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Proof That God Exists

PureX
Posts: 1,527
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10/9/2016 2:31:12 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Exists in what way? What does it mean for something to "exist"? And who is deciding what it means for something to "exist"?

Mathematics is a set of ideals that exist in our minds, through which we can define and understand our experience of being.

But does mathematics "exist"? Or does it just help us to understand existence?

Justice is an idea that we humans use to try and establish a sense of equilibrium within human interaction. But does justice "exist"? If so, can it be proven to exist?

"God" is an ideal, like mathematics, or justice. But do ideals exist? And how do we prove they exist beyond our own experience of them?
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?

That's what very few atheists ever consider.
Nac
Posts: 326
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10/9/2016 4:03:53 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 2:31:12 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Exists in what way? What does it mean for something to "exist"? And who is deciding what it means for something to "exist"?

Mathematics is a set of ideals that exist in our minds, through which we can define and understand our experience of being.

But does mathematics "exist"? Or does it just help us to understand existence?

Justice is an idea that we humans use to try and establish a sense of equilibrium within human interaction. But does justice "exist"? If so, can it be proven to exist?

"God" is an ideal, like mathematics, or justice. But do ideals exist? And how do we prove they exist beyond our own experience of them?

Are you saying that god is just a concept?
Nac
Posts: 326
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10/9/2016 4:13:25 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

What bearing does that have on the truth of the claim? The claims of an intelligent person are not exempt from criticism simply because the person is smart. In fact, I would say that the intelligence of a person comes under doubt when the cannot deal with criticism.

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

If there were actual evidence for the existence of a deity, we would, of course, analyze it. If it withstood the scrutiny of our society, we would accept the claim.

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?

Yes, but it is also possible that I am simply a brain in a jar. There are innumerable possibilities.

That's what very few atheists ever consider.
missmedic
Posts: 387
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10/9/2016 4:14:34 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?

That's what very few atheists ever consider.

God does not exist on proof of evidence but on belief and faith. And we all know faith is not proof and believing in something does not make it true. It does not matter how many people believe or for how many centuries they have believed it. It does not matter how reverent or important people think of them, if it does not agree with evidence, then it simply cannot have any validity to the outside world. All things we know about the world, we can express without referring to a belief.

"this alleged entity has no place in any scientific equations, plays no role in any scientific explanations, cannot be used to predict any events, does not describe any thing or force that has yet been detected, and there are no models of the universe in which its presence is either required, productive, or useful." ;.........By Austin Cline.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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10/9/2016 5:28:26 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 4:13:25 PM, Nac wrote:
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

What bearing does that have on the truth of the claim? The claims of an intelligent person are not exempt from criticism simply because the person is smart. In fact, I would say that the intelligence of a person comes under doubt when the cannot deal with criticism.

I was responding to Willow's question that's all, and no it has no bearing of the truth of the claim of course.

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

If there were actual evidence for the existence of a deity, we would, of course, analyze it. If it withstood the scrutiny of our society, we would accept the claim.

What bearing does the view of society have on the truth of the claim?

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?

Yes, but it is also possible that I am simply a brain in a jar. There are innumerable possibilities.

That's what very few atheists ever consider.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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10/9/2016 5:31:25 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 4:14:34 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?

That's what very few atheists ever consider.

God does not exist on proof of evidence but on belief and faith. And we all know faith is not proof and believing in something does not make it true. It does not matter how many people believe or for how many centuries they have believed it. It does not matter how reverent or important people think of them, if it does not agree with evidence, then it simply cannot have any validity to the outside world. All things we know about the world, we can express without referring to a belief.


I don't thing I agree with what you said above. Everything you claim to to know rests upon a belief (with the exception of the knowledge that you exist). Think of anything that you "know" and see if I'm wrong.

"this alleged entity has no place in any scientific equations, plays no role in any scientific explanations, cannot be used to predict any events, does not describe any thing or force that has yet been detected, and there are no models of the universe in which its presence is either required, productive, or useful." ;.........By Austin Cline.
missmedic
Posts: 387
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10/9/2016 6:06:19 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 5:31:25 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 4:14:34 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?

That's what very few atheists ever consider.

God does not exist on proof of evidence but on belief and faith. And we all know faith is not proof and believing in something does not make it true. It does not matter how many people believe or for how many centuries they have believed it. It does not matter how reverent or important people think of them, if it does not agree with evidence, then it simply cannot have any validity to the outside world. All things we know about the world, we can express without referring to a belief.


I don't thing I agree with what you said above. Everything you claim to to know rests upon a belief (with the exception of the knowledge that you exist). Think of anything that you "know" and see if I'm wrong.

I am talking about the ownership of belief and how believers make claims of knowledge based on belief. And how they despise people that do not share their beliefs. Many people, especially children, can't disown beliefs simply because they do not possess enough knowledge, curiosity, or skepticism to live without them. To replace our thoughts with intransigent beliefs belies the very nature of the very creative thinking process which keeps us alive.

