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Muhammad the Greatest: A Comparative Study

Fatihah
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1/16/2011 10:42:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Through my comparative study, I've noticed that of all religious people within history, none shares as big of a difference in point of view in character and merit amongst people than Muhammad. While muslims see Muhammad as the prophet of islam, a honest, decent, loving messenger of God, and the greatest example for humanity on the best way to live, many non-muslims see Muhammad as not only a false prophet, but attribute some of the most degrading and immoral characteristics and behavior to Muhammad. Such a completely different view of muslims.

I've analyzed the the qur'an and sunnah of Muhammad thoroughly and have seen nothing of the point of view that non-muslims share which makes me ask the question, "where do these differences come from?" Is Muhammad the greatest example of the best way to conduct ourselves? Let's have a discussion.
CosmicAlfonzo
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1/16/2011 10:55:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I actually have very little issue with the Ahmadiyya interpretation of the Koran.

Except for the usual problems I have with religion. Extraordinary claims that can't be proven. The requirement to believe things on faith rather than good reason. Plus, I find it to be, like most faiths, mind bogglingly arrogant.

Basically, I can't put my faith in something unless I genuinely believe it.

As for Mohammed himself, most people in modern society would consider something like his multiple marriages, especially the one to the very very under the age of consent Aisha vile enough to tarnish his entire character.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Mirza
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1/16/2011 11:05:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Most non-Muslims don't know much about him at all. They hear about marriage with multiple wives, a young female, wars, etc., and think that all of that is "outrageous." But there's no problem with Hugh Hefner. That's what's called shame and hypocrisy.

People also don't read about the history of the Islamic wars. They don't read about the history behind the verses where the Qur'an instructs the beloved Prophet to wage war. Then they avoid reading about the biography of the Prophet, how he spoke about the virtues of family ties, good conduct, treatment of poor people, treatment of animals, treatment of spouses, treatment of children, manners, morals, etcetera. They read what some criminals wrote about a man of highest level of humaneness instead of what the most authentic sources about him tell, and people who put decades of their lives into studying the life of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
CosmicAlfonzo
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1/16/2011 11:18:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 11:05:03 AM, Mirza wrote:
Most non-Muslims don't know much about him at all. They hear about marriage with multiple wives, a young female, wars, etc., and think that all of that is "outrageous." But there's no problem with Hugh Hefner. That's what's called shame and hypocrisy.


Woah, woah, first of all, plenty of people find a guy like Hugh Hefner reprehensible.

There is one important difference, Hugh Hefner isn't claiming to be a messenger of god. He isn't telling you how to live your life.

There isn't just one group of people who do not like Muhammad. There are people from many different walks and opinions that have a problem with him, for different reasons.

And Hugh Hefner isn't known to have sex with 9 year olds, which is a bit different than having consensual sex with of age women.

People also don't read about the history of the Islamic wars. They don't read about the history behind the verses where the Qur'an instructs the beloved Prophet to wage war. Then they avoid reading about the biography of the Prophet, how he spoke about the virtues of family ties, good conduct, treatment of poor people, treatment of animals, treatment of spouses, treatment of children, manners, morals, etcetera. They read what some criminals wrote about a man of highest level of humaneness instead of what the most authentic sources about him tell, and people who put decades of their lives into studying the life of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

While I could point out how there is good reason for non-muslims to not buy any of this stuff, even after reading the biographies, etc.. All of it, like I said, will mean nothing to the average member of modern society if Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Ore_Ele
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1/16/2011 11:21:48 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 11:05:03 AM, Mirza wrote:
Most non-Muslims don't know much about him at all. They hear about marriage with multiple wives, a young female, wars, etc., and think that all of that is "outrageous." But there's no problem with Hugh Hefner. That's what's called shame and hypocrisy.

Yeah, Hugh Hefner is a beacon of moral fiber to most christians, lol.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Fatihah
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1/16/2011 11:26:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 10:55:50 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I actually have very little issue with the Ahmadiyya interpretation of the Koran.

Except for the usual problems I have with religion. Extraordinary claims that can't be proven. The requirement to believe things on faith rather than good reason. Plus, I find it to be, like most faiths, mind bogglingly arrogant.

