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rnjs
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9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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9/28/2016 3:46:41 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

You mean, like when you're dead and your body starts to decay, then they bury or cremate you? That evidence?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
graceofgod
Posts: 5,095
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9/28/2016 4:04:59 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

the body we have now decays but the spirit goes to God...
Chaosism
Posts: 2,667
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9/28/2016 4:17:03 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

There's no evidence to adequately prove that our identity or consciousness, which has not been shown to be independently existent of the physical brain (quite the opposite, actually), so the assertion that it does can be rightly dismissed.

From a psychological standpoint, human beings are prone to accepting beliefs that are more understandable and intuitive, so since it's so easy to imagine our existence independent of our physical bodies and impossible to envision a perspective from non-existence, humans are simply more likely to lean towards belief in such a continued existence, regardless of any actual reasoning.

Do you believe that we (assuming a coherent notion of identity) continue existing following our biological death? What reasons do you have for accepting this belief?
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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9/28/2016 4:35:01 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 4:04:59 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

the body we have now decays but the spirit goes to God...

What spirit, what god? Proof of either or both, please.
rnjs
Posts: 380
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9/28/2016 5:06:43 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 3:46:41 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

You mean, like when you're dead and your body starts to decay, then they bury or cremate you? That evidence

That applies to our bodies, but is there actual evidence that there is nothing more such as our soul living on.
rnjs
Posts: 380
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9/28/2016 5:14:48 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 4:17:03 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

There's no evidence to adequately prove that our identity or consciousness, which has not been shown to be independently existent of the physical brain (quite the opposite, actually), so the assertion that it does can be rightly dismissed.

So, lack of evidence is evidence of lack?

From a psychological standpoint, human beings are prone to accepting beliefs that are more understandable and intuitive, so since it's so easy to imagine our existence independent of our physical bodies and impossible to envision a perspective from non-existence, humans are simply more likely to lean towards belief in such a continued existence, regardless of any actual reasoning.

Does that apply to everyone?

Do you believe that we (assuming a coherent notion of identity) continue existing following our biological death? What reasons do you have for accepting this belief?

Scientists say that the only reason they can find why humans can't live forever is exposure to the suns radiation which causes many maladies, so I don't find eternal life to be far fetched or unrealistic.
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/28/2016 5:51:27 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
When I die the Hale Bopp Mother Ship will collect my subconsciousness and add me to the collective where we will commence to assimilate knowledge across the universe.

Prove me wrong.
Silly_Billy
Posts: 644
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9/28/2016 6:06:43 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

Actually... if we are all indeed nothing more but the sums of our chemical processes, than it stands to reason that our consciousness is really nothing exceptional at all and even though we will die, it does seem likely (in an infinite universe that collapses and rebirths again and again for an infinite number of times) that we will sooner or later end up at a point where the same consciousness will be formed again.
Chaosism
Posts: 2,667
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9/28/2016 6:15:29 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 5:14:48 PM, rnjs wrote:
At 9/28/2016 4:17:03 PM, Chaosism wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

There's no evidence to adequately prove that our identity or consciousness, which has not been shown to be independently existent of the physical brain (quite the opposite, actually), so the assertion that it does can be rightly dismissed.

So, lack of evidence is evidence of lack?

Since from what we can tell, consciousness, personality, memory, and all aspects of what we view as a person are apparently determined by the functions of the brain, it's more reasonable to conclude that these dependent properties cease to exist when the brain ceases to function. Of course, contrary evidence could always change this.

From a psychological standpoint, human beings are prone to accepting beliefs that are more understandable and intuitive, so since it's so easy to imagine our existence independent of our physical bodies and impossible to envision a perspective from non-existence, humans are simply more likely to lean towards belief in such a continued existence, regardless of any actual reasoning.

Does that apply to everyone?

Recognized psychological phenomena represent strong human tendencies, in general, and don't necessarily apply to all individuals or to the same degree among individuals. I can't say for certain how prevalent this one is, but it ties into the Need for Cognitive Closure and Magical Thinking, too, and definitely explains why Substance Dualism is an attractive concept.

