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Jews were not 'Prophet Killers' .

Harikrish
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9/22/2016 10:09:19 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
Jews have been maligned as prophet killers by Christians. This OP calls on Christians to stop scapegoating Jews as 'Prophet Killers'

Jesus was lying when he accused Jews of killing the prophets sent to them.

Matthew 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

The Jews did not crucify those who broke the law, they stoned them to death.

Matthew 23:34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

That is a false charge made by Jesus. The Jews did not have the authority to put anyone to death under Roman Law. Besides, their method for putting law breakers and adulterers to death was by stoning. It was the Romans that crucified criminals. The Romans introduced crucifixion as a method of torturous punishment.

The Jewish people never killed their prophets. That is the biggest lie perpetrated by Christians. What prophets did the Jews kill? In fact, there isn"t a single prophet recorded in the Jewish Bible that was killed by the Jewish people.

But Wait! Jesus gives us an answer:
"And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.." (Matthew 23:35)

Jesus states that Zechariah ben Berekiah was murdered. This is the one and only example that we have of the Jews killing all the prophets. If this example were true then the statements made by Jesus and Paul that the Jews were killing all the prophets is a gross exaggeration but as we shall see this example as given by Jesus in the Book of Matthew is not accurate in the least.

Zechariah ben Berakiah (Zechariah 1:1) was a prophet in Israel. However, he was not murdered by anyone much less the Jewish people. The "only" Zechariah that was killed was another man named Zechariah son of Jehoiada who was executed by order of the King:

"And the spirit of God enveloped Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, and he stood above the people and said to them, "So said God: Why do you transgress the commandments of the Lord? You will not succeed because you have forsaken the Lord, and He has forsaken you." And they conspired against him and stoned him by the king's command, in the forecourt of the House of the Lord.." (2 Chronicles 24:20,21)
So what does this mean"

First, Jesus named the wrong Zechariah (there were 500 years between these two Zechariah"s), second the Zechariah who was killed was NOT a prophet but a priest, and third this Zechariah was not killed between the sanctuary and the altar as Jesus stated rather in the forecourt of the Temple. Jesus got the person, place and timing of this event completely WRONG.

It is also noteworthy that Jesus made another assertion in this false narrative- that the Jews were responsible "from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah" (Matthew 23:35). It is hard to imagine the Jews being responsible for the death of Abel who was the son of Adam and was murdered by his brother Cain. The Jews didn"t even exist then. Further, he implies that Jews are guilty for the whole history of bloodshed from the time of Abel to Zechariah and this is a statement that is unlikely to have been spoken by Jesus as a historical personality. Why would Jesus make statements that are classic anti-Semitic rants unless these statements of Jesus were later edited by Church authorities? Either Jesus was ignorant of the Scriptures and hated his own kindred or his statements have been edited by later anti-Semitic Church authorities. In either case the assertions of the Jews killing the prophets and the details of the explanation are completely wrong."

We know John was not killed by the Jews, he was killed by Herod over a personal matter. It was not an act that can be blamed on the Jewish people.

We also know it was the Romans who crucified Jesus. The Jews had no authority under Roman rule to take a life.

John 18:31 Then said Pilate to them, Take you him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said to him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death

It was the Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus.

John 19:23 When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining.

Here is an exchange between Harikrish and Airmax.

At 9/22/2016 4:13:25 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 10:12:48 PM, Harikrish wrote:

I don't mean to put you in a spot by calling on your religious scholarship. But it will be tremendously useful if you can correct me if I am wrong in my understanding that there isn"t a single prophet recorded in the Jewish Bible that was killed by the Jewish people, that such an act can be blamed directly on the Jewish people.

You are correct. This is a false assertion used to demonize Jews.

There are a few instances where an individual act by a king or jew might be misrepresented to place blame on the Jewish people. But that implies a collective guilt where none exist.

Correct.

For example PGA quoted : Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!


"Jesus and Paul assert that Jews apparently killed the prophets, but they never name the prophets the Jews killed. In fact, there isn"t a single prophet recorded in the Jewish Bible that was killed by the Jewish people.

We can stop this scapegoating of prophet killers on a separate thread.

I think you have accurately summarized things. It's an interesting topic to be sure, and I'd be more than happy to engage the topic at length. The short answer to all of this is that, no, Jews did not "kill prophets" and all of the assertions saying as much are misrepresentations, or just factually inaccurate for the sake of demonizing Jews and advancing some other agenda.

If you'd like me to go into specifics I'd be happy to when I have the time, but that's the short answer.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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9/22/2016 9:52:35 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 10:09:19 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Jews have been maligned as prophet killers by Christians. This OP calls on Christians to stop scapegoating Jews as 'Prophet Killers'...

Ok, I don"t say modern Jews are prophet killers. However, I don"t know how to prove is Jesus or you correct. That is why I think this whole topic is pointless, because it is really difficult to know who was killed over 2000 years ago.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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9/22/2016 10:02:49 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 10:09:19 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Jews have been maligned as prophet killers by Christians. This OP calls on Christians to stop scapegoating Jews as 'Prophet Killers'

Jesus was lying when he accused Jews of killing the prophets sent to them.

Matthew 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

The Jews did not crucify those who broke the law, they stoned them to death.

Matthew 23:34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

That is a false charge made by Jesus. The Jews did not have the authority to put anyone to death under Roman Law. Besides, their method for putting law breakers and adulterers to death was by stoning. It was the Romans that crucified criminals. The Romans introduced crucifixion as a method of torturous punishment.

The Jewish people never killed their prophets. That is the biggest lie perpetrated by Christians. What prophets did the Jews kill? In fact, there isn"t a single prophet recorded in the Jewish Bible that was killed by the Jewish people.

But Wait! Jesus gives us an answer:
"And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.." (Matthew 23:35)

Jesus states that Zechariah ben Berekiah was murdered. This is the one and only example that we have of the Jews killing all the prophets. If this example were true then the statements made by Jesus and Paul that the Jews were killing all the prophets is a gross exaggeration but as we shall see this example as given by Jesus in the Book of Matthew is not accurate in the least.