Basically, I can't put my faith in something unless I genuinely believe it.


As for Mohammed himself, most people in modern society would consider something like his multiple marriages, especially the one to the very very under the age of consent Aisha vile enough to tarnish his entire character.

Response: Yet in both the qur'an and sunnah, it is shown that the concept of more than one wife and the prophet's marriage to Aisha was both consensual and to serve the purpose of loving and protecting all women. These are attributes of great character, not a vile character. Thus calling it otherwise would be a reflection of a vile character of most people in modern society, not Muhammad (saw).
Mirza
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1/16/2011 11:28:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 11:18:26 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Woah, woah, first of all, plenty of people find a guy like Hugh Hefner reprehensible.
Yes, and?

There is one important difference, Hugh Hefner isn't claiming to be a messenger of god. He isn't telling you how to live your life.
No, which is why nobody should like him, by that logic. The beloved Prophet came with the best guidances. If people followed them properly, there would be more stability in the world. Not even Muslims follow his advices properly.

There isn't just one group of people who do not like Muhammad. There are people from many different walks and opinions that have a problem with him, for different reasons.
Yes, because they hate good people. That's no surprise to Muslims. We have been warned about that already.

And Hugh Hefner isn't known to have sex with 9 year olds, which is a bit different than having consensual sex with of age women.
And the beloved Prophet didn't have non-consensual sex. Books can be written to describe all the virtues of his marriage with Aisha (RA). Just because she was nine doesn't say much. Do you know even one of the reasons of the marriage, the cultural norms of the time, and when the beloved Prophet said that a person has the right to marry? Do you know e.g., that he said a female must accept marriage, so it is never forced upon her? A boy who has reached puberty can also marry an elderly woman if there are goods reasons for it.

So, try to answer my questions.

While I could point out how there is good reason for non-muslims to not buy any of this stuff, even after reading the biographies, etc..
Then don't buy it. At least don't claim arrogance and insult our Prophet based on ignorance. If you say he instigated unfair wars, married and molested a young girl, then come with your evidence. It's not you who shouldn't buy this "stuff," it's us Muslims who shouldn't buy your stuff. You're the one making baseless claims only because a marriage took place. Also, where are you to speak against fornication? Do you know how many young females are mistreated by their boyfriends today? I don't care if a 50-year-old man marries a young girl who has reached puberty if he will not bring sorrowful tears from her eyes, and mistreat her. If he can make her more happy than someone of her own age, kudos to him.

And your views on morality of marriage with young girls are: yours, not mine. It was immoral to drink wine if you were civilized. It was immoral to fornicate, adulterate, etc. Do you care about that now? I think not. Why do you care about a marriage full of wisdom that took place in times when the marriage was 100% normal?

All of it, like I said, will mean nothing to the average member of modern society if Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old.
Yes, "sex" is your only description of the marriage.
Mirza
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1/16/2011 11:29:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 11:21:48 AM, OreEle wrote:
At 1/16/2011 11:05:03 AM, Mirza wrote:
Most non-Muslims don't know much about him at all. They hear about marriage with multiple wives, a young female, wars, etc., and think that all of that is "outrageous." But there's no problem with Hugh Hefner. That's what's called shame and hypocrisy.

Yeah, Hugh Hefner is a beacon of moral fiber to most christians, lol.
Most Christians? Most Christians today seem to forget the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him). What is Hugh Hefner? A monstrous fornication. Do you know how many US citizens fornicate? Over 90% at one point or another. What are the majority? Christians. No, Christians are not against him. They couldn't care less.
CosmicAlfonzo
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1/16/2011 11:32:22 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I have nothing against polygamy.

However, you are going to have a real hard time justifying the whole Aisha thing to a non-muslim in contemporary society.

You can put forth what you think to be the most rational case, you can write a book about it, you can do whatever, but in the end, this is going to be your response...

"Dude... She was 9 years old"

Having sex with kids that young is probably the most reprehensible thing in western society. It is looked down on even by people who are locked up. In prison, people will nod their heads and go, "alright" if you say you've robbed a bank, or killed someone, but as soon as you say you porked an 11 year old... You are as good as dead.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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1/16/2011 11:34:17 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Mirza is apparently an idiot and thinks because I don't immediately believe his prophet, that means I am insulting him.

