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Defend evolution

rnjs
Posts: 381
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9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?
Chaosism
Posts: 2,674
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9/22/2016 6:30:03 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

...What?

When you say "defend", I assume you mean to refute arguments for its falsehood and preserve arguments for its truth? If so, this doesn't translate well, because bible quotes are a part of the very thing you're trying to claim is valid (Begging the Question). Science, on the other hand, is merely a method of investigating the natural world, and to abstain from deferring to scientific research to defend evolution (a scientific theory) makes little sense. One could conceivably use outside sources to support the Bible, such as historical documents, but what did you have in mind as a means of defending evolution aside from science?

If I just didn't understand you properly, can you please elaborate?
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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9/22/2016 6:39:38 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

Theists don't understand the concept of requiring evidence prior to believing in something.

That's like telling someone to defend the idea that oxygen is reactive without science. It makes no sense.

Obviously nobody is going to tell you to defend creationism without referencing science lol.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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9/22/2016 7:50:50 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

If by "Quoting science" you mean, "using science", then no.

But then again, that's not a particularly good comparison, because whereas the Bibles claims to authority and accuracy are based on the contents of itself, who's primary claims cannot be independently validated with external evidence and thus it can claim to be accurate whether it is accurate or not; science is a system of collecting observations to generate evidence based conclusions and scientific claims should be independently validated through experiment, predictions and practical applications of the science itself.
Looncall
Posts: 463
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9/22/2016 8:34:35 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

One can look at evolution as an algorithm: reproduce with variation then select among the variants. Repeat. Result: change through time.

This is general and has even been used for things like antenna design.

If the system you are interested in has reproduction with variation and if anything imposes selection, evolution must happen.
The metaphysicist has no laboratory.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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9/22/2016 9:22:08 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

This is a strange equivocation you're doing. I assume you mean that people have challenged you to defend the Bible as a non-fiction book without citing scripture as the basis for that reasoning. Like the parts of the Bible that say the Bible is true are not legitimate validations of the truth of the Bible. You can understand why that would be a circular argument, right?

For the Theory of Evolution, there is no part of it that can be cited to justify itself. No part of the theory says "this theory is true." Rather, the theory simply describes a process that has been observed and makes conclusions based on evidence. The scientific method was used for innumerable scientific studies, the results of which were used to build the theory.

Asking someone to defend the theory without using science is a bit like asking someone to create a cake without using cooking. The Theory of Evolution is a result of scientific investigation. The Bible is not the result of the Bible.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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9/22/2016 11:54:46 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

Defend atomic theory without quoting science. Checkmate!

You can't claim a book is true from references within the very same book. You need outside evidence. Darwin's theory uses outside evidence like fossils, DNA, anatomy, observed evolution and much more.
Skeptical1
Posts: 698
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9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.
Magic doesn't exist.
Therefore, we got here by evolution.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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9/23/2016 12:03:40 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

On top of what I have said before this is a bad analogy. If evolution was based simply on the claims of Darwin't book and has no physical evidence like the supernatural claims of the bible then of course it would be in trouble. Evolution has evidence while Christianity does not.

The idea is the bible is true because the bible said so is like if I wrote down that I received a prophesy of a future supernatural event and then I saw it happen to me. In order for you to believe me you would want some evidence other than simply my book claiming it.
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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9/23/2016 12:13:40 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.
Magic doesn't exist.
Therefore, we got here by evolution.

Define magic?
Skeptical1
Posts: 698
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9/23/2016 12:18:19 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:13:40 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.
Magic doesn't exist.
Therefore, we got here by evolution.

Define magic?

Well, I don't mean illusions as performed by stage magicians - they definitely do exist, and are fun.

One reference from the dictionary is:

any extraordinary or mystical influence, charm, power, etc.

I tend to think of magic as anything claimed to produce a physical manifestation that doesn't have a cause rooted in natural, physical forces.
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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9/23/2016 12:31:47 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:18:19 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:13:40 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.
Magic doesn't exist.
Therefore, we got here by evolution.

Define magic?

Well, I don't mean illusions as performed by stage magicians - they definitely do exist, and are fun.

One reference from the dictionary is:

any extraordinary or mystical influence, charm, power, etc.

I tend to think of magic as anything claimed to produce a physical manifestation that doesn't have a cause rooted in natural, physical forces.