Zechariah ben Berakiah (Zechariah 1:1) was a prophet in Israel. However, he was not murdered by anyone much less the Jewish people. The "only" Zechariah that was killed was another man named Zechariah son of Jehoiada who was executed by order of the King:

"And the spirit of God enveloped Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, and he stood above the people and said to them, "So said God: Why do you transgress the commandments of the Lord? You will not succeed because you have forsaken the Lord, and He has forsaken you." And they conspired against him and stoned him by the king's command, in the forecourt of the House of the Lord.." (2 Chronicles 24:20,21)
So what does this mean"

First, Jesus named the wrong Zechariah (there were 500 years between these two Zechariah"s), second the Zechariah who was killed was NOT a prophet but a priest, and third this Zechariah was not killed between the sanctuary and the altar as Jesus stated rather in the forecourt of the Temple. Jesus got the person, place and timing of this event completely WRONG.

It is also noteworthy that Jesus made another assertion in this false narrative- that the Jews were responsible "from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah" (Matthew 23:35). It is hard to imagine the Jews being responsible for the death of Abel who was the son of Adam and was murdered by his brother Cain. The Jews didn"t even exist then. Further, he implies that Jews are guilty for the whole history of bloodshed from the time of Abel to Zechariah and this is a statement that is unlikely to have been spoken by Jesus as a historical personality. Why would Jesus make statements that are classic anti-Semitic rants unless these statements of Jesus were later edited by Church authorities? Either Jesus was ignorant of the Scriptures and hated his own kindred or his statements have been edited by later anti-Semitic Church authorities. In either case the assertions of the Jews killing the prophets and the details of the explanation are completely wrong."

We know John was not killed by the Jews, he was killed by Herod over a personal matter. It was not an act that can be blamed on the Jewish people.

We also know it was the Romans who crucified Jesus. The Jews had no authority under Roman rule to take a life.

John 18:31 Then said Pilate to them, Take you him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said to him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death

It was the Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus.

John 19:23 When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining.

Here is an exchange between Harikrish and Airmax.

At 9/22/2016 4:13:25 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 10:12:48 PM, Harikrish wrote:

I don't mean to put you in a spot by calling on your religious scholarship. But it will be tremendously useful if you can correct me if I am wrong in my understanding that there isn"t a single prophet recorded in the Jewish Bible that was killed by the Jewish people, that such an act can be blamed directly on the Jewish people.

You are correct. This is a false assertion used to demonize Jews.

There are a few instances where an individual act by a king or jew might be misrepresented to place blame on the Jewish people. But that implies a collective guilt where none exist.

Correct.

For example PGA quoted : Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!


"Jesus and Paul assert that Jews apparently killed the prophets, but they never name the prophets the Jews killed. In fact, there isn"t a single prophet recorded in the Jewish Bible that was killed by the Jewish people.

We can stop this scapegoating of prophet killers on a separate thread.

I think you have accurately summarized things. It's an interesting topic to be sure, and I'd be more than happy to engage the topic at length. The short answer to all of this is that, no, Jews did not "kill prophets" and all of the assertions saying as much are misrepresentations, or just factually inaccurate for the sake of demonizing Jews and advancing some other agenda.

If you'd like me to go into specifics I'd be happy to when I have the time, but that's the short answer.

Jews were not "prophet killers" for the reasons you outlined but, according to them and the Christians, they are God's favorite people. Everyone else is red-headed step children.
keithprosser
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9/23/2016 12:44:10 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
There is no tradition of the Jews routinely killing their prophets, but according to the gospel accounts the Romans acted only as a 'hangman'- it was Jewish religious establishment that wanted Jesus dead, not the Romans.
I think it quite likely that is historically accurate, and is indicative of a radical change in Christianity from a Jewish cult to a gentile one. Inside Palestine Christianity lost steam and outside Palestine it took on a distinctly anti-jewish slant, especially in relation to the death of Jesus as can be readily seen in the gospels, acts and the writings of Paul.
That has undoubtedly contributed to anti-Semitic sentiment through the ages, yet another excuse to persecute a people who have been a ready made identifiable minority to be scapegoated for two millennia.
Harikrish
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9/23/2016 3:37:43 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 9:52:35 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 10:09:19 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Jews have been maligned as prophet killers by Christians. This OP calls on Christians to stop scapegoating Jews as 'Prophet Killers'...

Ok, I don"t say modern Jews are prophet killers. However, I don"t know how to prove is Jesus or you correct. That is why I think this whole topic is pointless, because it is really difficult to know who was killed over 2000 years ago.

You will find useful information on Jesus from my other thread.
Was Jesus a liar and a lunatic?
http://www.debate.org...

The Jewish scriptures details the lives of their prophets and how they died. These records were preserved for posterity and go back over 3000 years.
I have posted my exchange with Airmax a Jew, DDO moderator and a religious scholar and a gentleman to correct my understanding of Jewish history and their scapegoating as prophet killers. So far he agrees with my position. You have to have better credentials than Airmax to justify your rejection of my research. Ignorance might be your only justification which I will accept to save you any further embarrassment.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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9/23/2016 5:07:14 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:44:10 PM, keithprosser wrote:
There is no tradition of the Jews routinely killing their prophets, but according to the gospel accounts the Romans acted only as a 'hangman'- it was Jewish religious establishment that wanted Jesus dead, not the Romans.
I think it quite likely that is historically accurate, and is indicative of a radical change in Christianity from a Jewish cult to a gentile one. Inside Palestine Christianity lost steam and outside Palestine it took on a distinctly anti-jewish slant, especially in relation to the death of Jesus as can be readily seen in the gospels, acts and the writings of Paul.
That has undoubtedly contributed to anti-Semitic sentiment through the ages, yet another excuse to persecute a people who have been a ready made identifiable minority to be scapegoated for two millennia.
Thank you for your input.

