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If God does not exist, the following is true

Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.
janesix
Posts: 3,466
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10/16/2016 1:10:03 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.
Our perceptions arent accurate. We can detect very little with our senses, and the brain fills in the details.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.
Why wouldnt we have free will?
Willows
Posts: 2,063
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10/16/2016 1:12:32 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Correct, but so what? I can find things to do with my life without being told, can't you?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/16/2016 1:12:35 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 1:10:03 AM, janesix wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.
Our perceptions arent accurate. We can detect very little with our senses, and the brain fills in the details.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.
Why wouldnt we have free will?

Because everything is ultimately governed by and derivative from the natural laws of our universe which are deterministic.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/16/2016 1:19:11 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 1:12:32 AM, Willows wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Correct, but so what? I can find things to do with my life without being told, can't you?

It goes deeper than that. Nobody can 'rationally' do something with their life because whatever end they choose is totally subjective.
janesix
Posts: 3,466
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10/16/2016 1:22:42 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 1:12:35 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/16/2016 1:10:03 AM, janesix wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.
Our perceptions arent accurate. We can detect very little with our senses, and the brain fills in the details.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.
Why wouldnt we have free will?

Because everything is ultimately governed by and derivative from the natural laws of our universe which are deterministic.
That's not true. Quantum mechanics shows everything is probablistic.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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10/16/2016 1:25:11 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.

If God does not exist, we would be living in exactly the same universe with exactly the same physical laws. nothing would be any different than it is now.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
illegalcombat
Posts: 632
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10/16/2016 1:31:34 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.

Oh look, it's some guy who just asserts over and over if God exists such and such much be the case.

If God exists, then their is no way in hell Ben would be this stupid.

Check and Mate.
Willows
Posts: 2,063
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10/16/2016 5:14:00 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 1:19:11 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/16/2016 1:12:32 AM, Willows wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Correct, but so what? I can find things to do with my life without being told, can't you?

It goes deeper than that.
You are trying to rationalise that having a relationship with God is deep and meaningful.

Nobody can 'rationally' do something with their life because whatever end they choose is totally subjective.

And that's right, whatever I want to do with my life is subjective but that means I set my own goals, have my own boundaries and am influenced by society and family rules. Those are my rational choices.

I don't feel the need to kowtow to somebody else's plan for me and be continually looking over my shoulder to see whether He approves or not.

I don't value myself as being so special that I believe my conscience is somehow going to continue and nor would I want to.
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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10/16/2016 5:36:49 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.
You forgot:
Poor little Benny would be responsible for himself.
Your fear is palpable. Try growing up, you never know you might like some of it.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Argy_Lacedom
Posts: 2
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10/16/2016 6:03:47 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.

God doesn't explain any of those things.

1. The existence of a god(s) does not give humans an intrinsic purpose or value.

2. The existence of a god(s) says nothing about ideals.

3. The existence of a god(s) does not ensure our perceptions of reality are accurate. In fact, quite the contrary. If a god(s) exist then we cannot perceive it unambiguously.

4. The existence of a god(s) does not, necessarily, imply a morality.

5. The existence of a god(s) does not imply purpose.

6. If by "universe" you mean "all that exists" then god (if such a thing exists) is by definition part of it. If the origin of the universe is a "logical absurdity" then so is god.
If the universe is all that exists, then God is part of it. If the universe needs a creator then so does God.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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10/16/2016 6:47:09 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

How does God give you an inherent purpose? If this is because he is morally good then see my response to morality. If it is because he is powerful then does might make right? Is it because he created us, so creating someone makes you their king? How?

Morality can only convey fictional truths.
Ideals are completely subjective.

If morality was created by God then it is subjective, and you need to explain how someone can create morality. If God is simply following an external objective morality then he is no longer required for it to exist and one can have morality with him

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

If they were not accurate then we could not get predictable results from certain actions. If you think this world is a craftily designed illusion that claim itself requires evidence. Also, how do you know God didn't make your perceptions inaccurate?

