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Why so few real thinkers on this forum?

Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?
Smithereens
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9/26/2016 1:58:01 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
Speaking from a psychology perspective, this is actually what humans are like naturally, and it's not something to condemn.

If you want a different type of discourse, go to the philosophy forum. It's similar to this one except completely different.
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illegalcombat
Posts: 632
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9/26/2016 2:15:20 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

Allow me to tell you a story from star trek. In it data (a robot) is inquiring as to why humans engage in combat for sport, even though they don't have to.

It is pointed out to data something like, well it's easy to think your the best fighter in the world when you just tell yourself that and haven't being in any fights.

Data concludes so one of the reasons you engage in these fights is to guard against self deception.

You have no debates, NONE, yet you see yourself as some one who is in the elite category when it comes to thinking ? above the rabble of the unwashed masses ?

Real easy to fool yourself that your the best fighter when you haven't being in any fights eh ?

"so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?"

Yes, lets creates bubbles, where people just tell each other how right they are, how wrong everyone else is, and never really get challenged on their beliefs/reasoning etc.

What could possibly go wrong with that ?
janesix
Posts: 3,466
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9/26/2016 2:20:14 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

It's normal human behavior to not think too deeply.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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9/26/2016 2:25:25 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 2:20:14 AM, janesix wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

It's normal human behavior to not think too deeply.

You mean it's MODERN human behavior not to think too deeply, and to react emotionally because of social media. Everyone talks and few listen. In ancient Athens people would gather in the town squares and deeply discuss all the issues of the day, and I feel certain that many a shepherd or cowboy spent a lot of all that quiet time in deep thought.
Idealist
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9/26/2016 4:04:16 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:58:01 AM, Smithereens wrote:
Speaking from a psychology perspective, this is actually what humans are like naturally, and it's not something to condemn.

If you want a different type of discourse, go to the philosophy forum. It's similar to this one except completely different.

A reasonable suggestion, but what about when a person wishes to discuss the various religious philosophies specifically? Suppose I have a hundred things which cause me to lean toward a created world and a thousand that leans me away. Why is it always so impossible to find anyone on this forum who is willing to rationally examine these concerns with? It's more like a knife-fight than any kind of debate.
Idealist
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9/26/2016 4:10:03 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 2:15:20 AM, illegalcombat wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

Allow me to tell you a story from star trek. In it data (a robot) is inquiring as to why humans engage in combat for sport, even though they don't have to.

It is pointed out to data something like, well it's easy to think your the best fighter in the world when you just tell yourself that and haven't being in any fights.

Data concludes so one of the reasons you engage in these fights is to guard against self deception.

You have no debates, NONE, yet you see yourself as some one who is in the elite category when it comes to thinking ? above the rabble of the unwashed masses ?

Real easy to fool yourself that your the best fighter when you haven't being in any fights eh ?

"so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?"

Yes, lets creates bubbles, where people just tell each other how right they are, how wrong everyone else is, and never really get challenged on their beliefs/reasoning etc.

What could possibly go wrong with that ?

So you are saying that this forum is more a "cock-fight" than an intellectual symposium? That I'm only supposed to come here if I'm looking to prove my mensch, but not to learn the nuances of anything dealing with a rational back-and-forth? Again, doesn't the name of the forum seem to misrepresent what it offers?
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/26/2016 4:11:38 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 4:04:16 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:58:01 AM, Smithereens wrote:
Speaking from a psychology perspective, this is actually what humans are like naturally, and it's not something to condemn.

If you want a different type of discourse, go to the philosophy forum. It's similar to this one except completely different.

A reasonable suggestion, but what about when a person wishes to discuss the various religious philosophies specifically? Suppose I have a hundred things which cause me to lean toward a created world and a thousand that leans me away. Why is it always so impossible to find anyone on this forum who is willing to rationally examine these concerns with? It's more like a knife-fight than any kind of debate.

Because I'm right, damnit. And I have the overwhelming proof... C'mon, you know that!

Or maybe I don't and prefer a conversation vs a debate about that which the human brain will never fully grasp: why...
dee-em
Posts: 6,476
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9/26/2016 4:17:40 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

Yes, by all means. Let's have segregation because that has always worked in the past.

Poor little theists. They just love their persecution complexes and they hate having their beliefs subjected to critical thought. Perish the thought!
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
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9/26/2016 4:22:30 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 4:04:16 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:58:01 AM, Smithereens wrote:
Speaking from a psychology perspective, this is actually what humans are like naturally, and it's not something to condemn.

If you want a different type of discourse, go to the philosophy forum. It's similar to this one except completely different.