"this alleged entity has no place in any scientific equations, plays no role in any scientific explanations, cannot be used to predict any events, does not describe any thing or force that has yet been detected, and there are no models of the universe in which its presence is either required, productive, or useful." ;.........By Austin Cline.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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10/9/2016 6:13:34 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 6:06:19 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 5:31:25 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 4:14:34 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?

That's what very few atheists ever consider.

God does not exist on proof of evidence but on belief and faith. And we all know faith is not proof and believing in something does not make it true. It does not matter how many people believe or for how many centuries they have believed it. It does not matter how reverent or important people think of them, if it does not agree with evidence, then it simply cannot have any validity to the outside world. All things we know about the world, we can express without referring to a belief.


I don't thing I agree with what you said above. Everything you claim to to know rests upon a belief (with the exception of the knowledge that you exist). Think of anything that you "know" and see if I'm wrong.

I am talking about the ownership of belief and how believers make claims of knowledge based on belief. And how they despise people that do not share their beliefs. Many people, especially children, can't disown beliefs simply because they do not possess enough knowledge, curiosity, or skepticism to live without them. To replace our thoughts with intransigent beliefs belies the very nature of the very creative thinking process which keeps us alive.

But every one is a "believer" in something, there are things you regard as true ipso facto like the universe is huge and has existed for billions of years, you (presumably) believe that but only because you place faith in others not because you've spent a lifetime poring over data, observations, theories, mathematics etc.

So if all beliefs are ultimately based on faith why single out belief in God as somehow different or less justifiable?
Nac
Posts: 326
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10/9/2016 6:57:48 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 5:28:26 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 4:13:25 PM, Nac wrote:
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

What bearing does that have on the truth of the claim? The claims of an intelligent person are not exempt from criticism simply because the person is smart. In fact, I would say that the intelligence of a person comes under doubt when the cannot deal with criticism.

I was responding to Willow's question that's all, and no it has no bearing of the truth of the claim of course.

Were you just attempting to establish that some people do believe that there is evidence to make the claim look more palatable?

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

If there were actual evidence for the existence of a deity, we would, of course, analyze it. If it withstood the scrutiny of our society, we would accept the claim.

What bearing does the view of society have on the truth of the claim?

Not the view, the scrutiny. I am meaning this in the same way we believe scientific claims. Scientific claims are not 100%, but they withstand the test of time, so to speak. They fit with the evidence that we have.

If we were to apply the more rigorous standard of knowledge, as in a "true, justified, belief," then I am unsure that we would ever be able to say that we have knowledge. So I wanted to apply the more lax standard that we have for science.

Thanks for pointing out that I said society, though. Since it is a claim about the way that the world operates, I think science would be the relevant field.

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?

Yes, but it is also possible that I am simply a brain in a jar. There are innumerable possibilities.

That's what very few atheists ever consider.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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10/9/2016 7:08:20 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 6:57:48 PM, Nac wrote:
At 10/9/2016 5:28:26 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 4:13:25 PM, Nac wrote:
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

What bearing does that have on the truth of the claim? The claims of an intelligent person are not exempt from criticism simply because the person is smart. In fact, I would say that the intelligence of a person comes under doubt when the cannot deal with criticism.

I was responding to Willow's question that's all, and no it has no bearing of the truth of the claim of course.

Were you just attempting to establish that some people do believe that there is evidence to make the claim look more palatable?

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

If there were actual evidence for the existence of a deity, we would, of course, analyze it. If it withstood the scrutiny of our society, we would accept the claim.

What bearing does the view of society have on the truth of the claim?

Not the view, the scrutiny. I am meaning this in the same way we believe scientific claims. Scientific claims are not 100%, but they withstand the test of time, so to speak. They fit with the evidence that we have.

Yes but after scrutiny one forms a view an opinion. When I said "Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians" you responded "What bearing does that have on the truth of the claim?".

I am merely responding with the same question when you say "If it withstood the scrutiny of our society.", what bearing does the opinion of "society" have in the truth of the claim? the answer must likewise be "none", yes?


If we were to apply the more rigorous standard of knowledge, as in a "true, justified, belief," then I am unsure that we would ever be able to say that we have knowledge. So I wanted to apply the more lax standard that we have for science.

Thanks for pointing out that I said society, though. Since it is a claim about the way that the world operates, I think science would be the relevant field.

Well you're welcome, it seems to me that the majority of people I know place trust in others and base their beliefs on what others say. If a credible, educated, prominent scientist says "there's no evidence that evolution did not take place" then people - without any detailed research or cross checking - take their word for it and without further ado say to themselves "OK, I'm gonna believe that" - and that's pretty much what happens, pretty much everyone with an opinion on this or that bases their upon - ultimately - on their trust - their faith - on others.

