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Christians: What's The Origin Of Satan & Evil

IRONHIDE
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9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?
brontoraptor
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9/30/2016 1:22:49 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Of course He planned it this way. Satan by his own free evil will simply became a pawn in God's grand design to refine, prove, and define reality for what it is and what it is worth.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
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9/30/2016 1:24:38 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Here is a video to simplify it for you. Link in next post-
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
brontoraptor
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9/30/2016 1:25:14 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
Simplified link

http://youtu.be...
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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9/30/2016 1:31:10 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

What went wrong??? They chose pride and envy over contentment.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
brontoraptor
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9/30/2016 1:38:21 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 1:31:10 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?


What went wrong??? They chose pride and envy over contentment.

With free will you gotta start somewhere. We started out in the gutter. We grew and are growing. We end immortal and perfected.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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9/30/2016 2:15:21 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 1:22:49 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Of course He planned it this way. Satan by his own free evil will simply became a pawn in God's grand design to refine, prove, and define reality for what it is and what it is worth.

I would respectfully submit that Satan did not have free will, neither does mankind.
Now listen carefully. Here is wisdom beyond its years. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.

Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?

I have just shown you one reason why God calls the WISDOM of this world STUPIDITY!

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).

First, Christendom assumes that God"s creation of humans malfunctioned -- it did NOT!

Second, they assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!

One unscriptural assumption added to another unscriptural assumption does not equal a Bible Truth!

Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God"s sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God"s solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.

The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-minded human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning. Here"s the proof:

If a thousand Christians were given the assignment to write an essay describing the world as it was after God completed it, but before man sinned, I am positive that we would get one thousand essays describing the unbelievable beauty, harmony, and perfection of all creation including man and beast. However, would such essays be based on the Scriptures? Let"s look at a little understood Scripture.

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that"s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

Wow! Did you know that Scripture is in the Bible? Have you ever meditated at length on its meaning? This one Scripture does much damage to Christian doctrine. From a strictly carnal-minded approach, this Scripture is devastating. Let"s see what these words entail from Strong"s GREEK DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT:

VANITY: empty, profitless, vain, transientness [temporary], depravity [wickedness].

BONDAGE: slavery, subjection, subserviency.

CORRUPTION: shrivel, wither, spoil, ruin, deprave, defile, destroy, decay, perish

GROAN: moan, calamity, be in straits, murmur, grief, grudge, anguish.

TRAVAIL: pangs, to pain together, travail as in birth.

PAIN: anguish, toil for daily subsistence, starving.

The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn"t ask anyone"s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

And most of the glory that God will receive is from the glory that He gives to all mankind.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God"s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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9/30/2016 2:25:08 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 2:15:21 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:22:49 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Of course He planned it this way. Satan by his own free evil will simply became a pawn in God's grand design to refine, prove, and define reality for what it is and what it is worth.

I would respectfully submit that Satan did not have free will, neither does mankind.
Now listen carefully. Here is wisdom beyond its years. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.

Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?

I have just shown you one reason why God calls the WISDOM of this world STUPIDITY!

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).

First, Christendom assumes that God"s creation of humans malfunctioned -- it did NOT!

Second, they assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!

One unscriptural assumption added to another unscriptural assumption does not equal a Bible Truth!

Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God"s sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God"s solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.

The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-minded human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning. Here"s the proof:

If a thousand Christians were given the assignment to write an essay describing the world as it was after God completed it, but before man sinned, I am positive that we would get one thousand essays describing the unbelievable beauty, harmony, and perfection of all creation including man and beast. However, would such essays be based on the Scriptures? Let"s look at a little understood Scripture.

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that"s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

Wow! Did you know that Scripture is in the Bible? Have you ever meditated at length on its meaning? This one Scripture does much damage to Christian doctrine. From a strictly carnal-minded approach, this Scripture is devastating. Let"s see what these words entail from Strong"s GREEK DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT:

VANITY: empty, profitless, vain, transientness [temporary], depravity [wickedness].

BONDAGE: slavery, subjection, subserviency.

CORRUPTION: shrivel, wither, spoil, ruin, deprave, defile, destroy, decay, perish

GROAN: moan, calamity, be in straits, murmur, grief, grudge, anguish.

TRAVAIL: pangs, to pain together, travail as in birth.

PAIN: anguish, toil for daily subsistence, starving.

