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do you think we are hard wired to believe??

janesix
Posts: 3,467
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10/14/2016 8:13:50 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

I don't think so. I was raised atheist and there was no reason to believe for me. I think we tend to believe what we are programmed to believe in early childhood.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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10/14/2016 8:30:34 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

Indoctrination, it's been going on for centuries.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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10/14/2016 8:44:15 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

Yes and no.

I am an alcoholic. I was "hardwired", genetically, to be very anxious and self-conscious in my normal sober 'default' state. But to experience a kind of euphoria when I drank, and the alcohol relieved me from all that self-conscious anxiety. So for me, the transition was huge, and extremely positive, like some magical elixir. And I fell in love with that euphoric feeing immediately. then I chased after that feeling every chance I got for the next 20 years.

I think that for a lot of people "God" becomes their "magic elixir" the way alcohol did for me. The concept they develop in their minds, of God, somehow comforts them, and quiets the storm of negative thoughts and emotions that otherwise trouble themas a regular condition. So they hold onto their God more and more intently, as time passes.

It's not that we are "hardwired to believe in God". It's more that we are hardwired to NEED to believe in something. And for a lot of people that something becomes their concept of God.
dee-em
Posts: 6,476
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10/14/2016 9:20:00 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

We are hard wired by evolution to be impressionable when young and automatically obey what authority figures (parents, elders) tell us. It had survival value since in a critical situation it could save a life where the child had no experience of a dangerous event (being near the edge of a cliff, approaching a wild animal, burning themselves in fire, etc.). This means that we tend to adopt our parents/elders overall beliefs without much critical thought. We usually follow the same sporting teams, vote for the same political parties and, yes, go to the same churches and have similar religious beliefs. None of this should be surprising.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,096
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10/14/2016 10:07:34 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 8:44:15 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

Yes and no.

I am an alcoholic. I was "hardwired", genetically, to be very anxious and self-conscious in my normal sober 'default' state. But to experience a kind of euphoria when I drank, and the alcohol relieved me from all that self-conscious anxiety. So for me, the transition was huge, and extremely positive, like some magical elixir. And I fell in love with that euphoric feeing immediately. then I chased after that feeling every chance I got for the next 20 years.

I think that for a lot of people "God" becomes their "magic elixir" the way alcohol did for me. The concept they develop in their minds, of God, somehow comforts them, and quiets the storm of negative thoughts and emotions that otherwise trouble themas a regular condition. So they hold onto their God more and more intently, as time passes.

It's not that we are "hardwired to believe in God". It's more that we are hardwired to NEED to believe in something. And for a lot of people that something becomes their concept of God.

great answer thank you...

so atheism is a rejection of the need or something else...??
graceofgod
Posts: 5,096
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10/14/2016 10:09:16 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 8:13:50 PM, janesix wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

I don't think so. I was raised atheist and there was no reason to believe for me. I think we tend to believe what we are programmed to believe in early childhood.

I know lots of believers who grew up in Christian families and lived the life, some continued, some moved away when they could..
I am the only one in my family with a faith, so some find there faith on their own...
janesix
Posts: 3,467
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10/14/2016 10:55:52 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 10:09:16 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:13:50 PM, janesix wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

I don't think so. I was raised atheist and there was no reason to believe for me. I think we tend to believe what we are programmed to believe in early childhood.

I know lots of believers who grew up in Christian families and lived the life, some continued, some moved away when they could..
I am the only one in my family with a faith, so some find there faith on their own...

I agree. I didnt start believing in god till i was 37. And im still not sure about it.
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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10/15/2016 6:24:37 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 10:07:34 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:44:15 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

Yes and no.

I am an alcoholic. I was "hardwired", genetically, to be very anxious and self-conscious in my normal sober 'default' state. But to experience a kind of euphoria when I drank, and the alcohol relieved me from all that self-conscious anxiety. So for me, the transition was huge, and extremely positive, like some magical elixir. And I fell in love with that euphoric feeing immediately. then I chased after that feeling every chance I got for the next 20 years.

I think that for a lot of people "God" becomes their "magic elixir" the way alcohol did for me. The concept they develop in their minds, of God, somehow comforts them, and quiets the storm of negative thoughts and emotions that otherwise trouble themas a regular condition. So they hold onto their God more and more intently, as time passes.

It's not that we are "hardwired to believe in God". It's more that we are hardwired to NEED to believe in something. And for a lot of people that something becomes their concept of God.

great answer thank you...

so atheism is a rejection of the need or something else...??

No it's the rejection of your unsupportable claim that gods exist.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
graceofgod
Posts: 5,096
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10/15/2016 7:24:15 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 10:55:52 PM, janesix wrote:
At 10/14/2016 10:09:16 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:13:50 PM, janesix wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

I don't think so. I was raised atheist and there was no reason to believe for me. I think we tend to believe what we are programmed to believe in early childhood.

I know lots of believers who grew up in Christian families and lived the life, some continued, some moved away when they could..
I am the only one in my family with a faith, so some find there faith on their own...

I agree. I didnt start believing in god till i was 37. And im still not sure about it.

I was a late starter too but i am convinced God exists... hope you find your feet in your faith...
tarantula
Posts: 859
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10/15/2016 7:37:20 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

The latter, imo. I am glad I lost my faith when I realised it was no longer credible.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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10/15/2016 7:45:06 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 8:44:15 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

Yes and no.

I am an alcoholic. I was "hardwired", genetically, to be very anxious and self-conscious in my normal sober 'default' state. But to experience a kind of euphoria when I drank, and the alcohol relieved me from all that self-conscious anxiety. So for me, the transition was huge, and extremely positive, like some magical elixir. And I fell in love with that euphoric feeing immediately. then I chased after that feeling every chance I got for the next 20 years.