There is plenty of evidence in the scriptures that point to Jesus staging his own death. Now why would someone stage his own death? Jesus only began to believe he was the anointed one towards tbe end of his short ministry. His family did not see any messianic traits in Jesus.
Jesus even asked his disciples not to tell anyone he was tbe Christ/Messiah after Peter said Jesus was the Christ. That was odd, considering he was sent as a messiah to save the Jews.

Matthew 16:20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

John the Baptist too started having doubts Jesus was the promised one.
Matthew 11:3 to ask him, "Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?"

But towards the end of his ministry he managed to delude himself and began to believe he was indeed the messiah.
He gathered his disciples at the last supper and told them how the events of his death would unfold.

Matthew 16:21 to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

He told them one would lie three times (Peter) and the other would betray him (Judas). All this had to happen so he could fulfill the prophesies. The disciples too wanted to see the prophesies fulfilled. They took his cue, Peter lied 3 times and Judas betrayed Jesus to the authorities.

Jesus even went one step further to fulfill the prophecy of Zechariah.

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Matthew 21:2 saying to them, "Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me.

Jesus ride into Jerusalem on a donkey. The people worshipped him and saw it as the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. Zechariah 9:9.

All this proves is Jesus was well versed in the prophesies and staged his exit according to the prophesies right down to riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. He was aware he was going to be put to death according to the prophesies and even prayed that would not happen.

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

He was well aware that his claims to being God, Messiah, Christ were all blasphemous and on two occasions he was even threatened with stoning. Now making those blasphemous claims before the high priest and Pilate without demonstrating his powers would mean certain death. Yet at his trial he offered little resistance, he tried to be evasive and said his kingdom was it was of this world therefore not a threat to tbe Romans or Ceasar.

John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Why would God, Messiah,Christ be so subdued before a human court is unimaginable. But Jesus was tried, convicted and crucified for his blasphemous lies. No one was really responsible for his death. The Romans did it out of political expedience. They had a lunatic on their hand who had many followers. The high priest had a blasphemous deluded liar they would have like to stone but were not permitted to do under Roman law. If it wasn't for Jesus forcing the issue upon them by staging his own death, none of this would have happened.

What crossed Jesus's mind on the cross when he snapped out of his delusional state of mind?

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

But if there was a prophet who deserved to die it would have been Jesus. And it would have been the feeble minded Christians who would have insisted he be put to death for making hollow promises of forgiveness and eternal life resulting in their sins piling up and now they are struggling with their conscience to make it through each day.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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9/23/2016 7:17:39 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 3:37:43 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/22/2016 9:52:35 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 10:09:19 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Jews have been maligned as prophet killers by Christians. This OP calls on Christians to stop scapegoating Jews as 'Prophet Killers'...

Ok, I don"t say modern Jews are prophet killers. However, I don"t know how to prove is Jesus or you correct. That is why I think this whole topic is pointless, because it is really difficult to know who was killed over 2000 years ago.

You will find useful information on Jesus from my other thread.
Was Jesus a liar and a lunatic?
http://www.debate.org...

The Jewish scriptures details the lives of their prophets and how they died. These records were preserved for posterity and go back over 3000 years.
...

I am not claiming that someone is murderer, but don"t you think it is obvious that person who is accused of murder, denies it? It would be surprising, if Jews would admit, if they have murdered. Usually murderers try to destroy all evidence that could prove them guilty, do you think Jews would not be biased in this case?
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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9/23/2016 9:39:46 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 7:17:39 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 3:37:43 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/22/2016 9:52:35 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 10:09:19 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Jews have been maligned as prophet killers by Christians. This OP calls on Christians to stop scapegoating Jews as 'Prophet Killers'...

Ok, I don"t say modern Jews are prophet killers. However, I don"t know how to prove is Jesus or you correct. That is why I think this whole topic is pointless, because it is really difficult to know who was killed over 2000 years ago.

You will find useful information on Jesus from my other thread.
Was Jesus a liar and a lunatic?
http://www.debate.org...

The Jewish scriptures details the lives of their prophets and how they died. These records were preserved for posterity and go back over 3000 years.
...

I am not claiming that someone is murderer, but don"t you think it is obvious that person who is accused of murder, denies it? It would be surprising, if Jews would admit, if they have murdered. Usually murderers try to destroy all evidence that could prove them guilty, do you think Jews would not be biased in this case?

Jews are strange that way. Their prophets may lie but the average Jews is a God fearing person. Example: Moses led the Jews for 40 years wandering around in the desert when Canaan was only a months journey from Egypt. Yet the Jews did not take it out on Moses. He died of old age.
The Jews threatened to stone Jesus on several occasions for his blasphemous claims, but they let him get away hoping he would stop.
The Jews maintained their scriptures with the highest integrity. If anyone lied it was the Christians who were the first to spread anti-Semitism.
12_13
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9/26/2016 9:59:05 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 9:39:46 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The Jews threatened to stone Jesus on several occasions for his blasphemous claims, but they let him get away hoping he would stop.

Or because they didn"t have the right to kill him as this scripture tells:

Pilate therefore said to them, "Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law." Therefore the Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,"
John 18:31
graceofgod
Posts: 5,052
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9/27/2016 10:28:55 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 10:09:19 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Jews have been maligned as prophet killers by Christians. This OP calls on Christians to stop scapegoating Jews as 'Prophet Killers'

Jesus was lying when he accused Jews of killing the prophets sent to them.

Matthew 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

The Jews did not crucify those who broke the law, they stoned them to death.

Matthew 23:34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

That is a false charge made by Jesus. The Jews did not have the authority to put anyone to death under Roman Law. Besides, their method for putting law breakers and adulterers to death was by stoning. It was the Romans that crucified criminals. The Romans introduced crucifixion as a method of torturous punishment.

The Jewish people never killed their prophets. That is the biggest lie perpetrated by Christians. What prophets did the Jews kill? In fact, there isn"t a single prophet recorded in the Jewish Bible that was killed by the Jewish people.