The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn"t ask anyone"s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

And most of the glory that God will receive is from the glory that He gives to all mankind.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God"s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

Said "machine" never malfunctioned. It did exactly what it was intended to do. If you take a crap, just because it isn't rainbows and butterflies in that toilet, that doesn't mean your butt malfunctioned.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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9/30/2016 2:35:17 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 2:25:08 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:15:21 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:22:49 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Of course He planned it this way. Satan by his own free evil will simply became a pawn in God's grand design to refine, prove, and define reality for what it is and what it is worth.

I would respectfully submit that Satan did not have free will, neither does mankind.
Now listen carefully. Here is wisdom beyond its years. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.

Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?

I have just shown you one reason why God calls the WISDOM of this world STUPIDITY!

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).

First, Christendom assumes that God"s creation of humans malfunctioned -- it did NOT!

Second, they assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!

One unscriptural assumption added to another unscriptural assumption does not equal a Bible Truth!

Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God"s sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God"s solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.

The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-minded human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning. Here"s the proof:

If a thousand Christians were given the assignment to write an essay describing the world as it was after God completed it, but before man sinned, I am positive that we would get one thousand essays describing the unbelievable beauty, harmony, and perfection of all creation including man and beast. However, would such essays be based on the Scriptures? Let"s look at a little understood Scripture.

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that"s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

Wow! Did you know that Scripture is in the Bible? Have you ever meditated at length on its meaning? This one Scripture does much damage to Christian doctrine. From a strictly carnal-minded approach, this Scripture is devastating. Let"s see what these words entail from Strong"s GREEK DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT:

VANITY: empty, profitless, vain, transientness [temporary], depravity [wickedness].

BONDAGE: slavery, subjection, subserviency.

CORRUPTION: shrivel, wither, spoil, ruin, deprave, defile, destroy, decay, perish

GROAN: moan, calamity, be in straits, murmur, grief, grudge, anguish.

TRAVAIL: pangs, to pain together, travail as in birth.

PAIN: anguish, toil for daily subsistence, starving.

The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn"t ask anyone"s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

And most of the glory that God will receive is from the glory that He gives to all mankind.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God"s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

Said "machine" never malfunctioned. It did exactly what it was intended to do. If you take a crap, just because it isn't rainbows and butterflies in that toilet, that doesn't mean your butt malfunctioned.

So you agree that Satan did exactly what God intended for him to do, upon his creation and Satan did not act of his own "free will" but acted according to what he was designed for. I was confused when you stated Satan acted of his own "free will"
brontoraptor
Posts: 11,685
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9/30/2016 2:40:38 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 2:35:17 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:25:08 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:15:21 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:22:49 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Of course He planned it this way. Satan by his own free evil will simply became a pawn in God's grand design to refine, prove, and define reality for what it is and what it is worth.

I would respectfully submit that Satan did not have free will, neither does mankind.
Now listen carefully. Here is wisdom beyond its years. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.

Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?

I have just shown you one reason why God calls the WISDOM of this world STUPIDITY!

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).

First, Christendom assumes that God"s creation of humans malfunctioned -- it did NOT!

Second, they assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility -- He DOES!

One unscriptural assumption added to another unscriptural assumption does not equal a Bible Truth!

Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God"s sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God"s solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.

The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-minded human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning. Here"s the proof:

If a thousand Christians were given the assignment to write an essay describing the world as it was after God completed it, but before man sinned, I am positive that we would get one thousand essays describing the unbelievable beauty, harmony, and perfection of all creation including man and beast. However, would such essays be based on the Scriptures? Let"s look at a little understood Scripture.

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that"s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

Wow! Did you know that Scripture is in the Bible? Have you ever meditated at length on its meaning? This one Scripture does much damage to Christian doctrine. From a strictly carnal-minded approach, this Scripture is devastating. Let"s see what these words entail from Strong"s GREEK DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT:

VANITY: empty, profitless, vain, transientness [temporary], depravity [wickedness].

BONDAGE: slavery, subjection, subserviency.

CORRUPTION: shrivel, wither, spoil, ruin, deprave, defile, destroy, decay, perish

GROAN: moan, calamity, be in straits, murmur, grief, grudge, anguish.

TRAVAIL: pangs, to pain together, travail as in birth.

PAIN: anguish, toil for daily subsistence, starving.

The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn"t ask anyone"s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

And most of the glory that God will receive is from the glory that He gives to all mankind.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God"s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

Said "machine" never malfunctioned. It did exactly what it was intended to do. If you take a crap, just because it isn't rainbows and butterflies in that toilet, that doesn't mean your butt malfunctioned.