Do you believe that we (assuming a coherent notion of identity) continue existing following our biological death? What reasons do you have for accepting this belief?

Scientists say that the only reason they can find why humans can't live forever is exposure to the suns radiation which causes many maladies, so I don't find eternal life to be far fetched or unrealistic.

While it's an interesting topic, this is an entirely different topic than what's addressed in the OP or my question. Both presume the event of biological death.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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9/28/2016 6:35:54 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 5:06:43 PM, rnjs wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:46:41 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

You mean, like when you're dead and your body starts to decay, then they bury or cremate you? That evidence

That applies to our bodies, but is there actual evidence that there is nothing more such as our soul living on.

Sorry, but no such thing as souls have ever been shown to exist.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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9/28/2016 6:38:40 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 4:04:59 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

the body we have now decays but the spirit goes to God...

And the spirit is what exactly?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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9/28/2016 6:44:57 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 3:46:41 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

You mean, like when you're dead and your body starts to decay, then they bury or cremate you? That evidence?

But the body you have now is not the same body you had as a baby or in your childhood or even seven years ago, so just because the body decays is not a good argument to say that a life ceases to exist.

And here my shift change has arrived.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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9/28/2016 6:54:54 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 6:44:57 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:46:41 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

You mean, like when you're dead and your body starts to decay, then they bury or cremate you? That evidence?

But the body you have now is not the same body you had as a baby or in your childhood or even seven years ago,

How does that work?

so just because the body decays is not a good argument to say that a life ceases to exist.

It is when the body and its life are all that is shown to exist.

And here my shift change has arrived.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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9/28/2016 7:10:45 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

In order for an afterlife to exist either:
1) The "self" must continue to exist within this universe
2) The "self" must continue to exist outside of this universe

For 1 to happen dualism must be true
For 2 to happen tensed facts must exist

The B-Theory of Time refutes both ideas, and that principal us supported by modern physics.

I can expand on this if you like.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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9/28/2016 7:30:33 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 4:04:59 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

the body we have now decays but the spirit goes to God...

I don't respond with this very often but:

LOL
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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9/28/2016 8:33:22 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

Not knowing what happens when you or anyone dies is a great platform for starting a religion. Offer afterlife accommodation.
Silly_Billy
Posts: 644
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9/28/2016 8:42:47 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 7:10:45 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

In order for an afterlife to exist either:
1) The "self" must continue to exist within this universe
2) The "self" must continue to exist outside of this universe

For 1 to happen dualism must be true
For 2 to happen tensed facts must exist

The B-Theory of Time refutes both ideas, and that principal us supported by modern physics.

I can expand on this if you like.

Please do. I am quite interested to learn why a "self" would not be able to continue existing.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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9/28/2016 9:16:25 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 8:42:47 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/28/2016 7:10:45 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

In order for an afterlife to exist either:
1) The "self" must continue to exist within this universe
2) The "self" must continue to exist outside of this universe

For 1 to happen dualism must be true
For 2 to happen tensed facts must exist

The B-Theory of Time refutes both ideas, and that principal us supported by modern physics.

I can expand on this if you like.

Please do. I am quite interested to learn why a "self" would not be able to continue existing.

If the universe is the continued existence of oneself in the same universe, that requires for there to be a non-physical part of people that is the "self", which requires dualism to be true.

The fact that we experience a flow of time means that either the A-Theory of Time is true OR that the B/C-Theory of Time + Physicalism are true.

If the afterlife is the continued existence of oneself outside of the universe, then life must have an objective "end", and there must, therefore, be an objective "after" to ones life. This requires for tensed facts to objectively exist, and thus for the A-Theory of Time to be correct (for the B/C-Theory of Time is a tenseless model).

So, something noticeable at this point is that in order for the afterlife to exist, the A-Theory of Time must be true. If the B/C-Theory of Time is true then there cannot logically be an afterlife.

Now, Relativity suggests that the B-Theory of Time is true (as time is a variable and not a constant), retrocausality in quantum mechanics suggests eternalism is true which, in turn, suggests the B-Theory of Time (through McTaggart's Paradox).