Okay good. I agree with both definitions. Magic, as illusions, do exist but are very natural. However, your "supernatural" definition. Well... to start i am agnostic atheist bc i do not know 100% anything and i am confident the answers are not found in "one" religion (organization). But... i do put spiritual in my beliefs as well bc you know what... i have had too many weird experiences that confuse me... things that can't be explained. I have written two of my strongest a lot here so sorry i am cutting and pasting... but i want your opinion on how i should be looking at this... bc i have no scientific explanation for many of what's happened to me:

A strong experience. I went to my friend's buddy's house. After some talking, ghost stuff came up. The guy told me he thinks he has something evil in his house, possibly out to get him. I doubted right away... i truly don't believe in this stuff bc i try to stay rational ... most people lie. But, he was serious, saying something had recently happened. I took off my necklace and told him to tell the "ghost" to spin it. He accepted right away. I told him to wait... i held my hand in a way to stabilize the necklace, which had a ring on it, so there was no spin. Then he proceeded, yelling at this "demon," calling it names and that it was a 'B' if it couldn't spin it and other profanities. It went from a slow spin to a violent spin to the right. I still didn't believe, so i told him to tell it to stop it, he yelled it, and it stopped. I said tell it to spin it to the left... it started violently spinning to the left. I dropped it. That was enough... a week later he dies.

Analysis: I was truly holding my hand as best i could to not spin it. I have tried this other times and what happened here can't be done again. It went from a big spin to the right, stopped, and left when commanded. The spin was so wide it felt if it was any more it would fall out of my hands... then it stopped, and did the same thing to the left.... I can't explain this.

My strongest experience. A short few years ago now, i started having re-occurring dreams of going to Vegas and looking for something i couldn't find. After about 3 or 4 of these dreams, my friends said lets go to Vegas in a bus. I am very introverted, i normally would have said no, but i was curious bc of the dreams so i went (Coincidence 1). After the first night of partying, i was getting ready to go to bed but got called to my friends room. Everyone crying when i got there, and found a friend in the bathroom throwing up blood every 3 to 4 minutes, looking pretty sick. Well, they called me bc i was sober and they were, well not... Cocaine, a drug i hate and don't do. I did E in a club earlier and was quite sober at the moment, having taken only a Klonopin (in normal amount) to help me sleep. I told them to call paramedics, the hotel ones came up and long story, said take him to the hospital after they saw him throw up. At this point, a feeling hit me (felt like an electric fuzzy feeling and simultaneously a thought "tell everyone to leave; you can heal him) (Coincidence 2). I doubted right away, but... told them to leave and they did. I sat there and watched him throw up 2 more times, not knowing what to do "no way the thought and feeling are anything," doubting, but walked up to him thinking if this doesn't work then i am going to the hospital (Coincidence 3). I touched his head, the "fuzzy" feeling i was getting literally felt like it drained from me, from my feet to the last of it leaving my hand on his forehead. Literally, as soon as the last of the fuzzy feeling left, simultaneously, he went from looking like death, to a smile and sigh of relief... F'ing getting comfortable in his covers...(Coincidence 4).

Analysis: Dang... you tell me. Even after the spin event which happened first... i found a way to disprove it in my head... "freak coincidence this stuffs not real" ... then this! I put the Coincidence markers bc that is like hitting the lotto 4 times. Everything happened exactly on point... and this experience has me thinking.

These are two of probably 40 +/- experiences i have had. What am i suppose to think?
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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9/23/2016 1:03:32 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.
Magic doesn't exist.
Therefore, we got here by evolution.

So... back to this since i know you can't give me a rational explanation for what has happened other than freak coincidence.

The way i see it, we got here by both "magic" and evolution... i can't see why they can't work together. We are doing a great job trying to prove evolution (which is a fact) but the former is ... well, harder to explain. That doesn't mean we should abandon the idea that magic can have a hand in this world.
Skeptical1
Posts: 698
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9/23/2016 1:07:28 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:31:47 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:18:19 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:13:40 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.
Magic doesn't exist.
Therefore, we got here by evolution.

Define magic?

Well, I don't mean illusions as performed by stage magicians - they definitely do exist, and are fun.

One reference from the dictionary is:

any extraordinary or mystical influence, charm, power, etc.

I tend to think of magic as anything claimed to produce a physical manifestation that doesn't have a cause rooted in natural, physical forces.