This is as true of atheists as it is of theists - IMHO.
Looncall
Posts: 454
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10/9/2016 7:17:12 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 6:13:34 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 6:06:19 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 5:31:25 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 4:14:34 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?

That's what very few atheists ever consider.

God does not exist on proof of evidence but on belief and faith. And we all know faith is not proof and believing in something does not make it true. It does not matter how many people believe or for how many centuries they have believed it. It does not matter how reverent or important people think of them, if it does not agree with evidence, then it simply cannot have any validity to the outside world. All things we know about the world, we can express without referring to a belief.


I don't thing I agree with what you said above. Everything you claim to to know rests upon a belief (with the exception of the knowledge that you exist). Think of anything that you "know" and see if I'm wrong.

I am talking about the ownership of belief and how believers make claims of knowledge based on belief. And how they despise people that do not share their beliefs. Many people, especially children, can't disown beliefs simply because they do not possess enough knowledge, curiosity, or skepticism to live without them. To replace our thoughts with intransigent beliefs belies the very nature of the very creative thinking process which keeps us alive.

But every one is a "believer" in something, there are things you regard as true ipso facto like the universe is huge and has existed for billions of years, you (presumably) believe that but only because you place faith in others not because you've spent a lifetime poring over data, observations, theories, mathematics etc.

So if all beliefs are ultimately based on faith why single out belief in God as somehow different or less justifiable?

I could undertake those studies and verify the results. With religion, there is no means of verifying the truth of propositions (see my signature :)).

That is the big difference between science and religion.
The metaphysicist has no laboratory.
MasonicSlayer
Posts: 2,308
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10/9/2016 7:39:13 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
The only thing the atheist has, is faith in a belief that gods or God or both, are of no existence in the Universe. The atheist believes in science, when it suites the survival of the evolution of the ego, which somehow has manipulated itself into believing the life to its narrow view evolved from the lifelessness of a rock. The atheist holds high the speculations of science to stay grounded. Yet the science of this day has each day become closer towards the phantasmal array of quantum additions that, necessary to surpass the event horizon of an unknown mathematical calculation, it is to say the Theory of Everything has always existed. An evolution in mathematics is impossible. An answer to everything was born the second of the Big Bang. What we are witnessing is the undressing of the Truth. The truths known thus far, are supporting theories of a multidimensional Universe. The quantum mathematics are showing eleven dimensions with two dimensions needed to create one dimension, thus totaling 9 dimensions. There are realms within realms, yet one realm has yet to be discovered. And the atheist knows everything. The atheist knows we live in the third dimensions. The atheist knows we live on the third planet from the sun. Coincidence? That's what the atheist would have to say. With nine dimensions and nine planets orbiting the sun, the esoteric thinker might suggest this to be no coincidence. Our solar system could very well be a micro replication of the entire Universe in all its dimensions.

This dimension - the third dimension - is called the material world of the physical, but the atom is made of empty space. The chair you're sitting on and the computer you're typing on does not exist. Life it seems, as the science would say, is in fact an illusion. Religion explains why life is an illusion. I would suggest you look into it with an open mind. As an atheist my mind was once closed to possibilities to unworldly to fathom. Until the day I closed my eyes to the illusions around, and opened the one eye deep inside that opened the doorway to absolutes. I cannot prove there is a God, because God does not want to be proven. To prove something as large as God, is to define Him, confine Him, thus making Him less than what He is. God is everything and God is nothing. Only a humble God can be so brave to exist within the grace, without a need to be exalted. He will love you whether or not His love is returned. This is my proof.

My proof for the existence of God, is proof that was given to me. It came from an undeniable experience profound enough to have never escaped a day since for remembrance. The nostalgia of such a memory well incised comes from witnessing the power of divine love that came at a time in my life that teetered between theosophical uncertainties. There the Holy Spirit hovered above my call for help, at a time when real help was needed. God has a way with always giving us what we need, not with what we want. So here I was, borderlined to atheism, a nonpraying unthankful punk in real trouble. My unworldly troubles were each day compounding to exponentially hitting the brink of extreme danger. My girlfriend suggested I pray. I prayed. The next night the Holy Spirit manifested Itself to handle the issues of the demons plaguing my life. These demons were no match for the power of pure love radiating outwards of this Orb. The demons never came back after that unforgettable night.
Looncall
Posts: 454
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10/9/2016 7:48:31 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 7:39:13 PM, MasonicSlayer wrote:
The only thing the atheist has, is faith in a belief that gods or God or both, are of no existence in the Universe. The atheist believes in science, when it suites the survival of the evolution of the ego, which somehow has manipulated itself into believing the life to its narrow view evolved from the lifelessness of a rock. The atheist holds high the speculations of science to stay grounded. Yet the science of this day has each day become closer towards the phantasmal array of quantum additions that, necessary to surpass the event horizon of an unknown mathematical calculation, it is to say the Theory of Everything has always existed. An evolution in mathematics is impossible. An answer to everything was born the second of the Big Bang. What we are witnessing is the undressing of the Truth. The truths known thus far, are supporting theories of a multidimensional Universe. The quantum mathematics are showing eleven dimensions with two dimensions needed to create one dimension, thus totaling 9 dimensions. There are realms within realms, yet one realm has yet to be discovered. And the atheist knows everything. The atheist knows we live in the third dimensions. The atheist knows we live on the third planet from the sun. Coincidence? That's what the atheist would have to say. With nine dimensions and nine planets orbiting the sun, the esoteric thinker might suggest this to be no coincidence. Our solar system could very well be a micro replication of the entire Universe in all its dimensions.

