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Why I No Longer Believe In Christianity

Iredia
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10/26/2016 8:34:06 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
1) It doesn't make sense to kill an innocent person to forgive other people. Unconditional love shouldn't come with conditions and as such forgiveness should be freely given. After I realised this Jesus' death on the cross no longer held the significance I once gave to it.

2) The Bible contains discrepancies. I believe atheists have done a good job of pointing them out. Just Google 'Bible contradictions'.

3) The Bible is supposed to be the perfect, infallible word of God and yet it in the OT it contains lots of laws that don't make sense.

4) The Christian God is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving and yet he cursed all innocent people to death for one man's mistake. Wiped out entire populations, including innocent babies in a flood, because of sin, wiped out multiple tribes who worshipped other gods, sends lots of people to hell for eternity for not worshipping him etc. This is not benevolent nor loving. It is barbaric and sadistic.

5) There is no incontrovertible evidence for the Christian God. While I do believe there is good evidence for God such evidence only suggests a generic Creator God. Jumping from that to the God of a religion requires additional evidence for that religions claims.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
janesix
Posts: 3,460
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10/26/2016 8:38:58 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 8:34:06 PM, Iredia wrote:
1) It doesn't make sense to kill an innocent person to forgive other people. Unconditional love shouldn't come with conditions and as such forgiveness should be freely given. After I realised this Jesus' death on the cross no longer held the significance I once gave to it.

2) The Bible contains discrepancies. I believe atheists have done a good job of pointing them out. Just Google 'Bible contradictions'.

3) The Bible is supposed to be the perfect, infallible word of God and yet it in the OT it contains lots of laws that don't make sense.

4) The Christian God is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving and yet he cursed all innocent people to death for one man's mistake. Wiped out entire populations, including innocent babies in a flood, because of sin, wiped out multiple tribes who worshipped other gods, sends lots of people to hell for eternity for not worshipping him etc. This is not benevolent nor loving. It is barbaric and sadistic.

5) There is no incontrovertible evidence for the Christian God. While I do believe there is good evidence for God such evidence only suggests a generic Creator God. Jumping from that to the God of a religion requires additional evidence for that religions claims.

What evidence for a creator God?
Iredia
Posts: 1,608
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10/26/2016 8:42:49 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 8:38:58 PM, janesix wrote:
At 10/26/2016 8:34:06 PM, Iredia wrote:
1) It doesn't make sense to kill an innocent person to forgive other people. Unconditional love shouldn't come with conditions and as such forgiveness should be freely given. After I realised this Jesus' death on the cross no longer held the significance I once gave to it.

2) The Bible contains discrepancies. I believe atheists have done a good job of pointing them out. Just Google 'Bible contradictions'.

3) The Bible is supposed to be the perfect, infallible word of God and yet it in the OT it contains lots of laws that don't make sense.

4) The Christian God is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving and yet he cursed all innocent people to death for one man's mistake. Wiped out entire populations, including innocent babies in a flood, because of sin, wiped out multiple tribes who worshipped other gods, sends lots of people to hell for eternity for not worshipping him etc. This is not benevolent nor loving. It is barbaric and sadistic.

5) There is no incontrovertible evidence for the Christian God. While I do believe there is good evidence for God such evidence only suggests a generic Creator God. Jumping from that to the God of a religion requires additional evidence for that religions claims.

What evidence for a creator God?

There are 3 lines of evidence that suggest a Creator God. The last 2 are very strong evidence.

1) The fine-tuning of the universe
2) The genetic code in all lifeforms
3) Consciousness, particularly in humans
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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10/26/2016 9:03:47 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 8:42:49 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 10/26/2016 8:38:58 PM, janesix wrote:
At 10/26/2016 8:34:06 PM, Iredia wrote:
1) It doesn't make sense to kill an innocent person to forgive other people. Unconditional love shouldn't come with conditions and as such forgiveness should be freely given. After I realised this Jesus' death on the cross no longer held the significance I once gave to it.

2) The Bible contains discrepancies. I believe atheists have done a good job of pointing them out. Just Google 'Bible contradictions'.