Okay good. I agree with both definitions. Magic, as illusions, do exist but are very natural. However, your "supernatural" definition. Well... to start i am agnostic atheist bc i do not know 100% anything and i am confident the answers are not found in "one" religion (organization). But... i do put spiritual in my beliefs as well bc you know what... i have had too many weird experiences that confuse me... things that can't be explained. I have written two of my strongest a lot here so sorry i am cutting and pasting... but i want your opinion on how i should be looking at this... bc i have no scientific explanation for many of what's happened to me:

A strong experience. I went to my friend's buddy's house. After some talking, ghost stuff came up. The guy told me he thinks he has something evil in his house, possibly out to get him. I doubted right away... i truly don't believe in this stuff bc i try to stay rational ... most people lie. But, he was serious, saying something had recently happened. I took off my necklace and told him to tell the "ghost" to spin it. He accepted right away. I told him to wait... i held my hand in a way to stabilize the necklace, which had a ring on it, so there was no spin. Then he proceeded, yelling at this "demon," calling it names and that it was a 'B' if it couldn't spin it and other profanities. It went from a slow spin to a violent spin to the right. I still didn't believe, so i told him to tell it to stop it, he yelled it, and it stopped. I said tell it to spin it to the left... it started violently spinning to the left. I dropped it. That was enough... a week later he dies.

Analysis: I was truly holding my hand as best i could to not spin it. I have tried this other times and what happened here can't be done again. It went from a big spin to the right, stopped, and left when commanded. The spin was so wide it felt if it was any more it would fall out of my hands... then it stopped, and did the same thing to the left.... I can't explain this.

My strongest experience. A short few years ago now, i started having re-occurring dreams of going to Vegas and looking for something i couldn't find. After about 3 or 4 of these dreams, my friends said lets go to Vegas in a bus. I am very introverted, i normally would have said no, but i was curious bc of the dreams so i went (Coincidence 1). After the first night of partying, i was getting ready to go to bed but got called to my friends room. Everyone crying when i got there, and found a friend in the bathroom throwing up blood every 3 to 4 minutes, looking pretty sick. Well, they called me bc i was sober and they were, well not... Cocaine, a drug i hate and don't do. I did E in a club earlier and was quite sober at the moment, having taken only a Klonopin (in normal amount) to help me sleep. I told them to call paramedics, the hotel ones came up and long story, said take him to the hospital after they saw him throw up. At this point, a feeling hit me (felt like an electric fuzzy feeling and simultaneously a thought "tell everyone to leave; you can heal him) (Coincidence 2). I doubted right away, but... told them to leave and they did. I sat there and watched him throw up 2 more times, not knowing what to do "no way the thought and feeling are anything," doubting, but walked up to him thinking if this doesn't work then i am going to the hospital (Coincidence 3). I touched his head, the "fuzzy" feeling i was getting literally felt like it drained from me, from my feet to the last of it leaving my hand on his forehead. Literally, as soon as the last of the fuzzy feeling left, simultaneously, he went from looking like death, to a smile and sigh of relief... F'ing getting comfortable in his covers...(Coincidence 4).

Analysis: Dang... you tell me. Even after the spin event which happened first... i found a way to disprove it in my head... "freak coincidence this stuffs not real" ... then this! I put the Coincidence markers bc that is like hitting the lotto 4 times. Everything happened exactly on point... and this experience has me thinking.

These are two of probably 40 +/- experiences i have had. What am i suppose to think?

Well, you asked for my opinion, so I'll give it. You might not like my answer, but I have to be honest, it's not my intention to insult you.

Firstly, I think it's probably likely that everyone has had things happen to them that they can't logically explain. I know I have had quite a few, though none anywhere near as vivid as what you describe. That doesn't mean I automatically assume a "supernatural" explanation - it means I don't know what happened.

The way you describe it, you and your friends seem to enjoy partaking in mind-altering substances. I don't know a lot about that subject, but perhaps it may go part way to explaining things. Even if you weren't "high" on something at the time as far as you know, I believe some things have residual and after effects. There are also other psychological explanations.

I ask myself the following questions, and until I have satisfactory answers to them, I see no reason to accept the existence of spirits, ghosts, poltergeists, gods or any such creatures:

1. Why are these happenings never replicable in a controlled environment with real scientists around (I'm not talking about the charlatans you see on shows like Ghost Hunters, etc). James Randi has offered a million dollar prize for years for anyone who can reproduce any form of psychic or supernatural event under controlled conditions, but not once has anyone been able to do it. Are ghosts scared of labs? Your friend's "demon" was able to manifest on command when asked while you were there. Why not in Randi's lab, and you could have split the million dollars three ways?

