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There's no reason as to why we have eyes.

Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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10/25/2016 10:32:53 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
We can only discover *how* we have eyes. But to say that we know why we have eyes means presupposing purposiveness. Mindless processes can't grant things purposiveness because they themselves are not a means towards any end. This includes evolution. So basically, objectively, your eye's purpose is to help you to see just as much as it is to help you to not see.
Skeptical1
Posts: 693
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10/25/2016 11:03:20 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/25/2016 10:32:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
We can only discover *how* we have eyes. But to say that we know why we have eyes means presupposing purposiveness. Mindless processes can't grant things purposiveness because they themselves are not a means towards any end. This includes evolution. So basically, objectively, your eye's purpose is to help you to see just as much as it is to help you to not see.

Assuming purposiveness to be the same as purpose, even single-celled organisms which have no brain (and therefore, presumably, are "mindless") take actions designed to promote their survival. Perhaps that is their "purpose".

However, in a very real sense you are correct. Evolution does not claim "purpose". This is commonly misunderstood. It's not like a small creature is born with a mutation that gives it a longer neck, which allows it access to more food, so it somehow "decides" that a longer neck is good, and therefore passes this trait on to its progeny.

It's more that this "mutated" specimen has a higher chance of survival (because it has access to more food), and therefore is more likely to survive to pass on its mutated gene. That's how evolution works. It's not, as you point out, a conscious choice exhibiting "purpose".
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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10/25/2016 11:13:10 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/25/2016 10:32:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
We can only discover *how* we have eyes. But to say that we know why we have eyes means presupposing purposiveness.

You mean like claiming eyes are a God given gift for the purpose of seeing God in all his glory, for example?

Mindless processes can't grant things purposiveness because they themselves are not a means towards any end. This includes evolution.

The means towards and end would be a predator hunting a prey in order to eat and survive, its one instinctive purpose. This is certainly not a mindless process of selection through nature.

So basically, objectively, your eye's purpose is to help you to see just as much as it is to help you to not see.

I have no idea what that even means.
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dee-em
Posts: 6,476
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10/26/2016 12:17:41 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/25/2016 10:32:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
We can only discover *how* we have eyes. But to say that we know why we have eyes means presupposing purposiveness.

True enough.

Mindless processes can't grant things purposiveness because they themselves are not a means towards any end. This includes evolution.

True enough.

So basically, objectively, your eye's purpose is to help you to see just as much as it is to help you to not see.

Non sequitur. You just finished explaining the lack of purpose, then you make a nonsensical statement where you assume purpose.

The usual garbage from a poster who appears to only ever want to play childish word games.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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10/26/2016 5:51:05 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
Yet another nonsense thread from Ben, having run away from his last nonsense thread with points unanswered. And the one before that. And the one before that. Ad nauseum.
Willows
Posts: 2,063
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10/26/2016 9:24:07 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/25/2016 10:32:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
We can only discover *how* we have eyes. But to say that we know why we have eyes means presupposing purposiveness. Mindless processes can't grant things purposiveness because they themselves are not a means towards any end. This includes evolution. So basically, objectively, your eye's purpose is to help you to see just as much as it is to help you to not see.

Did you consider the lobster telephone?
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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10/26/2016 9:29:42 AM
Posted: 1 month ago


So basically, objectively, your eye's purpose is to help you to see just as much as it is to help you to not see.

I have no idea what that even means.

I could be wrong, but I think this is another way of saying they have no purpose. How can something have contradictory purposes?
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
dee-em
Posts: 6,476
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10/26/2016 11:10:49 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 9:29:42 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:


So basically, objectively, your eye's purpose is to help you to see just as much as it is to help you to not see.

I have no idea what that even means.

I could be wrong, but I think this is another way of saying they have no purpose.

He had already made that case.

How can something have contradictory purposes?

It can't. So why try to establish a contradiction by assuming purpose (already argued to not exist) and then asserting some meaningless nonsense?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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10/26/2016 11:28:59 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/25/2016 10:32:53 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
We can only discover *how* we have eyes. But to say that we know why we have eyes means presupposing purposiveness. Mindless processes can't grant things purposiveness because they themselves are not a means towards any end. This includes evolution. So basically, objectively, your eye's purpose is to help you to see just as much as it is to help you to not see.

I do not see a useful delineation between "how" and"why" here. What is the difference?

There is a mechanism in nature that produces and propagates eyes etc. called evolution. Just as there are mechanisms in nature which produces lightning, earthquakes and landslides.

Playing word games with "how" and "why" is of little to no relevance here.
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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10/26/2016 3:14:14 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 11:28:59 AM, Envisage wrote:

Playing word games with "how" and "why" is of little to no relevance here.

You have just defined Benny.
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