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

I can agree with this. if you define a means to and end as something planned. Planning does require intelligence. However natural occurring things do have reasons why they do what they do and can have directions they are going.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

How is that? The universe could have been created in a multiverse. Also if you define the universe as all there is, then God is part of the universe and since he exists forever then the universe had no origin from a theistic perspective.

We have no free will.

It depends on what "we" are? If we are controlled by the processes in our brain, but we are our physical brain then we can control ourselves. While the reactions in our brain are predictable chemical reasons one can ask if they are in control or whether they are tools of the structures in our brains which are us.
Skeptical1
Posts: 693
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10/16/2016 7:47:28 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

So?


Ideals are completely subjective.

Correct.


Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

Why so? Yours may not be. I consider mine mostly accurate, although no doubt I'm wrong about some things.


Morality can only convey fictional truths.


"Fictional truths" is an oxymoron.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.


And?

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

What's logically absurd is to argue that nothing can exist without a creator - except a creator.


We have no free will.

Spoken to any Calvinists lately? Plenty of theists believe your statement to be true. Perhaps I don't have free will, but I have the illusion of it, which allows me to act as if I did.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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10/16/2016 8:14:03 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Okay.


Ideals are completely subjective.

Not really sure what this means.


Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

This is a known fact.


Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Unsupported assertion.


Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

Yup.


The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

Unsupported assertion.


We have no free will.

Indeed.

Not really sure what you think you're showing here. Beyond a shaky grasp of ethics and logic.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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10/16/2016 3:39:14 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

How does this change if there is a god?

Ideals are completely subjective.

How does this change if there is a god?

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

How does this change if there is a god?

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

How does this change if there is a god?

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

How does this change if there is a god?

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

How does this change if there is a god?

We have no free will.

How does this change if there is a god?
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/16/2016 3:45:44 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 1:25:11 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.

If God does not exist, we would be living in exactly the same universe with exactly the same physical laws. nothing would be any different than it is now.

If God didn't exist, anything at all would almost certainly not exist. If reality was derivative from mindlessness it would probably be as deep and as rich as something like the old Pong game for Atari except not having a point and constantly glitching nonsense.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/16/2016 3:48:52 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 1:22:42 AM, janesix wrote:
At 10/16/2016 1:12:35 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/16/2016 1:10:03 AM, janesix wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.
Our perceptions arent accurate. We can detect very little with our senses, and the brain fills in the details.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.
Why wouldnt we have free will?

Because everything is ultimately governed by and derivative from the natural laws of our universe which are deterministic.
That's not true. Quantum mechanics shows everything is probablistic.

I think that's only assuming an interpretation where consciousness results in the collapse of the wavefunction though.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/16/2016 3:49:36 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 1:31:34 AM, illegalcombat wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.

Oh look, it's some guy who just asserts over and over if God exists such and such much be the case.

If God exists, then their is no way in hell Ben would be this stupid.

Check and Mate.

Feel free to point out which ones are incorrect.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/16/2016 3:56:21 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 5:14:00 AM, Willows wrote:
At 10/16/2016 1:19:11 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/16/2016 1:12:32 AM, Willows wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Correct, but so what? I can find things to do with my life without being told, can't you?

It goes deeper than that.
You are trying to rationalise that having a relationship with God is deep and meaningful.

All I'm trying to do is lay out the logical implications of God's non-existence.

Nobody can 'rationally' do something with their life because whatever end they choose is totally subjective.

And that's right, whatever I want to do with my life is subjective but that means I set my own goals, have my own boundaries and am influenced by society and family rules. Those are my rational choices.

I don't feel the need to kowtow to somebody else's plan for me and be continually looking over my shoulder to see whether He approves or not.

I don't value myself as being so special that I believe my conscience is somehow going to continue and nor would I want to.

But it means that your goals are completely arbitrary. Our goals stem from our ideals. Our ideals stem from our values. Our values stem from our desires.