But Wait! Jesus gives us an answer:
"And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.." (Matthew 23:35)

Jesus states that Zechariah ben Berekiah was murdered. This is the one and only example that we have of the Jews killing all the prophets. If this example were true then the statements made by Jesus and Paul that the Jews were killing all the prophets is a gross exaggeration but as we shall see this example as given by Jesus in the Book of Matthew is not accurate in the least.

Zechariah ben Berakiah (Zechariah 1:1) was a prophet in Israel. However, he was not murdered by anyone much less the Jewish people. The "only" Zechariah that was killed was another man named Zechariah son of Jehoiada who was executed by order of the King:

"And the spirit of God enveloped Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, and he stood above the people and said to them, "So said God: Why do you transgress the commandments of the Lord? You will not succeed because you have forsaken the Lord, and He has forsaken you." And they conspired against him and stoned him by the king's command, in the forecourt of the House of the Lord.." (2 Chronicles 24:20,21)
So what does this mean"

First, Jesus named the wrong Zechariah (there were 500 years between these two Zechariah"s), second the Zechariah who was killed was NOT a prophet but a priest, and third this Zechariah was not killed between the sanctuary and the altar as Jesus stated rather in the forecourt of the Temple. Jesus got the person, place and timing of this event completely WRONG.

It is also noteworthy that Jesus made another assertion in this false narrative- that the Jews were responsible "from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah" (Matthew 23:35). It is hard to imagine the Jews being responsible for the death of Abel who was the son of Adam and was murdered by his brother Cain. The Jews didn"t even exist then. Further, he implies that Jews are guilty for the whole history of bloodshed from the time of Abel to Zechariah and this is a statement that is unlikely to have been spoken by Jesus as a historical personality. Why would Jesus make statements that are classic anti-Semitic rants unless these statements of Jesus were later edited by Church authorities? Either Jesus was ignorant of the Scriptures and hated his own kindred or his statements have been edited by later anti-Semitic Church authorities. In either case the assertions of the Jews killing the prophets and the details of the explanation are completely wrong."

We know John was not killed by the Jews, he was killed by Herod over a personal matter. It was not an act that can be blamed on the Jewish people.

We also know it was the Romans who crucified Jesus. The Jews had no authority under Roman rule to take a life.

John 18:31 Then said Pilate to them, Take you him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said to him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death

It was the Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus.

John 19:23 When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining.

Here is an exchange between Harikrish and Airmax.

At 9/22/2016 4:13:25 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 10:12:48 PM, Harikrish wrote:

I don't mean to put you in a spot by calling on your religious scholarship. But it will be tremendously useful if you can correct me if I am wrong in my understanding that there isn"t a single prophet recorded in the Jewish Bible that was killed by the Jewish people, that such an act can be blamed directly on the Jewish people.

You are correct. This is a false assertion used to demonize Jews.

There are a few instances where an individual act by a king or jew might be misrepresented to place blame on the Jewish people. But that implies a collective guilt where none exist.

Correct.

For example PGA quoted : Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!


"Jesus and Paul assert that Jews apparently killed the prophets, but they never name the prophets the Jews killed. In fact, there isn"t a single prophet recorded in the Jewish Bible that was killed by the Jewish people.

We can stop this scapegoating of prophet killers on a separate thread.

I think you have accurately summarized things. It's an interesting topic to be sure, and I'd be more than happy to engage the topic at length. The short answer to all of this is that, no, Jews did not "kill prophets" and all of the assertions saying as much are misrepresentations, or just factually inaccurate for the sake of demonizing Jews and advancing some other agenda.

If you'd like me to go into specifics I'd be happy to when I have the time, but that's the short answer.

your usual rubbish...

the jews set Jesus up to be crucified....
pilate said he found no fault with Jesus, yet the Jews said he makes himself to be king and we only have one king and that is ceasar...

all that apart it had to happen to fulfill prophecy ...
Harikrish
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9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 9:59:05 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 9:39:46 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The Jews threatened to stone Jesus on several occasions for his blasphemous claims, but they let him get away hoping he would stop.

Or because they didn"t have the right to kill him as this scripture tells:

Pilate therefore said to them, "Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law." Therefore the Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,"
John 18:31

So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.
Harikrish
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9/28/2016 3:07:08 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/27/2016 10:28:55 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/22/2016 10:09:19 AM, Harikrish wrote:
Jews have been maligned as prophet killers by Christians. This OP calls on Christians to stop scapegoating Jews as 'Prophet Killers'

Jesus was lying when he accused Jews of killing the prophets sent to them.

Matthew 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

The Jews did not crucify those who broke the law, they stoned them to death.

Matthew 23:34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

That is a false charge made by Jesus. The Jews did not have the authority to put anyone to death under Roman Law. Besides, their method for putting law breakers and adulterers to death was by stoning. It was the Romans that crucified criminals. The Romans introduced crucifixion as a method of torturous punishment.

The Jewish people never killed their prophets. That is the biggest lie perpetrated by Christians. What prophets did the Jews kill? In fact, there isn"t a single prophet recorded in the Jewish Bible that was killed by the Jewish people.

But Wait! Jesus gives us an answer:
"And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.." (Matthew 23:35)

Jesus states that Zechariah ben Berekiah was murdered. This is the one and only example that we have of the Jews killing all the prophets. If this example were true then the statements made by Jesus and Paul that the Jews were killing all the prophets is a gross exaggeration but as we shall see this example as given by Jesus in the Book of Matthew is not accurate in the least.

Zechariah ben Berakiah (Zechariah 1:1) was a prophet in Israel. However, he was not murdered by anyone much less the Jewish people. The "only" Zechariah that was killed was another man named Zechariah son of Jehoiada who was executed by order of the King:

"And the spirit of God enveloped Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, and he stood above the people and said to them, "So said God: Why do you transgress the commandments of the Lord? You will not succeed because you have forsaken the Lord, and He has forsaken you." And they conspired against him and stoned him by the king's command, in the forecourt of the House of the Lord.." (2 Chronicles 24:20,21)
So what does this mean"

First, Jesus named the wrong Zechariah (there were 500 years between these two Zechariah"s), second the Zechariah who was killed was NOT a prophet but a priest, and third this Zechariah was not killed between the sanctuary and the altar as Jesus stated rather in the forecourt of the Temple. Jesus got the person, place and timing of this event completely WRONG.

