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The biblical Genesis account

Smithereens
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9/22/2016 2:07:55 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
Christians tend to be young earth creationists due to a strict, literal reading of the Genesis account. However, I'd like to point out certain facts that lend credit to the idea that the bible rather supports an old earth model.

Firstly, the nature of the Genesis account itself is quite similar to the aural traditions of most ancient races. Every ancient culture describes their beginning as if it were the beginning of the universe, and not just the start of their particular tribe. Those are then told as stories that follow the founders of their tribe and are passed down from generation to generation. Genesis appears to be a written down copy of this aural tradition. In other words, the author never intended the creation account to be mistaken for the creation of the universe because it was culturally normative to describe the start of the race as the start of the universe. Every ancient culture does this, and the fact that people nowadays take them at face value is the cause of so many variations of a creation myth.

Secondly, the Genesis account describes the first 'humans' as coexisting with human civilisation. Not long after they are made, Adam and Eve are booted out of Eden, have children and watch as they marry other women and found cities. The Genesis account does not describe the women they married as being created because they were foreigners. Humanity already existed by the time Adam and Eve came along. However, true to ancient tradition, Adam and Eve were recognised as the prime ancestors of the Hebrews and thus their creation mythology starts with Adam and Eve as the first humans in the world.

Thirdly, it should be expected that Hebrew aural traditions were somehow preserved. Every ancient custom holds their traditions as sacred, thus if anything could be recorded, it would be their aural history. Knowing that the Hebrews would have attempted to preserve their aural traditions, where would be a logical place for us to find them? Omg... Genesis??

In conclusion, the Hebrews had aural traditions that were identical to every other ancient culture. Their traditions described the start of their race as the start of the universe, even though it actually wasn't. This is further supported by the fact that Genesis mentions other humans who weren't involved in the creation in passing, without actually talking about them, indicating that humanity predated the creation account. From this we can establish that the Hebrew race started some 5500 years ago and there was at some point a very notable early ancestor couple named Adam and Eve, who fore-fathered this race. The aural traditions they started continued for several thousand years before finally being recorded by Moses in the account named Genesis.
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tarantula
Posts: 859
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9/22/2016 2:18:35 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 2:07:55 PM, Smithereens wrote:
Christians tend to be young earth creationists due to a strict, literal reading of the Genesis account. However, I'd like to point out certain facts that lend credit to the idea that the bible rather supports an old earth model.

Firstly, the nature of the Genesis account itself is quite similar to the aural traditions of most ancient races. Every ancient culture describes their beginning as if it were the beginning of the universe, and not just the start of their particular tribe. Those are then told as stories that follow the founders of their tribe and are passed down from generation to generation. Genesis appears to be a written down copy of this aural tradition. In other words, the author never intended the creation account to be mistaken for the creation of the universe because it was culturally normative to describe the start of the race as the start of the universe. Every ancient culture does this, and the fact that people nowadays take them at face value is the cause of so many variations of a creation myth.

Secondly, the Genesis account describes the first 'humans' as coexisting with human civilisation. Not long after they are made, Adam and Eve are booted out of Eden, have children and watch as they marry other women and found cities. The Genesis account does not describe the women they married as being created because they were foreigners. Humanity already existed by the time Adam and Eve came along. However, true to ancient tradition, Adam and Eve were recognised as the prime ancestors of the Hebrews and thus their creation mythology starts with Adam and Eve as the first humans in the world.

Thirdly, it should be expected that Hebrew aural traditions were somehow preserved. Every ancient custom holds their traditions as sacred, thus if anything could be recorded, it would be their aural history. Knowing that the Hebrews would have attempted to preserve their aural traditions, where would be a logical place for us to find them? Omg... Genesis??

In conclusion, the Hebrews had aural traditions that were identical to every other ancient culture. Their traditions described the start of their race as the start of the universe, even though it actually wasn't. This is further supported by the fact that Genesis mentions other humans who weren't involved in the creation in passing, without actually talking about them, indicating that humanity predated the creation account. From this we can establish that the Hebrew race started some 5500 years ago and there was at some point a very notable early ancestor couple named Adam and Eve, who fore-fathered this race. The aural traditions they started continued for several thousand years before finally being recorded by Moses in the account named Genesis.

Most Christians are NOT YECs only the more extreme ones!

There is no verifiable evidence the Biblical god exists, it seems like a very human creation to me.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,379
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9/22/2016 2:30:59 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 2:07:55 PM, Smithereens wrote:
Christians tend to be young earth creationists due to a strict, literal reading of the Genesis account. However, I'd like to point out certain facts that lend credit to the idea that the bible rather supports an old earth model.

Firstly, the nature of the Genesis account itself is quite similar to the aural traditions of most ancient races. Every ancient culture describes their beginning as if it were the beginning of the universe, and not just the start of their particular tribe. Those are then told as stories that follow the founders of their tribe and are passed down from generation to generation. Genesis appears to be a written down copy of this aural tradition. In other words, the author never intended the creation account to be mistaken for the creation of the universe because it was culturally normative to describe the start of the race as the start of the universe. Every ancient culture does this, and the fact that people nowadays take them at face value is the cause of so many variations of a creation myth.