And so, sciences helps suggest that the B-Theory of Time is correct, which, in turn, refutes the existence of an afterlife.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Skeptical1
Posts: 683
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9/28/2016 9:38:15 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 9:16:25 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 8:42:47 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/28/2016 7:10:45 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

In order for an afterlife to exist either:
1) The "self" must continue to exist within this universe
2) The "self" must continue to exist outside of this universe

For 1 to happen dualism must be true
For 2 to happen tensed facts must exist

The B-Theory of Time refutes both ideas, and that principal us supported by modern physics.

I can expand on this if you like.

Please do. I am quite interested to learn why a "self" would not be able to continue existing.

If the universe is the continued existence of oneself in the same universe, that requires for there to be a non-physical part of people that is the "self", which requires dualism to be true.

The fact that we experience a flow of time means that either the A-Theory of Time is true OR that the B/C-Theory of Time + Physicalism are true.

If the afterlife is the continued existence of oneself outside of the universe, then life must have an objective "end", and there must, therefore, be an objective "after" to ones life. This requires for tensed facts to objectively exist, and thus for the A-Theory of Time to be correct (for the B/C-Theory of Time is a tenseless model).

So, something noticeable at this point is that in order for the afterlife to exist, the A-Theory of Time must be true. If the B/C-Theory of Time is true then there cannot logically be an afterlife.

Now, Relativity suggests that the B-Theory of Time is true (as time is a variable and not a constant), retrocausality in quantum mechanics suggests eternalism is true which, in turn, suggests the B-Theory of Time (through McTaggart's Paradox).

And so, sciences helps suggest that the B-Theory of Time is correct, which, in turn, refutes the existence of an afterlife.

As numerous people here have pointed out, assuming something to be on zero evidence is a rather odd approach to determining reality. We have evidence that on death, the organ which allows us to think ceases to function. Also, the atoms that form our bodies return into the environment from whence they came. So how is it we think we somehow survive this?

Do you own a dog or cat? Goldfish? Pet salamander? Do you believe they go on existing as some other version of themselves after they die? What's special about our one species that would allow you to believe we do?
Silly_Billy
Posts: 644
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9/28/2016 9:49:44 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 9:16:25 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 8:42:47 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/28/2016 7:10:45 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

In order for an afterlife to exist either:
1) The "self" must continue to exist within this universe
2) The "self" must continue to exist outside of this universe

For 1 to happen dualism must be true
For 2 to happen tensed facts must exist

The B-Theory of Time refutes both ideas, and that principal us supported by modern physics.

I can expand on this if you like.

Please do. I am quite interested to learn why a "self" would not be able to continue existing.

If the universe is the continued existence of oneself in the same universe, that requires for there to be a non-physical part of people that is the "self", which requires dualism to be true.

The fact that we experience a flow of time means that either the A-Theory of Time is true OR that the B/C-Theory of Time + Physicalism are true.

If the afterlife is the continued existence of oneself outside of the universe, then life must have an objective "end", and there must, therefore, be an objective "after" to ones life. This requires for tensed facts to objectively exist, and thus for the A-Theory of Time to be correct (for the B/C-Theory of Time is a tenseless model).

So, something noticeable at this point is that in order for the afterlife to exist, the A-Theory of Time must be true. If the B/C-Theory of Time is true then there cannot logically be an afterlife.

Now, Relativity suggests that the B-Theory of Time is true (as time is a variable and not a constant), retrocausality in quantum mechanics suggests eternalism is true which, in turn, suggests the B-Theory of Time (through McTaggart's Paradox).

And so, sciences helps suggest that the B-Theory of Time is correct, which, in turn, refutes the existence of an afterlife.

I put some thought into this, personally I am inclined to believe the B-Theory of Time however, I am also inclined to believe that the "self" does continue after death which, as you may imagine, put me with a bit of a paradox.