Yeah, good luck converting people with that attitude. Do you want this to be a serious discussion, or would you rather turn this into a flame war?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Mirza
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1/16/2011 11:36:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 11:32:22 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I have nothing against polygamy.

However, you are going to have a real hard time justifying the whole Aisha thing to a non-muslim in contemporary society.

You can put forth what you think to be the most rational case, you can write a book about it, you can do whatever, but in the end, this is going to be your response...

"Dude... She was 9 years old"

Having sex with kids that young is probably the most reprehensible thing in western society. It is looked down on even by people who are locked up. In prison, people will nod their heads and go, "alright" if you say you've robbed a bank, or killed someone, but as soon as you say you porked an 11 year old... You are as good as dead.
Yes, because the West extracts its morality from media hypes, not books of wisdom. Your analogy is never successful. What you describe is an act of molestation, hence imprisonment. If the laws changed for the better, and children who reached puberty got married, things could be better. A young girl could maybe have her life saved by a man she married. Why do we even think of "molestation"? Where's the molestation in a peaceful marriage where parents consent and the girl itself, or the boy? I don't care what the West says. The Western World is becoming hypocritical at highest level. Alcohol, fornication, drugs, adultery, etc etc etc., which actually kill many of our people, all of that is lovely. When we talk about a safe, peaceful marriage between a 13-year-old girl and a 30-year-old man who will hardly ever harm her or mistreat her, the blood starts boiling. Don't mention the West. Shame on its standards and what it has done to the world.
Mirza
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1/16/2011 11:39:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 11:34:17 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Mirza is apparently an idiot and thinks because I don't immediately believe his prophet, that means I am insulting him.
Did I say that? It's an insult when people call him a pedophile. Notice how I make my claim universal, not personal. I didn't say "you."
CosmicAlfonzo
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1/16/2011 11:44:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 11:36:46 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/16/2011 11:32:22 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I have nothing against polygamy.

However, you are going to have a real hard time justifying the whole Aisha thing to a non-muslim in contemporary society.

You can put forth what you think to be the most rational case, you can write a book about it, you can do whatever, but in the end, this is going to be your response...

"Dude... She was 9 years old"

Having sex with kids that young is probably the most reprehensible thing in western society. It is looked down on even by people who are locked up. In prison, people will nod their heads and go, "alright" if you say you've robbed a bank, or killed someone, but as soon as you say you porked an 11 year old... You are as good as dead.
Yes, because the West extracts its morality from media hypes, not books of wisdom. Your analogy is never successful. What you describe is an act of molestation, hence imprisonment. If the laws changed for the better, and children who reached puberty got married, things could be better. A young girl could maybe have her life saved by a man she married. Why do we even think of "molestation"? Where's the molestation in a peaceful marriage where parents consent and the girl itself, or the boy? I don't care what the West says. The Western World is becoming hypocritical at highest level. Alcohol, fornication, drugs, adultery, etc etc etc., which actually kill many of our people, all of that is lovely. When we talk about a safe, peaceful marriage between a 13-year-old girl and a 30-year-old man who will hardly ever harm her or mistreat her, the blood starts boiling. Don't mention the West. Shame on its standards and what it has done to the world.

You are so misinformed it is pathetic.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/16/2011 11:44:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 11:29:37 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/16/2011 11:21:48 AM, OreEle wrote:
At 1/16/2011 11:05:03 AM, Mirza wrote:
Most non-Muslims don't know much about him at all. They hear about marriage with multiple wives, a young female, wars, etc., and think that all of that is "outrageous." But there's no problem with Hugh Hefner. That's what's called shame and hypocrisy.

Yeah, Hugh Hefner is a beacon of moral fiber to most christians, lol.
Most Christians? Most Christians today seem to forget the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him).

Yes, most christians are imperfect and make mistakes, your point?

What is Hugh Hefner? A monstrous fornication. Do you know how many US citizens fornicate? Over 90% at one point or another.

Do you have a source for that statistic?

What are the majority? Christians. No, Christians are not against him. They couldn't care less.