I think that for a lot of people "God" becomes their "magic elixir" the way alcohol did for me. The concept they develop in their minds, of God, somehow comforts them, and quiets the storm of negative thoughts and emotions that otherwise trouble themas a regular condition. So they hold onto their God more and more intently, as time passes.

That's pretty much the concept of Alcoholics Anonymous. You trade a dependency on alcohol (or drugs) for their quack religion. Personally, I'd choose the dope. That (AA) is without a doubt the stupidest group of clowns I've ever run across - and the most dishonest - and the most deceitful. I told my state medical board that their "treatment" made the Scientologists and WatchTower look pretty damn credible by comparison.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
keithprosser
Posts: 2,042
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10/15/2016 7:59:16 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 9:20:00 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

We are hard wired by evolution to be impressionable when young and automatically obey what authority figures (parents, elders) tell us. It had survival value since in a critical situation it could save a life where the child had no experience of a dangerous event (being near the edge of a cliff, approaching a wild animal, burning themselves in fire, etc.). This means that we tend to adopt our parents/elders overall beliefs without much critical thought. We usually follow the same sporting teams, vote for the same political parties and, yes, go to the same churches and have similar religious beliefs. None of this should be surprising.

I agree with every word of that. But I would like to add that we are also hard-wired to theorise. Our success as a species derives in no small part from our abiity to notice patterns and reasons in our world. If we have a theory about something, it can suggest how we can exploit it. Without a theory, everything would appear entirely random, so there woud be no way to, say, plan a hunt or set traps.

Religious belief began as a theory of the world. Psychologically, humans are not content to leave things unexplained. Combined with what dee-em says above, it is nor surprising that early man invented anthropomorphic gods.
dee-em
Posts: 6,476
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10/15/2016 11:27:37 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/15/2016 7:59:16 AM, keithprosser wrote:
At 10/14/2016 9:20:00 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

We are hard wired by evolution to be impressionable when young and automatically obey what authority figures (parents, elders) tell us. It had survival value since in a critical situation it could save a life where the child had no experience of a dangerous event (being near the edge of a cliff, approaching a wild animal, burning themselves in fire, etc.). This means that we tend to adopt our parents/elders overall beliefs without much critical thought. We usually follow the same sporting teams, vote for the same political parties and, yes, go to the same churches and have similar religious beliefs. None of this should be surprising.

I agree with every word of that. But I would like to add that we are also hard-wired to theorise. Our success as a species derives in no small part from our abiity to notice patterns and reasons in our world. If we have a theory about something, it can suggest how we can exploit it. Without a theory, everything would appear entirely random, so there woud be no way to, say, plan a hunt or set traps.

Religious belief began as a theory of the world. Psychologically, humans are not content to leave things unexplained. Combined with what dee-em says above, it is nor surprising that early man invented anthropomorphic gods.

You've stolen my thunder, Keith. My next post, depending on how GoG responded, would have been something along these lines - humans being also hard-wired to attribute agency to phenomena and pattern match (again having obvious survival value) with the ultimate expression being an attempt to explain the world in its entirety. Well said.
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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10/15/2016 1:35:28 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/15/2016 7:45:06 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:44:15 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

Yes and no.

I am an alcoholic. I was "hardwired", genetically, to be very anxious and self-conscious in my normal sober 'default' state. But to experience a kind of euphoria when I drank, and the alcohol relieved me from all that self-conscious anxiety. So for me, the transition was huge, and extremely positive, like some magical elixir. And I fell in love with that euphoric feeing immediately. then I chased after that feeling every chance I got for the next 20 years.

I think that for a lot of people "God" becomes their "magic elixir" the way alcohol did for me. The concept they develop in their minds, of God, somehow comforts them, and quiets the storm of negative thoughts and emotions that otherwise trouble themas a regular condition. So they hold onto their God more and more intently, as time passes.

That's pretty much the concept of Alcoholics Anonymous. You trade a dependency on alcohol (or drugs) for their quack religion.

AA is not a religious entity. It neither endorses nor opposes any religion of religious doctrines. The way AA works is that it offers the experience, strength, and hope of recovering alcoholics to the those who are in need of recovery, to help them do what they are unable to do by themselves: recover from alcoholism. And by working through a process that has been established by the experience and practice of millions of previous alcoholics who have recovered their lives and happiness as sober beings, current alcoholics are able to recover, too. I know, as I am one of them. (Sober for 24 years)

And I am not a participant in any religion, nor have I been forced or encouraged to become religious by AA. I am an agnostic taoist that chooses to believe in the basic Christian principal that love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity expressed within us and through us to others, will help heal us and save us from ourselves. And will help to heal and save others, too. Not because AA says so, but because that has been my experience in life.

Personally, I'd choose the dope.

Then you are a fool. Because you will be destroying yourself and hurting everyone you love and that loves you, just because you are irrationally biased against religion. And because you have no idea what programs like AA and NA are doing for addicts and alcoholics.

That (AA) is without a doubt the stupidest group of clowns I've ever run across - and the most dishonest - and the most deceitful. I told my state medical board that their "treatment" made the Scientologists and WatchTower look pretty damn credible by comparison.

It's sad that you are this ignorant, biased, and angry. Hopefully, you are not an alcoholic or addict, and so will not be harmed by all that ignorance and bile.
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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10/15/2016 1:40:45 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 10:07:34 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:44:15 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

Yes and no.

