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tornshoe92
Posts: 361
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1/17/2011 7:45:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I imagine this has been discussed here before but I was sitting in my room wondering, if I am a person who does not believe in god (not belief that there's no god) and it is because either I was raised to question things and not believe in them "because I have faith", or because I am simply "not built" to have a faith-based mindset, then wouldn't a god damning me to some sort of hell for not believing in him/her be rediculous? I wonder because I recently had a discussion with one of my very close Christian friends where we traded what we believe and why.
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/17/2011 8:05:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If we are assuming a modern Christian God, the chap that was utterly unknown to the Jews and Muslims, then we have a deity who is held to good, kind, just. Omni-benevolent some might say.

Would an omni-benevolent being, consign you to hell or permanent death due to your failure to believe in him?

Would an omni-benevolent being, consign you to hell or permanent death due to your failure to believe in him because you had been raped by a catholic priest (a weak argument for atheism but an understandable one)?

Would an omni-benevolent being, consign you to hell or permanent death due to your failure to believe in him due to the fact that Richard Dawkins was your father?

Would an omni-benevolent being, consign you to hell or permanent death due to your failure to believe in him because of that fact you were a late term abortion?

Would an omni-benevolent being, consign you to hell or permanent death due to your failure to believe in him because of the fact that you died when you three and no ever even mentioned God to you?

Would an omni-benevolent being, consign you to hell or permanent death due to your failure to believe in him despite really wanting to, but finding the whole thing a bit far-fetched and a bit like wishful thinking?

No. Of course not. The modern Christian God will ultimately allow everyone to redeem themselves, which is perhaps why someone invented purgatory? (Well they embellished it from the Jews).

However why do we assume an omni-benevolent God when scripture creates a complete different image and his creation shows him in a totally different light?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Charles0103
Posts: 523
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1/17/2011 8:12:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ok, whenver I preach, I hear all this stuff from atheists like ALL THE TIME. I kinda get tired of repeating myself, but here goes!

Ok, God gives us CHOICE. We choose if we wanna go to heaven or hell. Period. The end. However, no matter what you pick, God wins in the end. Again, period. The end.

God wanted us to be with Him and all happy, but God LOVES us enough to give us free will. God doesn't MAKE these bad things happen. That shows that he loves us so much that he wants us to choose. If he made us love him, that wouldn't be real love. That just shows me how awesome my God is!

So we hear about babies being aborted or wars or disease, but we need to remember who started this. No, it wasn't Satan because we can always say no to temptation as hard as it may be. It's really our fault that these things are happening. We need to get out in the world and right these wrongs.

To answer your question in conclusion, I doubt there are many people in the world who have heard about Jesus. But what happens to the kid who was raised in Subsaharran Africa who never heard about Jesus? I dunno. That just shows the Christians we need to reach out to these people.

I just know what I need to do, and I do it.
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/17/2011 8:16:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/17/2011 8:12:22 PM, Charles0103 wrote:

Ok, God gives us CHOICE. We choose if we wanna go to heaven or hell. Period. The end. However, no matter what you pick, God wins in the end. Again, period. The end.


If your religion claimed, this thread would not exist. The point is that is not the situation, and it creates a paradox with the nature of God.

To answer your question in conclusion, I doubt there are many people in the world who have heard about Jesus. But what happens to the kid who was raised in Subsaharran Africa who never heard about Jesus? I dunno. That just shows the Christians we need to reach out to these people.

You claimed to have addressed this point so many times, yet here you reveal you are unable to do so.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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1/17/2011 8:16:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/17/2011 8:12:22 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
Ok, whenver I preach, I hear all this stuff from atheists like ALL THE TIME. I kinda get tired of repeating myself, but here goes!

Ok, God gives us CHOICE. We choose if we wanna go to heaven or hell. Period. The end. However, no matter what you pick, God wins in the end. Again, period. The end.

God wanted us to be with Him and all happy, but God LOVES us enough to give us free will. God doesn't MAKE these bad things happen. That shows that he loves us so much that he wants us to choose. If he made us love him, that wouldn't be real love. That just shows me how awesome my God is!

So we hear about babies being aborted or wars or disease, but we need to remember who started this. No, it wasn't Satan because we can always say no to temptation as hard as it may be. It's really our fault that these things are happening. We need to get out in the world and right these wrongs.

To answer your question in conclusion, I doubt there are many people in the world who have heard about Jesus. But what happens to the kid who was raised in Subsaharran Africa who never heard about Jesus? I dunno. That just shows the Christians we need to reach out to these people.

I just know what I need to do, and I do it.

It is not a choice if the only other option is suffer in eternal hellfire.
That's someone holding a gun to your head.
I miss the old members.
tornshoe92
Posts: 361
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1/17/2011 8:24:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/17/2011 8:12:22 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
Ok, whenver I preach, I hear all this stuff from atheists like ALL THE TIME. I kinda get tired of repeating myself, but here goes!

Ok, God gives us CHOICE. We choose if we wanna go to heaven or hell. Period. The end. However, no matter what you pick, God wins in the end. Again, period. The end.