Secondly, the Genesis account describes the first 'humans' as coexisting with human civilisation. Not long after they are made, Adam and Eve are booted out of Eden, have children and watch as they marry other women and found cities. The Genesis account does not describe the women they married as being created because they were foreigners. Humanity already existed by the time Adam and Eve came along. However, true to ancient tradition, Adam and Eve were recognised as the prime ancestors of the Hebrews and thus their creation mythology starts with Adam and Eve as the first humans in the world.

Thirdly, it should be expected that Hebrew aural traditions were somehow preserved. Every ancient custom holds their traditions as sacred, thus if anything could be recorded, it would be their aural history. Knowing that the Hebrews would have attempted to preserve their aural traditions, where would be a logical place for us to find them? Omg... Genesis??

In conclusion, the Hebrews had aural traditions that were identical to every other ancient culture. Their traditions described the start of their race as the start of the universe, even though it actually wasn't. This is further supported by the fact that Genesis mentions other humans who weren't involved in the creation in passing, without actually talking about them, indicating that humanity predated the creation account. From this we can establish that the Hebrew race started some 5500 years ago and there was at some point a very notable early ancestor couple named Adam and Eve, who fore-fathered this race. The aural traditions they started continued for several thousand years before finally being recorded by Moses in the account named Genesis.
The real problem per the non-believer begins in the very first verse in Genesis.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the real focal point. If you're coming at this as a non-believer (non-Christian), then you would need to address Genesis 1:1 before going any further, because unless said Creator doesn't exist, the possibilities concerning creation are pretty much open. The debate on old earth vs. young earth creationism from a Christian standpoint primarily centers on scriptural interpretation.

If you think the concept of a created mother and father of all is a Biblical and ancient world myth, then what about the Creator described in Genesis?
Smithereens
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9/22/2016 2:37:15 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 2:30:59 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the real focal point. If you're coming at this as a non-believer (non-Christian), then you would need to address Genesis 1:1 before going any further, because unless said Creator doesn't exist, the possibilities concerning creation are pretty much open. The debate on old earth vs. young earth creationism from a Christian standpoint primarily centers on scriptural interpretation.

If you think the concept of a created mother and father of all is a Biblical and ancient world myth, then what about the Creator described in Genesis?

Why do you think the first verse describes an event that actually happened? I just explained why it was normal for cultures to tell their children about how they were created as the first people when they weren't. The Genesis account is no different.
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RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,379
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9/22/2016 2:50:00 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 2:37:15 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:30:59 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the real focal point. If you're coming at this as a non-believer (non-Christian), then you would need to address Genesis 1:1 before going any further, because unless said Creator doesn't exist, the possibilities concerning creation are pretty much open. The debate on old earth vs. young earth creationism from a Christian standpoint primarily centers on scriptural interpretation.

If you think the concept of a created mother and father of all is a Biblical and ancient world myth, then what about the Creator described in Genesis?

Why do you think the first verse describes an event that actually happened? I just explained why it was normal for cultures to tell their children about how they were created as the first people when they weren't. The Genesis account is no different.
Because I believe that the Creator per the Bible is a real God. I believe we were created as opposed to evolved.

You have to admit (I would think), that the actual existence of said creator puts a different spin on things concerning human origin. If God doesn't exist, then there's logic in your viewpoint. If God does exist, then changes the landscape a bit, don't you think?
Silly_Billy
Posts: 645
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9/22/2016 2:57:20 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 2:50:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:37:15 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:30:59 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the real focal point. If you're coming at this as a non-believer (non-Christian), then you would need to address Genesis 1:1 before going any further, because unless said Creator doesn't exist, the possibilities concerning creation are pretty much open. The debate on old earth vs. young earth creationism from a Christian standpoint primarily centers on scriptural interpretation.

If you think the concept of a created mother and father of all is a Biblical and ancient world myth, then what about the Creator described in Genesis?

Why do you think the first verse describes an event that actually happened? I just explained why it was normal for cultures to tell their children about how they were created as the first people when they weren't. The Genesis account is no different.
Because I believe that the Creator per the Bible is a real God. I believe we were created as opposed to evolved.

You have to admit (I would think), that the actual existence of said creator puts a different spin on things concerning human origin. If God doesn't exist, then there's logic in your viewpoint. If God does exist, then changes the landscape a bit, don't you think?

Not in my perspective and I will tell you why. If God does exist, than God would have been smart enough to come up with evolution and implement it. Evolution does not discredit God, it only puts a spin on the tales in the Bible which again, does not discredit God. The only thing that does discredit God is to insist that he is a moron who made a flawed creation.
Smithereens
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9/22/2016 2:58:33 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 2:50:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:37:15 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:30:59 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the real focal point. If you're coming at this as a non-believer (non-Christian), then you would need to address Genesis 1:1 before going any further, because unless said Creator doesn't exist, the possibilities concerning creation are pretty much open. The debate on old earth vs. young earth creationism from a Christian standpoint primarily centers on scriptural interpretation.