I am an alcoholic. I was "hardwired", genetically, to be very anxious and self-conscious in my normal sober 'default' state. But to experience a kind of euphoria when I drank, and the alcohol relieved me from all that self-conscious anxiety. So for me, the transition was huge, and extremely positive, like some magical elixir. And I fell in love with that euphoric feeing immediately. then I chased after that feeling every chance I got for the next 20 years.

I think that for a lot of people "God" becomes their "magic elixir" the way alcohol did for me. The concept they develop in their minds, of God, somehow comforts them, and quiets the storm of negative thoughts and emotions that otherwise trouble themas a regular condition. So they hold onto their God more and more intently, as time passes.

It's not that we are "hardwired to believe in God". It's more that we are hardwired to NEED to believe in something. And for a lot of people that something becomes their concept of God.

great answer thank you...

so atheism is a rejection of the need or something else"??

Just a rejection of the idea of "God" as a way of filling that need. I think we all need a kind of fulfillment that material reality cannot offer us. But we don't all choose the 'god-ideal' as our way of achieving that fulfillment.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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10/15/2016 3:03:57 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/15/2016 1:35:28 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/15/2016 7:45:06 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:44:15 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

Yes and no.

I am an alcoholic. I was "hardwired", genetically, to be very anxious and self-conscious in my normal sober 'default' state. But to experience a kind of euphoria when I drank, and the alcohol relieved me from all that self-conscious anxiety. So for me, the transition was huge, and extremely positive, like some magical elixir. And I fell in love with that euphoric feeing immediately. then I chased after that feeling every chance I got for the next 20 years.

I think that for a lot of people "God" becomes their "magic elixir" the way alcohol did for me. The concept they develop in their minds, of God, somehow comforts them, and quiets the storm of negative thoughts and emotions that otherwise trouble themas a regular condition. So they hold onto their God more and more intently, as time passes.

That's pretty much the concept of Alcoholics Anonymous. You trade a dependency on alcohol (or drugs) for their quack religion.

AA is not a religious entity. It neither endorses nor opposes any religion of religious doctrines.

Oh, yes it is - and every court that has examined the "program" comes to the same conclusion.

The way AA works ...

WORKS? Works for what? It certainly doesn't "work" as far as reducing or eliminating mind-altering substance use/abuse.

is that it offers the experience, strength, and hope of recovering alcoholics to the those who are in need of recovery, to help them do what they are unable to do by themselves: recover from alcoholism. And by working through a process that has been established by the experience and practice of millions of previous alcoholics who have recovered their lives and happiness as sober beings, current alcoholics are able to recover, too. I know, as I am one of them. (Sober for 24 years)

I couldn't care less for your "testimonial" - or my own either, for that matter.

And I am not a participant in any religion, nor have I been forced or encouraged to become religious by AA.

Then how in the world did you "work the program" by praying the 7th Step Prayer?

My Creator,

I am now willing that You should have all of me,
good and bad. I pray that You now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to You and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do Your bidding.

Amen


Personally, I'd choose the dope.

Then you are a fool. Because you will be destroying yourself and hurting everyone you love and that loves you, just because you are irrationally biased against religion.

I have no bias against religion. I am a Christian, after all. I have a bias against a fruitcake group whose very founder claimed, "I knew my past was forgiven, and my future was secure" because he thought he "saw God" while he was in DT's and drugged up on hallucinogens.

And because you have no idea what programs like AA and NA are doing for addicts and alcoholics.

Yes, I do. I lost everything by refusing to participate in their nonsense.

That (AA) is without a doubt the stupidest group of clowns I've ever run across - and the most dishonest - and the most deceitful. I told my state medical board that their "treatment" made the Scientologists and WatchTower look pretty damn credible by comparison.

It's sad that you are this ignorant, biased, and angry. Hopefully, you are not an alcoholic or addict, and so will not be harmed by all that ignorance and bile.

Tell ya what, dude. Why don't you produce for us just ONE peer-reviewed study, with controls and statistical analysis, that demonstrates that AA or NA reduce or eliminate drug consumption, including the drug alcohol? A number of them have been conducted. Heck, the Cochran Foundation even did a "study" of the "studies". They looked at about 3,500 people. Their conclusion? "No experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA or TSF approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or problems."

As far as me, I was dependent on hydrocodone for several years, a very functional addict. I weaned off of it with Methadone over a two-month period. That was six or seven years ago. I've been drug-free ever since. That was that. Yet I have been diagnosed as an "incurable addict" by the 12-step tards, an addict whose "disease" can only be kept at bay by attending their meetings. I can promise you: all of that "serenity" flies out the door fast when one tells the powers-that-be (on the state level) that their little "system" which consists of "program" does not work as far as its implied purpose.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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10/15/2016 5:31:48 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/15/2016 3:03:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/15/2016 1:35:28 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/15/2016 7:45:06 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:44:15 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

Yes and no.

I am an alcoholic. I was "hardwired", genetically, to be very anxious and self-conscious in my normal sober 'default' state. But to experience a kind of euphoria when I drank, and the alcohol relieved me from all that self-conscious anxiety. So for me, the transition was huge, and extremely positive, like some magical elixir. And I fell in love with that euphoric feeing immediately. then I chased after that feeling every chance I got for the next 20 years.

I think that for a lot of people "God" becomes their "magic elixir" the way alcohol did for me. The concept they develop in their minds, of God, somehow comforts them, and quiets the storm of negative thoughts and emotions that otherwise trouble themas a regular condition. So they hold onto their God more and more intently, as time passes.

That's pretty much the concept of Alcoholics Anonymous. You trade a dependency on alcohol (or drugs) for their quack religion.

AA is not a religious entity. It neither endorses nor opposes any religion of religious doctrines.