It is also noteworthy that Jesus made another assertion in this false narrative- that the Jews were responsible "from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah" (Matthew 23:35). It is hard to imagine the Jews being responsible for the death of Abel who was the son of Adam and was murdered by his brother Cain. The Jews didn"t even exist then. Further, he implies that Jews are guilty for the whole history of bloodshed from the time of Abel to Zechariah and this is a statement that is unlikely to have been spoken by Jesus as a historical personality. Why would Jesus make statements that are classic anti-Semitic rants unless these statements of Jesus were later edited by Church authorities? Either Jesus was ignorant of the Scriptures and hated his own kindred or his statements have been edited by later anti-Semitic Church authorities. In either case the assertions of the Jews killing the prophets and the details of the explanation are completely wrong."

We know John was not killed by the Jews, he was killed by Herod over a personal matter. It was not an act that can be blamed on the Jewish people.

We also know it was the Romans who crucified Jesus. The Jews had no authority under Roman rule to take a life.

John 18:31 Then said Pilate to them, Take you him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said to him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death

It was the Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus.

John 19:23 When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining.

Here is an exchange between Harikrish and Airmax.

At 9/22/2016 4:13:25 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 10:12:48 PM, Harikrish wrote:

I don't mean to put you in a spot by calling on your religious scholarship. But it will be tremendously useful if you can correct me if I am wrong in my understanding that there isn"t a single prophet recorded in the Jewish Bible that was killed by the Jewish people, that such an act can be blamed directly on the Jewish people.

You are correct. This is a false assertion used to demonize Jews.

There are a few instances where an individual act by a king or jew might be misrepresented to place blame on the Jewish people. But that implies a collective guilt where none exist.

Correct.

For example PGA quoted : Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!


"Jesus and Paul assert that Jews apparently killed the prophets, but they never name the prophets the Jews killed. In fact, there isn"t a single prophet recorded in the Jewish Bible that was killed by the Jewish people.

We can stop this scapegoating of prophet killers on a separate thread.

I think you have accurately summarized things. It's an interesting topic to be sure, and I'd be more than happy to engage the topic at length. The short answer to all of this is that, no, Jews did not "kill prophets" and all of the assertions saying as much are misrepresentations, or just factually inaccurate for the sake of demonizing Jews and advancing some other agenda.

If you'd like me to go into specifics I'd be happy to when I have the time, but that's the short answer.

your usual rubbish...

the jews set Jesus up to be crucified....
pilate said he found no fault with Jesus, yet the Jews said he makes himself to be king and we only have one king and that is ceasar...

all that apart it had to happen to fulfill prophecy ...

So God set up Jesus to die. That was the condition under which Jesus was sent. jesus was to be rejected, mocked, despised and fail and finally be crucified by the Romans who would go on to destroy the temple and slaughter the Jews. Paradoxically, Jesus was also sent to save tbe Jews.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

The success or failure of Jesus in both of God's plans was left to tbe Romans to decide. The Romans decided to crucify Jesus, the Romans decided to destroy the temple and slaughter the Jews.
Jesus could not save the Jews or the temple or even himself. That is what divine incompetence looks like.
graceofgod
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9/28/2016 3:59:25 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/26/2016 9:59:05 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 9:39:46 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The Jews threatened to stone Jesus on several occasions for his blasphemous claims, but they let him get away hoping he would stop.

Or because they didn"t have the right to kill him as this scripture tells:

Pilate therefore said to them, "Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law." Therefore the Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,"
John 18:31

So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

no the jews manipulated pilate to get Jesus crucified...
graceofgod
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9/28/2016 4:03:34 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
hakrud said
The success or failure of Jesus in both of God's plans was left to tbe Romans to decide. The Romans decided to crucify Jesus, the Romans decided to destroy the temple and slaughter the Jews.
Jesus could not save the Jews or the temple or even himself. That is what divine incompetence looks like.

he did save the Jews he made a way for them and ultimately the gentiles to be saved, without him coming, dying and being raised back to life there would be no salvation plan other than to keep the law perfectly and no one could do that..

you really don't understand the bible do you, i would stick to the koran if I were you, it's a lot easier, just kill infidels and gays and rape women and children...
Harikrish
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9/28/2016 4:14:42 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 3:59:25 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/26/2016 9:59:05 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 9:39:46 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The Jews threatened to stone Jesus on several occasions for his blasphemous claims, but they let him get away hoping he would stop.

Or because they didn"t have the right to kill him as this scripture tells:

Pilate therefore said to them, "Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law." Therefore the Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,"
John 18:31

So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

no the jews manipulated pilate to get Jesus crucified...

If tbe Jews has so much influence of Pilate,they could have gotten him to leave their country. Instead they were under Roman rule and manipulated by the Romans.
graceofgod
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9/28/2016 5:32:04 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 4:14:42 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:59:25 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/26/2016 9:59:05 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 9:39:46 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The Jews threatened to stone Jesus on several occasions for his blasphemous claims, but they let him get away hoping he would stop.

Or because they didn"t have the right to kill him as this scripture tells:

Pilate therefore said to them, "Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law." Therefore the Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,"
John 18:31

So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

no the jews manipulated pilate to get Jesus crucified...