2. Just because I can't see a natural explanation, does that mean there isn't one? How many times have you watched a stage illusionist, and thought "there is no possible way that what he just did could have happened"? It is physically impossible, and yet, because he is honest enough to admit otherwise, we know it isn't impossible. Not having an answer doesn't mean an implausible answer is the right one.

There are a number of questions I could raise in relation to specific things that people might suggest - such as "why is it that all spirits have alzheimers? They can only remember the initials of someone they knew while they were alive, not their whole name.

I have no doubt that what you claim happened is really what you think happened. I wasn't there, so I obviously can neither confirm nor deny it. I don't have anything against people who believe in ghosts, spirits, ESP, clairvoyance, or anything else I would call "woo-woo", but I do despise those frauds who make money from other people while deluding them about talking to their dead loved ones.

I've answered as best I can, hope it didn't cause offence.
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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9/23/2016 1:46:15 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
Thank you for your honest answer. It did not offend me at all bc i share your beliefs. I try my best to look at anything as logically as i can. Yet, things have happened that i need to also take into account (in my opinion).

"I don't know what happened"

I don't jump to conclusions myself. Man, if i was a theist... i would be saying Jesus helped me... or even that i am him. But no, that is not how i look at it bc there has to be a logical explanation that should be explored.

"Mind altering drugs"

Yes. I have done my fair share, yet responsibly. I know their effects. I also do not take hallucinogens. My mind is already too far out their to make it real lol. However, understand that i took that into account. Yet... as a whole, walking in my shoes, drugs or not... that shouldn't have been possible. I wasn't on drugs with the dream before, and even if i wasn't sober (which i was at this point), it still wouldn't explain why the events happened the way they did. Only thing i can say is i momentarily went insane and imagined all that... which i know isn't true, but it is a logical explanation.

The point in all this is that yes, i can explain it somehow or just say it isn't explainable now and could be in the future - making it natural. That way of thinking is logical, yet i am minimizing the event at the same time... i don't think i should do that for the sake of believing it is only natural; i keep an open mind to both sides.

1. Are ghosts scared of labs?

I have made my spiritual belief off my experiences, not the other way around. I have tried to make a platform that can explain my own experiences. It all fits if i look at myself as a possible "immortal intelligence" (source). I ask then, what are those implications? First: why i am here and don't know for sure that i am this source? The question is simple, if i knew, how long would i endure this human experience? I would just go back... so, the purpose is not to know. Second: Then why have experience? I feel my source is directing me through this life, and the only way it can do anything is through me. Scientifically: Maybe it's by moving my atoms or energy in a way to make me perceive something. Like, getting a feeling to turn left and avoiding an accident, or getting into one... i don't know my true purpose, my true self bc it is this source. Like a gamer behind the character in a game. Mario must follow a certain path before it gets to the princess. These are just illustrations, so don't take them literally.

My answer to this question is that some people just aren't suppose to know. If an atheist is a scientist and pushing forward bc the way they think, it would be a detriment for them to get a "spiritual experience" bc then they wouldn't be who they are. We all have sources (in my opinion) making us what we are suppose to be to this world... also, i can't tell you when this stuff happens. It is unpredictable. I ask why? If it follows my source belief, it is bc the source is also intelligent. Intelligence can stump predictability. The only way i think this source can do anything in this world is through us, yet i take into account everyone has this source. So you can block me from having an experience bc your source does not want you to have any... it is intelligent.

2 Just because I can't see a natural explanation, does that mean there isn't one?

I am with you on this 100%. Why do you think i asked my friend to stop the spin and then left... bc i still didn't believe. Most would have dropped it on the first spin, trust me, it was weird... but, i pushed forward to make it impossible. When the impossible happened, i was stumped. Maybe i should have pushed on. Maybe i should have recorded it... but none of that came to my mind. Maybe the source did it that way. The guy died... maybe his source wanted to show us in that moment, i am also powerful. I don't know... Maybe it was me spinning it, maybe it was a shift in gravity, ... i can go on naturally or supernaturally, but i will end with i don't know. My point is, why do we try so hard to ignore the supernatural elements? Even me. I tried hard to ignore it but it was like a slap in the face by the end lol.

I do always end on trying to think there is an explanation bc we live in a natural world with rules. I truly believe these rules have to be what they are to have our experience. Yet, in my spiritual belief... i make it work to this platform, or i see how it can. If my source is powerful enough, it should be able to do things through me. What i am getting at is, i feel there is both ways this can be explained. If all of our sources are intelligent, then they are as powerful as our own capacity. They will also make sure we are what we are to this world. I find this to be hard to prove scientifically, for how are you suppose to predict if intelligence is behind these events?