This dimension - the third dimension - is called the material world of the physical, but the atom is made of empty space. The chair you're sitting on and the computer you're typing on does not exist. Life it seems, as the science would say, is in fact an illusion. Religion explains why life is an illusion. I would suggest you look into it with an open mind. As an atheist my mind was once closed to possibilities to unworldly to fathom. Until the day I closed my eyes to the illusions around, and opened the one eye deep inside that opened the doorway to absolutes. I cannot prove there is a God, because God does not want to be proven. To prove something as large as God, is to define Him, confine Him, thus making Him less than what He is. God is everything and God is nothing. Only a humble God can be so brave to exist within the grace, without a need to be exalted. He will love you whether or not His love is returned. This is my proof.

My proof for the existence of God, is proof that was given to me. It came from an undeniable experience profound enough to have never escaped a day since for remembrance. The nostalgia of such a memory well incised comes from witnessing the power of divine love that came at a time in my life that teetered between theosophical uncertainties. There the Holy Spirit hovered above my call for help, at a time when real help was needed. God has a way with always giving us what we need, not with what we want. So here I was, borderlined to atheism, a nonpraying unthankful punk in real trouble. My unworldly troubles were each day compounding to exponentially hitting the brink of extreme danger. My girlfriend suggested I pray. I prayed. The next night the Holy Spirit manifested Itself to handle the issues of the demons plaguing my life. These demons were no match for the power of pure love radiating outwards of this Orb. The demons never came back after that unforgettable night.

Ah, I see. It really is all in your head. That's what I thought all along. I am glad it was helpful for you, though.

By the way, flowery language does not make your account more respectable.
The metaphysicist has no laboratory.
12_13
Posts: 1,362
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10/9/2016 8:00:46 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Maybe there is, for example by this:

If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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10/9/2016 8:08:24 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 7:17:12 PM, Looncall wrote:
At 10/9/2016 6:13:34 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 6:06:19 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 5:31:25 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 4:14:34 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?

That's what very few atheists ever consider.

God does not exist on proof of evidence but on belief and faith. And we all know faith is not proof and believing in something does not make it true. It does not matter how many people believe or for how many centuries they have believed it. It does not matter how reverent or important people think of them, if it does not agree with evidence, then it simply cannot have any validity to the outside world. All things we know about the world, we can express without referring to a belief.


I don't thing I agree with what you said above. Everything you claim to to know rests upon a belief (with the exception of the knowledge that you exist). Think of anything that you "know" and see if I'm wrong.

I am talking about the ownership of belief and how believers make claims of knowledge based on belief. And how they despise people that do not share their beliefs. Many people, especially children, can't disown beliefs simply because they do not possess enough knowledge, curiosity, or skepticism to live without them. To replace our thoughts with intransigent beliefs belies the very nature of the very creative thinking process which keeps us alive.

But every one is a "believer" in something, there are things you regard as true ipso facto like the universe is huge and has existed for billions of years, you (presumably) believe that but only because you place faith in others not because you've spent a lifetime poring over data, observations, theories, mathematics etc.

So if all beliefs are ultimately based on faith why single out belief in God as somehow different or less justifiable?

I could undertake those studies and verify the results. With religion, there is no means of verifying the truth of propositions (see my signature :)).


You can't undertake any studies without a starting point, a preexisting belief system. Science for example assumes - without proof - that the universe is governed by laws, that those laws can be expressed mathematically. It assumes - without proof - that the universe was not created 100, 000 years ago with an appearance of being much older, it assumes that the laws tomorrow will be the same as they are today - without proof.

Science is not wrong to do this but it is wrong to pretend it doesn't do this.

So do you or do you not object to a belief in things that themselves cannot be proven?