A reasonable suggestion, but what about when a person wishes to discuss the various religious philosophies specifically? Suppose I have a hundred things which cause me to lean toward a created world and a thousand that leans me away. Why is it always so impossible to find anyone on this forum who is willing to rationally examine these concerns with? It's more like a knife-fight than any kind of debate.

That's capitalism. If there's no demand for it, why are you so surprised that there's no supply either?
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Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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9/26/2016 4:43:25 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 4:11:38 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 4:04:16 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:58:01 AM, Smithereens wrote:
Speaking from a psychology perspective, this is actually what humans are like naturally, and it's not something to condemn.

If you want a different type of discourse, go to the philosophy forum. It's similar to this one except completely different.

A reasonable suggestion, but what about when a person wishes to discuss the various religious philosophies specifically? Suppose I have a hundred things which cause me to lean toward a created world and a thousand that leans me away. Why is it always so impossible to find anyone on this forum who is willing to rationally examine these concerns with? It's more like a knife-fight than any kind of debate.

Because I'm right, damnit. And I have the overwhelming proof... C'mon, you know that!

Or maybe I don't and prefer a conversation vs a debate about that which the human brain will never fully grasp: why...

Okay, okay ... hard to dispute all that. :-/
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/26/2016 4:49:16 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 4:43:25 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 9/26/2016 4:11:38 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 9/26/2016 4:04:16 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:58:01 AM, Smithereens wrote:
Speaking from a psychology perspective, this is actually what humans are like naturally, and it's not something to condemn.

If you want a different type of discourse, go to the philosophy forum. It's similar to this one except completely different.

A reasonable suggestion, but what about when a person wishes to discuss the various religious philosophies specifically? Suppose I have a hundred things which cause me to lean toward a created world and a thousand that leans me away. Why is it always so impossible to find anyone on this forum who is willing to rationally examine these concerns with? It's more like a knife-fight than any kind of debate.

Because I'm right, damnit. And I have the overwhelming proof... C'mon, you know that!

Or maybe I don't and prefer a conversation vs a debate about that which the human brain will never fully grasp: why...

Okay, okay ... hard to dispute all that. :-/

Want to win every debate you're ever in? Make any claim followed by 'c'mon you know that!'
Idealist
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9/26/2016 4:54:59 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 4:17:40 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

Yes, by all means. Let's have segregation because that has always worked in the past.

Poor little theists. They just love their persecution complexes and they hate having their beliefs subjected to critical thought. Perish the thought!

The "idea" of separate forums was me trying to make a point.

Those "poor little theists" with "persecution complexes" were for thousands of years preceded by poor little non-theists subject to very real physical persecutions, and that wasn't right, either. Actually some theists, some atheists, and some undecideds DO like having a reasonable, respectful and rational debate, yet can rarely if ever find one. I can't count the times I've been called an atheist, a closet Christian or an apologist simply because I didn't agree with every word the other person said, which is the whole point of this thread. Listening to typical conversations on here can be like watching Congress on CNN.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,127
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9/26/2016 4:56:50 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

Many arguments (between believers and non-believers) can be traced back to differing views of epistemology. If you think that knowledge is informed by observation then you typically don't accept the existence of anything that cant be observed, measured, or detected. If you think, knowledge is informed by something other than than that, then you are much more likely to accept 'things unseen', unmeasured, and undetectable.

Of course, I favor the first option and I've come to consider these arguments meaningless since a being that cannot be detected cannot be defined. If this "god" being cannot be defined, then what exactly is the argument about? At least, that's my $.02.

For what its worth, I don't attack spirituality. I consider it to be a real (I might be inclined to say I have experienced it), but I don't associate it with an invisible being. So, may the spirituality be with you, my brother. ;-)
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
desmac
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9/26/2016 6:37:45 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 2:25:25 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 9/26/2016 2:20:14 AM, janesix wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

It's normal human behavior to not think too deeply.

You mean it's MODERN human behavior not to think too deeply, and to react emotionally because of social media. Everyone talks and few listen. In ancient Athens people would gather in the town squares and deeply discuss all the issues of the day, and I feel certain that many a shepherd or cowboy spent a lot of all that quiet time in deep thought.

In ancient Athens the citizenry kept slaves to do the hard and dirty work. You can be assured that the slaves weren't gathering in the market squares to discuss the issues of the day.
dee-em
Posts: 6,476
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9/26/2016 9:46:55 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 4:54:59 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 9/26/2016 4:17:40 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

Yes, by all means. Let's have segregation because that has always worked in the past.