"why is it that all spirits have alzheimers?

I think i answered this before. The idea that we are suppose to be what we are to this world. If we were anything else, well... then that would be reality. Yet... i don't know my sources true purpose for coming here, yet i can speculate. This is where my belief gets subjective and a little chaotic, for it means we all have different spiritual purposes. Like, i can be here to see my family. I know in this life i like that... so, can that be one purpose. Can another be a wife, can another be an actor, a business man, lawyer... Then darkness sets bc this world allows it, to be a gangster, a murderer, an evil person. That is possible from what i see here... if you are looking at this world as an outside observer, this source, it is like a video game... what experience will i have? This proves to me the source is at a higher intelligence for being able to control what destiny it will play... it is possible if you look at it that way in my opinion.

I do despise those frauds who make money from other people while deluding them about talking to their dead loved ones.

I do too, and my main reason against religion. I have had these experiences, no lie... but, how are you suppose to know that? There are so many deluding it through their greed. The religious thinking their book is perfect without the poison of these people... that is laughable and quite sad. I truly believe some characters in religious text went through what they did, but i also know that the greedy took advantage of the story.

But, that is the purpose of this life... to live. We are all as powerful as what we think we are. Everyone has a different reason for entering this game. This would be hard to analyze bc it is pretty chaotic if everyone is a source of their own. They can come here from different world, from a different "paradise." It would be hard for me to say why others are playing this game, so i focus on the world around me. I truly believe, if anything supernatural is true, i am in control and accountable. It is a better way to live i feel.
imperialchimp
Posts: 252
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9/23/2016 5:06:33 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.

Why not both? How about evolution through magic?

Magic doesn't exist.

Can you actually say that?

Therefore, we got here by evolution.
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-

Don't waste your time trying to find truth...you pleb!
Willows
Posts: 2,084
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9/23/2016 5:12:36 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:31:47 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:18:19 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:13:40 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.
Magic doesn't exist.
Therefore, we got here by evolution.

Define magic?

Well, I don't mean illusions as performed by stage magicians - they definitely do exist, and are fun.

One reference from the dictionary is:

any extraordinary or mystical influence, charm, power, etc.

I tend to think of magic as anything claimed to produce a physical manifestation that doesn't have a cause rooted in natural, physical forces.

Okay good. I agree with both definitions. Magic, as illusions, do exist but are very natural. However, your "supernatural" definition. Well... to start i am agnostic atheist bc i do not know 100% anything and i am confident the answers are not found in "one" religion (organization). But... i do put spiritual in my beliefs as well bc you know what... i have had too many weird experiences that confuse me... things that can't be explained. I have written two of my strongest a lot here so sorry i am cutting and pasting... but i want your opinion on how i should be looking at this... bc i have no scientific explanation for many of what's happened to me:

A strong experience. I went to my friend's buddy's house. After some talking, ghost stuff came up. The guy told me he thinks he has something evil in his house, possibly out to get him. I doubted right away... i truly don't believe in this stuff bc i try to stay rational ... most people lie. But, he was serious, saying something had recently happened. I took off my necklace and told him to tell the "ghost" to spin it. He accepted right away. I told him to wait... i held my hand in a way to stabilize the necklace, which had a ring on it, so there was no spin. Then he proceeded, yelling at this "demon," calling it names and that it was a 'B' if it couldn't spin it and other profanities. It went from a slow spin to a violent spin to the right. I still didn't believe, so i told him to tell it to stop it, he yelled it, and it stopped. I said tell it to spin it to the left... it started violently spinning to the left. I dropped it. That was enough... a week later he dies.

Analysis: I was truly holding my hand as best i could to not spin it. I have tried this other times and what happened here can't be done again. It went from a big spin to the right, stopped, and left when commanded. The spin was so wide it felt if it was any more it would fall out of my hands... then it stopped, and did the same thing to the left.... I can't explain this.