God wanted us to be with Him and all happy, but God LOVES us enough to give us free will. God doesn't MAKE these bad things happen. That shows that he loves us so much that he wants us to choose. If he made us love him, that wouldn't be real love. That just shows me how awesome my God is!

So we hear about babies being aborted or wars or disease, but we need to remember who started this. No, it wasn't Satan because we can always say no to temptation as hard as it may be. It's really our fault that these things are happening. We need to get out in the world and right these wrongs.

To answer your question in conclusion, I doubt there are many people in the world who have heard about Jesus. But what happens to the kid who was raised in Subsaharran Africa who never heard about Jesus? I dunno. That just shows the Christians we need to reach out to these people.

I just know what I need to do, and I do it.

The problem is, it isn't really choice. If I were to say right now that I accept Jesus and believe in God then I would be lying to myself and (should he/she exist) God. I have heard of Jesus unlike the sub-Saharran kid, but because of how I was raised or some other factor, I can't wholeheartedly believe in something that is faith-based.

In response to C_N: I see your point, because I have unfortunately not done near as much research as I would like to I guess I have just assumed that other people were correct in saying that the modern idea of God (mostly talking about the Christian God) is a being who is completely "good".
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N
Charles0103
Posts: 523
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1/17/2011 8:35:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
It's not all faith based. There are many, many facts that Jesus was ressurected.

And you're right, you can't lie about being converted. You have to mean it.
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/17/2011 8:38:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/17/2011 8:35:09 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
It's not all faith based. There are many, many facts that Jesus was ressurected.


Beyond, people said it, and wrote it down.... what are they?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Charles0103
Posts: 523
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1/17/2011 8:41:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Haha. It's the post post debate!

Err I think I summed up everything in our debate. There's more proof for Jesus's existence (like from a Christian point of view, him being the messiah and all) than there is for Alexander the Great who had one real biography about him written 400 years after his death.

I mean, the gospels are 4 seperate biographies, plus the writings of Paul, and the opinions of hundreds of others. What more do you need?
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
tornshoe92
Posts: 361
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1/17/2011 8:45:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/17/2011 8:35:09 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
It's not all faith based. There are many, many facts that Jesus was ressurected.

And you're right, you can't lie about being converted. You have to mean it.

Actually I've been reading Lee Strobel's "Case for Christ" and watched some of his videos where he talks about evidence for the resurrection and it was mostly hearsay and reasoning that because a large group of people believed it that it's true.
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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1/17/2011 8:47:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/17/2011 8:45:03 PM, tornshoe92 wrote:
At 1/17/2011 8:35:09 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
It's not all faith based. There are many, many facts that Jesus was ressurected.

And you're right, you can't lie about being converted. You have to mean it.

Actually I've been reading Lee Strobel's "Case for Christ" and watched some of his videos where he talks about evidence for the resurrection and it was mostly hearsay and reasoning that because a large group of people believed it that it's true.

Really? What page(s) is that argued on?
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tornshoe92
Posts: 361
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1/17/2011 8:48:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/17/2011 8:41:51 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
Haha. It's the post post debate!

Err I think I summed up everything in our debate. There's more proof for Jesus's existence (like from a Christian point of view, him being the messiah and all) than there is for Alexander the Great who had one real biography about him written 400 years after his death.

I mean, the gospels are 4 seperate biographies, plus the writings of Paul, and the opinions of hundreds of others. What more do you need?

It's not a question of Jesus' existence, in fact that has nothing at all with what my OP was about. However, the doubt is over whether Jesus A) performed miracles and B) was the son of God.
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N
tornshoe92
Posts: 361
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1/17/2011 8:51:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/17/2011 8:47:00 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 1/17/2011 8:45:03 PM, tornshoe92 wrote:
At 1/17/2011 8:35:09 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
It's not all faith based. There are many, many facts that Jesus was ressurected.

And you're right, you can't lie about being converted. You have to mean it.

Actually I've been reading Lee Strobel's "Case for Christ" and watched some of his videos where he talks about evidence for the resurrection and it was mostly hearsay and reasoning that because a large group of people believed it that it's true.

Really? What page(s) is that argued on?

Haven't gotten too far into his book but here's a video of him.
"Next time I see a little old lady going to church I am going kick her in the ovaries because she is personally responsible for this. Thanks Izbo." -C_N
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/17/2011 9:00:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/17/2011 8:35:09 PM, Charles0103 wrote:
It's not all faith based. There are many, many facts that Jesus was ressurected.

And you're right, you can't lie about being converted. You have to mean it.

I know I'm going to shoot myself in the head for handing you a link to this debate that is still in the voting process... Especially if you end up voting against me, but....

http://www.debate.org...

The point of this debate is to determine whether there is enough evidence to consider the resurrection historical fact.

I contend that there isn't. This is something that lies in the realm of faith.

But there certainly isn't enough evidence to support the resurrection as a historical fact. There is plenty of reasonable doubt.

Anyway, I do not care for religion that uses blatant coercion to get people to believe it. Saying if you don't believe, you are going to burn in flames for all eternity is a threat. Saying if you do believe, you are going to spend eternity with god in bliss is bribery.

On top of that, biblical claims tend to be unbelievable... Which um... Makes it kind of unreasonable to expect people to just believe it.
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