So you agree that Satan did exactly what God intended for him to do, upon his creation and Satan did not act of his own "free will" but acted according to what he was designed for. I was confused when you stated Satan acted of his own "free will"

Knowing the final outcome and stripping free will are two different things. I know exactly what Doc Holiday said in the movie Tombstone. Did I make him say it? Nope. Do I know what he'll say next? Yep. Did I have to start the movie? Nope. But I chose to push play and never made anyone do or say anything. They chose to.
"What Donald Trump is doing is representing the absolute heartbreak, and anger, and frustration at a government gone mad."

http://youtu.be...
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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9/30/2016 2:59:40 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 2:40:38 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:35:17 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:25:08 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:15:21 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:22:49 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:


So you agree that Satan did exactly what God intended for him to do, upon his creation and Satan did not act of his own "free will" but acted according to what he was designed for. I was confused when you stated Satan acted of his own "free will"

Knowing the final outcome and stripping free will are two different things. I know exactly what Doc Holiday said in the movie Tombstone. Did I make him say it? Nope. Do I know what he'll say next? Yep. Did I have to start the movie? Nope. But I chose to push play and never made anyone do or say anything. They chose to.

Here are a few thoughts/questions about the topic of our discussion.

The carnal mind is a mind debarred of spiritual understanding. Not only does it not understand spiritual things; it is an impossibility to do so. The carnal mind cannot spiritually repent. Therefore it is not "free." It is in fact, enslaved to sin. No "slave" is "free." Let"s look at a few very basic Truths:

"God"[is]"SPIRIT""(John 4:24).

""the Words that I speak unto you"areSPIRIT"""(John 6:63).

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the SPIRIT which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
"
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man"s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy SPIRIT teaches; comparing"spiritual things with spiritual.
"
But the natural man"[still being carnal-minded]"receives not the things of the SPIRIT of God: neither CAN HE know them, because they are"spiritually discerned""(I Cor. 2:12-14).

Clearly, the natural mind of man unaided by the Spirit of God, is not "free" to receive""the things of the Spirit of God, neither CAN HE KNOW THEM""

God is SPIRIT and the words of Christ are SPIRIT. To understand these words we must have the Spirit, which is of God. We can then "compare" or (Greek: "match") spiritual with spiritual, and understand.

If we have the Spirit of God we can do this. But if we are carnal-minded and have not the Spirit of God, we cannot do this. Here is why:

"Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred]"against God: for it is NOT subject to the"[spiritual]"law of God, neither indeed CAN BE""(Rom. 8:7).

Now follow me closely. What, pray tell, happens between being carnally-minded and not loving God or being subject to His spiritual law, and later, loving God and being subject to His spiritual law? What happened and WHO was responsible for causing it to happen?

According to "free-willers," a person must choose of his own will, to love and obey God. Any person with a "free will" is supposedly able to hate and disobey God on one day and then decide for himself on another day to love and obey God. This is believed to be self-repentance. And this, we are told is something that every individual must do on his own, seeing that God will not make one or force one to do this. It must be "freely" chosen, or of what value is "forced love," as they argue?

Here is a problem of major proportions starring us right in the face with this free will assertion. If a carnal minded person cannot love God and cannot be subject to God"s law, how in the world is he going to choose to love and obey God with his carnal mind? God"s Word says that it is not possible (""neither indeed CAN BE""King James/""for neither is it ABLE""Concordant Literal New Testament).

God"s word tells us that the natural, carnal mind of man, [all mankind"the human race], cannot love or obey God. For it:

"receives not the things of the spirit," "neither indeed CAN BE/for neither is it ABLE."

Therefore the will of man, of all mankind"the entire human race, is not "free" to contradict these Scriptural Truths of God.

I'm not talking about the verses here or there where a person is said to have made a "choice." We are not talking about "making choices." Dumb computers can made "choices."

What I am trying to draw your undivided attention to is the Scriptural teaching of the theological/physiological/philosophical power and ability of the natural, unaided human mind to choose good.

We need to stick to the current subject. The subject is not can a man make a choice. The subject is can a man make a choice to obey God with his natural mind?

"I have shown you just a small fraction of what God says in His Word, that the natural, unaided mind of man cannot "will" and choose to do good.