Yes or no.
MasonicSlayer
Posts: 2,308
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10/9/2016 8:09:14 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 7:48:31 PM, Looncall wrote:
At 10/9/2016 7:39:13 PM, MasonicSlayer wrote:
The only thing the atheist has, is faith in a belief that gods or God or both, are of no existence in the Universe. The atheist believes in science, when it suites the survival of the evolution of the ego, which somehow has manipulated itself into believing the life to its narrow view evolved from the lifelessness of a rock. The atheist holds high the speculations of science to stay grounded. Yet the science of this day has each day become closer towards the phantasmal array of quantum additions that, necessary to surpass the event horizon of an unknown mathematical calculation, it is to say the Theory of Everything has always existed. An evolution in mathematics is impossible. An answer to everything was born the second of the Big Bang. What we are witnessing is the undressing of the Truth. The truths known thus far, are supporting theories of a multidimensional Universe. The quantum mathematics are showing eleven dimensions with two dimensions needed to create one dimension, thus totaling 9 dimensions. There are realms within realms, yet one realm has yet to be discovered. And the atheist knows everything. The atheist knows we live in the third dimensions. The atheist knows we live on the third planet from the sun. Coincidence? That's what the atheist would have to say. With nine dimensions and nine planets orbiting the sun, the esoteric thinker might suggest this to be no coincidence. Our solar system could very well be a micro replication of the entire Universe in all its dimensions.

This dimension - the third dimension - is called the material world of the physical, but the atom is made of empty space. The chair you're sitting on and the computer you're typing on does not exist. Life it seems, as the science would say, is in fact an illusion. Religion explains why life is an illusion. I would suggest you look into it with an open mind. As an atheist my mind was once closed to possibilities to unworldly to fathom. Until the day I closed my eyes to the illusions around, and opened the one eye deep inside that opened the doorway to absolutes. I cannot prove there is a God, because God does not want to be proven. To prove something as large as God, is to define Him, confine Him, thus making Him less than what He is. God is everything and God is nothing. Only a humble God can be so brave to exist within the grace, without a need to be exalted. He will love you whether or not His love is returned. This is my proof.

My proof for the existence of God, is proof that was given to me. It came from an undeniable experience profound enough to have never escaped a day since for remembrance. The nostalgia of such a memory well incised comes from witnessing the power of divine love that came at a time in my life that teetered between theosophical uncertainties. There the Holy Spirit hovered above my call for help, at a time when real help was needed. God has a way with always giving us what we need, not with what we want. So here I was, borderlined to atheism, a nonpraying unthankful punk in real trouble. My unworldly troubles were each day compounding to exponentially hitting the brink of extreme danger. My girlfriend suggested I pray. I prayed. The next night the Holy Spirit manifested Itself to handle the issues of the demons plaguing my life. These demons were no match for the power of pure love radiating outwards of this Orb. The demons never came back after that unforgettable night.

Ah, I see. It really is all in your head. That's what I thought all along. I am glad it was helpful for you, though.

By the way, flowery language does not make your account more respectable.

Define flowery language? I don't think you know the true definition of this word, with regards to grammatical integrity.
Looncall
Posts: 454
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10/9/2016 9:04:14 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 8:08:24 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 7:17:12 PM, Looncall wrote:
At 10/9/2016 6:13:34 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 6:06:19 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 5:31:25 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 4:14:34 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?

That's what very few atheists ever consider.

God does not exist on proof of evidence but on belief and faith. And we all know faith is not proof and believing in something does not make it true. It does not matter how many people believe or for how many centuries they have believed it. It does not matter how reverent or important people think of them, if it does not agree with evidence, then it simply cannot have any validity to the outside world. All things we know about the world, we can express without referring to a belief.


I don't thing I agree with what you said above. Everything you claim to to know rests upon a belief (with the exception of the knowledge that you exist). Think of anything that you "know" and see if I'm wrong.

I am talking about the ownership of belief and how believers make claims of knowledge based on belief. And how they despise people that do not share their beliefs. Many people, especially children, can't disown beliefs simply because they do not possess enough knowledge, curiosity, or skepticism to live without them. To replace our thoughts with intransigent beliefs belies the very nature of the very creative thinking process which keeps us alive.

But every one is a "believer" in something, there are things you regard as true ipso facto like the universe is huge and has existed for billions of years, you (presumably) believe that but only because you place faith in others not because you've spent a lifetime poring over data, observations, theories, mathematics etc.

So if all beliefs are ultimately based on faith why single out belief in God as somehow different or less justifiable?

I could undertake those studies and verify the results. With religion, there is no means of verifying the truth of propositions (see my signature :)).


You can't undertake any studies without a starting point, a preexisting belief system. Science for example assumes - without proof - that the universe is governed by laws, that those laws can be expressed mathematically. It assumes - without proof - that the universe was not created 100, 000 years ago with an appearance of being much older, it assumes that the laws tomorrow will be the same as they are today - without proof.

Science is not wrong to do this but it is wrong to pretend it doesn't do this.

So do you or do you not object to a belief in things that themselves cannot be proven?