My strongest experience. A short few years ago now, i started having re-occurring dreams of going to Vegas and looking for something i couldn't find. After about 3 or 4 of these dreams, my friends said lets go to Vegas in a bus. I am very introverted, i normally would have said no, but i was curious bc of the dreams so i went (Coincidence 1). After the first night of partying, i was getting ready to go to bed but got called to my friends room. Everyone crying when i got there, and found a friend in the bathroom throwing up blood every 3 to 4 minutes, looking pretty sick. Well, they called me bc i was sober and they were, well not... Cocaine, a drug i hate and don't do. I did E in a club earlier and was quite sober at the moment, having taken only a Klonopin (in normal amount) to help me sleep. I told them to call paramedics, the hotel ones came up and long story, said take him to the hospital after they saw him throw up. At this point, a feeling hit me (felt like an electric fuzzy feeling and simultaneously a thought "tell everyone to leave; you can heal him) (Coincidence 2). I doubted right away, but... told them to leave and they did. I sat there and watched him throw up 2 more times, not knowing what to do "no way the thought and feeling are anything," doubting, but walked up to him thinking if this doesn't work then i am going to the hospital (Coincidence 3). I touched his head, the "fuzzy" feeling i was getting literally felt like it drained from me, from my feet to the last of it leaving my hand on his forehead. Literally, as soon as the last of the fuzzy feeling left, simultaneously, he went from looking like death, to a smile and sigh of relief... F'ing getting comfortable in his covers...(Coincidence 4).

Analysis: Dang... you tell me. Even after the spin event which happened first... i found a way to disprove it in my head... "freak coincidence this stuffs not real" ... then this! I put the Coincidence markers bc that is like hitting the lotto 4 times. Everything happened exactly on point... and this experience has me thinking.

These are two of probably 40 +/- experiences i have had. What am i suppose to think?

Still having delusions I notice.
You should stop abusing your medication.
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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9/23/2016 5:14:32 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

Why? Are you scared you won't get to heaven?
Willows
Posts: 2,084
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9/23/2016 5:16:37 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

Here we go again with another take on the "prove God doesn't exist" argument.

I realise how hard it must be for theists, having no evidence to work with, "so let'e just twist things around a bit and throw that into the mix".
Skeptical1
Posts: 698
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9/23/2016 6:11:54 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 5:06:33 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.

Why not both? How about evolution through magic?

Magic doesn't exist.

Can you actually say that?

I just did.

If you mean can I justify saying it, my justification is that I'm not aware of any sound evidence to indicate it does.


Therefore, we got here by evolution.
Skeptical1
Posts: 698
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9/23/2016 6:13:16 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 6:11:54 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 5:06:33 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.

Why not both? How about evolution through magic?

Oops, I missed this bit. But if evolution explains it without magic, why throw magic into the mix?


Magic doesn't exist.

Can you actually say that?

I just did.

If you mean can I justify saying it, my justification is that I'm not aware of any sound evidence to indicate it does.


Therefore, we got here by evolution.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,237
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9/23/2016 6:51:58 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 6:13:16 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 6:11:54 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 5:06:33 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.

Why not both? How about evolution through magic?

Oops, I missed this bit. But if evolution explains it without magic, why throw magic into the mix?

Playing God's advocate; 24% of US adults believe in God guided evolution (http://www.pewforum.org...), so there's some persuasiveness to the idea. Generally speaking theists think their theology has explanatory power, and given that evolution does not provide an origin of life - and life naturally coming from non-life seems far fetched - God makes for a reasonable answer.
Skeptical1
Posts: 698
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9/23/2016 6:58:13 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 6:51:58 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 6:13:16 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 6:11:54 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 5:06:33 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.

Why not both? How about evolution through magic?

Oops, I missed this bit. But if evolution explains it without magic, why throw magic into the mix?

Playing God's advocate; 24% of US adults believe in God guided evolution (http://www.pewforum.org...), so there's some persuasiveness to the idea. Generally speaking theists think their theology has explanatory power, and given that evolution does not provide an origin of life - and life naturally coming from non-life seems far fetched - God makes for a reasonable answer.

I've never understood that. Abiogenesis is far-fetched, but the Bible creation story is perfectly believable? I've seen figures that nearly 50% of the US population believes the universe came into being in six days or less and is less than 6,000 years old. Go figure. And these are the people who beat everyone else to the moon.
imperialchimp
Posts: 252
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9/23/2016 7:30:44 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 6:11:54 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 5:06:33 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.

Why not both? How about evolution through magic?

Magic doesn't exist.

Can you actually say that?

I just did.

If you mean can I justify saying it, my justification is that I'm not aware of any sound evidence to indicate it does.

Just because there is no evidence doesn't mean it isn't true. I'll also tell you this: what you observe may not actually be objective.
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-

Don't waste your time trying to find truth...you pleb!
imperialchimp
Posts: 252
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9/23/2016 7:31:37 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 6:13:16 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 6:11:54 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 5:06:33 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.