The Scriptures have already concluded that man"s will is not free to do that which it cannot do. Yet should God intervene and cause this same person to repent and turn to God in obedience, how can this same person take credit for repenting and turning to God, seeing that it was ALL OF GOD? Yes, the human mind and will can will and can choose to obey God, but only when God causes it to do so
Did Jesus obey His God and Father, without a cause?

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily,"[truly, truly"what Jesus is about to say is the Gospel Truth!]I say unto you,"THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF"""(John 5:19).

Can we obey our Lord Jesus Christ, without a cause ?

"I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING""(John 15:5).

Where then is the "freedom of will" and "freedom of choice" in these two statements of God"s Word? They are nowhere. There is no such thing. They don"t exist. The theory of "free moral agency" is one of the foolish and stupid wisdoms of this world.

Love NOT the world, neither the things[nor the stupid wisdom]"that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is NOT in him... And the world PASSES AWAY"""(I John 2:15 & 17
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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9/30/2016 2:24:13 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 2:59:40 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:40:38 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:35:17 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:25:08 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:15:21 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:22:49 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:


So you agree that Satan did exactly what God intended for him to do, upon his creation and Satan did not act of his own "free will" but acted according to what he was designed for. I was confused when you stated Satan acted of his own "free will"

Knowing the final outcome and stripping free will are two different things. I know exactly what Doc Holiday said in the movie Tombstone. Did I make him say it? Nope. Do I know what he'll say next? Yep. Did I have to start the movie? Nope. But I chose to push play and never made anyone do or say anything. They chose to.

Here are a few thoughts/questions about the topic of our discussion.

The carnal mind is a mind debarred of spiritual understanding. Not only does it not understand spiritual things; it is an impossibility to do so. The carnal mind cannot spiritually repent. Therefore it is not "free." It is in fact, enslaved to sin. No "slave" is "free." Let"s look at a few very basic Truths:

"God"[is]"SPIRIT""(John 4:24).

""the Words that I speak unto you"areSPIRIT"""(John 6:63).

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the SPIRIT which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
"
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man"s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy SPIRIT teaches; comparing"spiritual things with spiritual.
"
But the natural man"[still being carnal-minded]"receives not the things of the SPIRIT of God: neither CAN HE know them, because they are"spiritually discerned""(I Cor. 2:12-14).


Clearly, the natural mind of man unaided by the Spirit of God, is not "free" to receive""the things of the Spirit of God, neither CAN HE KNOW THEM""

God is SPIRIT and the words of Christ are SPIRIT. To understand these words we must have the Spirit, which is of God. We can then "compare" or (Greek: "match") spiritual with spiritual, and understand.

If we have the Spirit of God we can do this. But if we are carnal-minded and have not the Spirit of God, we cannot do this. Here is why:

"Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred]"against God: for it is NOT subject to the"[spiritual]"law of God, neither indeed CAN BE""(Rom. 8:7).

Now follow me closely. What, pray tell, happens between being carnally-minded and not loving God or being subject to His spiritual law, and later, loving God and being subject to His spiritual law? What happened and WHO was responsible for causing it to happen?

According to "free-willers," a person must choose of his own will, to love and obey God. Any person with a "free will" is supposedly able to hate and disobey God on one day and then decide for himself on another day to love and obey God. This is believed to be self-repentance. And this, we are told is something that every individual must do on his own, seeing that God will not make one or force one to do this. It must be "freely" chosen, or of what value is "forced love," as they argue?

Here is a problem of major proportions starring us right in the face with this free will assertion. If a carnal minded person cannot love God and cannot be subject to God"s law, how in the world is he going to choose to love and obey God with his carnal mind? God"s Word says that it is not possible (""neither indeed CAN BE""King James/""for neither is it ABLE""Concordant Literal New Testament).

God"s word tells us that the natural, carnal mind of man, [all mankind"the human race], cannot love or obey God. For it:

"receives not the things of the spirit," "neither indeed CAN BE/for neither is it ABLE."

Therefore the will of man, of all mankind"the entire human race, is not "free" to contradict these Scriptural Truths of God.

I'm not talking about the verses here or there where a person is said to have made a "choice." We are not talking about "making choices." Dumb computers can made "choices."


What I am trying to draw your undivided attention to is the Scriptural teaching of the theological/physiological/philosophical power and ability of the natural, unaided human mind to choose good.

We need to stick to the current subject. The subject is not can a man make a choice. The subject is can a man make a choice to obey God with his natural mind?