If you think the concept of a created mother and father of all is a Biblical and ancient world myth, then what about the Creator described in Genesis?

Why do you think the first verse describes an event that actually happened? I just explained why it was normal for cultures to tell their children about how they were created as the first people when they weren't. The Genesis account is no different.
Because I believe that the Creator per the Bible is a real God. I believe we were created as opposed to evolved.

You have to admit (I would think), that the actual existence of said creator puts a different spin on things concerning human origin. If God doesn't exist, then there's logic in your viewpoint. If God does exist, then changes the landscape a bit, don't you think?

If God does exist, why would things be different? Assuming it's factual that the genesis account is a recorded aural tradition, this doesn't change if God does or doesn't exist. In much the same way, god existing does not change the fact that I didn't eat breakfast yesterday. It didn't happen, and god existing doesn't have any relevance to it not happening.
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RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,379
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9/22/2016 11:46:00 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 2:57:20 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:50:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:37:15 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:30:59 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the real focal point. If you're coming at this as a non-believer (non-Christian), then you would need to address Genesis 1:1 before going any further, because unless said Creator doesn't exist, the possibilities concerning creation are pretty much open. The debate on old earth vs. young earth creationism from a Christian standpoint primarily centers on scriptural interpretation.

If you think the concept of a created mother and father of all is a Biblical and ancient world myth, then what about the Creator described in Genesis?

Why do you think the first verse describes an event that actually happened? I just explained why it was normal for cultures to tell their children about how they were created as the first people when they weren't. The Genesis account is no different.
Because I believe that the Creator per the Bible is a real God. I believe we were created as opposed to evolved.

You have to admit (I would think), that the actual existence of said creator puts a different spin on things concerning human origin. If God doesn't exist, then there's logic in your viewpoint. If God does exist, then changes the landscape a bit, don't you think?

Not in my perspective and I will tell you why. If God does exist, than God would have been smart enough to come up with evolution and implement it. Evolution does not discredit God, it only puts a spin on the tales in the Bible which again, does not discredit God. The only thing that does discredit God is to insist that he is a moron who made a flawed creation.

1. If God implemented evolution, wouldn't He qualify, as you put it, a moron? What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death?

2. Since you are a part of what would be God's creation, are you implying that you're flawed?
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,379
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9/22/2016 11:51:47 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 2:58:33 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:50:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:37:15 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:30:59 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the real focal point. If you're coming at this as a non-believer (non-Christian), then you would need to address Genesis 1:1 before going any further, because unless said Creator doesn't exist, the possibilities concerning creation are pretty much open. The debate on old earth vs. young earth creationism from a Christian standpoint primarily centers on scriptural interpretation.

If you think the concept of a created mother and father of all is a Biblical and ancient world myth, then what about the Creator described in Genesis?

Why do you think the first verse describes an event that actually happened? I just explained why it was normal for cultures to tell their children about how they were created as the first people when they weren't. The Genesis account is no different.
Because I believe that the Creator per the Bible is a real God. I believe we were created as opposed to evolved.

You have to admit (I would think), that the actual existence of said creator puts a different spin on things concerning human origin. If God doesn't exist, then there's logic in your viewpoint. If God does exist, then changes the landscape a bit, don't you think?

If God does exist, why would things be different? Assuming it's factual that the genesis account is a recorded aural tradition, this doesn't change if God does or doesn't exist. In much the same way, god existing does not change the fact that I didn't eat breakfast yesterday. It didn't happen, and god existing doesn't have any relevance to it not happening.
I'm not saying that if God exists, things would be have to be different. But if God exists, can you insist that God had to have implemented evolution? Is God bound to evolution, or, could God have created humans without using evolution?

Basically your question is being turned around.
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
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9/22/2016 11:58:30 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 11:51:47 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
I'm not saying that if God exists, things would be have to be different. But if God exists, can you insist that God had to have implemented evolution? Is God bound to evolution, or, could God have created humans without using evolution?

Basically your question is being turned around.

The existence of God does not change history. If something happened, it happened regardless of whether or not god was there. History doesn't change for anything. If evolution occurred, then there's no way to argue that it didn't, with or without god.

You have some cognitive predisposition to naturally assume God has been responsible for quite a few things that he didn't do. For example why would God make the world in 6 days? Saying that 'I would expect God to do that' pretends that you have knowledge of god that you can't possibly have.

There is nothing different about the propositions that the world is old and the world is young from a god's perspective. Either would be equally plausible to him, so it's fallacious to assume that the world is young because god exists. I could argue that God's existence proves the earth is old.
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RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,379
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9/23/2016 12:01:42 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 11:58:30 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:51:47 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
I'm not saying that if God exists, things would be have to be different. But if God exists, can you insist that God had to have implemented evolution? Is God bound to evolution, or, could God have created humans without using evolution?

Basically your question is being turned around.

The existence of God does not change history. If something happened, it happened regardless of whether or not god was there. History doesn't change for anything. If evolution occurred, then there's no way to argue that it didn't, with or without god.

You have some cognitive predisposition to naturally assume God has been responsible for quite a few things that he didn't do. For example why would God make the world in 6 days? Saying that 'I would expect God to do that' pretends that you have knowledge of god that you can't possibly have.