If tbe Jews has so much influence of Pilate,they could have gotten him to leave their country. Instead they were under Roman rule and manipulated by the Romans.

lol, they did not have that much influence on the Romans but as a crowd shouting at pilate they were able to manipulate him in to crucifying Jesus, despite him wanting to wash his hands of the whole thing, if you look in to the history of the whole thing, pilate was normally very brutal with the Jews but because of a change in ceasars, he was under pressure to stay more careful with the jews but the reason of him calling himself king of the Jews was all the excuse pilate needed to continue being brutal and have no blame...
desmac
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9/28/2016 6:12:00 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 5:32:04 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 4:14:42 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:59:25 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/26/2016 9:59:05 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 9:39:46 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The Jews threatened to stone Jesus on several occasions for his blasphemous claims, but they let him get away hoping he would stop.

Or because they didn"t have the right to kill him as this scripture tells:

Pilate therefore said to them, "Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law." Therefore the Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,"
John 18:31

So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

no the jews manipulated pilate to get Jesus crucified...

If tbe Jews has so much influence of Pilate,they could have gotten him to leave their country. Instead they were under Roman rule and manipulated by the Romans.

lol, they did not have that much influence on the Romans but as a crowd shouting at pilate they were able to manipulate him in to crucifying Jesus, despite him wanting to wash his hands of the whole thing, if you look in to the history of the whole thing, pilate was normally very brutal with the Jews but because of a change in ceasars, he was under pressure to stay more careful with the jews but the reason of him calling himself king of the Jews was all the excuse pilate needed to continue being brutal and have no blame...

Which history books detail that load of bullsh!t?
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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9/28/2016 6:38:43 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 5:32:04 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 4:14:42 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:59:25 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/26/2016 9:59:05 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 9:39:46 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The Jews threatened to stone Jesus on several occasions for his blasphemous claims, but they let him get away hoping he would stop.

Or because they didn"t have the right to kill him as this scripture tells:

Pilate therefore said to them, "Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law." Therefore the Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,"
John 18:31

So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

no the jews manipulated pilate to get Jesus crucified...

If tbe Jews has so much influence of Pilate,they could have gotten him to leave their country. Instead they were under Roman rule and manipulated by the Romans.

lol, they did not have that much influence on the Romans but as a crowd shouting at pilate they were able to manipulate him in to crucifying Jesus, despite him wanting to wash his hands of the whole thing, if you look in to the history of the whole thing, pilate was normally very brutal with the Jews but because of a change in ceasars, he was under pressure to stay more careful with the jews but the reason of him calling himself king of the Jews was all the excuse pilate needed to continue being brutal and have no blame...

Jesus was arrested and brought to the Roman authorities because he was betrayed by Judas. What was the betrayal? The authorities were already looking for Jesus. Reports of his activities and complaints of his blasphemous claims had reached the authorities. But it was going to be impossible to find Jesus among the thousands gathered to celebrate the festival of the Passover and how was it going to be possible to arrest Jesus who had thousands of followers. It had to be done secretly. Judas made that possible by identifying Jesus with a kiss. So Jesus was already a wanted man for questioning. He was claiming to be the Jewish messiah or king of the Jews. That was offensive to the Jewish priests and a concern to the Roman authorities , they feared a confrontation and sedition.
Once arrested Jesus was given a trial. He was asked if he was tbe messiah as it was reported. Jesus denied he was by being evasive and saying his kingdom was not immediately of this world. But the evidence against Jesus was overwhelming and the high priest intervened and charged him with blasphemy. But blasphemy was not punishable under Roman law and only threats to Caesar were. To avoid a confrontation the Romans took it upon themselves to crucify Jesus. They could have handed Jesus over to,tbe Jews to be stoned to death. But instead chose to crucify Jesus themselves to an end to the religious divide. . Jesus was crucified by the Roman soldiers who then divided his clothes among themselves.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,052
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9/28/2016 7:57:22 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 6:38:43 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 5:32:04 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 4:14:42 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:59:25 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/26/2016 9:59:05 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 9:39:46 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The Jews threatened to stone Jesus on several occasions for his blasphemous claims, but they let him get away hoping he would stop.

Or because they didn"t have the right to kill him as this scripture tells:

Pilate therefore said to them, "Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law." Therefore the Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,"
John 18:31

So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

no the jews manipulated pilate to get Jesus crucified...

If tbe Jews has so much influence of Pilate,they could have gotten him to leave their country. Instead they were under Roman rule and manipulated by the Romans.

lol, they did not have that much influence on the Romans but as a crowd shouting at pilate they were able to manipulate him in to crucifying Jesus, despite him wanting to wash his hands of the whole thing, if you look in to the history of the whole thing, pilate was normally very brutal with the Jews but because of a change in ceasars, he was under pressure to stay more careful with the jews but the reason of him calling himself king of the Jews was all the excuse pilate needed to continue being brutal and have no blame...

Jesus was arrested and brought to the Roman authorities because he was betrayed by Judas. What was the betrayal? The authorities were already looking for Jesus. Reports of his activities and complaints of his blasphemous claims had reached the authorities. But it was going to be impossible to find Jesus among the thousands gathered to celebrate the festival of the Passover and how was it going to be possible to arrest Jesus who had thousands of followers. It had to be done secretly. Judas made that possible by identifying Jesus with a kiss. So Jesus was already a wanted man for questioning. He was claiming to be the Jewish messiah or king of the Jews. That was offensive to the Jewish priests and a concern to the Roman authorities , they feared a confrontation and sedition.
Once arrested Jesus was given a trial. He was asked if he was tbe messiah as it was reported. Jesus denied he was by being evasive and saying his kingdom was not immediately of this world. But the evidence against Jesus was overwhelming and the high priest intervened and charged him with blasphemy. But blasphemy was not punishable under Roman law and only threats to Caesar were. To avoid a confrontation the Romans took it upon themselves to crucify Jesus. They could have handed Jesus over to,tbe Jews to be stoned to death. But instead chose to crucify Jesus themselves to an end to the religious divide. . Jesus was crucified by the Roman soldiers who then divided his clothes among themselves.

no Jesus was betrayed and brought to the Jewish leaders and at night, which was actually against the jewish laws....

he was questioned by Caiaphas, who broke the laws again by ripping his priestly garment when questioning Jesus...

they took Jesus to the Romans they instigated the crucifixion by forcing pilates hand and giving him a way to order the crucifixion without taking the blame, remember he washed his hands of the whole thing, that is not just figuratively speaking...
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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9/28/2016 8:36:52 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

They are not guilty for doing the crucifixion. But by what the Bible tells, they are guilty for false witness.
Harikrish
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9/28/2016 8:59:51 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 7:57:22 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 6:38:43 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 5:32:04 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 4:14:42 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:59:25 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/26/2016 9:59:05 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 9:39:46 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The Jews threatened to stone Jesus on several occasions for his blasphemous claims, but they let him get away hoping he would stop.