This means that ideals such as "intelligence, virtuosity, wealth, health" etc. is truly not better than "ignorance, iniquitousness, poverty, sickness" etc. So somebody who wished to be ignorant, selfish, impoverished, and diseased is just as rational as you are.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/16/2016 3:57:44 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.
You forgot:
Poor little Benny would be responsible for himself.
Your fear is palpable. Try growing up, you never know you might like some of it.

I think you're afraid to engage in a serious debate because you lack the confidence to stand by your assertions.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/16/2016 4:01:15 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 6:03:47 AM, Argy_Lacedom wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.

God doesn't explain any of those things.

1. The existence of a god(s) does not give humans an intrinsic purpose or value.

If humanity was the creation of an intelligent designer as a means towards some end, why not?

2. The existence of a god(s) says nothing about ideals.

This follows from having an inherent purpose.

3. The existence of a god(s) does not ensure our perceptions of reality are accurate. In fact, quite the contrary. If a god(s) exist then we cannot perceive it unambiguously.

We have the certainty of knowledge and reality having a fundamentally mental nature.

4. The existence of a god(s) does not, necessarily, imply a morality.

It depends on whether the god is deistic or theistic.

5. The existence of a god(s) does not imply purpose.

Inherent purpose, if humanity is the product of God's creation.

6. If by "universe" you mean "all that exists" then god (if such a thing exists) is by definition part of it. If the origin of the universe is a "logical absurdity" then so is god.

I have a lengthy argument for this so unless you want to hear it I won't go into it now.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/16/2016 4:16:22 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 6:47:09 AM, distraff wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

How does God give you an inherent purpose? If this is because he is morally good then see my response to morality. If it is because he is powerful then does might make right? Is it because he created us, so creating someone makes you their king? How?

Having inherent purpose isn't necessarily morally relevant. If humanity is the product of God's creation, then the purpose for which God created us gives us inherent purpose.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.
Ideals are completely subjective.

If morality was created by God then it is subjective, and you need to explain how someone can create morality. If God is simply following an external objective morality then he is no longer required for it to exist and one can have morality with him

Moral rights and wrongs are basically a disposition or will that you should or shouldn't conform to. If God has a necessarily true disposition and will, this could be the objective standard by which we measure the morality/immorality of actions against.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

If they were not accurate then we could not get predictable results from certain actions. If you think this world is a craftily designed illusion that claim itself requires evidence. Also, how do you know God didn't make your perceptions inaccurate?

Reality is necessarily derivative from mindlessness if God doesn't exist. Right? We can only perceive reality mentally. But the true reality is non-mental. We can't even perceive/conceive of the fundamental reality. Also, naturally selective processes primarily result in what's best for survival, not primarily what's most true. Our whole neurological framework is constructed by whatever primarily resulted in what was best for survival (or so goes the logic).

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

I can agree with this. if you define a means to and end as something planned. Planning does require intelligence. However natural occurring things do have reasons why they do what they do and can have directions they are going.

Not why, only how. Mindless processes lack the capacity for intent and knowledge. A mindless process can't "X to achieve Y."

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

How is that? The universe could have been created in a multiverse. Also if you define the universe as all there is, then God is part of the universe and since he exists forever then the universe had no origin from a theistic perspective.

Basically, if the universe wasn't a product of free will, it necessarily has a quantitative beginning.

We have no free will.

It depends on what "we" are? If we are controlled by the processes in our brain, but we are our physical brain then we can control ourselves. While the reactions in our brain are predictable chemical reasons one can ask if they are in control or whether they are tools of the structures in our brains which are us.

Our brains will still be physical and subject to the laws of physics right?
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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10/16/2016 4:21:52 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 3:57:44 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/16/2016 5:36:49 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.
You forgot:
Poor little Benny would be responsible for himself.
Your fear is palpable. Try growing up, you never know you might like some of it.

I think you're afraid to engage in a serious debate because you lack the confidence to stand by your assertions.
It's obvious that you are so afraid of reality that you produce all of these excuses to convince yourself that you won't DIE.
Do you want to partake in that discussion?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/16/2016 4:22:24 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 8:14:03 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Okay.


Ideals are completely subjective.

Not really sure what this means.