Yes or no.

These things you call assumptions are conclusions derived from observation or reasonable expectations based on previous experience. Proof is for mathematics.

I object to belief not based on evidence.

Religionists are so accustomed to believing in fictions, without good reason, that they presume that everyone does so. It is not the case.
The metaphysicist has no laboratory.
Nac
Posts: 326
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10/10/2016 12:42:34 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 7:08:20 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 6:57:48 PM, Nac wrote:
At 10/9/2016 5:28:26 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 4:13:25 PM, Nac wrote:
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

What bearing does that have on the truth of the claim? The claims of an intelligent person are not exempt from criticism simply because the person is smart. In fact, I would say that the intelligence of a person comes under doubt when the cannot deal with criticism.

I was responding to Willow's question that's all, and no it has no bearing of the truth of the claim of course.

Were you just attempting to establish that some people do believe that there is evidence to make the claim look more palatable?

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

If there were actual evidence for the existence of a deity, we would, of course, analyze it. If it withstood the scrutiny of our society, we would accept the claim.

What bearing does the view of society have on the truth of the claim?

Not the view, the scrutiny. I am meaning this in the same way we believe scientific claims. Scientific claims are not 100%, but they withstand the test of time, so to speak. They fit with the evidence that we have.

Yes but after scrutiny one forms a view an opinion. When I said "Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians" you responded "What bearing does that have on the truth of the claim?".

I am merely responding with the same question when you say "If it withstood the scrutiny of our society.", what bearing does the opinion of "society" have in the truth of the claim? the answer must likewise be "none", yes?

It is the criticism that is relevant here, not the opinion itself. The reason that popular opinion does not determine veracity is that this criterion does not take into account the justification for the belief. The scrutiny I discuss would be holes poked in the theory, and if a theory explains what we see without having these criticisms stick, then we would accept it.

Another relevant difference is that my criterion implies that no one has lodged a strong criticism at the theory. If any criticism is strong enough, it will damage the theory. The absence of this provides a strong reason to accept the theory as a way of understanding the world. It is not a knowledge claim, though.

As I stated below, if we need a "true, justified belief" to accept, I am unsure if I could ever accept any claim. Hence, the justification becomes the explanatory nature of the theory and the inability of anyone to successfully criticize it. The second theory is the one relevant to veracity, so it is what I focused on.

My clarification that it is chiefly within the realm of science, to clarify, is simply because that is the likely place where the criticism will come from.


If we were to apply the more rigorous standard of knowledge, as in a "true, justified, belief," then I am unsure that we would ever be able to say that we have knowledge. So I wanted to apply the more lax standard that we have for science.

Thanks for pointing out that I said society, though. Since it is a claim about the way that the world operates, I think science would be the relevant field.

Well you're welcome, it seems to me that the majority of people I know place trust in others and base their beliefs on what others say. If a credible, educated, prominent scientist says "there's no evidence that evolution did not take place" then people - without any detailed research or cross checking - take their word for it and without further ado say to themselves "OK, I'm gonna believe that" - and that's pretty much what happens, pretty much everyone with an opinion on this or that bases their upon - ultimately - on their trust - their faith - on others.

This is as true of atheists as it is of theists - IMHO.
missmedic
Posts: 387
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10/10/2016 2:03:34 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 6:13:34 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 6:06:19 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 5:31:25 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 4:14:34 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?

That's what very few atheists ever consider.

God does not exist on proof of evidence but on belief and faith. And we all know faith is not proof and believing in something does not make it true. It does not matter how many people believe or for how many centuries they have believed it. It does not matter how reverent or important people think of them, if it does not agree with evidence, then it simply cannot have any validity to the outside world. All things we know about the world, we can express without referring to a belief.


I don't thing I agree with what you said above. Everything you claim to to know rests upon a belief (with the exception of the knowledge that you exist). Think of anything that you "know" and see if I'm wrong.

I am talking about the ownership of belief and how believers make claims of knowledge based on belief. And how they despise people that do not share their beliefs. Many people, especially children, can't disown beliefs simply because they do not possess enough knowledge, curiosity, or skepticism to live without them. To replace our thoughts with intransigent beliefs belies the very nature of the very creative thinking process which keeps us alive.

But every one is a "believer" in something, there are things you regard as true ipso facto like the universe is huge and has existed for billions of years, you (presumably) believe that but only because you place faith in others not because you've spent a lifetime poring over data, observations, theories, mathematics etc.

So if all beliefs are ultimately based on faith why single out belief in God as somehow different or less justifiable?

Many people confuse belief with faith. It's said that if you believe something, you must be taking it on faith. This is a denial of the fundamental distinction between reason and faith. It pretends that evidence for or against an idea is irrelevant.
Not all beliefs are based on faith, some are based on knowledge and grounded in reality. Experience and reason are the only ways to gain knowledge, and knowledge is knowledge about reality. To speak of knowledge that we don't understand is a contradiction in terms. So when a person claims to have supernatural knowledge, (like belief in a certain kind of god) then accepting that person's beliefs, it is not an act of reason. It is an act of faith.