Oh, yes it is - and every court that has examined the "program" comes to the same conclusion.

At the beginning of every AA meeting, all over the world, they read preamble that states: "Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help other to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self supporting through our own contributions. AA is not alllied with any sect, denomination or politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and to help other alcoholics acheive sobriety."

Many members of AA are agnostic and atheist. There are even "quad A" meetings (atheist agnostic alcoholics anonymous) wherein the use of the term "God" in not to be used.

WORKS? Works for what? It certainly doesn't "work" as far as reducing or eliminating mind-altering substance use/abuse.

Millions of men and women all over the world have successfully recovered with the help of AA. In fact, AA has the highest recovery rate of all the various methods of addiction recovery, and is endorsed and copied by most of them. Except that AA is completely free of charge, while the others charge money, and often a lot of it.

is that it offers the experience, strength, and hope of recovering alcoholics to the those who are in need of recovery, to help them do what they are unable to do by themselves: recover from alcoholism. And by working through a process that has been established by the experience and practice of millions of previous alcoholics who have recovered their lives and happiness as sober beings, current alcoholics are able to recover, too. I know, as I am one of them. (Sober for 24 years)

I couldn't care less for your "testimonial" - or my own either, for that matter.

That's a shame, because addiction is a terrible disease that not only slowly guts the addict physically and emotionally, but causes them to destroy their relationships with everyone they love, and everyone that loves them. The majority of addicts and alcoholics will never seek any help for their sickness, at all. And they will die in their disease. And of the few that do seek help, many of them will not be able to break the cycle of self abuse. So that the few that programs like AA can save, are especially important. Because they show the others that there is hope. And that addiction can be overcome.

And I am not a participant in any religion, nor have I been forced or encouraged to become religious by AA.

Then how in the world did you "work the program" by praying the 7th Step Prayer?

The "Higher Power" in AA refers to that power greater than ourselves, that we need to overcome our addiction to drinking, because we have discovered that our own willpower will not do it. We must have a power greater than our own to help us.

For most AA members this "higher power" is the group. And is often their sponsor, who have managed to do what the individual alcoholic cannot: get and stay sober. And "prayer" can refer to all sorts of ways of accessing that "higher power". I almost never prayed in early recovery. But I spent a lot of time pacing, and rocking back and forth holding my dog, and repeating phrases over and over and over. Anything that would override the maniac in my head that was always screaming for a drink.

My Creator,

I am now willing that You should have all of me,
good and bad. I pray that You now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to You and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do Your bidding.

Amen

The text from which this comes was written by the alcoholics of the time. I think around the 1940s, when such generally spiritual terms were not a hot-button issue for anyone. And they remain in the book mostly as part of the tradition. But any individual working this step will be encouraged by their sponsor to interpret it in whatever way makes sense to them. There are many atheists and agnostics in AA.

I have no bias against religion. I am a Christian, after all. I have a bias against a fruitcake group whose very founder claimed, "I knew my past was forgiven, and my future was secure" because he thought he "saw God" while he was in DT's and drugged up on hallucinogens.

You are clearly working very hard at finding ways to discredit a program that you do not understand, and have not actually experienced via participation. You appear to think that AA presents itself as an alternative to your religion. And so resent it greatly.

Tell ya what, dude. Why don't you produce for us just ONE peer-reviewed study, with controls and statistical analysis, that demonstrates that AA or NA reduce or eliminate drug consumption, including the drug alcohol?

What does any of this have to do with "drug consumption"? AA is not trying to minimize drug or alcohol consumption. It's trying to help addicts and alcoholic get and stay sober so that they can recover their lives. That's it. Nothing more. They aren't "saving souls" or "preaching gospels" or even making money.

As far as me, I was dependent on hydrocodone for several years, a very functional addict. I weaned off of it with Methadone over a two-month period. That was six or seven years ago. I've been drug-free ever since. That was that. Yet I have been diagnosed as an "incurable addict" by the 12-step tards, an addict whose "disease" can only be kept at bay by attending their meetings.

You are pretty clearly what AA refers to as a "dry drunk". You stopped using your drug of choice, but you did nothing to recover your sanity or serenity. You did not work the steps sufficiently to learn how to let go of the fear and anger and resentment that fueled your drug use. And this is plain to see just from your last few posts. Your resentment of AA is wildly disproportional.
annanicole
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10/15/2016 6:16:23 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/15/2016 5:31:48 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/15/2016 3:03:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/15/2016 1:35:28 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/15/2016 7:45:06 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:44:15 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:

AA is not a religious entity. It neither endorses nor opposes any religion of religious doctrines.

Oh, yes it is - and every court that has examined the "program" comes to the same conclusion.

At the beginning of every AA meeting, all over the world, they read preamble that states: "Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help other to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self supporting through our own contributions. AA is not alllied with any sect, denomination or politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and to help other alcoholics acheive sobriety."

Many members of AA are agnostic and atheist. There are even "quad A" meetings (atheist agnostic alcoholics anonymous) wherein the use of the term "God" in not to be used.

I repeat: "Every court that has examined the "program" comes to the same conclusion." Now, it's true that one can cut and paste and excise and insert until they have pretty much aborted the entire program and thereby get the religion out. But the program as it is spelled out in the Big Book is decidedly religious in nature.

WORKS? Works for what? It certainly doesn't "work" as far as reducing or eliminating mind-altering substance use/abuse.

Millions of men and women all over the world have successfully recovered with the help of AA.

What help?

In fact, AA has the highest recovery rate of all the various methods of addiction recovery, and is endorsed and copied by most of them.