3) The Bible is supposed to be the perfect, infallible word of God and yet it in the OT it contains lots of laws that don't make sense.

4) The Christian God is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving and yet he cursed all innocent people to death for one man's mistake. Wiped out entire populations, including innocent babies in a flood, because of sin, wiped out multiple tribes who worshipped other gods, sends lots of people to hell for eternity for not worshipping him etc. This is not benevolent nor loving. It is barbaric and sadistic.

5) There is no incontrovertible evidence for the Christian God. While I do believe there is good evidence for God such evidence only suggests a generic Creator God. Jumping from that to the God of a religion requires additional evidence for that religions claims.

What evidence for a creator God?

There are 3 lines of evidence that suggest a Creator God. The last 2 are very strong evidence.

1) The fine-tuning of the universe
2) The genetic code in all lifeforms
3) Consciousness, particularly in humans

Well, that is a massive failure, none of those things are evidence of any gods, the first one is entirely false, it is propaganda from Christian apologetics.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
PGA
Posts: 4,045
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10/26/2016 10:15:13 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 8:34:06 PM, Iredia wrote:
1) It doesn't make sense to kill an innocent person to forgive other people. Unconditional love shouldn't come with conditions and as such forgiveness should be freely given. After I realised this Jesus' death on the cross no longer held the significance I once gave to it.

God does not kill innocent beings without restoring their life to a better existence.

Jesus was a necessary sacrifice, the only human being who lived a perfect life before God and willingly took the punishment for our disobedience so that we could be restored to a relationship with God. In this way God's righteousness and God's justice was met in the one Person.

2) The Bible contains discrepancies. I believe atheists have done a good job of pointing them out. Just Google 'Bible contradictions'.

They are apparent contradictions that have logical answers. J.P Holding, for one, has refuted many of these supposed contradictions with answers that do not violate logic.

3) The Bible is supposed to be the perfect, infallible word of God and yet it in the OT it contains lots of laws that don't make sense.

They make sense to the culture and to the people they were written for. God chose a people to make Himself known to the world through and through whom He would send the Messiah. History at that time was a lot different from our times. Look up ANE (Ancient Near Eastern Laws) and you will get an idea.

4) The Christian God is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving and yet he cursed all innocent people to death for one man's mistake. Wiped out entire populations, including innocent babies in a flood, because of sin, wiped out multiple tribes who worshipped other gods, sends lots of people to hell for eternity for not worshipping him etc. This is not benevolent nor loving. It is barbaric and sadistic.

God is benevolent and loving yet He is also just. How would God be good if He did not address and punish sin or wrongful action? Besides this, how do you get "good" without an objective standard and measure? Who decides? It is you? No thank you.

5) There is no incontrovertible evidence for the Christian God. While I do believe there is good evidence for God such evidence only suggests a generic Creator God. Jumping from that to the God of a religion requires additional evidence for that religions claims.

I believe you are wrong. There are many irrefutable proofs.

How do you make sense of existence without first presupposing God. Try.

Next, He has given us His Word. Prophecy is just one confirmation that He knows the end from the beginning with 100% accuracy. Do you know of any human being (barring Jesus) who can tell you the future before it happens and it happens exactly as that person said it would. Name one. If you care to dispute this then we can discuss prophecy and see whose views are more logical and more consistent, yours or mine. I'm game.

Either you take His Word (for it claims to be God's revelation of Himself to mankind) as you highest form of authority or you place some relative, subjective authority in His place. Why is your subjective authority the final say on what is and what is not and why is this so?

Peter
Iredia
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10/26/2016 10:36:21 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 9:03:47 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 10/26/2016 8:42:49 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 10/26/2016 8:38:58 PM, janesix wrote:
At 10/26/2016 8:34:06 PM, Iredia wrote:
1) It doesn't make sense to kill an innocent person to forgive other people. Unconditional love shouldn't come with conditions and as such forgiveness should be freely given. After I realised this Jesus' death on the cross no longer held the significance I once gave to it.

2) The Bible contains discrepancies. I believe atheists have done a good job of pointing them out. Just Google 'Bible contradictions'.

3) The Bible is supposed to be the perfect, infallible word of God and yet it in the OT it contains lots of laws that don't make sense.