Since gods are supernatural, they exist outside the bounds and laws of space and time. They can possess any of an infinite array of magical powers. Hence, there is no way to prove or disprove their reality. One might say: If gods exist, anything goes!
bulproof
Posts: 25,238
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10/10/2016 4:23:35 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 8:08:24 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 7:17:12 PM, Looncall wrote:
At 10/9/2016 6:13:34 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 6:06:19 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 5:31:25 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 4:14:34 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?

That's what very few atheists ever consider.

God does not exist on proof of evidence but on belief and faith. And we all know faith is not proof and believing in something does not make it true. It does not matter how many people believe or for how many centuries they have believed it. It does not matter how reverent or important people think of them, if it does not agree with evidence, then it simply cannot have any validity to the outside world. All things we know about the world, we can express without referring to a belief.


I don't thing I agree with what you said above. Everything you claim to to know rests upon a belief (with the exception of the knowledge that you exist). Think of anything that you "know" and see if I'm wrong.

I am talking about the ownership of belief and how believers make claims of knowledge based on belief. And how they despise people that do not share their beliefs. Many people, especially children, can't disown beliefs simply because they do not possess enough knowledge, curiosity, or skepticism to live without them. To replace our thoughts with intransigent beliefs belies the very nature of the very creative thinking process which keeps us alive.

But every one is a "believer" in something, there are things you regard as true ipso facto like the universe is huge and has existed for billions of years, you (presumably) believe that but only because you place faith in others not because you've spent a lifetime poring over data, observations, theories, mathematics etc.

So if all beliefs are ultimately based on faith why single out belief in God as somehow different or less justifiable?

I could undertake those studies and verify the results. With religion, there is no means of verifying the truth of propositions (see my signature :)).


You can't undertake any studies without a starting point, a preexisting belief system. Science for example assumes - without proof - that the universe is governed by laws, that those laws can be expressed mathematically. It assumes - without proof - that the universe was not created 100, 000 years ago with an appearance of being much older, it assumes that the laws tomorrow will be the same as they are today - without proof.

Science is not wrong to do this but it is wrong to pretend it doesn't do this.

So do you or do you not object to a belief in things that themselves cannot be proven?

Yes or no.
Why should we answer a question if we just believe a question was asked? Your sophistry is pathetic.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Willows
Posts: 2,056
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10/10/2016 5:51:41 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 8:00:46 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Maybe there is, for example by this:

If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:16-17

Such a quote in no way proves the existence of God.
Willows
Posts: 2,056
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10/10/2016 5:54:06 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 2:31:12 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Exists in what way? What does it mean for something to "exist"? And who is deciding what it means for something to "exist"?

Mathematics is a set of ideals that exist in our minds, through which we can define and understand our experience of being.

But does mathematics "exist"? Or does it just help us to understand existence?

Justice is an idea that we humans use to try and establish a sense of equilibrium within human interaction. But does justice "exist"? If so, can it be proven to exist?

"God" is an ideal, like mathematics, or justice. But do ideals exist? And how do we prove they exist beyond our own experience of them?

God does not exist and trying to shift the goal posts of definitions and common sense around proves nothing.
Willows
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10/10/2016 6:06:14 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

Someone's profession and numbers of people in no way prove God's existence. By the same token, "huge numbers" of people believe in Bigfoot but that in no way makes it a fact. Name one professional scientist who believes in God.

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

You tell me, you are the one who has the belief.

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?
Pure conjecture and another question. How about a simple answer.....what evidence is there?

That's what very few atheists ever consider.
Purely hypothetical. I am an atheist and I have considered that prospect, so far there has no verifiable evidence to even consider.
Willows
Posts: 2,056
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10/10/2016 6:15:26 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 6:13:34 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 6:06:19 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 5:31:25 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 4:14:34 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 10/9/2016 3:11:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

Huge numbers of people think there is, many being scientifically well educated, some of these being professional scientists and mathematicians.

Ask yourself this Willows - IF there really was some evidence that God existed, THEN how would we recognize that evidence? what might characterize such evidence? would we admit it was evidence or would we speculate and dismiss it?

Is it possible that there is lots of evidence but that we dismiss it for one reason or another?

That's what very few atheists ever consider.

God does not exist on proof of evidence but on belief and faith. And we all know faith is not proof and believing in something does not make it true. It does not matter how many people believe or for how many centuries they have believed it. It does not matter how reverent or important people think of them, if it does not agree with evidence, then it simply cannot have any validity to the outside world. All things we know about the world, we can express without referring to a belief.