There is nothing different about the propositions that the world is old and the world is young from a god's perspective. Either would be equally plausible to him, so it's fallacious to assume that the world is young because god exists. I could argue that God's existence proves the earth is old.
Maybe I should first ask, do you believe God exists?
Silly_Billy
Posts: 645
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9/23/2016 12:17:55 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 11:46:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:57:20 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:50:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:37:15 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:30:59 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the real focal point. If you're coming at this as a non-believer (non-Christian), then you would need to address Genesis 1:1 before going any further, because unless said Creator doesn't exist, the possibilities concerning creation are pretty much open. The debate on old earth vs. young earth creationism from a Christian standpoint primarily centers on scriptural interpretation.

If you think the concept of a created mother and father of all is a Biblical and ancient world myth, then what about the Creator described in Genesis?

Why do you think the first verse describes an event that actually happened? I just explained why it was normal for cultures to tell their children about how they were created as the first people when they weren't. The Genesis account is no different.
Because I believe that the Creator per the Bible is a real God. I believe we were created as opposed to evolved.

You have to admit (I would think), that the actual existence of said creator puts a different spin on things concerning human origin. If God doesn't exist, then there's logic in your viewpoint. If God does exist, then changes the landscape a bit, don't you think?

Not in my perspective and I will tell you why. If God does exist, than God would have been smart enough to come up with evolution and implement it. Evolution does not discredit God, it only puts a spin on the tales in the Bible which again, does not discredit God. The only thing that does discredit God is to insist that he is a moron who made a flawed creation.

1. If God implemented evolution, wouldn't He qualify, as you put it, a moron? What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death?

What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death? What kind of a whimsical non-question is that? Let me ask you, what is it about creationism that nullifies atrocities and death?


2. Since you are a part of what would be God's creation, are you implying that you're flawed?

And again, what kind of a whimsical non-question is that? Is that the best question that you can come up with? Have I implied anywhere that I am perfect or something? Or are you considering yourself to be perfect as you are God's creation and all? Talk about an Ego if that is the case!

I know it's a bit hard but can you please try to come up with something a bit more intelligent? You could try... I don't know, an actual argument or something.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,379
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9/23/2016 12:28:55 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:17:55 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:46:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:57:20 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:50:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:37:15 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:30:59 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the real focal point. If you're coming at this as a non-believer (non-Christian), then you would need to address Genesis 1:1 before going any further, because unless said Creator doesn't exist, the possibilities concerning creation are pretty much open. The debate on old earth vs. young earth creationism from a Christian standpoint primarily centers on scriptural interpretation.

If you think the concept of a created mother and father of all is a Biblical and ancient world myth, then what about the Creator described in Genesis?

Why do you think the first verse describes an event that actually happened? I just explained why it was normal for cultures to tell their children about how they were created as the first people when they weren't. The Genesis account is no different.
Because I believe that the Creator per the Bible is a real God. I believe we were created as opposed to evolved.

You have to admit (I would think), that the actual existence of said creator puts a different spin on things concerning human origin. If God doesn't exist, then there's logic in your viewpoint. If God does exist, then changes the landscape a bit, don't you think?

Not in my perspective and I will tell you why. If God does exist, than God would have been smart enough to come up with evolution and implement it. Evolution does not discredit God, it only puts a spin on the tales in the Bible which again, does not discredit God. The only thing that does discredit God is to insist that he is a moron who made a flawed creation.

1. If God implemented evolution, wouldn't He qualify, as you put it, a moron? What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death?

What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death? What kind of a whimsical non-question is that? Let me ask you, what is it about creationism that nullifies atrocities and death?


2. Since you are a part of what would be God's creation, are you implying that you're flawed?

And again, what kind of a whimsical non-question is that? Is that the best question that you can come up with? Have I implied anywhere that I am perfect or something? Or are you considering yourself to be perfect as you are God's creation and all? Talk about an Ego if that is the case!

I know it's a bit hard but can you please try to come up with something a bit more intelligent? You could try... I don't know, an actual argument or something.
i asked 2 simple questions. Somehow this resulted in you jumping to conclusions. If you think they're nonsensical, by all means, don't answer them.
RoderickSpode
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9/23/2016 12:32:52 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:18:08 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:01:42 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
Maybe I should first ask, do you believe God exists?

Yes.
Ok. So considering that God did something we can't comprehend, the creation of a universe with life (we have no blue print on how to do such a thing), how can any of us claim God had to have created life via evolution?

Or I don't know. Maybe you are able to explain to me the mechanics of creating a universe.
Silly_Billy
Posts: 645
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9/23/2016 12:33:17 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:28:55 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:17:55 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:46:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:57:20 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:50:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:37:15 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:30:59 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the real focal point. If you're coming at this as a non-believer (non-Christian), then you would need to address Genesis 1:1 before going any further, because unless said Creator doesn't exist, the possibilities concerning creation are pretty much open. The debate on old earth vs. young earth creationism from a Christian standpoint primarily centers on scriptural interpretation.