Of course they could. They choose to fight the fights they think they can win, and "illegalizing masturbation" is not one of them. They often fight in their community by trying to remove adult shops and clubs and raise regulation to drive them out. One step at a time.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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1/16/2011 11:49:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 11:32:22 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I have nothing against polygamy.

However, you are going to have a real hard time justifying the whole Aisha thing to a non-muslim in contemporary society.

You can put forth what you think to be the most rational case, you can write a book about it, you can do whatever, but in the end, this is going to be your response...

"Dude... She was 9 years old"

Having sex with kids that young is probably the most reprehensible thing in western society. It is looked down on even by people who are locked up. In prison, people will nod their heads and go, "alright" if you say you've robbed a bank, or killed someone, but as soon as you say you porked an 11 year old... You are as good as dead.

Response: Yet no where in the qur'an or sunnah does it state that he had sex with Aisha when she was 9. The marriage contract was completed at the age of nine. Muhammad engaged in intercourse with Aisha after she reached puberty. So there is no issue or flaw in his character.
Mirza
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1/16/2011 11:53:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 11:44:45 AM, OreEle wrote:
Yes, most christians are imperfect and make mistakes, your point?
My point is that you can't say "Christians are against this and that." It's no longer possible to tell.

Do you have a source for that statistic?
http://www.soundvision.com... is one, and there are similar ones.

http://www.guttmacher.org... says,

"The new study uses data from several rounds of the federal National Survey of Family Growth to examine sexual behavior before marriage, and how it has changed over time. According to the analysis, by age 44, 99% of respondents had had sex, and 95% had done so before marriage. Even among those who abstained from sex until age 20 or older, 81% had had premarital sex by age 44."

Of course they could. They choose to fight the fights they think they can win, and "illegalizing masturbation" is not one of them.
Masturbation is not fornication.

They often fight in their community by trying to remove adult shops and clubs and raise regulation to drive them out. One step at a time.
No. It's not one step at a time. Most Christians in USA fornicate. I didn't say all do, nor that all support Hugh Hefner, but that generally, I don't think they care about him. That's shameful if they are attempting to demean the beloved Prophet, and then indulge in hypocrisy.
Mirza
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1/16/2011 11:55:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 11:44:40 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 1/16/2011 11:36:46 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/16/2011 11:32:22 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I have nothing against polygamy.

However, you are going to have a real hard time justifying the whole Aisha thing to a non-muslim in contemporary society.

You can put forth what you think to be the most rational case, you can write a book about it, you can do whatever, but in the end, this is going to be your response...

"Dude... She was 9 years old"

Having sex with kids that young is probably the most reprehensible thing in western society. It is looked down on even by people who are locked up. In prison, people will nod their heads and go, "alright" if you say you've robbed a bank, or killed someone, but as soon as you say you porked an 11 year old... You are as good as dead.
Yes, because the West extracts its morality from media hypes, not books of wisdom. Your analogy is never successful. What you describe is an act of molestation, hence imprisonment. If the laws changed for the better, and children who reached puberty got married, things could be better. A young girl could maybe have her life saved by a man she married. Why do we even think of "molestation"? Where's the molestation in a peaceful marriage where parents consent and the girl itself, or the boy? I don't care what the West says. The Western World is becoming hypocritical at highest level. Alcohol, fornication, drugs, adultery, etc etc etc., which actually kill many of our people, all of that is lovely. When we talk about a safe, peaceful marriage between a 13-year-old girl and a 30-year-old man who will hardly ever harm her or mistreat her, the blood starts boiling. Don't mention the West. Shame on its standards and what it has done to the world.


You are so misinformed it is pathetic.
How am I misinformed? I asked you to answer some questions. You speak of the Western standards. Fine, but you can't use them to attack Islam. Islamic standards have lasted more than those of any other religion, culture, mythology, or anything else. The Western standards are the biggest enemy of the West it seems.
bluesteel
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1/16/2011 12:07:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 11:36:46 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/16/2011 11:32:22 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I have nothing against polygamy.

However, you are going to have a real hard time justifying the whole Aisha thing to a non-muslim in contemporary society.

You can put forth what you think to be the most rational case, you can write a book about it, you can do whatever, but in the end, this is going to be your response...