Or because they didn"t have the right to kill him as this scripture tells:

Pilate therefore said to them, "Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law." Therefore the Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,"
John 18:31

So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

no the jews manipulated pilate to get Jesus crucified...

If tbe Jews has so much influence of Pilate,they could have gotten him to leave their country. Instead they were under Roman rule and manipulated by the Romans.

lol, they did not have that much influence on the Romans but as a crowd shouting at pilate they were able to manipulate him in to crucifying Jesus, despite him wanting to wash his hands of the whole thing, if you look in to the history of the whole thing, pilate was normally very brutal with the Jews but because of a change in ceasars, he was under pressure to stay more careful with the jews but the reason of him calling himself king of the Jews was all the excuse pilate needed to continue being brutal and have no blame...

Jesus was arrested and brought to the Roman authorities because he was betrayed by Judas. What was the betrayal? The authorities were already looking for Jesus. Reports of his activities and complaints of his blasphemous claims had reached the authorities. But it was going to be impossible to find Jesus among the thousands gathered to celebrate the festival of the Passover and how was it going to be possible to arrest Jesus who had thousands of followers. It had to be done secretly. Judas made that possible by identifying Jesus with a kiss. So Jesus was already a wanted man for questioning. He was claiming to be the Jewish messiah or king of the Jews. That was offensive to the Jewish priests and a concern to the Roman authorities , they feared a confrontation and sedition.
Once arrested Jesus was given a trial. He was asked if he was tbe messiah as it was reported. Jesus denied he was by being evasive and saying his kingdom was not immediately of this world. But the evidence against Jesus was overwhelming and the high priest intervened and charged him with blasphemy. But blasphemy was not punishable under Roman law and only threats to Caesar were. To avoid a confrontation the Romans took it upon themselves to crucify Jesus. They could have handed Jesus over to,tbe Jews to be stoned to death. But instead chose to crucify Jesus themselves to an end to the religious divide. . Jesus was crucified by the Roman soldiers who then divided his clothes among themselves.

no Jesus was betrayed and brought to the Jewish leaders and at night, which was actually against the jewish laws....

he was questioned by Caiaphas, who broke the laws again by ripping his priestly garment when questioning Jesus...

they took Jesus to the Romans they instigated the crucifixion by forcing pilates hand and giving him a way to order the crucifixion without taking the blame, remember he washed his hands of the whole thing, that is not just figuratively speaking...

Washing his hands was a symbolic gesture. He did not hand Jesus to the Jews so they could stone him according to their religious practices. Instead he had Roman soldiers crucify Jesus and denied Jews that satisfaction.
graceofgod
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9/28/2016 9:02:54 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 8:59:51 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 7:57:22 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 6:38:43 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 5:32:04 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 4:14:42 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:59:25 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/26/2016 9:59:05 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 9:39:46 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The Jews threatened to stone Jesus on several occasions for his blasphemous claims, but they let him get away hoping he would stop.

Or because they didn"t have the right to kill him as this scripture tells:

Pilate therefore said to them, "Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law." Therefore the Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,"
John 18:31

So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

no the jews manipulated pilate to get Jesus crucified...

If tbe Jews has so much influence of Pilate,they could have gotten him to leave their country. Instead they were under Roman rule and manipulated by the Romans.

lol, they did not have that much influence on the Romans but as a crowd shouting at pilate they were able to manipulate him in to crucifying Jesus, despite him wanting to wash his hands of the whole thing, if you look in to the history of the whole thing, pilate was normally very brutal with the Jews but because of a change in ceasars, he was under pressure to stay more careful with the jews but the reason of him calling himself king of the Jews was all the excuse pilate needed to continue being brutal and have no blame...

Jesus was arrested and brought to the Roman authorities because he was betrayed by Judas. What was the betrayal? The authorities were already looking for Jesus. Reports of his activities and complaints of his blasphemous claims had reached the authorities. But it was going to be impossible to find Jesus among the thousands gathered to celebrate the festival of the Passover and how was it going to be possible to arrest Jesus who had thousands of followers. It had to be done secretly. Judas made that possible by identifying Jesus with a kiss. So Jesus was already a wanted man for questioning. He was claiming to be the Jewish messiah or king of the Jews. That was offensive to the Jewish priests and a concern to the Roman authorities , they feared a confrontation and sedition.
Once arrested Jesus was given a trial. He was asked if he was tbe messiah as it was reported. Jesus denied he was by being evasive and saying his kingdom was not immediately of this world. But the evidence against Jesus was overwhelming and the high priest intervened and charged him with blasphemy. But blasphemy was not punishable under Roman law and only threats to Caesar were. To avoid a confrontation the Romans took it upon themselves to crucify Jesus. They could have handed Jesus over to,tbe Jews to be stoned to death. But instead chose to crucify Jesus themselves to an end to the religious divide. . Jesus was crucified by the Roman soldiers who then divided his clothes among themselves.

no Jesus was betrayed and brought to the Jewish leaders and at night, which was actually against the jewish laws....

he was questioned by Caiaphas, who broke the laws again by ripping his priestly garment when questioning Jesus...

they took Jesus to the Romans they instigated the crucifixion by forcing pilates hand and giving him a way to order the crucifixion without taking the blame, remember he washed his hands of the whole thing, that is not just figuratively speaking...