If you think the concept of a created mother and father of all is a Biblical and ancient world myth, then what about the Creator described in Genesis?

Why do you think the first verse describes an event that actually happened? I just explained why it was normal for cultures to tell their children about how they were created as the first people when they weren't. The Genesis account is no different.
Because I believe that the Creator per the Bible is a real God. I believe we were created as opposed to evolved.

You have to admit (I would think), that the actual existence of said creator puts a different spin on things concerning human origin. If God doesn't exist, then there's logic in your viewpoint. If God does exist, then changes the landscape a bit, don't you think?

Not in my perspective and I will tell you why. If God does exist, than God would have been smart enough to come up with evolution and implement it. Evolution does not discredit God, it only puts a spin on the tales in the Bible which again, does not discredit God. The only thing that does discredit God is to insist that he is a moron who made a flawed creation.

1. If God implemented evolution, wouldn't He qualify, as you put it, a moron? What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death?

What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death? What kind of a whimsical non-question is that? Let me ask you, what is it about creationism that nullifies atrocities and death?


2. Since you are a part of what would be God's creation, are you implying that you're flawed?

And again, what kind of a whimsical non-question is that? Is that the best question that you can come up with? Have I implied anywhere that I am perfect or something? Or are you considering yourself to be perfect as you are God's creation and all? Talk about an Ego if that is the case!

I know it's a bit hard but can you please try to come up with something a bit more intelligent? You could try... I don't know, an actual argument or something.
i asked 2 simple questions. Somehow this resulted in you jumping to conclusions. If you think they're nonsensical, by all means, don't answer them.

Okay i"ll bite.

1. If God implemented evolution, wouldn't He qualify, as you put it, a moron?

No, not at all. I think evolution is a whole lot smarter than creationism in which God has to come down from his mountain every few thousand years to create some more new species because his old ones keep going extinct.

What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death?

Absolutely nothing.

2. Since you are a part of what would be God's creation, are you implying that you're flawed?

Sure i am, i'm loosing my hair, that's a flaw.
Smithereens
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9/23/2016 12:36:36 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:32:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:18:08 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:01:42 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
Maybe I should first ask, do you believe God exists?

Yes.
Ok. So considering that God did something we can't comprehend, the creation of a universe with life (we have no blue print on how to do such a thing), how can any of us claim God had to have created life via evolution?

Or I don't know. Maybe you are able to explain to me the mechanics of creating a universe.

If you believe the universe was created, why would a 6 day creation be any different to a 12 billion year creation? What difference is that to a god?
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RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,379
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9/23/2016 12:43:36 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:33:17 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:28:55 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:17:55 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:46:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:57:20 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:50:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:37:15 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:30:59 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the real focal point. If you're coming at this as a non-believer (non-Christian), then you would need to address Genesis 1:1 before going any further, because unless said Creator doesn't exist, the possibilities concerning creation are pretty much open. The debate on old earth vs. young earth creationism from a Christian standpoint primarily centers on scriptural interpretation.

If you think the concept of a created mother and father of all is a Biblical and ancient world myth, then what about the Creator described in Genesis?

Why do you think the first verse describes an event that actually happened? I just explained why it was normal for cultures to tell their children about how they were created as the first people when they weren't. The Genesis account is no different.
Because I believe that the Creator per the Bible is a real God. I believe we were created as opposed to evolved.

You have to admit (I would think), that the actual existence of said creator puts a different spin on things concerning human origin. If God doesn't exist, then there's logic in your viewpoint. If God does exist, then changes the landscape a bit, don't you think?

Not in my perspective and I will tell you why. If God does exist, than God would have been smart enough to come up with evolution and implement it. Evolution does not discredit God, it only puts a spin on the tales in the Bible which again, does not discredit God. The only thing that does discredit God is to insist that he is a moron who made a flawed creation.

1. If God implemented evolution, wouldn't He qualify, as you put it, a moron? What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death?

What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death? What kind of a whimsical non-question is that? Let me ask you, what is it about creationism that nullifies atrocities and death?


2. Since you are a part of what would be God's creation, are you implying that you're flawed?

And again, what kind of a whimsical non-question is that? Is that the best question that you can come up with? Have I implied anywhere that I am perfect or something? Or are you considering yourself to be perfect as you are God's creation and all? Talk about an Ego if that is the case!

I know it's a bit hard but can you please try to come up with something a bit more intelligent? You could try... I don't know, an actual argument or something.
i asked 2 simple questions. Somehow this resulted in you jumping to conclusions. If you think they're nonsensical, by all means, don't answer them.

Okay i"ll bite.

Ah!
1. If God implemented evolution, wouldn't He qualify, as you put it, a moron?

No, not at all. I think evolution is a whole lot smarter than creationism in which God has to come down from his mountain every few thousand years to create some more new species because his old ones keep going extinct.

What do you mean God has to come down from his mountain every few thousand years to create some new species? Are you talking about humans (i.e., the flood in Genesis), or the extinction of animal species?
What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death?

Absolutely nothing.