Why not both? How about evolution through magic?

Oops, I missed this bit. But if evolution explains it without magic, why throw magic into the mix?

is it not possible?
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-

Don't waste your time trying to find truth...you pleb!
Skeptical1
Posts: 698
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9/23/2016 7:35:09 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 7:30:44 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/23/2016 6:11:54 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 5:06:33 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.

Why not both? How about evolution through magic?

Magic doesn't exist.

Can you actually say that?

I just did.

If you mean can I justify saying it, my justification is that I'm not aware of any sound evidence to indicate it does.

Just because there is no evidence doesn't mean it isn't true. I'll also tell you this: what you observe may not actually be objective.

That's possible. But the only sensible way in so far as I can see is not to believe in things I don't see any evidence for. Otherwise there are an infinite number of imaginary things I'd believe in. Objectivism is a difficult concept.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,237
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9/23/2016 7:53:58 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 6:58:13 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 6:51:58 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 6:13:16 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 6:11:54 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 5:06:33 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.

Why not both? How about evolution through magic?

Oops, I missed this bit. But if evolution explains it without magic, why throw magic into the mix?

Playing God's advocate; 24% of US adults believe in God guided evolution (http://www.pewforum.org...), so there's some persuasiveness to the idea. Generally speaking theists think their theology has explanatory power, and given that evolution does not provide an origin of life - and life naturally coming from non-life seems far fetched - God makes for a reasonable answer.

I've never understood that. Abiogenesis is far-fetched, but the Bible creation story is perfectly believable?

Well I suppose it depends on if they take the Bible literally or as a book of metaphors.

I've seen figures that nearly 50% of the US population believes the universe came into being in six days or less and is less than 6,000 years old.

Creationism doesn't necessarily rule out evolution, perhaps the young earth aspect does, but not the 6 days creation aspect.

Go figure. And these are the people who beat everyone else to the moon.

As noted in 1984, the art of double think requires people to believe 2+2=5 but also understand that when calculating rocket trajectories and engineering projects 2+2 can also equal 4.
Willows
Posts: 2,084
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9/23/2016 12:40:08 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 6:51:58 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 6:13:16 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 6:11:54 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 5:06:33 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.

Why not both? How about evolution through magic?

Oops, I missed this bit. But if evolution explains it without magic, why throw magic into the mix?

Playing God's advocate; 24% of US adults believe in God guided evolution (http://www.pewforum.org...), so there's some persuasiveness to the idea. Generally speaking theists think their theology has explanatory power, and given that evolution does not provide an origin of life - and life naturally coming from non-life seems far fetched - God makes for a reasonable answer.

Why should anyone be persuaded to adopt an idea just because a certain percentage of people believe it?

Evolution does provide an explanation for origin of life.

The fact that there is life means that non-life preceded it.

Just because you have discounted (illogically I might add) a theory it does not mean that there is one default answer (i.e. God).

I think you should have a good look at your ability to reason.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,237
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9/23/2016 6:03:57 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 12:40:08 PM, Willows wrote:
At 9/23/2016 6:51:58 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 6:13:16 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 6:11:54 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 5:06:33 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.

Why not both? How about evolution through magic?

Oops, I missed this bit. But if evolution explains it without magic, why throw magic into the mix?

Playing God's advocate; 24% of US adults believe in God guided evolution (http://www.pewforum.org...), so there's some persuasiveness to the idea. Generally speaking theists think their theology has explanatory power, and given that evolution does not provide an origin of life - and life naturally coming from non-life seems far fetched - God makes for a reasonable answer.

Why should anyone be persuaded to adopt an idea just because a certain percentage of people believe it?

Sigh, the appeal to number isn't 'hey they believe it you should too' its 'there's obviously something worth looking into if it's so persuasive'

Evolution does provide an explanation for origin of life.

Abiogenisis and evolution are 2 dff theories.

The fact that there is life means that non-life preceded it.

Besides miller ulrey what evidence suggests this?

Just because you have discounted (illogically I might add) a theory it does not mean that there is one default answer (i.e. God).

Given there are no verifiable examples of life coming from non-life it's not illogical to be skeptical of such a claim.

I think you should have a good look at your ability to reason.

I think you should take a good look at your ability to see the debate from the other side. I'm an atheist, yet even I understand there is a logic to their faith.
Outplayz
Posts: 1,274
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9/23/2016 6:12:14 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/23/2016 5:12:36 AM, Willows wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:31:47 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:18:19 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/23/2016 12:13:40 AM, Outplayz wrote:
At 9/22/2016 11:57:33 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 9/22/2016 6:03:25 PM, rnjs wrote:
I have been challenged before, to defend the Bible without quoting scripture. I would like to know if anyone can defend evolution without quoting science?