The way I see it, even though the "self" may continue after death outside "our" universe, this does not necessarily mean that it has to exist outside "a" universe. As such, it is possible for the B/C-Theory of Time to be true while Physicalism may not not true as the "self" could be moving from one linear existence to another linear existence even though the destination would lie outside our universe.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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9/28/2016 10:53:20 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 9:49:44 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:16:25 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 8:42:47 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/28/2016 7:10:45 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

In order for an afterlife to exist either:
1) The "self" must continue to exist within this universe
2) The "self" must continue to exist outside of this universe

For 1 to happen dualism must be true
For 2 to happen tensed facts must exist

The B-Theory of Time refutes both ideas, and that principal us supported by modern physics.

I can expand on this if you like.

Please do. I am quite interested to learn why a "self" would not be able to continue existing.

If the universe is the continued existence of oneself in the same universe, that requires for there to be a non-physical part of people that is the "self", which requires dualism to be true.

The fact that we experience a flow of time means that either the A-Theory of Time is true OR that the B/C-Theory of Time + Physicalism are true.

If the afterlife is the continued existence of oneself outside of the universe, then life must have an objective "end", and there must, therefore, be an objective "after" to ones life. This requires for tensed facts to objectively exist, and thus for the A-Theory of Time to be correct (for the B/C-Theory of Time is a tenseless model).

So, something noticeable at this point is that in order for the afterlife to exist, the A-Theory of Time must be true. If the B/C-Theory of Time is true then there cannot logically be an afterlife.

Now, Relativity suggests that the B-Theory of Time is true (as time is a variable and not a constant), retrocausality in quantum mechanics suggests eternalism is true which, in turn, suggests the B-Theory of Time (through McTaggart's Paradox).

And so, sciences helps suggest that the B-Theory of Time is correct, which, in turn, refutes the existence of an afterlife.

I put some thought into this, personally I am inclined to believe the B-Theory of Time however, I am also inclined to believe that the "self" does continue after death which, as you may imagine, put me with a bit of a paradox.

Quite so.

The way I see it, even though the "self" may continue after death outside "our" universe, this does not necessarily mean that it has to exist outside "a" universe.

I think you misunderstand the point.

The life must objectively "end" in our universe before it can continue/start in anywhere but our universe (even if it is in another universe).

That "ending" is not possible if tensed facts do not exist.

As such, it is possible for the B/C-Theory of Time to be true while Physicalism may not not true as the "self" could be moving from one linear existence to another linear existence even though the destination would lie outside our universe.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Hiu
Posts: 1,009
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9/28/2016 10:57:09 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 5:51:27 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
When I die the Hale Bopp Mother Ship will collect my subconsciousness and add me to the collective where we will commence to assimilate knowledge across the universe.

Prove me wrong.

Sounds like Star Trek's version of "the borg"
Geogeer
Posts: 4,274
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9/28/2016 11:05:52 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 10:53:20 PM, SNP1 wrote:

I think you misunderstand the point.

The life must objectively "end" in our universe before it can continue/start in anywhere but our universe (even if it is in another universe).

Wouldn't this be disproven if we simultaneously exist in a spiritual realm as well?
Stymie13
Posts: 2,162
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9/28/2016 11:06:05 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 10:57:09 PM, Hiu wrote:
At 9/28/2016 5:51:27 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
When I die the Hale Bopp Mother Ship will collect my subconsciousness and add me to the collective where we will commence to assimilate knowledge across the universe.

Prove me wrong.

Sounds like Star Trek's version of "the borg"

Combination of the borg, braniac from superman, and the hale bopp cult.... but really a sarcastic response to those always belittling people who believe in a higher power and a combination of ancient aliens. I've kind of lost my patience with those who can't discuss without belittling... I've heard the 'skydaddy/super friend in the sky/omnidude and all the other pejoratives so much that it's become trite. Atheists, which I 'defined' myself as for 28 years have started irking me as of late with the smugness and irrational expectations. Live and let live...

Plus, I liked Braniac and the Borg Queen from First Contact was, in a weird cybernetic way, kind of hot.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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9/28/2016 11:08:41 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 11:05:52 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/28/2016 10:53:20 PM, SNP1 wrote:

I think you misunderstand the point.

The life must objectively "end" in our universe before it can continue/start in anywhere but our universe (even if it is in another universe).

Wouldn't this be disproven if we simultaneously exist in a spiritual realm as well?