Poor little theists. They just love their persecution complexes and they hate having their beliefs subjected to critical thought. Perish the thought!

The "idea" of separate forums was me trying to make a point.

Oh, I see. You didn't mean it. What was your point then?

Those "poor little theists" with "persecution complexes" were for thousands of years preceded by poor little non-theists subject to very real physical persecutions, and that wasn't right, either.

Whatever are you referring to and how does it possibly relate to what I said about persecution complexes?

Actually some theists, some atheists, and some undecideds DO like having a reasonable, respectful and rational debate, yet can rarely if ever find one. I can't count the times I've been called an atheist, a closet Christian or an apologist simply because I didn't agree with every word the other person said, which is the whole point of this thread. Listening to typical conversations on here can be like watching Congress on CNN.

If you want a model for how to operate a respectful thread, have a look at the one airmax created. It isn't hard. All you have to do is set the tone and be patient and sincere at all times. It can be done. Obvious trolls can be ignored. It won't immunize you from criticism though. Your problem is that you make outrageous statements (such as the one I picked up on in this thread) and then you act surprised and hurt when someone calls you out. What do you expect, that your views are unassailable?

If you really do want a no-conflict forum there are plenty of other sites around which exclude atheists. This site is named debate.org, which should tell you that the focus is on a robust debate of ideas. That usually means that when ideas clash, there is some conflict. It is inevitable. You can hardly complain about it when the site is geared to this very purpose.
Willows
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9/26/2016 11:15:08 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 2:15:20 AM, illegalcombat wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

Allow me to tell you a story from star trek. In it data (a robot) is inquiring as to why humans engage in combat for sport, even though they don't have to.

It is pointed out to data something like, well it's easy to think your the best fighter in the world when you just tell yourself that and haven't being in any fights.

Data concludes so one of the reasons you engage in these fights is to guard against self deception.

You have no debates, NONE, yet you see yourself as some one who is in the elite category when it comes to thinking ? above the rabble of the unwashed masses ?

Real easy to fool yourself that your the best fighter when you haven't being in any fights eh ?

"so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?"

Yes, lets creates bubbles, where people just tell each other how right they are, how wrong everyone else is, and never really get challenged on their beliefs/reasoning etc.

What could possibly go wrong with that ?

That already happens. In fact, there are special buildings with funny pointy roofs where this la de da behaviour often occurs.
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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9/26/2016 12:55:24 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
Most people have done nothing throughout their lives to gain control of their own egos. So they still react to life almost entirely as their ego dictates. They 'auto-defend' the most absurd points of view, using the most dishonest intellectual means, because their egos will not allow them to accept correction of any kind from anyone for any reason.

There is little we can do for these folks as they must recognize their own condition and decide to take action within themselves to limit the power their egos have over them.

We each either take responsibility for who and what we are, as human beings, or we don't. And most of us don't.
IM-True
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9/26/2016 3:45:32 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers? : :

Fear is the number one reason that most theists ascribe to a certain group's belief system. Fear keeps them from engaging in other thoughts used by people outside of their group. The only one who can change their beliefs is God according to his will.
ANON_TacTiX
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9/27/2016 4:56:33 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?
Then there would be no debate. Just two separate groups of people that all agree and never challenge each other. I'd rather deal with all of the trolls and close minded people than have no religious debate at all. I love debating religion.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
DanneJeRusse
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9/27/2016 2:39:09 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 12:55:24 PM, PureX wrote:
Most people have done nothing throughout their lives to gain control of their own egos. So they still react to life almost entirely as their ego dictates. They 'auto-defend' the most absurd points of view, using the most dishonest intellectual means, because their egos will not allow them to accept correction of any kind from anyone for any reason.

There is little we can do for these folks as they must recognize their own condition and decide to take action within themselves to limit the power their egos have over them.

We each either take responsibility for who and what we are, as human beings, or we don't. And most of us don't.

So, how are we supposed to handle those religious believers?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
PureX
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9/27/2016 6:26:46 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/27/2016 2:39:09 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:55:24 PM, PureX wrote:
Most people have done nothing throughout their lives to gain control of their own egos. So they still react to life almost entirely as their ego dictates. They 'auto-defend' the most absurd points of view, using the most dishonest intellectual means, because their egos will not allow them to accept correction of any kind from anyone for any reason.

There is little we can do for these folks as they must recognize their own condition and decide to take action within themselves to limit the power their egos have over them.

We each either take responsibility for who and what we are, as human beings, or we don't. And most of us don't.

So, how are we supposed to handle those religious believers?