LOL No, it doesn't. What study are you citing?

is that it offers the experience, strength, and hope of recovering alcoholics to the those who are in need of recovery, to help them do what they are unable to do by themselves: recover from alcoholism. And by working through a process that has been established by the experience and practice of millions of previous alcoholics who have recovered their lives and happiness as sober beings, current alcoholics are able to recover, too. I know, as I am one of them. (Sober for 24 years)

I couldn't care less for your "testimonial" - or my own either, for that matter.

That's a shame, because addiction is a terrible disease that not only slowly guts the addict physically and emotionally, but causes them to destroy their relationships with everyone they love, and everyone that loves them. The majority of addicts and alcoholics will never seek any help for their sickness, at all. And they will die in their disease. And of the few that do seek help, many of them will not be able to break the cycle of self abuse. So that the few that programs like AA can save, are especially important. Because they show the others that there is hope. And that addiction can be overcome.

.... and that's simply your "testimonial". I can find the same thing for Jehovah's WItnesses, Scientologists, and every other crackpot group.

And I am not a participant in any religion, nor have I been forced or encouraged to become religious by AA.

Then how in the world did you "work the program" by praying the 7th Step Prayer?

The "Higher Power" in AA refers to that power greater than ourselves, that we need to overcome our addiction to drinking, because we have discovered that our own willpower will not do it. We must have a power greater than our own to help us.

I didn't mention a higher power. I simply copied the prayer which is prayed to "our Creator".

For most AA members this "higher power" is the group. And is often their sponsor, who have managed to do what the individual alcoholic cannot: get and stay sober. And "prayer" can refer to all sorts of ways of accessing that "higher power". I almost never prayed in early recovery. But I spent a lot of time pacing, and rocking back and forth holding my dog, and repeating phrases over and over and over. Anything that would override the maniac in my head that was always screaming for a drink.

My Creator,

I am now willing that You should have all of me,
good and bad. I pray that You now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to You and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do Your bidding.

Amen

The text from which this comes was written by the alcoholics of the time. I think around the 1940s, when such generally spiritual terms were not a hot-button issue for anyone. And they remain in the book mostly as part of the tradition. But any individual working this step will be encouraged by their sponsor to interpret it in whatever way makes sense to them. There are many atheists and agnostics in AA.

So you pretty much toss aside anything in the "program" with which you disagree. It's like a salad bar.

I have no bias against religion. I am a Christian, after all. I have a bias against a fruitcake group whose very founder claimed, "I knew my past was forgiven, and my future was secure" because he thought he "saw God" while he was in DT's and drugged up on hallucinogens.

You are clearly working very hard at finding ways to discredit a program that you do not understand, and have not actually experienced via participation. You appear to think that AA presents itself as an alternative to your religion. And so resent it greatly.

Tell ya what, dude. Why don't you produce for us just ONE peer-reviewed study, with controls and statistical analysis, that demonstrates that AA or NA reduce or eliminate drug consumption, including the drug alcohol?

What does any of this have to do with "drug consumption"? AA is not trying to minimize drug or alcohol consumption. It's trying to help addicts and alcoholic get and stay sober so that they can recover their lives. That's it. Nothing more.

And they don't accomplish THAT. I was simply including NA in the package. After all, alcohol is just as much of a drug as the narcotics. At any rate:

Why don't you produce for us just ONE peer-reviewed study, with controls and statistical analysis, that demonstrates that AA or NA reduce or eliminate drug consumption, including the drug alcohol?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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10/15/2016 6:21:16 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/15/2016 5:31:48 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/15/2016 3:03:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/15/2016 1:35:28 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/15/2016 7:45:06 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:44:15 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??


You are pretty clearly what AA refers to as a "dry drunk". You stopped using your drug of choice,

Correction: I stopped using drugs, period. That was the goal, after all.

but you did nothing to recover your sanity or serenity. You did not work the steps sufficiently to learn how to let go of the fear and anger and resentment that fueled your drug use. And this is plain to see just from your last few posts. Your resentment of AA is wildly disproportional.

OF COURSE I resent having been forced to attend useless meetings just because someone thought that "going to meetings" helped THEM quit using drugs or alcohol. If you wanna see a "dry drunk" in action, tell the whole group that out of quite a few peer-reviewed published studies, complete with controls and statistical analyses, and other "studies of the studies" - all of these involving thousands and thousands of people all total - there was practically no evidence at all that the "program" actually succeeded in helping alcoholics/addicts remain sober. None whatsoever. That's the truth of the matter. Tell 'em that - remember "brutal honesty" - and you'll see all the "dry drunks" in the room lose every ounce of their "serenity" right quick.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
graceofgod
Posts: 5,096
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10/15/2016 8:44:08 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/15/2016 1:40:45 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/14/2016 10:07:34 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:44:15 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

Yes and no.

I am an alcoholic. I was "hardwired", genetically, to be very anxious and self-conscious in my normal sober 'default' state. But to experience a kind of euphoria when I drank, and the alcohol relieved me from all that self-conscious anxiety. So for me, the transition was huge, and extremely positive, like some magical elixir. And I fell in love with that euphoric feeing immediately. then I chased after that feeling every chance I got for the next 20 years.

I think that for a lot of people "God" becomes their "magic elixir" the way alcohol did for me. The concept they develop in their minds, of God, somehow comforts them, and quiets the storm of negative thoughts and emotions that otherwise trouble themas a regular condition. So they hold onto their God more and more intently, as time passes.

It's not that we are "hardwired to believe in God". It's more that we are hardwired to NEED to believe in something. And for a lot of people that something becomes their concept of God.

great answer thank you...

so atheism is a rejection of the need or something else"??