Washing his hands was a symbolic gesture. He did not hand Jesus to the Jews so they could stone him according to their religious practices. Instead he had Roman soldiers crucify Jesus and denied Jews that satisfaction.

he had to be crucified it was prophecy..

the jews demanded he was crucified...
Harikrish
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9/28/2016 9:08:15 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 8:36:52 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

They are not guilty for doing the crucifixion. But by what the Bible tells, they are guilty for false witness.
Pilate said he did not find Jesus guilty of breaking any Roman law, yet he ordered his soldiers to crucify Jesus.
It didn't matter what the Jews thought. Roman authority was final even when they were crucifying the only begotten son of God or the anointed messiah of the Jewish people.
graceofgod
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9/28/2016 9:17:10 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 9:08:15 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 8:36:52 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

They are not guilty for doing the crucifixion. But by what the Bible tells, they are guilty for false witness.
Pilate said he did not find Jesus guilty of breaking any Roman law, yet he ordered his soldiers to crucify Jesus.
It didn't matter what the Jews thought. Roman authority was final even when they were crucifying the only begotten son of God or the anointed messiah of the Jewish people.

the Jews told pilate Jesus claimed to be their king and the only king they have is Caesar.. that is what set pilate to crucify Jesus..
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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9/28/2016 9:18:37 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 9:17:10 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:08:15 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 8:36:52 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

They are not guilty for doing the crucifixion. But by what the Bible tells, they are guilty for false witness.
Pilate said he did not find Jesus guilty of breaking any Roman law, yet he ordered his soldiers to crucify Jesus.
It didn't matter what the Jews thought. Roman authority was final even when they were crucifying the only begotten son of God or the anointed messiah of the Jewish people.

the Jews told pilate Jesus claimed to be their king and the only king they have is Caesar.. that is what set pilate to crucify Jesus..

No, it was Jesus crimes against the Roman state.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
graceofgod
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9/28/2016 9:20:07 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 9:18:37 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:17:10 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:08:15 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 8:36:52 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

They are not guilty for doing the crucifixion. But by what the Bible tells, they are guilty for false witness.
Pilate said he did not find Jesus guilty of breaking any Roman law, yet he ordered his soldiers to crucify Jesus.
It didn't matter what the Jews thought. Roman authority was final even when they were crucifying the only begotten son of God or the anointed messiah of the Jewish people.

the Jews told pilate Jesus claimed to be their king and the only king they have is Caesar.. that is what set pilate to crucify Jesus..

No, it was Jesus crimes against the Roman state.

no it wasn't...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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9/28/2016 9:21:35 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 9:20:07 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:18:37 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:17:10 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:08:15 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 8:36:52 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

They are not guilty for doing the crucifixion. But by what the Bible tells, they are guilty for false witness.
Pilate said he did not find Jesus guilty of breaking any Roman law, yet he ordered his soldiers to crucify Jesus.
It didn't matter what the Jews thought. Roman authority was final even when they were crucifying the only begotten son of God or the anointed messiah of the Jewish people.

the Jews told pilate Jesus claimed to be their king and the only king they have is Caesar.. that is what set pilate to crucify Jesus..

No, it was Jesus crimes against the Roman state.

no it wasn't...

Yes, it was, that's why he was arrested. Don't you know anything about your religion?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
graceofgod
Posts: 5,052
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9/28/2016 9:23:38 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 9:21:35 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:20:07 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:18:37 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:17:10 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:08:15 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 8:36:52 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

They are not guilty for doing the crucifixion. But by what the Bible tells, they are guilty for false witness.
Pilate said he did not find Jesus guilty of breaking any Roman law, yet he ordered his soldiers to crucify Jesus.
It didn't matter what the Jews thought. Roman authority was final even when they were crucifying the only begotten son of God or the anointed messiah of the Jewish people.

the Jews told pilate Jesus claimed to be their king and the only king they have is Caesar.. that is what set pilate to crucify Jesus..

No, it was Jesus crimes against the Roman state.

no it wasn't...

Yes, it was, that's why he was arrested. Don't you know anything about your religion?

he was arrested by the Jews and taken to the Romans....

pilate says he finds no fault, he had broken no Roman laws...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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9/28/2016 9:30:32 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 9:23:38 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:21:35 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:20:07 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:18:37 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:17:10 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:08:15 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 8:36:52 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

They are not guilty for doing the crucifixion. But by what the Bible tells, they are guilty for false witness.
Pilate said he did not find Jesus guilty of breaking any Roman law, yet he ordered his soldiers to crucify Jesus.
It didn't matter what the Jews thought. Roman authority was final even when they were crucifying the only begotten son of God or the anointed messiah of the Jewish people.

the Jews told pilate Jesus claimed to be their king and the only king they have is Caesar.. that is what set pilate to crucify Jesus..

No, it was Jesus crimes against the Roman state.

no it wasn't...

Yes, it was, that's why he was arrested. Don't you know anything about your religion?

he was arrested by the Jews and taken to the Romans....

pilate says he finds no fault, he had broken no Roman laws...

Sure, when he turned over the tables in the market, for which he was arrested and charged.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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9/28/2016 9:32:26 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 9:17:10 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:08:15 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 9/28/2016 8:36:52 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:26:17 PM, Harikrish wrote:
So the Jews were innocent because they were subject to Roman law and lacked any authority to put anyone to death.

They are not guilty for doing the crucifixion. But by what the Bible tells, they are guilty for false witness.
Pilate said he did not find Jesus guilty of breaking any Roman law, yet he ordered his soldiers to crucify Jesus.
It didn't matter what the Jews thought. Roman authority was final even when they were crucifying the only begotten son of God or the anointed messiah of the Jewish people.

the Jews told pilate Jesus claimed to be their king and the only king they have is Caesar.. that is what set pilate to crucify Jesus..

Jesus claimed to be the Messiah that was promised to the Jews. Jesus was asked if he was the messiah of the Jews. Jesus lied and said his kingdom was not of this world. That was an insult to the intelligence of those trying Jesus. They crucified him regardless of his claims of alien status.