2. Since you are a part of what would be God's creation, are you implying that you're flawed?

Sure i am, i'm loosing my hair, that's a flaw.
Losing hair doesn't cause any physical pain. Society has just decided at some point that having a full head of hair is more attractive. I don't really consider that a flaw.

But that's my fault, I'll be more to the point. Do you know it all? Do you possess all knowledge?
RoderickSpode
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9/23/2016 12:46:50 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:36:36 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:32:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:18:08 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:01:42 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
Maybe I should first ask, do you believe God exists?

Yes.
Ok. So considering that God did something we can't comprehend, the creation of a universe with life (we have no blue print on how to do such a thing), how can any of us claim God had to have created life via evolution?

Or I don't know. Maybe you are able to explain to me the mechanics of creating a universe.

If you believe the universe was created, why would a 6 day creation be any different to a 12 billion year creation? What difference is that to a god?
For the record, I'm not a YEC or OEC. I'm open to both possibilities.

It's not about what's different, but what actually happened during creation. My point is that if God created a universe, something we can't do, why would I limit Him in terms of a creation time span? And of course, why would you limit God to evolution?
Smithereens
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9/23/2016 12:51:12 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:46:50 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:36:36 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:32:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:18:08 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:01:42 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
Maybe I should first ask, do you believe God exists?

Yes.
Ok. So considering that God did something we can't comprehend, the creation of a universe with life (we have no blue print on how to do such a thing), how can any of us claim God had to have created life via evolution?

Or I don't know. Maybe you are able to explain to me the mechanics of creating a universe.

If you believe the universe was created, why would a 6 day creation be any different to a 12 billion year creation? What difference is that to a god?
For the record, I'm not a YEC or OEC. I'm open to both possibilities.

It's not about what's different, but what actually happened during creation. My point is that if God created a universe, something we can't do, why would I limit Him in terms of a creation time span? And of course, why would you limit God to evolution?

This is not an issue of limits. The fact is that evolution happened, the bible does not contradict an old earth model, and God is perfectly within his rights to create the universe however he wants. The YEC model on the other hand has some massive problems which the OEC doesn't have.
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RoderickSpode
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9/23/2016 12:53:37 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:51:12 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:46:50 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:36:36 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:32:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:18:08 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:01:42 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
Maybe I should first ask, do you believe God exists?

Yes.
Ok. So considering that God did something we can't comprehend, the creation of a universe with life (we have no blue print on how to do such a thing), how can any of us claim God had to have created life via evolution?

Or I don't know. Maybe you are able to explain to me the mechanics of creating a universe.

If you believe the universe was created, why would a 6 day creation be any different to a 12 billion year creation? What difference is that to a god?
For the record, I'm not a YEC or OEC. I'm open to both possibilities.

It's not about what's different, but what actually happened during creation. My point is that if God created a universe, something we can't do, why would I limit Him in terms of a creation time span? And of course, why would you limit God to evolution?

This is not an issue of limits. The fact is that evolution happened, the bible does not contradict an old earth model, and God is perfectly within his rights to create the universe however he wants. The YEC model on the other hand has some massive problems which the OEC doesn't have.
And you don't think OEC has problems in relation to evolution?
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
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9/23/2016 12:59:12 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:53:37 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
And you don't think OEC has problems in relation to evolution?

The evolutionary 'problems' are merely the cries of YEC who incorrectly insist that the bible teaches 6 day creation of the universe when it is actually recording an Ancient Hebrew tradition. If they understood that what they were reading is not an account of the universe beginning they would all be OEC. They are essentially attacking evolution because they have already been convinced that the earth must be young, not because evolution actually has problems.
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Silly_Billy
Posts: 645
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9/23/2016 1:05:40 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:43:36 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:33:17 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:28:55 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:17:55 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:46:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:57:20 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:50:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:37:15 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:30:59 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the real focal point. If you're coming at this as a non-believer (non-Christian), then you would need to address Genesis 1:1 before going any further, because unless said Creator doesn't exist, the possibilities concerning creation are pretty much open. The debate on old earth vs. young earth creationism from a Christian standpoint primarily centers on scriptural interpretation.

If you think the concept of a created mother and father of all is a Biblical and ancient world myth, then what about the Creator described in Genesis?

Why do you think the first verse describes an event that actually happened? I just explained why it was normal for cultures to tell their children about how they were created as the first people when they weren't. The Genesis account is no different.
Because I believe that the Creator per the Bible is a real God. I believe we were created as opposed to evolved.

You have to admit (I would think), that the actual existence of said creator puts a different spin on things concerning human origin. If God doesn't exist, then there's logic in your viewpoint. If God does exist, then changes the landscape a bit, don't you think?

Not in my perspective and I will tell you why. If God does exist, than God would have been smart enough to come up with evolution and implement it. Evolution does not discredit God, it only puts a spin on the tales in the Bible which again, does not discredit God. The only thing that does discredit God is to insist that he is a moron who made a flawed creation.

1. If God implemented evolution, wouldn't He qualify, as you put it, a moron? What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death?

What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death? What kind of a whimsical non-question is that? Let me ask you, what is it about creationism that nullifies atrocities and death?