"I have shown you just a small fraction of what God says in His Word, that the natural, unaided mind of man cannot "will" and choose to do good.

The Scriptures have already concluded that man"s will is not free to do that which it cannot do. Yet should God intervene and cause this same person to repent and turn to God in obedience, how can this same person take credit for repenting and turning to God, seeing that it was ALL OF GOD? Yes, the human mind and will can will and can choose to obey God, but only when God causes it to do so
Did Jesus obey His God and Father, without a cause?

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily,"[truly, truly"what Jesus is about to say is the Gospel Truth!]I say unto you,"THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF"""(John 5:19).

Can we obey our Lord Jesus Christ, without a cause ?

"I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING""(John 15:5).

Where then is the "freedom of will" and "freedom of choice" in these two statements of God"s Word? They are nowhere. There is no such thing. They don"t exist. The theory of "free moral agency" is one of the foolish and stupid wisdoms of this world.

Love NOT the world, neither the things[nor the stupid wisdom]"that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is NOT in him... And the world PASSES AWAY"""(I John 2:15 & 17

You keep using the word spirit/spiritual, but have yet to define what it is exactly, so your entire post is meaningless without the definition.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
tarantula
Posts: 858
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9/30/2016 2:53:33 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Any mess the world is in is due to god creating human nature, it screwed up not humans!
MasonicSlayer
Posts: 2,320
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9/30/2016 3:09:29 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 2:53:33 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Any mess the world is in is due to god creating human nature, it screwed up not humans!

I'm confused. You spend all day posting insulting remarks that suggest God does not exist. And then it's moments like these where the little witch comes out to blame her pathetic life on God, rather than take personal responsibility for becoming the piece of trash that you truly are.
tarantula
Posts: 858
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9/30/2016 4:48:45 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 3:09:29 PM, MasonicSlayer wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:53:33 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Any mess the world is in is due to god creating human nature, it screwed up not humans!

I'm confused. You spend all day posting insulting remarks that suggest God does not exist. And then it's moments like these where the little witch comes out to blame her pathetic life on God, rather than take personal responsibility for becoming the piece of trash that you truly are.

You have no evidence the sky fairy does exist do you? If it does and is as the Bible describes it, there is no insult too strong for it.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,274
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9/30/2016 4:59:03 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

In creation God desired all to be eternally with him. He created both the angelic body and physical creation. Love requires free choice, and God chose to create all even knowing that some would reject His love. God desires all to be saved from the consequences of our first parents and has made the means for so to be done.
MasonicSlayer
Posts: 2,320
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9/30/2016 4:59:14 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 4:48:45 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 9/30/2016 3:09:29 PM, MasonicSlayer wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:53:33 PM, tarantula wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Any mess the world is in is due to god creating human nature, it screwed up not humans!

I'm confused. You spend all day posting insulting remarks that suggest God does not exist. And then it's moments like these where the little witch comes out to blame her pathetic life on God, rather than take personal responsibility for becoming the piece of trash that you truly are.

You have no evidence the sky fairy does exist do you? If it does and is as the Bible describes it, there is no insult too strong for it.

How would you know? You're just a theological skank, sleeping with any passing thought of the moment.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,225
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9/30/2016 5:05:12 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
God and the devil are inventions.

In order to distance ourselves from the moral torpidity and immoral actions we might commit, we came up with a scape-goat, this all evil thing that for reasons beyond our comprehension, wanted us to do something contrary to our societal momentum.

In doing so, however, we then conversely had to attribute those good things to something else as well, and because those good things improved society/increased societal momentum, such an attribution must be venerated and found as sacrosanct to spread. It had to be seen as "bigger than you", else it could hold no authority. Now that we are much more enlightened as to human nature and the world around us, we could shed such a superstition, but more people than not find comfort in the idea that something other than themselves spurred evil actions, and also grants them moral authority for doing what something "bigger than us" and "is always good" wants.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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9/30/2016 5:07:10 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 2:24:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:59:40 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:40:38 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:35:17 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:25:08 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:15:21 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:22:49 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:



You keep using the word spirit/spiritual, but have yet to define what it is exactly, so your entire post is meaningless without the definition.