If existence is simultaneous, then possibly yes, that could potentially be a solution. If this existence, however, is a form of mind-body dualism, than it is not a solution.
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Fly
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9/28/2016 11:10:52 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

Do you have any concept or recollection of what or where your consciousness was prior to your earthly life now?

Neither do I.
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Silly_Billy
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9/28/2016 11:16:21 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 10:53:20 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:49:44 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/28/2016 9:16:25 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 8:42:47 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/28/2016 7:10:45 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 3:45:03 PM, rnjs wrote:
Many people, it seems, are quite sure that when they die they will simply cease to exist it's been stated dogmatically on this forum and by people I know in real life. I just wonder how people know this, do they have evidence or what.

In order for an afterlife to exist either:
1) The "self" must continue to exist within this universe
2) The "self" must continue to exist outside of this universe

For 1 to happen dualism must be true
For 2 to happen tensed facts must exist

The B-Theory of Time refutes both ideas, and that principal us supported by modern physics.

I can expand on this if you like.

Please do. I am quite interested to learn why a "self" would not be able to continue existing.

If the universe is the continued existence of oneself in the same universe, that requires for there to be a non-physical part of people that is the "self", which requires dualism to be true.

The fact that we experience a flow of time means that either the A-Theory of Time is true OR that the B/C-Theory of Time + Physicalism are true.

If the afterlife is the continued existence of oneself outside of the universe, then life must have an objective "end", and there must, therefore, be an objective "after" to ones life. This requires for tensed facts to objectively exist, and thus for the A-Theory of Time to be correct (for the B/C-Theory of Time is a tenseless model).

So, something noticeable at this point is that in order for the afterlife to exist, the A-Theory of Time must be true. If the B/C-Theory of Time is true then there cannot logically be an afterlife.

Now, Relativity suggests that the B-Theory of Time is true (as time is a variable and not a constant), retrocausality in quantum mechanics suggests eternalism is true which, in turn, suggests the B-Theory of Time (through McTaggart's Paradox).

And so, sciences helps suggest that the B-Theory of Time is correct, which, in turn, refutes the existence of an afterlife.

I put some thought into this, personally I am inclined to believe the B-Theory of Time however, I am also inclined to believe that the "self" does continue after death which, as you may imagine, put me with a bit of a paradox.

Quite so.

The way I see it, even though the "self" may continue after death outside "our" universe, this does not necessarily mean that it has to exist outside "a" universe.

I think you misunderstand the point.

The life must objectively "end" in our universe before it can continue/start in anywhere but our universe (even if it is in another universe).

That "ending" is not possible if tensed facts do not exist.


Without trying to go into a nitpicking mode, what you say implies that you also do not believe in Death for Death would be the ending that you say is not possible if tensed facts do not exist. Yet we know that there is such a thing as Death because whether we want to believe in time or not, at the end of the day we do all objectively end up in our graves.

Also... through Virtual Reality, it is theoretically possible to be in two places at the same time, namely the place where we are in person (physically) and the place where we are in spirit (mentally). If such a thing is possible through the technology that we already have today (no matter how primitive it may still be), how much more will become possible for a technology that is a million years ahead of our time?
SNP1
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9/28/2016 11:20:34 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 11:16:21 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
Without trying to go into a nitpicking mode, what you say implies that you also do not believe in Death for Death would be the ending that you say is not possible if tensed facts do not exist.

Death is an illusion that exists due to our flawed perception of the universe, yes.

Yet we know that there is such a thing as Death because whether we want to believe in time or not, at the end of the day we do all objectively end up in our graves.

The flow of time is not real. As long as there is "life" at any point in time, then from the observer/objective/noumenal view of reality, that life never ends. True it isn't everywhere in "time", just like it isn't everywhere in "space", but it is always there and never stops being there.

Also... through Virtual Reality, it is theoretically possible to be in two places at the same time, namely the place where we are in person (physically) and the place where we are in spirit (mentally). If such a thing is possible through the technology that we already have today (no matter how primitive it may still be), how much more will become possible for a technology that is a million years ahead of our time?
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