Just a rejection of the idea of "God" as a way of filling that need. I think we all need a kind of fulfillment that material reality cannot offer us. But we don't all choose the 'god-ideal' as our way of achieving that fulfillment.

makes sense..
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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10/15/2016 8:50:41 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 8:30:34 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

Indoctrination, it's been going on for centuries.

But in your (materialist) world view such religious indoctrination must itself be some by-product of the evolutionary and social process?

If there is no God and material forces alone have led to what we have today, then you must "blame" these material forces yes?

Tell me, why would a universe not created by any God, lead to beings who thought there was a God?

Sorry Dummel but all your hatred and vitriol (we've all seen it here) must I'm afraid be directed the universe itself, for it - however it magically came to be - must be the ultimate source of this "God" concept.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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10/15/2016 8:57:03 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/15/2016 8:50:41 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:30:34 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

Indoctrination, it's been going on for centuries.

But in your (materialist) world view

That would be the world in which we both exist and are forced to deal with everyday that some refer to as reality?

such religious indoctrination must itself be some by-product of the evolutionary and social process?

Yes, the evolution from ignorance to understanding.

If there is no God and material forces alone

Those would be the forces that you and I are forced to deal with everyday that some refer to as reality?

have led to what we have today, then you must "blame" these material forces yes?

And, what exactly do we have today that we should be blaming? Are you referring to the physical laws of the universe?

Tell me, why would a universe not created by any God, lead to beings who thought there was a God?

...or vampires, or leprechauns, or whatever other magical entity you wish to imagine?

Sorry Dummel but all your hatred and vitriol (we've all seen it here) must I'm afraid be directed the universe itself, for it - however it magically came to be - must be the ultimate source of this "God" concept.

Are you being hated by me, Harry? Are my inquiries into your illogical and irrational beliefs and questions just so much vitriol?

You poor thing. Should I call your mum for you?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Looncall
Posts: 458
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10/15/2016 9:19:18 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/15/2016 8:50:41 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:30:34 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

Indoctrination, it's been going on for centuries.

But in your (materialist) world view such religious indoctrination must itself be some by-product of the evolutionary and social process?

If there is no God and material forces alone have led to what we have today, then you must "blame" these material forces yes?

Tell me, why would a universe not created by any God, lead to beings who thought there was a God?

Sorry Dummel but all your hatred and vitriol (we've all seen it here) must I'm afraid be directed the universe itself, for it - however it magically came to be - must be the ultimate source of this "God" concept.

I think that a trait useful for training the young was hijacked by scoundrels. I suppose that the first tribesman who found that he could escape the daily grind of survival by pretending to talk to gods figured he was onto a cushy life. And so it goes on.
The metaphysicist has no laboratory.
PureX
Posts: 1,528
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10/16/2016 3:11:46 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/15/2016 6:21:16 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/15/2016 5:31:48 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/15/2016 3:03:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/15/2016 1:35:28 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/15/2016 7:45:06 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:44:15 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??


You are pretty clearly what AA refers to as a "dry drunk". You stopped using your drug of choice,

Correction: I stopped using drugs, period. That was the goal, after all.

but you did nothing to recover your sanity or serenity. You did not work the steps sufficiently to learn how to let go of the fear and anger and resentment that fueled your drug use. And this is plain to see just from your last few posts. Your resentment of AA is wildly disproportional.

OF COURSE I resent having been forced to attend useless meetings just because someone thought that "going to meetings" helped THEM quit using drugs or alcohol. If you wanna see a "dry drunk" in action, tell the whole group that out of quite a few peer-reviewed published studies, complete with controls and statistical analyses, and other "studies of the studies" - all of these involving thousands and thousands of people all total - there was practically no evidence at all that the "program" actually succeeded in helping alcoholics/addicts remain sober. None whatsoever. That's the truth of the matter. Tell 'em that - remember "brutal honesty" - and you'll see all the "dry drunks" in the room lose every ounce of their "serenity" right quick.

Well, I participated in AA for 8 years, and in that time I met a great many alcoholics that got sober and stayed sober, and recovered their lives as a result of working the program. I still know some of them after more than 20 years of sobriety, myself, and they are still sober and living happy lives. So I really don't care about your studies, because I have first hand knowledge and experience. I got to meet some of the 20+ year 'old-timers' when I was newly sober as they were invited to the Chicago AA office to record their stories. I have sponsored people, myself, and I know they are still sober after nearly 20 years. My sponsor is still sober, and he's coming up on 28 years without a drink.

And this is just one person's experience. I am sure everyone else in AA has experienced a similar experience and met a number of folks who have the same successful recovery history. Your attempts at slandering AA do not wash with my direct personal experiences. Nor with anyone else's that I know of. And in my time with AA, I met a LOT of alcoholics, and personally witnessed their recovery.
PureX
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10/16/2016 3:35:24 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/15/2016 6:16:23 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/15/2016 5:31:48 PM, PureX wrote:

I repeat: "Every court that has examined the "program" comes to the same conclusion." Now, it's true that one can cut and paste and excise and insert until they have pretty much aborted the entire program and thereby get the religion out. But the program as it is spelled out in the Big Book is decidedly religious in nature.

No court has ever concluded that AA is a religion. If any had done so, they could not order people to go to AA meetings in response to offenses involving intoxication. AA is similar to religion, legally, only in that it is a private, non-profit, self-help, meeting group.

Millions of men and women all over the world have successfully recovered with the help of AA.

What help?

Learning how to live life as a sober person. Alcoholics and addict run to the bar or their dealer whenever anything difficult or upsetting happens in their life. So they never learn how to properly deal with any sort of difficulty. In fact, in time, they actually seek out problems so they have an excuse to run the bar or the drug dealer.