Simple Definition of spirit

the force within a person that is believed to give the body life, energy, and power

the inner quality or nature of a person

a person

Full Definition of spirit

an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

a supernatural being or essence: as

a capitalized : holy spirit

soul 2a

an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : ghost 2

a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being

temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated <in high spirits>

the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person

the activating or essential principle influencing a person
an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : mood

a special attitude or frame of mind <the money-making spirit was for a time driven back " J. A. Froude>

the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something <undertaken in a spirit of fun>

a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions

a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature

a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness <denied the charge with spirit>

distillate 1: as (1) : the liquid containing ethanol and water that is distilled from an alcoholic liquid or mash "often used in plural

Now study these different applications and utilize critical thinking skills as to which are applicable to attribute to the context of discussion.
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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9/30/2016 5:15:11 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 4:59:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

In creation God desired all to be eternally with him. He created both the angelic body and physical creation. Love requires free choice, and God chose to create all even knowing that some would reject His love. God desires all to be saved from the consequences of our first parents and has made the means for so to be done.

Isaiah 55:11

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

Glad to know he desires all to be saved and he will accomplish just that.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,274
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9/30/2016 5:33:51 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 5:15:11 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 4:59:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

In creation God desired all to be eternally with him. He created both the angelic body and physical creation. Love requires free choice, and God chose to create all even knowing that some would reject His love. God desires all to be saved from the consequences of our first parents and has made the means for so to be done.

Isaiah 55:11

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

Glad to know he desires all to be saved and he will accomplish just that.

His will is being accomplished. He willed that we all have freewill in order that we could choose to love Him. All those who truly love him will live eternally with Him.

The scripture passage did not say that God wills all to be saved. He calls each of us daily; he has made salvation available to all. God doesn't force himself upon us.
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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9/30/2016 5:47:23 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 5:33:51 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/30/2016 5:15:11 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 4:59:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

In creation God desired all to be eternally with him. He created both the angelic body and physical creation. Love requires free choice, and God chose to create all even knowing that some would reject His love. God desires all to be saved from the consequences of our first parents and has made the means for so to be done.

Isaiah 55:11

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

Glad to know he desires all to be saved and he will accomplish just that.

His will is being accomplished. He willed that we all have freewill in order that we could choose to love Him. All those who truly love him will live eternally with Him.

The scripture passage did not say that God wills all to be saved. He calls each of us daily; he has made salvation available to all. God doesn't force himself upon us.

Oh Really ? God does not have a will to have all men saved ?

1 Timothy 2:4

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth".

You say Hogwash. He will not have all men to be saved. Men must save them selves by their own free will. Why is that ?

Also, would you care to debate "Free Will" I regards to if we posses such a power or if only God himself is the only one to posses such a power ?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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9/30/2016 5:55:17 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 5:07:10 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:24:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:59:40 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:40:38 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:35:17 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:25:08 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:15:21 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:22:49 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:



You keep using the word spirit/spiritual, but have yet to define what it is exactly, so your entire post is meaningless without the definition.



Simple Definition of spirit

the force within a person that is believed to give the body life, energy, and power

the inner quality or nature of a person

a person

Full Definition of spirit

an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

a supernatural being or essence: as

a capitalized : holy spirit

soul 2a

an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : ghost 2

a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being

temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated <in high spirits>

the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person

the activating or essential principle influencing a person
an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : mood

a special attitude or frame of mind <the money-making spirit was for a time driven back " J. A. Froude>

the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something <undertaken in a spirit of fun>

a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions

a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature

a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness <denied the charge with spirit>

distillate 1: as (1) : the liquid containing ethanol and water that is distilled from an alcoholic liquid or mash "often used in plural


Now study these different applications and utilize critical thinking skills as to which are applicable to attribute to the context of discussion.

A supernatural being, which of course, has never been shown to exist thus still making your entire post meaningless.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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9/30/2016 6:01:01 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 5:55:17 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/30/2016 5:07:10 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:24:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:59:40 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:40:38 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:35:17 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:25:08 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:15:21 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:22:49 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:



You keep using the word spirit/spiritual, but have yet to define what it is exactly, so your entire post is meaningless without the definition.



Simple Definition of spirit

the force within a person that is believed to give the body life, energy, and power

the inner quality or nature of a person

a person

Full Definition of spirit

an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

a supernatural being or essence: as

a capitalized : holy spirit

soul 2a

an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : ghost 2

a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being

temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated <in high spirits>

the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person

the activating or essential principle influencing a person
an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : mood

a special attitude or frame of mind <the money-making spirit was for a time driven back " J. A. Froude>

the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something <undertaken in a spirit of fun>

a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions

a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature

a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness <denied the charge with spirit>

distillate 1: as (1) : the liquid containing ethanol and water that is distilled from an alcoholic liquid or mash "often used in plural


Now study these different applications and utilize critical thinking skills as to which are applicable to attribute to the context of discussion.