We cannot convince anyone of anything that they are not willing to be convinced of. And that's OK so long as our laws protect us from each other's behavioral encroachment. If we can't convince a thief it's wrong to steal, we can at least make sure that theft remains illegal.

I think we should stop wasting time trying to change people's minds about "God" and expend that energy on maintaining the legal separation between church and state.
DanneJeRusse
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9/27/2016 6:36:17 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/27/2016 6:26:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 9/27/2016 2:39:09 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:55:24 PM, PureX wrote:
Most people have done nothing throughout their lives to gain control of their own egos. So they still react to life almost entirely as their ego dictates. They 'auto-defend' the most absurd points of view, using the most dishonest intellectual means, because their egos will not allow them to accept correction of any kind from anyone for any reason.

There is little we can do for these folks as they must recognize their own condition and decide to take action within themselves to limit the power their egos have over them.

We each either take responsibility for who and what we are, as human beings, or we don't. And most of us don't.

So, how are we supposed to handle those religious believers?

We cannot convince anyone of anything that they are not willing to be convinced of. And that's OK so long as our laws protect us from each other's behavioral encroachment. If we can't convince a thief it's wrong to steal, we can at least make sure that theft remains illegal.

Criminals know very well that it's wrong to steal and those who don't are mentally disturbed, hence they require professional help.

I think we should stop wasting time trying to change people's minds about "God" and expend that energy on maintaining the legal separation between church and state.

People are free to believe whatever they want as long as they keep it behind closed doors where it belongs, religious believers need to understand this and act accordingly. Problem solved.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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9/27/2016 6:50:50 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/27/2016 6:36:17 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/27/2016 6:26:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 9/27/2016 2:39:09 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:55:24 PM, PureX wrote:
Most people have done nothing throughout their lives to gain control of their own egos. So they still react to life almost entirely as their ego dictates. They 'auto-defend' the most absurd points of view, using the most dishonest intellectual means, because their egos will not allow them to accept correction of any kind from anyone for any reason.

There is little we can do for these folks as they must recognize their own condition and decide to take action within themselves to limit the power their egos have over them.

We each either take responsibility for who and what we are, as human beings, or we don't. And most of us don't.

So, how are we supposed to handle those religious believers?

We cannot convince anyone of anything that they are not willing to be convinced of. And that's OK so long as our laws protect us from each other's behavioral encroachment. If we can't convince a thief it's wrong to steal, we can at least make sure that theft remains illegal.

Criminals know very well that it's wrong to steal and those who don't are mentally disturbed, hence they require professional help.

I think we should stop wasting time trying to change people's minds about "God" and expend that energy on maintaining the legal separation between church and state.

People are free to believe whatever they want as long as they keep it behind closed doors where it belongs, religious believers need to understand this and act accordingly. Problem solved.

We don't have to keep religion "behind closed doors" (though I understand your point). But we do have to respect each other's rights and boundaries both individually and collectively. And it seems that there is a certain percentage of religionists among us that just can't seem to grasp that idea. Which is why we need to set and maintain laws that will enforce those rights and boundaries.

None of us are bound by the mandates of anyone else's God. And our civil laws must reflect and protect this basic freedom.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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9/27/2016 7:00:48 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/27/2016 6:50:50 PM, PureX wrote:
At 9/27/2016 6:36:17 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/27/2016 6:26:46 PM, PureX wrote:
At 9/27/2016 2:39:09 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/26/2016 12:55:24 PM, PureX wrote:
Most people have done nothing throughout their lives to gain control of their own egos. So they still react to life almost entirely as their ego dictates. They 'auto-defend' the most absurd points of view, using the most dishonest intellectual means, because their egos will not allow them to accept correction of any kind from anyone for any reason.

There is little we can do for these folks as they must recognize their own condition and decide to take action within themselves to limit the power their egos have over them.

We each either take responsibility for who and what we are, as human beings, or we don't. And most of us don't.

So, how are we supposed to handle those religious believers?

We cannot convince anyone of anything that they are not willing to be convinced of. And that's OK so long as our laws protect us from each other's behavioral encroachment. If we can't convince a thief it's wrong to steal, we can at least make sure that theft remains illegal.

Criminals know very well that it's wrong to steal and those who don't are mentally disturbed, hence they require professional help.

I think we should stop wasting time trying to change people's minds about "God" and expend that energy on maintaining the legal separation between church and state.

People are free to believe whatever they want as long as they keep it behind closed doors where it belongs, religious believers need to understand this and act accordingly. Problem solved.

We don't have to keep religion "behind closed doors"

Then, the problems will never get solved, they will continue as long as religion is out in the public.

(though I understand your point). But we do have to respect each other's rights and boundaries both individually and collectively.