We got here either by magic or evolution.
Magic doesn't exist.
Therefore, we got here by evolution.

Define magic?

Well, I don't mean illusions as performed by stage magicians - they definitely do exist, and are fun.

One reference from the dictionary is:

any extraordinary or mystical influence, charm, power, etc.

I tend to think of magic as anything claimed to produce a physical manifestation that doesn't have a cause rooted in natural, physical forces.

Okay good. I agree with both definitions. Magic, as illusions, do exist but are very natural. However, your "supernatural" definition. Well... to start i am agnostic atheist bc i do not know 100% anything and i am confident the answers are not found in "one" religion (organization). But... i do put spiritual in my beliefs as well bc you know what... i have had too many weird experiences that confuse me... things that can't be explained. I have written two of my strongest a lot here so sorry i am cutting and pasting... but i want your opinion on how i should be looking at this... bc i have no scientific explanation for many of what's happened to me:

A strong experience. I went to my friend's buddy's house. After some talking, ghost stuff came up. The guy told me he thinks he has something evil in his house, possibly out to get him. I doubted right away... i truly don't believe in this stuff bc i try to stay rational ... most people lie. But, he was serious, saying something had recently happened. I took off my necklace and told him to tell the "ghost" to spin it. He accepted right away. I told him to wait... i held my hand in a way to stabilize the necklace, which had a ring on it, so there was no spin. Then he proceeded, yelling at this "demon," calling it names and that it was a 'B' if it couldn't spin it and other profanities. It went from a slow spin to a violent spin to the right. I still didn't believe, so i told him to tell it to stop it, he yelled it, and it stopped. I said tell it to spin it to the left... it started violently spinning to the left. I dropped it. That was enough... a week later he dies.

Analysis: I was truly holding my hand as best i could to not spin it. I have tried this other times and what happened here can't be done again. It went from a big spin to the right, stopped, and left when commanded. The spin was so wide it felt if it was any more it would fall out of my hands... then it stopped, and did the same thing to the left.... I can't explain this.

My strongest experience. A short few years ago now, i started having re-occurring dreams of going to Vegas and looking for something i couldn't find. After about 3 or 4 of these dreams, my friends said lets go to Vegas in a bus. I am very introverted, i normally would have said no, but i was curious bc of the dreams so i went (Coincidence 1). After the first night of partying, i was getting ready to go to bed but got called to my friends room. Everyone crying when i got there, and found a friend in the bathroom throwing up blood every 3 to 4 minutes, looking pretty sick. Well, they called me bc i was sober and they were, well not... Cocaine, a drug i hate and don't do. I did E in a club earlier and was quite sober at the moment, having taken only a Klonopin (in normal amount) to help me sleep. I told them to call paramedics, the hotel ones came up and long story, said take him to the hospital after they saw him throw up. At this point, a feeling hit me (felt like an electric fuzzy feeling and simultaneously a thought "tell everyone to leave; you can heal him) (Coincidence 2). I doubted right away, but... told them to leave and they did. I sat there and watched him throw up 2 more times, not knowing what to do "no way the thought and feeling are anything," doubting, but walked up to him thinking if this doesn't work then i am going to the hospital (Coincidence 3). I touched his head, the "fuzzy" feeling i was getting literally felt like it drained from me, from my feet to the last of it leaving my hand on his forehead. Literally, as soon as the last of the fuzzy feeling left, simultaneously, he went from looking like death, to a smile and sigh of relief... F'ing getting comfortable in his covers...(Coincidence 4).

Analysis: Dang... you tell me. Even after the spin event which happened first... i found a way to disprove it in my head... "freak coincidence this stuffs not real" ... then this! I put the Coincidence markers bc that is like hitting the lotto 4 times. Everything happened exactly on point... and this experience has me thinking.

These are two of probably 40 +/- experiences i have had. What am i suppose to think?

Still having delusions I notice.
You should stop abusing your medication.

Funny, i copy pasted this from our last talk =) Going the delusion angle is always a good way to prove these things... that or maybe i should start playing the lotto bc i am one lucky person... that or i am "the" god... That or i am "the" antichrist... That or i am "a" god... that or i am... sht, i need to take my meds... all my personalities are coming through! You triggered me Willz.