A supernatural being, which of course, has never been shown to exist thus still making your entire post meaningless.

Is it your belief there is no God that is a spiritual supernatural being, or you don't know because you haven't been shown proof positive there is ?
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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9/30/2016 6:10:35 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 5:33:51 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/30/2016 5:15:11 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 4:59:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

In creation God desired all to be eternally with him. He created both the angelic body and physical creation. Love requires free choice, and God chose to create all even knowing that some would reject His love. God desires all to be saved from the consequences of our first parents and has made the means for so to be done.

Isaiah 55:11

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

Glad to know he desires all to be saved and he will accomplish just that.

His will is being accomplished. He willed that we all have freewill in order that we could choose to love Him. All those who truly love him will live eternally with Him.

The scripture passage did not say that God wills all to be saved. He calls each of us daily; he has made salvation available to all. God doesn't force himself upon us.

Not only does he say "He will" in 1 Timothy 2:4 it says this in just the verse before it

Verse 3: " For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;"

You say this is not good and acceptable. Get your act together God, what's wrong with you saying it is good and acceptable. Man says otherwise God!

Verse 4: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"

You say Hogwash. No you wont God. Its up to mans free will.

and I could go on and on and on with scripture after scripture after scripture. But it would do no good, as man wants to believe that it was them who decided to save them selves and not God who IS going to save them.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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9/30/2016 6:20:18 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 6:01:01 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 5:55:17 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/30/2016 5:07:10 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:24:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:59:40 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:40:38 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:35:17 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:25:08 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:15:21 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:22:49 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:



You keep using the word spirit/spiritual, but have yet to define what it is exactly, so your entire post is meaningless without the definition.



Simple Definition of spirit

the force within a person that is believed to give the body life, energy, and power

the inner quality or nature of a person

a person

Full Definition of spirit

an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

a supernatural being or essence: as

a capitalized : holy spirit

soul 2a

an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : ghost 2

a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being

temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated <in high spirits>

the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person

the activating or essential principle influencing a person
an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : mood

a special attitude or frame of mind <the money-making spirit was for a time driven back " J. A. Froude>

the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something <undertaken in a spirit of fun>

a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions

a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature

a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness <denied the charge with spirit>

distillate 1: as (1) : the liquid containing ethanol and water that is distilled from an alcoholic liquid or mash "often used in plural


Now study these different applications and utilize critical thinking skills as to which are applicable to attribute to the context of discussion.

A supernatural being, which of course, has never been shown to exist thus still making your entire post meaningless.

Is it your belief there is no God that is a spiritual supernatural being, or you don't know because you haven't been shown proof positive there is ?

Did you read what I wrote?

"A supernatural being ... has never been shown to exist"

Notice that nowhere did I say anything about what I believe?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
graceofgod
Posts: 5,095
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9/30/2016 6:26:00 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

Free will, God did not make robots, he wants people to chose to follow his word..
Geogeer
Posts: 4,274
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9/30/2016 6:36:17 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 5:47:23 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 5:33:51 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/30/2016 5:15:11 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 4:59:03 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
I heard a world-famous televangelist say in his sermon that it was never God"s intention that Adam and Eve disobey His command and sin by eating of the forbidden tree. Most Christians would agree. They think God did not want Adam to sin; and Adam did not need to sin. If Adam had not sinned, we would all be living in a giant Garden of Eden to this very day. We would be in perfect health, there would be no sorrow, we would have pleasure twenty-four hours a day, we would never die, we would be happy and God too would be happy.

If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn"t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn"t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?

In creation God desired all to be eternally with him. He created both the angelic body and physical creation. Love requires free choice, and God chose to create all even knowing that some would reject His love. God desires all to be saved from the consequences of our first parents and has made the means for so to be done.

Isaiah 55:11

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

Glad to know he desires all to be saved and he will accomplish just that.

His will is being accomplished. He willed that we all have freewill in order that we could choose to love Him. All those who truly love him will live eternally with Him.

The scripture passage did not say that God wills all to be saved. He calls each of us daily; he has made salvation available to all. God doesn't force himself upon us.

Oh Really ? God does not have a will to have all men saved ?

1 Timothy 2:4

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth".