"Dude... She was 9 years old"

Having sex with kids that young is probably the most reprehensible thing in western society. It is looked down on even by people who are locked up. In prison, people will nod their heads and go, "alright" if you say you've robbed a bank, or killed someone, but as soon as you say you porked an 11 year old... You are as good as dead.
Yes, because the West extracts its morality from media hypes, not books of wisdom. Your analogy is never successful. What you describe is an act of molestation, hence imprisonment. If the laws changed for the better, and children who reached puberty got married, things could be better. A young girl could maybe have her life saved by a man she married. Why do we even think of "molestation"? Where's the molestation in a peaceful marriage where parents consent and the girl itself, or the boy? I don't care what the West says. The Western World is becoming hypocritical at highest level. Alcohol, fornication, drugs, adultery, etc etc etc., which actually kill many of our people, all of that is lovely. When we talk about a safe, peaceful marriage between a 13-year-old girl and a 30-year-old man who will hardly ever harm her or mistreat her, the blood starts boiling. Don't mention the West. Shame on its standards and what it has done to the world.

Most girls don't consent. Something like 80% of marriages in Afghanistan, for example, are forced.

And girls aren't "its" Mirza - they're not inanimate objects. Here in the immoral West we use humanizing pronouns like "she."
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
CosmicAlfonzo
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1/16/2011 12:14:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm not attacking Islam, but you are too blinded by your own dumb passion and asinine generalizations that I don't see any point in taking this topic any further.

If you want to know why most people in the west have a negative image of Islam, it's because of people like you who make @sshats of themselves.

I have stated very little of my own opinion of Islam in this topic, very little of my own opinion of Muhammad in this topic. You have no idea what I think.

I leave this this post with my middle finger stretched high into the sky, because you are single handedly working to kill any intelligent discussion of this topic if you haven't done so already.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Ore_Ele
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1/16/2011 12:14:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 11:53:10 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 1/16/2011 11:44:45 AM, OreEle wrote:
Yes, most christians are imperfect and make mistakes, your point?
My point is that you can't say "Christians are against this and that." It's no longer possible to tell.

Then it is no longer possible to tell what they don't care about.


Do you have a source for that statistic?
http://www.soundvision.com... is one, and there are similar ones.

http://www.guttmacher.org... says,

"The new study uses data from several rounds of the federal National Survey of Family Growth to examine sexual behavior before marriage, and how it has changed over time. According to the analysis, by age 44, 99% of respondents had had sex, and 95% had done so before marriage. Even among those who abstained from sex until age 20 or older, 81% had had premarital sex by age 44."

lol, I just wanted you to goggle "christian fornication."


Of course they could. They choose to fight the fights they think they can win, and "illegalizing masturbation" is not one of them.
Masturbation is not fornication.

I keep forgetting the it is not included


They often fight in their community by trying to remove adult shops and clubs and raise regulation to drive them out. One step at a time.
No. It's not one step at a time. Most Christians in USA fornicate. I didn't say all do, nor that all support Hugh Hefner, but that generally, I don't think they care about him. That's shameful if they are attempting to demean the beloved Prophet, and then indulge in hypocrisy.

so some pre-marital sex makes them unqualified to point out pedophilia?
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Mirza
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1/16/2011 12:15:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 12:07:52 PM, bluesteel wrote:
Most girls don't consent. Something like 80% of marriages in Afghanistan, for example, are forced.
Afghanistan is a case for itself, and other Muslim countries are not always better in certain areas. I don't disagree with the fact that few countries represent true morality of Islam.

And girls aren't "its" Mirza - they're not inanimate objects. Here in the immoral West we use humanizing pronouns like "she."
There's no need to say that just because I made a typo.
Fatihah
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1/16/2011 12:15:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 12:07:52 PM, bluesteel wrote:


Most girls don't consent. Something like 80% of marriages in Afghanistan, for example, are forced.

Response: If they don't consent, then such marriages are not right. But in the case of Muhammad, the marriage was consentual and Muhammad is considered the best of men by Aisha herself. This again reflects the great character and example of Muhammad and gives no logical reasoning for non-Muslims to think otherwise.
CosmicAlfonzo
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1/16/2011 12:16:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
To make it clear, I was refering to Mirza.