It means that "ignorance" is an ideal that is inherently just as rational to havs as "intelligence."


Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

This is a known fact.


Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Unsupported assertion.

If God doesn't exist, humanity has no intrinsic ends. Objective moral truths require that humanity has intrinsic ends.


Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

Yup.


The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

Unsupported assertion.

We have a quantitative beginning if it wasn't the product of free will.


We have no free will.

Indeed.

Not really sure what you think you're showing here. Beyond a shaky grasp of ethics and logic.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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10/16/2016 4:30:22 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 4:22:24 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/16/2016 8:14:03 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Okay.


Ideals are completely subjective.

Not really sure what this means.

It means that "ignorance" is an ideal that is inherently just as rational to havs as "intelligence."

But ideals are context-sensitive, so talking about them having inherent absolute value is ridiculous.


Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

This is a known fact.


Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Unsupported assertion.

If God doesn't exist, humanity has no intrinsic ends. Objective moral truths require that humanity has intrinsic ends.

Another unsupported assertion. Please demonstrate this without appealling to yet another unsupported assertion.



Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

Yup.


The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

Unsupported assertion.

We have a quantitative beginning if it wasn't the product of free will.

Unsupported assertion AND nonsensical non sequitur. You claimed without god the universe's beginning is a logical absurdity. Demonstrate why without appealling to another unsupported assertion.



We have no free will.

Indeed.

Not really sure what you think you're showing here. Beyond a shaky grasp of ethics and logic.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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10/16/2016 4:35:57 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 4:16:22 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/16/2016 6:47:09 AM, distraff wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

How does God give you an inherent purpose? If this is because he is morally good then see my response to morality. If it is because he is powerful then does might make right? Is it because he created us, so creating someone makes you their king? How?

Having inherent purpose isn't necessarily morally relevant. If humanity is the product of God's creation, then the purpose for which God created us gives us inherent purpose.

How does God's purpose for us give us our inherent purpose? Thats just his opinion. If God made me a chicken and God made my inherent purpose to be human food I would certainly decide that I want a different purpose for myself. I would decide that my purpose is to have a long happy chicken life with lots of chicken food, chicken sex, and stay as far away from humans as possible.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.
Ideals are completely subjective.

If morality was created by God then it is subjective, and you need to explain how someone can create morality. If God is simply following an external objective morality then he is no longer required for it to exist and one can have morality with him

Moral rights and wrongs are basically a disposition or will that you should or shouldn't conform to. If God has a necessarily true disposition and will, this could be the objective standard by which we measure the morality/immorality of actions against.

So are you saying that objective morality exists outside of God, and that he is just someone with a morally good disposition so you can use his disposition to measure moral right and wrong? Or did he create morality somehow based on his disposition?

And I disagree that they are a disposition or a will. They are ideas like math, love, or science. Will and disposition are attributes of living things. Morality can be thought about by humans with will and disposition but that doesn't mean morality has these qualities.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

If they were not accurate then we could not get predictable results from certain actions. If you think this world is a craftily designed illusion that claim itself requires evidence. Also, how do you know God didn't make your perceptions inaccurate?

Reality is necessarily derivative from mindlessness if God doesn't exist. Right? We can only perceive reality mentally. But the true reality is non-mental. We can't even perceive/conceive of the fundamental reality.

Yes, but this would also be true if we were created by God. Also, while our perceptions are only interpretations of reality we know they are very accurate because we can verify very specific predictions about reality from our senses.

Also, naturally selective processes primarily result in what's best for survival, not primarily what's most true. Our whole neurological framework is constructed by whatever primarily resulted in what was best for survival (or so goes the logic).

Obviously having senses that are accurate is good for survival. if your senses were not accurate you would not make good decisions about survival. When you start seeing things that are not there or hearing voices that are not there you start having major problems functioning.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

I can agree with this. if you define a means to and end as something planned. Planning does require intelligence. However natural occurring things do have reasons why they do what they do and can have directions they are going.

Not why, only how. Mindless processes lack the capacity for intent and knowledge. A mindless process can't "X to achieve Y."