Yup pick a translation that uses old english style writing to try to make your point.

Going back to the original Greek it is translated best as desires.

http://biblehub.com...

http://biblehub.com...

However, on a more precise point, that is exactly what sin is, an act against God's will. Thus in a global sense all of history will progress as God desires. However, each of us have a personal choice to accept or reject His will.

You say Hogwash. He will not have all men to be saved. Men must save them selves by their own free will. Why is that ?

Actually that would be completely false. Men cannot save themselves. All salvation is an act of grace by God. However, God will not force you to comply with his will.

Also, would you care to debate "Free Will" I regards to if we posses such a power or if only God himself is the only one to posses such a power ?

I never back down from debating anything that I defend in the forums (unlike most on here).
IRONHIDE
Posts: 326
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9/30/2016 6:44:42 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 6:20:18 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/30/2016 6:01:01 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 5:55:17 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/30/2016 5:07:10 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:24:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:59:40 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:40:38 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:35:17 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:25:08 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:15:21 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:22:49 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:



You keep using the word spirit/spiritual, but have yet to define what it is exactly, so your entire post is meaningless without the definition.



Simple Definition of spirit

the force within a person that is believed to give the body life, energy, and power

the inner quality or nature of a person

a person

Full Definition of spirit

an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

a supernatural being or essence: as

a capitalized : holy spirit

soul 2a

an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : ghost 2

a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being

temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated <in high spirits>

the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person

the activating or essential principle influencing a person
an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : mood

a special attitude or frame of mind <the money-making spirit was for a time driven back " J. A. Froude>

the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something <undertaken in a spirit of fun>

a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions

a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature

a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness <denied the charge with spirit>

distillate 1: as (1) : the liquid containing ethanol and water that is distilled from an alcoholic liquid or mash "often used in plural


Now study these different applications and utilize critical thinking skills as to which are applicable to attribute to the context of discussion.

A supernatural being, which of course, has never been shown to exist thus still making your entire post meaningless.

Is it your belief there is no God that is a spiritual supernatural being, or you don't know because you haven't been shown proof positive there is ?

Did you read what I wrote?

"A supernatural being ... has never been shown to exist"

Notice that nowhere did I say anything about what I believe?

Ok. I can tell your a booger eater and lack critical skills such as reading and comprehension, communication along with other vital skills...

It is evident I simply asked you a question about you belief, as a result of your statement, that did not state what you believe. I can no longer carry on a conversation with someone who does not demonstrate the use of a viable brain.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,095
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9/30/2016 6:50:12 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 6:44:42 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 6:20:18 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/30/2016 6:01:01 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 5:55:17 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/30/2016 5:07:10 PM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:24:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:59:40 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:40:38 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:35:17 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:25:08 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 2:15:21 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:22:49 AM, brontoraptor wrote:
At 9/30/2016 1:15:37 AM, IRONHIDE wrote:



You keep using the word spirit/spiritual, but have yet to define what it is exactly, so your entire post is meaningless without the definition.



Simple Definition of spirit

the force within a person that is believed to give the body life, energy, and power

the inner quality or nature of a person

a person

Full Definition of spirit

an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms

a supernatural being or essence: as

a capitalized : holy spirit

soul 2a

an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : ghost 2

a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being

temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated <in high spirits>

the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person

the activating or essential principle influencing a person
an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : mood

a special attitude or frame of mind <the money-making spirit was for a time driven back " J. A. Froude>

the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something <undertaken in a spirit of fun>

a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions

a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature

a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness <denied the charge with spirit>

distillate 1: as (1) : the liquid containing ethanol and water that is distilled from an alcoholic liquid or mash "often used in plural


Now study these different applications and utilize critical thinking skills as to which are applicable to attribute to the context of discussion.

A supernatural being, which of course, has never been shown to exist thus still making your entire post meaningless.

Is it your belief there is no God that is a spiritual supernatural being, or you don't know because you haven't been shown proof positive there is ?

Did you read what I wrote?

"A supernatural being ... has never been shown to exist"

Notice that nowhere did I say anything about what I believe?

Ok. I can tell your a booger eater and lack critical skills such as reading and comprehension, communication along with other vital skills...

It is evident I simply asked you a question about you belief, as a result of your statement, that did not state what you believe. I can no longer carry on a conversation with someone who does not demonstrate the use of a viable brain.

clearly you don't talk to yourself then...lol