So that when they stop escaping every difficulty in life by running to alcohol and drugs, they quickly realize they have coping skills, like other people do, because they never learned any. They have not advanced emotionally or intellectually past the point in life when they began to drink and drug. And for most of us, that means about the early teens. So we have to learn how to deal with problems and adversity in life like sober people do. And that's what the 'program' is for. Because if we don't learn how to do this, we will likely end up drinking and drugging again.

Then how in the world did you "work the program" by praying the 7th Step Prayer?

The "Higher Power" in AA refers to that power greater than ourselves, that we need to overcome our addiction to drinking, because we have discovered that our own willpower will not do it. We must have a power greater than our own to help us.

I didn't mention a higher power. I simply copied the prayer which is prayed to "our Creator".

For most AA members this "higher power" is the group. And is often their sponsor, who have managed to do what the individual alcoholic cannot: get and stay sober. And "prayer" can refer to all sorts of ways of accessing that "higher power". I almost never prayed in early recovery. But I spent a lot of time pacing, and rocking back and forth holding my dog, and repeating phrases over and over and over. Anything that would override the maniac in my head that was always screaming for a drink.

My Creator,

I am now willing that You should have all of me,
good and bad. I pray that You now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to You and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do Your bidding.

Amen

The text from which this comes was written by the alcoholics of the time. I think around the 1940s, when such generally spiritual terms were not a hot-button issue for anyone. And they remain in the book mostly as part of the tradition. But any individual working this step will be encouraged by their sponsor to interpret it in whatever way makes sense to them. There are many atheists and agnostics in AA.

So you pretty much toss aside anything in the "program" with which you disagree. It's like a salad bar.

No. We just find a "prayer" that makes sense to us. I personally have no problem with the words "God" or "Creator" or "Higher Power". Nor do I have any problem with the practice of praying. And when I was in early recovery I was willing to try anything to avoid the hell of falling back into active addiction. So quibbling over wording was the least of my concerns.
PureX
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10/16/2016 3:42:03 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/15/2016 3:03:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/15/2016 1:35:28 PM, PureX wrote:

Tell ya what, dude. Why don't you produce for us just ONE peer-reviewed study,

Why? I don't need them. I have first-hand knowledge. And you aren't going to accept any proof of any kind. So why brother?

As far as me, I was dependent on hydrocodone for several years, a very functional addict. I weaned off of it with Methadone over a two-month period. That was six or seven years ago. I've been drug-free ever since. That was that. Yet I have been diagnosed as an "incurable addict" by the 12-step tards, an addict whose "disease" can only be kept at bay by attending their meetings. I can promise you: all of that "serenity" flies out the door fast when one tells the powers-that-be (on the state level) that their little "system" which consists of "program" does not work as far as its implied purpose.

Had you actually worked the program, you would have learned how to let go of all that anger and resentment that you are still carrying around in you. And you would have found the 'serenity' that the program wanted to help you achieve. I'm glad you have not returned to using drugs, but I'm sorry that you didn't stay for the other gifts that a full recovery have to offer. And that, apparently, your religion is not helping you to achieve, either.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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10/16/2016 4:30:11 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/15/2016 3:03:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/15/2016 1:35:28 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/15/2016 7:45:06 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:44:15 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

Yes and no.

I am an alcoholic. I was "hardwired", genetically, to be very anxious and self-conscious in my normal sober 'default' state. But to experience a kind of euphoria when I drank, and the alcohol relieved me from all that self-conscious anxiety. So for me, the transition was huge, and extremely positive, like some magical elixir. And I fell in love with that euphoric feeing immediately. then I chased after that feeling every chance I got for the next 20 years.

I think that for a lot of people "God" becomes their "magic elixir" the way alcohol did for me. The concept they develop in their minds, of God, somehow comforts them, and quiets the storm of negative thoughts and emotions that otherwise trouble themas a regular condition. So they hold onto their God more and more intently, as time passes.

That's pretty much the concept of Alcoholics Anonymous. You trade a dependency on alcohol (or drugs) for their quack religion.

AA is not a religious entity. It neither endorses nor opposes any religion of religious doctrines.

Oh, yes it is - and every court that has examined the "program" comes to the same conclusion.

The way AA works ...

WORKS? Works for what? It certainly doesn't "work" as far as reducing or eliminating mind-altering substance use/abuse.

is that it offers the experience, strength, and hope of recovering alcoholics to the those who are in need of recovery, to help them do what they are unable to do by themselves: recover from alcoholism. And by working through a process that has been established by the experience and practice of millions of previous alcoholics who have recovered their lives and happiness as sober beings, current alcoholics are able to recover, too. I know, as I am one of them. (Sober for 24 years)

I couldn't care less for your "testimonial" - or my own either, for that matter.

And I am not a participant in any religion, nor have I been forced or encouraged to become religious by AA.

Then how in the world did you "work the program" by praying the 7th Step Prayer?

My Creator,

I am now willing that You should have all of me,
good and bad. I pray that You now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to You and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do Your bidding.

Amen


Personally, I'd choose the dope.

Then you are a fool. Because you will be destroying yourself and hurting everyone you love and that loves you, just because you are irrationally biased against religion.

I have no bias against religion. I am a Christian, after all. I have a bias against a fruitcake group whose very founder claimed, "I knew my past was forgiven, and my future was secure" because he thought he "saw God" while he was in DT's and drugged up on hallucinogens.

And because you have no idea what programs like AA and NA are doing for addicts and alcoholics.