2. Since you are a part of what would be God's creation, are you implying that you're flawed?

And again, what kind of a whimsical non-question is that? Is that the best question that you can come up with? Have I implied anywhere that I am perfect or something? Or are you considering yourself to be perfect as you are God's creation and all? Talk about an Ego if that is the case!

I know it's a bit hard but can you please try to come up with something a bit more intelligent? You could try... I don't know, an actual argument or something.
i asked 2 simple questions. Somehow this resulted in you jumping to conclusions. If you think they're nonsensical, by all means, don't answer them.

Okay i"ll bite.

Ah!
1. If God implemented evolution, wouldn't He qualify, as you put it, a moron?

No, not at all. I think evolution is a whole lot smarter than creationism in which God has to come down from his mountain every few thousand years to create some more new species because his old ones keep going extinct.

What do you mean God has to come down from his mountain every few thousand years to create some new species? Are you talking about humans (i.e., the flood in Genesis), or the extinction of animal species?
What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death?

Absolutely nothing.

2. Since you are a part of what would be God's creation, are you implying that you're flawed?

Sure i am, i'm loosing my hair, that's a flaw.
Losing hair doesn't cause any physical pain. Society has just decided at some point that having a full head of hair is more attractive. I don't really consider that a flaw.

But that's my fault, I'll be more to the point. Do you know it all? Do you possess all knowledge?

No i don't but that is hardly the point. The question is not if i possess all the knowledge, but whether the biblical Genesis account is factual or false. I have given my argument on that issue and so far i have not seen any counter argument to convince me of the reverse. Evolution is elegant, brilliant, and in spite of the complexity that has come from it, simplicity itself. Just imagine, the act of creating a simple single living cell, self-replicating, that goes on to become all the life that we know today, evolving eon after eon for billions of years to become the pinnacle of life itself, mankind. It is an amazing thing truly worthy of God.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,379
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9/23/2016 1:07:02 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:59:12 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:53:37 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
And you don't think OEC has problems in relation to evolution?

The evolutionary 'problems' are merely the cries of YEC who incorrectly insist that the bible teaches 6 day creation of the universe when it is actually recording an Ancient Hebrew tradition. If they understood that what they were reading is not an account of the universe beginning they would all be OEC. They are essentially attacking evolution because they have already been convinced that the earth must be young, not because evolution actually has problems.
OEC is not the same thing as theistic evolution. Proponents of OEC generally believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God (i.e., Hugh Ross). And this includes of course the historical existence of Adam and Eve. So I'm not clear on your stance. Do you believe, for instance, that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of humanity?
keithprosser
Posts: 2,034
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9/23/2016 1:08:14 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
We don't know what the oral traditions of the Hebrew or their neighbours were because by definition they were not written down for archaeologists to dig up and translate.

Probably the preserved creation myth of the region (after genesi) is the Babylonian enuma elish, the text of which is easily found on the 'net. I hope members will seek it out and make their own judgement, but my view is that the parallels ate very weak.

Whatever the unknown prior oral tradition, I think genesis was written by yhwhist priests during the Babylonian exile to be distinctive, more specifically as part of the yhwhist priests plann to preserve the identity of the Jewish people(or their yhwhist version of that identity).

In case any one cares, I'm a atheist!
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
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9/23/2016 1:10:11 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 1:07:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
OEC is not the same thing as theistic evolution. Proponents of OEC generally believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God (i.e., Hugh Ross). And this includes of course the historical existence of Adam and Eve. So I'm not clear on your stance. Do you believe, for instance, that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of humanity?

Yes I'm a typical christian in that regard. However, Old earth creationism from what I'm aware holds that the creation point was the big bang, and it occurred some 14 billion years ago roughly. This is what I believe.
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RoderickSpode
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9/23/2016 1:12:44 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 1:05:40 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:43:36 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:33:17 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:28:55 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:17:55 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:46:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:57:20 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:50:00 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:37:15 PM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/22/2016 2:30:59 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That's the real focal point. If you're coming at this as a non-believer (non-Christian), then you would need to address Genesis 1:1 before going any further, because unless said Creator doesn't exist, the possibilities concerning creation are pretty much open. The debate on old earth vs. young earth creationism from a Christian standpoint primarily centers on scriptural interpretation.

If you think the concept of a created mother and father of all is a Biblical and ancient world myth, then what about the Creator described in Genesis?

Why do you think the first verse describes an event that actually happened? I just explained why it was normal for cultures to tell their children about how they were created as the first people when they weren't. The Genesis account is no different.
Because I believe that the Creator per the Bible is a real God. I believe we were created as opposed to evolved.

You have to admit (I would think), that the actual existence of said creator puts a different spin on things concerning human origin. If God doesn't exist, then there's logic in your viewpoint. If God does exist, then changes the landscape a bit, don't you think?

Not in my perspective and I will tell you why. If God does exist, than God would have been smart enough to come up with evolution and implement it. Evolution does not discredit God, it only puts a spin on the tales in the Bible which again, does not discredit God. The only thing that does discredit God is to insist that he is a moron who made a flawed creation.