Religions don't respect my rights.

And it seems that there is a certain percentage of religionists among us that just can't seem to grasp that idea. Which is why we need to set and maintain laws that will enforce those rights and boundaries.

Or, just keep religions behind closed doors where they belong so we don't need to make laws.

None of us are bound by the mandates of anyone else's God. And our civil laws must reflect and protect this basic freedom.

It does protect our basic freedoms as long as those freedoms are not violated by someones religion.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Hiu
Posts: 1,015
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9/27/2016 7:54:19 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 2:25:25 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 9/26/2016 2:20:14 AM, janesix wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

It's normal human behavior to not think too deeply.

You mean it's MODERN human behavior not to think too deeply, and to react emotionally because of social media. Everyone talks and few listen. In ancient Athens people would gather in the town squares and deeply discuss all the issues of the day, and I feel certain that many a shepherd or cowboy spent a lot of all that quiet time in deep thought.

Idealist I agree with you. I'm a thinker myself which is why I want to engage with others in deep conversation.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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9/28/2016 3:02:54 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

I don't come here to preach my beliefs. I come here to see where my holes are in my beliefs so I can adjust or strengthen my beliefs. I like to see the best arguments from all sides.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,668
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9/28/2016 4:06:11 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content.

Religious belief is a lot different than other issues because so much of one's identity and values are founded on them. Since the human mind is naturally adverse to change, any challenge or threat to core religious beliefs also apply to any dependent beliefs. This can trigger significant Cognitive Dissonance (http://www.simplypsychology.org...) and the resulting means of dissonance reduction is almost never to alter the challenged belief(s). This is not symmetrical with atheists, but it doesn't mean it can't play some role in their outlook. But, not everyone is adverse to considering opposing ideas - I've seen both atheist and theist admit that they were wrong, albeit rarely.

If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it.

By "attack" do you mean demand supporting evidence? The only "attacks" I've really seen follow a refusal to provide such evidence to any level of satisfaction but to those who already believe it.

Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all.

I find the demand for supportive evidence for a strong claim to be reasonable. Logic is a separate matter, though. I know you're likely being hyperbolic, but I wouldn't agree with this statement.

Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

Echo chambers are not conducive to intellectual development. Every assertion and belief should be criticized, regardless of its nature or origin. While there is a good deal of unconstructive discussion, here, there's still more than there would be if they were separated.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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9/28/2016 4:28:34 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

I think you are wrong. The members on tbe religious forum are passionate about their beliefs and vigorously try to defend it. It is hard to be neutral when so much depends of being right. I am a champion of Christians and Muslims and I advocate better treatment of monkeys who might be related to the ancestors of our atheist Darwin believers.

I am more tolerant because I am a Vedantist raised in the Vedantic tradition a Hindu by birth. I was trained in the reading of esoteric scriptures, Christian Theology and Islamic fundamentalism. I am a student of philosophy and the behavioural sciences, a spiritual healer and currently employed in the Information Technology field developing AI programs.
As you can see I have very diverse interests and on DDO alone I am a Christian championed and a champion of Muslims. I am the most spiritual member on DDO and welcome all to embrace the abundance of my Aura.

All links can be referenced.

Most Spiritual discusses Spirituality
http://www.debate.org...

Why Muslims need a champion here.
http://www.debate.org...

Harikrish for Christian Champion
http://www.debate.org...
lotsoffun
Posts: 1,609
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9/29/2016 2:54:19 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/26/2016 2:25:25 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 9/26/2016 2:20:14 AM, janesix wrote:
At 9/26/2016 1:55:47 AM, Idealist wrote:
I've been dropping-by DDO for several years now when the mood hits, and one thing I have constantly observed on the religion forum is that everyone already seems to have their minds made-up. I see very little give-and-take, only increasingly sophisticated and emotional ways to attack opposing views (along with a large amount of trolling) no matter what their content. If an atheist hears anything that hints of spirituality then they feel they must attack it. If a "believer" sees anything which questions what they feel in their heart then they must defend it. Logic and reason seem to play no part in it all. Maybe it should be renamed the "Religious Conflict" forum? Almost everyone here seems to be an extremist, so why not have an atheist forum for the atheists and a religious one for believers?

It's normal human behavior to not think too deeply.

You mean it's MODERN human behavior not to think too deeply, and to react emotionally because of social media. Everyone talks and few listen. In ancient Athens people would gather in the town squares and deeply discuss all the issues of the day, and I feel certain that many a shepherd or cowboy spent a lot of all that quiet time in deep thought.

You would be a pariah on most university campuses today.