They do lack intent and knowledge but they can have direction, pattern, structure, and predictability.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

How is that? The universe could have been created in a multiverse. Also if you define the universe as all there is, then God is part of the universe and since he exists forever then the universe had no origin from a theistic perspective.

Basically, if the universe wasn't a product of free will, it necessarily has a quantitative beginning.

Why is that in a way that doesn't mean God had a beginning too.

We have no free will.

It depends on what "we" are? If we are controlled by the processes in our brain, but we are our physical brain then we can control ourselves. While the reactions in our brain are predictable chemical reasons one can ask if they are in control or whether they are tools of the structures in our brains which are us.

Our brains will still be physical and subject to the laws of physics right?

Yes. However everything that happens in computers also operate by electricity flowing through circuits operating by the laws of physics. Yet the circuits are set up to manipulate this electricity to do certain things. Can you really say the electricity is in control because it is doing all the work or that the macro-structures are what are in control because they are built in a way so that the electricity always do things a certain way.
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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10/16/2016 6:35:00 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.
Procreation. The human body also contains systems that performs functions.
Ideals are completely subjective.
The brain however, can be studied as it pertains to the anatomy and physiology in an objective manner.
Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.
Says who, and why?
Morality can only convey fictional truths.
Is that an intentional paradox?
Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.
How so?
The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.
The Big Bang Theory is a compelling model demonstrating otherwise.
We have no free will.
Define free will. The human brain allows for cognition which is then capable of making decisions and critical thinking.
Iredia
Posts: 1,608
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10/16/2016 6:55:11 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

We have no free will.

Points 5 and 6 I agree with. The rest I don't agree with.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/16/2016 8:16:25 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 6:35:00 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.
Procreation. The human body also contains systems that performs functions.

This is the "inherent purpose" instilled by evolution, a mindless process? How can a mindless process "produce X to achieve Y" when such a framework requires intent and knowledge?

Ideals are completely subjective.
The brain however, can be studied as it pertains to the anatomy and physiology in an objective manner.

What relevance does that have?

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.
Says who, and why?

Because if reality is not derivative from mind, it is derivative from mindlessness by law of excluded middle. If reality is derivative from mindlessness, reality is fundamentally non-mental. We only perceive/conceive of reality mentally. Therefore, our perceptions/conceptions can't describe the fundamental, non-mental reality. Second, naturally selective processes primarily result in what's best for survival, not veridicality. Our "perception hardware" is eschewed towards what maximizes self-preservation, not what actually exists.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.
Is that an intentional paradox?

Yes.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.
How so?

Because in order to be a means towards an end it requires inputs of intent and knowledge which only comes from mind.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.
The Big Bang Theory is a compelling model demonstrating otherwise.

The universe had a quantitative beginning. From something that pre-existed it or from nothing? In either case, both eternality and nothing must have a quantitative beginning if they don't have the capacity for free will which results in a metaphysical logical absurdity.

We have no free will.
Define free will. The human brain allows for cognition which is then capable of making decisions and critical thinking.

Free will can be defined as the ability to have chosen otherwise.
Philosophy101
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10/16/2016 8:26:30 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/16/2016 12:44:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Humans have no inherent purpose or value.

God is not a necessary nor sufficient condition for inherent purpose. Without God purpose can still exist, such as the goals of survival and happiness. Nor with God is there any inherent meaning; God may give meaning, but it is still subject in the being God.

Ideals are completely subjective.

Where is there objective meaning to be had, all experience is inherently empty. When we look for an ideal none is there to be found.

Our perceptions of reality are not accurate.

Our perceptions of reality are such, this is the suchness f conscious experience.

Morality can only convey fictional truths.

Morality is to be found in oneself; subjective yes, but fictional no.

Any naturally occurring thing or process is not a means towards any end.

Ends are found in end seekers, our own and others' ends are the ends of the world.

The origin of our universe is a logical absurdity.

There is no origin to existence; it always was and will always be.

We have no free will.

I do not follow how God provides free will; we are more free without the entity God than with.