference to God in Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, and 19:4 and used with reference to Christ in Mt 14:33, 28:9, and 28:17. What is the reason for this inconsistency? If the NWT was consistent in translating "proskuneo" as "worship", how would the verses above referring to Christ read?
The reason why it is translated differently depends on context. Take any legitimate Greek lexicon and look up the word proskuneo. It can mean worship, as in the the worship given to the Father. However, it may also mean to bow down before and pay respect to. Or, to give obeisance. I am quite sure the Kingdom Interlinear (which you referenced, so I assume you have read it or own a copy) explains this translation process.
Eagle2
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9/15/2016 7:46:46 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 6:09:49 PM, Artaxerxes wrote:
Oh, so now both Jesus and Michael the Archangel can both resurrect the dead? Hmmm, sounds awfully heretical if you ask me. Either you have to admit that Jesus is the Archangel because he has his voice. Or you are suggesting that Michael the Archangel has the power to resurrect all of the dead.

Where did "resurrecting the dead" come from? We're talking about Jesus being/not being Michael.
Artaxerxes
Posts: 181
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9/15/2016 8:38:28 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 7:46:46 PM, Eagle2 wrote:

Where did "resurrecting the dead" come from? We're talking about Jesus being/not being Michael.
Jesus came with the voice of an archangel to resurrect the dead. So are both Jesus and Michael able to resurrect the dead? Or are they perhaps the same person?
graceofgod
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9/15/2016 10:02:49 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 6:10:23 PM, Artaxerxes wrote:
At 9/15/2016 7:25:36 AM, graceofgod wrote:

begotten son... not a created angel..
Yeah, and you see no issue with Jesus being both "begotten" and eternal.

how many angels were told to worship other angels in the bible??
You reworded your previous question. Last time you asked the following:
"why would God ask the angels to worship an angel, the last time that happened lucifer was cast down for it...??"

I responded with an inquiry:
"Which verse are you speaking of?"

In the NWT, every time the Greek word "proskuneo" is used in reference to God, it is translated as "worship" (Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, 19:4, Jn 4:20, etc.). Every time "proskuneo" is used in reference to Jesus, it is translated as "obeisance" (Mt 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, Lk 24:52, Heb 1:6, etc.), even though it is the same word in the Greek (see Gr-Engl Interlinear). Especially compare the Greek word "prosekunhsan" used with reference to God in Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, and 19:4 and used with reference to Christ in Mt 14:33, 28:9, and 28:17. What is the reason for this inconsistency? If the NWT was consistent in translating "proskuneo" as "worship", how would the verses above referring to Christ read?
The reason why it is translated differently depends on context. Take any legitimate Greek lexicon and look up the word proskuneo. It can mean worship, as in the the worship given to the Father. However, it may also mean to bow down before and pay respect to. Or, to give obeisance. I am quite sure the Kingdom Interlinear (which you referenced, so I assume you have read it or own a copy) explains this translation process.

no the same word is changed because the jw's deny the deity of Jesus, in the same way the nwt adds a god to scripture in john 1.1, yet the word says there we no gods formed before me or after me...

still no answer for God telling the angels to worship Jesus...

or why Jesus is referred to as the alpha and the omega???
graceofgod
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9/15/2016 10:06:01 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 5:28:44 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/15/2016 5:22:14 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/15/2016 4:13:07 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/14/2016 4:41:40 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/14/2016 1:35:08 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/14/2016 12:10:33 PM, graceofgod wrote:
I can't find a single one...

Revelation 12:7-9

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels [going forth] to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;

8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

sorry you will have to point out where it says michael is Jesus, I don't see it there..

It should be easy to see that there is no other entity that Michael could possibly be other than Jesus. Remember, Jesus Christ translated simply means, "Messiah", so it's more of a title than it is a name.

michael was just an angel

What angel? There is no mention of any other entities existing other than God and Jesus.

he was never the only begotten son of God...

michael cannot be Jesus..

Yes, he can and he obviously is Michael. Jesus is just a title, "Messiah" directly translated.

but michael is an angel not an only begotten son...

it says Jesus was higher than the angels...

it says Jesus is the alpha and the omega...

it says salvation is through Jesus, no angel can save anyone...

God tells the angels to worship Jesus....

michael is clearly not Jesus...
Eagle2
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9/16/2016 12:17:47 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 11:33:33 PM, Artaxerxes wrote:
At 9/14/2016 8:21:17 PM, graceofgod wrote:

and is there an angel in the bible that can save you???
Yes. Specifically, Jesus.

how come michael dare not rebuke the devil yet Jesus did??/
Michael did rebuke the devil, as Michael is Jesus.

how come God the father is the alpha and the omega, a title also given to Jesus???
The title is never given to Jesus.

jn 1 vs3 how come Jesus says he created all things, in isa 44 vs 24 God said he created the heavens and the earth and asks who was with me when the heavens and the earth were made, how can this be as if Jesus was created by God he would have been with God when everything was created??
John 1:3 does not say Jesus made anything. It says that it was through Jesus that all things were created. Same message is given in Colossians 1. Jesus was with God when the heavens and earth were made. After all, all things were made through Jesus. Isaiah 44:24 does not pose the question that you are asking. Jesus was the first creation of God (Colossians 1:15).

Col 1:16, in talking about Jesus, says that "... All [other] things have been created through him and FOR HIM". If Jesus was Michael the Archangel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all things for himself? Isa 43:7 says God created "everyone ... for my OWN glory...".
Indeed, Michael the Archangel, or Jesus, was the first creation of God (which is stated in the very verse before you quoted). Why does the creation not glorify the Father if He used an instrument in creation?

Who's coming again, God or Jesus?

Revelation 1:8 (ESV Strong's) 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 22:12-13 (ESV Strong's) 12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."