I don't thing I agree with what you said above. Everything you claim to to know rests upon a belief (with the exception of the knowledge that you exist). Think of anything that you "know" and see if I'm wrong.

I am talking about the ownership of belief and how believers make claims of knowledge based on belief. And how they despise people that do not share their beliefs. Many people, especially children, can't disown beliefs simply because they do not possess enough knowledge, curiosity, or skepticism to live without them. To replace our thoughts with intransigent beliefs belies the very nature of the very creative thinking process which keeps us alive.

But every one is a "believer" in something, there are things you regard as true ipso facto like the universe is huge and has existed for billions of years, you (presumably) believe that but only because you place faith in others not because you've spent a lifetime poring over data, observations, theories, mathematics etc.

So if all beliefs are ultimately based on faith why single out belief in God as somehow different or less justifiable?

Come on now!! We can have beliefs that are supported by sound reasoning and solid evidence. We can have faith in someone's ability based on the facts we have of them.

Why single out God? because the belief is not supported by any reasoning nor solid evidence and there are no facts of God to form a belief.
Willows
Posts: 2,056
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10/10/2016 6:17:08 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/10/2016 5:55:36 AM, freekundli wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

There is god. He is creator of universe.

You are completely wrong, prove it?
Willows
Posts: 2,056
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10/10/2016 6:20:20 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/9/2016 8:09:14 PM, MasonicSlayer wrote:
At 10/9/2016 7:48:31 PM, Looncall wrote:
At 10/9/2016 7:39:13 PM, MasonicSlayer wrote:
The only thing the atheist has, is faith in a belief that gods or God or both, are of no existence in the Universe. The atheist believes in science, when it suites the survival of the evolution of the ego, which somehow has manipulated itself into believing the life to its narrow view evolved from the lifelessness of a rock. The atheist holds high the speculations of science to stay grounded. Yet the science of this day has each day become closer towards the phantasmal array of quantum additions that, necessary to surpass the event horizon of an unknown mathematical calculation, it is to say the Theory of Everything has always existed. An evolution in mathematics is impossible. An answer to everything was born the second of the Big Bang. What we are witnessing is the undressing of the Truth. The truths known thus far, are supporting theories of a multidimensional Universe. The quantum mathematics are showing eleven dimensions with two dimensions needed to create one dimension, thus totaling 9 dimensions. There are realms within realms, yet one realm has yet to be discovered. And the atheist knows everything. The atheist knows we live in the third dimensions. The atheist knows we live on the third planet from the sun. Coincidence? That's what the atheist would have to say. With nine dimensions and nine planets orbiting the sun, the esoteric thinker might suggest this to be no coincidence. Our solar system could very well be a micro replication of the entire Universe in all its dimensions.

This dimension - the third dimension - is called the material world of the physical, but the atom is made of empty space. The chair you're sitting on and the computer you're typing on does not exist. Life it seems, as the science would say, is in fact an illusion. Religion explains why life is an illusion. I would suggest you look into it with an open mind. As an atheist my mind was once closed to possibilities to unworldly to fathom. Until the day I closed my eyes to the illusions around, and opened the one eye deep inside that opened the doorway to absolutes. I cannot prove there is a God, because God does not want to be proven. To prove something as large as God, is to define Him, confine Him, thus making Him less than what He is. God is everything and God is nothing. Only a humble God can be so brave to exist within the grace, without a need to be exalted. He will love you whether or not His love is returned. This is my proof.

My proof for the existence of God, is proof that was given to me. It came from an undeniable experience profound enough to have never escaped a day since for remembrance. The nostalgia of such a memory well incised comes from witnessing the power of divine love that came at a time in my life that teetered between theosophical uncertainties. There the Holy Spirit hovered above my call for help, at a time when real help was needed. God has a way with always giving us what we need, not with what we want. So here I was, borderlined to atheism, a nonpraying unthankful punk in real trouble. My unworldly troubles were each day compounding to exponentially hitting the brink of extreme danger. My girlfriend suggested I pray. I prayed. The next night the Holy Spirit manifested Itself to handle the issues of the demons plaguing my life. These demons were no match for the power of pure love radiating outwards of this Orb. The demons never came back after that unforgettable night.

Ah, I see. It really is all in your head. That's what I thought all along. I am glad it was helpful for you, though.

By the way, flowery language does not make your account more respectable.

Define flowery language? I don't think you know the true definition of this word, with regards to grammatical integrity.

He was politely saying that you talk a load of crap.
janesix
Posts: 3,465
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10/10/2016 6:29:01 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/10/2016 6:17:08 AM, Willows wrote:
At 10/10/2016 5:55:36 AM, freekundli wrote:
At 10/9/2016 2:05:51 PM, Willows wrote:
Did you really think there is?

There is god. He is creator of universe.

You are completely wrong, prove it?

You are completely wrong. Prove it.