4) The Christian God is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving and yet he cursed all innocent people to death for one man's mistake. Wiped out entire populations, including innocent babies in a flood, because of sin, wiped out multiple tribes who worshipped other gods, sends lots of people to hell for eternity for not worshipping him etc. This is not benevolent nor loving. It is barbaric and sadistic.

5) There is no incontrovertible evidence for the Christian God. While I do believe there is good evidence for God such evidence only suggests a generic Creator God. Jumping from that to the God of a religion requires additional evidence for that religions claims.

What evidence for a creator God?

There are 3 lines of evidence that suggest a Creator God. The last 2 are very strong evidence.

1) The fine-tuning of the universe
2) The genetic code in all lifeforms
3) Consciousness, particularly in humans

Well, that is a massive failure, none of those things are evidence of any gods, the first one is entirely false, it is propaganda from Christian apologetics.

They are evidence in fact. And the fine-tuning of the universe is widely known by physicists.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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10/26/2016 10:40:18 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 10:36:21 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 10/26/2016 9:03:47 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 10/26/2016 8:42:49 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 10/26/2016 8:38:58 PM, janesix wrote:
At 10/26/2016 8:34:06 PM, Iredia wrote:
1) It doesn't make sense to kill an innocent person to forgive other people. Unconditional love shouldn't come with conditions and as such forgiveness should be freely given. After I realised this Jesus' death on the cross no longer held the significance I once gave to it.

2) The Bible contains discrepancies. I believe atheists have done a good job of pointing them out. Just Google 'Bible contradictions'.

3) The Bible is supposed to be the perfect, infallible word of God and yet it in the OT it contains lots of laws that don't make sense.

4) The Christian God is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving and yet he cursed all innocent people to death for one man's mistake. Wiped out entire populations, including innocent babies in a flood, because of sin, wiped out multiple tribes who worshipped other gods, sends lots of people to hell for eternity for not worshipping him etc. This is not benevolent nor loving. It is barbaric and sadistic.

5) There is no incontrovertible evidence for the Christian God. While I do believe there is good evidence for God such evidence only suggests a generic Creator God. Jumping from that to the God of a religion requires additional evidence for that religions claims.

What evidence for a creator God?

There are 3 lines of evidence that suggest a Creator God. The last 2 are very strong evidence.

1) The fine-tuning of the universe
2) The genetic code in all lifeforms
3) Consciousness, particularly in humans

Well, that is a massive failure, none of those things are evidence of any gods, the first one is entirely false, it is propaganda from Christian apologetics.

They are evidence in fact. And the fine-tuning of the universe is widely known by physicists.

Sorry, not true.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
janesix
Posts: 3,460
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10/26/2016 10:44:20 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 10:15:13 PM, PGA wrote:
At 10/26/2016 8:34:06 PM, Iredia wrote:
1) It doesn't make sense to kill an innocent person to forgive other people. Unconditional love shouldn't come with conditions and as such forgiveness should be freely given. After I realised this Jesus' death on the cross no longer held the significance I once gave to it.

God does not kill innocent beings without restoring their life to a better existence.

Jesus was a necessary sacrifice, the only human being who lived a perfect life before God and willingly took the punishment for our disobedience so that we could be restored to a relationship with God. In this way God's righteousness and God's justice was met in the one Person.

2) The Bible contains discrepancies. I believe atheists have done a good job of pointing them out. Just Google 'Bible contradictions'.

They are apparent contradictions that have logical answers. J.P Holding, for one, has refuted many of these supposed contradictions with answers that do not violate logic.

3) The Bible is supposed to be the perfect, infallible word of God and yet it in the OT it contains lots of laws that don't make sense.

They make sense to the culture and to the people they were written for. God chose a people to make Himself known to the world through and through whom He would send the Messiah. History at that time was a lot different from our times. Look up ANE (Ancient Near Eastern Laws) and you will get an idea.

4) The Christian God is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving and yet he cursed all innocent people to death for one man's mistake. Wiped out entire populations, including innocent babies in a flood, because of sin, wiped out multiple tribes who worshipped other gods, sends lots of people to hell for eternity for not worshipping him etc. This is not benevolent nor loving. It is barbaric and sadistic.