1. If God implemented evolution, wouldn't He qualify, as you put it, a moron? What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death?

What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death? What kind of a whimsical non-question is that? Let me ask you, what is it about creationism that nullifies atrocities and death?


2. Since you are a part of what would be God's creation, are you implying that you're flawed?

And again, what kind of a whimsical non-question is that? Is that the best question that you can come up with? Have I implied anywhere that I am perfect or something? Or are you considering yourself to be perfect as you are God's creation and all? Talk about an Ego if that is the case!

I know it's a bit hard but can you please try to come up with something a bit more intelligent? You could try... I don't know, an actual argument or something.
i asked 2 simple questions. Somehow this resulted in you jumping to conclusions. If you think they're nonsensical, by all means, don't answer them.

Okay i"ll bite.

Ah!
1. If God implemented evolution, wouldn't He qualify, as you put it, a moron?

No, not at all. I think evolution is a whole lot smarter than creationism in which God has to come down from his mountain every few thousand years to create some more new species because his old ones keep going extinct.

What do you mean God has to come down from his mountain every few thousand years to create some new species? Are you talking about humans (i.e., the flood in Genesis), or the extinction of animal species?
What is it about evolution that nullifies atrocities and death?

Absolutely nothing.

2. Since you are a part of what would be God's creation, are you implying that you're flawed?

Sure i am, i'm loosing my hair, that's a flaw.
Losing hair doesn't cause any physical pain. Society has just decided at some point that having a full head of hair is more attractive. I don't really consider that a flaw.

But that's my fault, I'll be more to the point. Do you know it all? Do you possess all knowledge?

No i don't but that is hardly the point. The question is not if i possess all the knowledge, but whether the biblical Genesis account is factual or false. I have given my argument on that issue and so far i have not seen any counter argument to convince me of the reverse. Evolution is elegant, brilliant, and in spite of the complexity that has come from it, simplicity itself. Just imagine, the act of creating a simple single living cell, self-replicating, that goes on to become all the life that we know today, evolving eon after eon for billions of years to become the pinnacle of life itself, mankind. It is an amazing thing truly worthy of God.
All you've really declared to me is your opinion on evolution being more intelligent than creation. If that's your opinion, I respect it. I can kind of understand since our society (movies, TV, etc.) has groomed evolution to appear more appealing. Yes, it looks somewhat intelligent when we story lines in programs like Star Trek, where they land on a planet inhabited by humanoids who assume some alien computer is a god akin to the gods of the ancient world on earth. But that's all you've really given me.

But yes, if you don't know it all, why should I take any particular notice of your opinion, since it's potentially flawed?
Smithereens
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9/23/2016 1:13:02 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 1:08:14 AM, keithprosser wrote:
We don't know what the oral traditions of the Hebrew or their neighbours were because by definition they were not written down for archaeologists to dig up and translate.

Probably the preserved creation myth of the region (after genesi) is the Babylonian enuma elish, the text of which is easily found on the 'net. I hope members will seek it out and make their own judgement, but my view is that the parallels ate very weak.

Whatever the unknown prior oral tradition, I think genesis was written by yhwhist priests during the Babylonian exile to be distinctive, more specifically as part of the yhwhist priests plann to preserve the identity of the Jewish people(or their yhwhist version of that identity).

In case any one cares, I'm a atheist!

Given the fact that virtually every ancient tradition is very similar (the earth was created in a short amount of time, not so long ago), it stands to reason that the Genesis account is the Hebrew's aural tradition, written down. It's not unusual for these things to be written down when written language develops.
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RoderickSpode
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9/23/2016 1:14:51 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 1:10:11 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/23/2016 1:07:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
OEC is not the same thing as theistic evolution. Proponents of OEC generally believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God (i.e., Hugh Ross). And this includes of course the historical existence of Adam and Eve. So I'm not clear on your stance. Do you believe, for instance, that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of humanity?

Yes I'm a typical christian in that regard. However, Old earth creationism from what I'm aware holds that the creation point was the big bang, and it occurred some 14 billion years ago roughly. This is what I believe.
Did Christ then die for the sins of the chain of common ancestors that humans allegedly evolved from? If so, where in the chain of common ancestry did this begin?
Smithereens
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9/23/2016 1:17:37 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 1:14:51 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 9/23/2016 1:10:11 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/23/2016 1:07:02 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
OEC is not the same thing as theistic evolution. Proponents of OEC generally believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God (i.e., Hugh Ross). And this includes of course the historical existence of Adam and Eve. So I'm not clear on your stance. Do you believe, for instance, that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of humanity?

Yes I'm a typical christian in that regard. However, Old earth creationism from what I'm aware holds that the creation point was the big bang, and it occurred some 14 billion years ago roughly. This is what I believe.
Did Christ then die for the sins of the chain of common ancestors that humans allegedly evolved from? If so, where in the chain of common ancestry did this begin?

At some point we definitely became aware of morality. This would have occurred after our species become distinct from our ancestors. In much the same way that babies don't comprehend good and evil, the first humans did not have a moral code. Over time, more and more humans began to be aware of it and that was when we had finally reached the image of god.
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