Yes, I do. I lost everything by refusing to participate in their nonsense.

That (AA) is without a doubt the stupidest group of clowns I've ever run across - and the most dishonest - and the most deceitful. I told my state medical board that their "treatment" made the Scientologists and WatchTower look pretty damn credible by comparison.

It's sad that you are this ignorant, biased, and angry. Hopefully, you are not an alcoholic or addict, and so will not be harmed by all that ignorance and bile.

Tell ya what, dude. Why don't you produce for us just ONE peer-reviewed study, with controls and statistical analysis, that demonstrates that AA or NA reduce or eliminate drug consumption, including the drug alcohol? A number of them have been conducted. Heck, the Cochran Foundation even did a "study" of the "studies". They looked at about 3,500 people. Their conclusion? "No experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA or TSF approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or problems."

As far as me, I was dependent on hydrocodone for several years, a very functional addict. I weaned off of it with Methadone over a two-month period. That was six or seven years ago. I've been drug-free ever since. That was that. Yet I have been diagnosed as an "incurable addict" by the 12-step tards, an addict whose "disease" can only be kept at bay by attending their meetings. I can promise you: all of that "serenity" flies out the door fast when one tells the powers-that-be (on the state level) that their little "system" which consists of "program" does not work as far as its implied purpose.

You have the same attitude that my dad did about "the program." Constantly talking about and having to listen to "addicts" converse about their using, makes anyone who is prone to liking the effects of substances just want to use them more. AA would drive me to wanna drink. I quit drinking and smoking weed because my son is on probation and I want to set a good example for him, but if I had to go and listen to bunch of people converse about drugs and alcohol, I would wanna get high again. As it is now, I barely even think about wanting to. I find listening to music, dancing and fighting on the internet to be more stimulating and satisfying anyhow. Stay strong and follow your convictions and may God Bless you :)
uncung
Posts: 3,455
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10/16/2016 5:08:08 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/14/2016 8:13:50 PM, janesix wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??

I don't think so. I was raised atheist and there was no reason to believe for me. I think we tend to believe what we are programmed to believe in early childhood.

but we still belong to the brain that will verify the belief we born into. if religious people use their brains then I ensure they would change their religious stance eentually.
wondering there are many religious scientist such as from India, EU, Thailand, and Iran but they still follow their childhood religions.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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10/16/2016 5:11:34 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 3:11:46 AM, PureX wrote:
At 10/15/2016 6:21:16 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/15/2016 5:31:48 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/15/2016 3:03:57 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/15/2016 1:35:28 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/15/2016 7:45:06 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:44:15 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/14/2016 8:03:27 PM, graceofgod wrote:
or hard weird not to believe??

or it belief is the result of random events, family ....??


You are pretty clearly what AA refers to as a "dry drunk". You stopped using your drug of choice,

Correction: I stopped using drugs, period. That was the goal, after all.

but you did nothing to recover your sanity or serenity. You did not work the steps sufficiently to learn how to let go of the fear and anger and resentment that fueled your drug use. And this is plain to see just from your last few posts. Your resentment of AA is wildly disproportional.

OF COURSE I resent having been forced to attend useless meetings just because someone thought that "going to meetings" helped THEM quit using drugs or alcohol. If you wanna see a "dry drunk" in action, tell the whole group that out of quite a few peer-reviewed published studies, complete with controls and statistical analyses, and other "studies of the studies" - all of these involving thousands and thousands of people all total - there was practically no evidence at all that the "program" actually succeeded in helping alcoholics/addicts remain sober. None whatsoever. That's the truth of the matter. Tell 'em that - remember "brutal honesty" - and you'll see all the "dry drunks" in the room lose every ounce of their "serenity" right quick.

Well, I participated in AA for 8 years, and in that time I met a great many alcoholics that got sober and stayed sober, and recovered their lives

I'm sure you did.

as a result of working the program.

Right THERE is the problem: you confuse causation and correlation. They "got sober" and "stayed sober" because they chose to do so, just as I did. "Working the program", according to the best studies, had little or nothing to do with it.

I still know some of them after more than 20 years of sobriety, myself, and they are still sober and living happy lives. So I really don't care about your studies, because I have first hand knowledge and experience.

Of course ya don't! I knew that to start with. I never found a Scientologist who cared, either. Ditto for the Jehovah's Witnesses. You see, the true cultist always places his "experience" and his "feelings" over and above ten thousand times ten thousand peer-reviewed, controlled studies.

I got to meet some of the 20+ year 'old-timers' when I was newly sober as they were invited to the Chicago AA office to record their stories. I have sponsored people, myself, and I know they are still sober after nearly 20 years. My sponsor is still sober, and he's coming up on 28 years without a drink.

So? My dad died sober at age 72 after 22 years of total sobriety. Never set foot in a meeting - and wouldn't have. Still worked. Lived out a nice, happy, healthy life until felled by leukemia. He quit drinking because the price he was paying for it (in a number of ways) was simply too high. Now ... had he been in AA, you wouldn't have any better sense than to credit AA with his success.

And this is just one person's experience. I am sure everyone else in AA has experienced a similar experience and met a number of folks who have the same successful recovery history. Your attempts at slandering AA do not wash with my direct personal experiences. Nor with anyone else's that I know of. And in my time with AA, I met a LOT of alcoholics, and personally witnessed their recovery.

It is truly unfortunately that none of these folks ever seem to turn up when a group of Harvard or Cornell PhD's are giving AA a cold, hard look. Isn't that odd. By the way, cigarette smoking isn't harmful, either. I can prove it by citing success stories who folks who chain-smoked into their 90's. And don't worry about quoting statistics to me.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."