Fatihah, you'd be doing this topic a great service if you told him to shut the hell up. hah
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Mirza
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1/16/2011 12:20:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 12:14:18 PM, OreEle wrote:
Then it is no longer possible to tell what they don't care about.
Unless we have statistics, which we do.

lol, I just wanted you to goggle "christian fornication."
There's no need for that. Over 75% of Americans are Christians. 95% of Americans fornicate. It is about 220,000,000 Christians fornicating.

I keep forgetting the it is not included
What do you mean?

so some pre-marital sex makes them unqualified to point out pedophilia?
No, the fornication statistics was an argument against something else.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/16/2011 12:22:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 12:16:57 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
To make it clear, I was refering to Mirza.

Fatihah, you'd be doing this topic a great service if you told him to shut the hell up. hah
If you don't want a discussion where you are asked to answer questions, you don't have to call someone an idiot. Is that cut and clear? I didn't call you and idiot, I didn't insult you, and you are just making things up. The English word "you" also means "one" and I used it in that context. You are not the West, so why are you insulted by my attack on the West?

Just stick to the topic and don't derail it. If you have a case then present it. Also, yes, you are misinforming people. You used words which make it look like the beloved Prophet just fornicated with tons of young girls.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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1/16/2011 12:31:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 12:16:57 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
To make it clear, I was refering to Mirza.

Fatihah, you'd be doing this topic a great service if you told him to shut the hell up. hah

Response: I wouldn't agree to telling anyone to shut up. However, the issue which is being brought up is what people of modern society claim is morally right or wrong and what is just yet at the same time such standards are hypocritical and contradicting. To have criticism of a consensual marriage to a young bride when she herself never claims to be molested and loves Muhammad as the best of men is odd and very irrational when the one criticising condones pornography, sex outside of marriage, and entertainment based on exploiting women sexually. The latter is clearly a reflection of bad character, not the former.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/16/2011 12:33:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
As far as I know, he had sex with one girl who is considered too young by most societies today.

All I'm saying is that you are going to have a VERY hard time justifying that to most people outside of the Muslim faith.

And you mistake the tolerance of what the majority in the west consider to be immoral character for the moral character of the west.

I doubt you'll find many people over here who will tell you that Adultery is an alright moral thing. While there might be plenty of people who enjoy the effects of intoxication, drunks don't tend to be looked highly on. I can go on. If anything, this is the most moral thing that one can do. Live and let die, let God, Allah, or whatever sort it out in the afterlife.

If you truly have faith in your religion, then have comfort in knowing that it is inevitable that the world comes to terms with it. If you are going to debate these things, establish understanding with the other person instead of spouting a bunch of ignorance and hatred.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/16/2011 12:33:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Muhammad's religious provenance is uncertain. The prophets of Judaeo-Christianity can all claim some form of consistent lineage. Even the contradiction laden Christ. What religion was Muhammad prior to his revelation from Gabriel? Perhaps it does not matter, but what always troubles me is that evasion with regards this?

My main objection is that Muhammad was a warlord, an Empire builder, a conquerer. So too were his successors. Muhammad therefore can be categorised along with Constantine, Charlemagne, Cortez, Ghengis, Hitler... simply a leader following his personal ambition. Not as a agent of the divine, or at least not as an agent of the divine that we should acknowledge.

It is not like Muhammad was some sort of pacifistic philosopher, whose message was hijacked by his inferior pupils. It is not as is Islam was ever in a state of purity, and became corrupted. Islam has produced good and bad, but it is has never been good enough.

There is not one single example of an Islamic society that is attractive to the eyes of a rational human being. Western culture, warts and all, is far far superior to the best examples of Islam.

I am certain that what I have said may caused offence, it is however my sincere opinion and to dress it up with euphenisms would insult the intelligence of the Muslims here.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/16/2011 12:37:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/16/2011 12:33:13 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
As far as I know, he had sex with one girl who is considered too young by most societies today.


Actually if you look at the evidence Aisha could not have been any younger than 14, that is all we know. She may have been 14, 16, 18, 20, or 48 (okay okay, she was not 48).

By any sensible definition, sex with a 14 year old is not paedophilia.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.