God is benevolent and loving yet He is also just. How would God be good if He did not address and punish sin or wrongful action? Besides this, how do you get "good" without an objective standard and measure? Who decides? It is you? No thank you.

5) There is no incontrovertible evidence for the Christian God. While I do believe there is good evidence for God such evidence only suggests a generic Creator God. Jumping from that to the God of a religion requires additional evidence for that religions claims.

I believe you are wrong. There are many irrefutable proofs.

How do you make sense of existence without first presupposing God. Try.

Next, He has given us His Word. Prophecy is just one confirmation that He knows the end from the beginning with 100% accuracy. Do you know of any human being (barring Jesus) who can tell you the future before it happens and it happens exactly as that person said it would. Name one. If you care to dispute this then we can discuss prophecy and see whose views are more logical and more consistent, yours or mine. I'm game.

Either you take His Word (for it claims to be God's revelation of Himself to mankind) as you highest form of authority or you place some relative, subjective authority in His place. Why is your subjective authority the final say on what is and what is not and why is this so?

Peter

How does god punish sin?
loveymore
Posts: 64
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10/26/2016 11:04:37 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
If you gave significance to it, I'd be cautious not seeing Satan around, underestimating his presence.

If that's the case he is playing some tricks on you.
PGA
Posts: 4,045
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10/26/2016 11:49:07 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 10:44:20 PM, janesix wrote:
At 10/26/2016 10:15:13 PM, PGA wrote:
At 10/26/2016 8:34:06 PM, Iredia wrote:
1) It doesn't make sense to kill an innocent person to forgive other people. Unconditional love shouldn't come with conditions and as such forgiveness should be freely given. After I realised this Jesus' death on the cross no longer held the significance I once gave to it.

God does not kill innocent beings without restoring their life to a better existence.

Jesus was a necessary sacrifice, the only human being who lived a perfect life before God and willingly took the punishment for our disobedience so that we could be restored to a relationship with God. In this way God's righteousness and God's justice was met in the one Person.

2) The Bible contains discrepancies. I believe atheists have done a good job of pointing them out. Just Google 'Bible contradictions'.

They are apparent contradictions that have logical answers. J.P Holding, for one, has refuted many of these supposed contradictions with answers that do not violate logic.

3) The Bible is supposed to be the perfect, infallible word of God and yet it in the OT it contains lots of laws that don't make sense.

They make sense to the culture and to the people they were written for. God chose a people to make Himself known to the world through and through whom He would send the Messiah. History at that time was a lot different from our times. Look up ANE (Ancient Near Eastern Laws) and you will get an idea.

4) The Christian God is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving and yet he cursed all innocent people to death for one man's mistake. Wiped out entire populations, including innocent babies in a flood, because of sin, wiped out multiple tribes who worshipped other gods, sends lots of people to hell for eternity for not worshipping him etc. This is not benevolent nor loving. It is barbaric and sadistic.

God is benevolent and loving yet He is also just. How would God be good if He did not address and punish sin or wrongful action? Besides this, how do you get "good" without an objective standard and measure? Who decides? It is you? No thank you.

5) There is no incontrovertible evidence for the Christian God. While I do believe there is good evidence for God such evidence only suggests a generic Creator God. Jumping from that to the God of a religion requires additional evidence for that religions claims.

I believe you are wrong. There are many irrefutable proofs.

How do you make sense of existence without first presupposing God. Try.

Next, He has given us His Word. Prophecy is just one confirmation that He knows the end from the beginning with 100% accuracy. Do you know of any human being (barring Jesus) who can tell you the future before it happens and it happens exactly as that person said it would. Name one. If you care to dispute this then we can discuss prophecy and see whose views are more logical and more consistent, yours or mine. I'm game.

Either you take His Word (for it claims to be God's revelation of Himself to mankind) as you highest form of authority or you place some relative, subjective authority in His place. Why is your subjective authority the final say on what is and what is not and why is this so?

Peter

How does god punish sin?

He punishes it either in His Son who willingly took our punishment (for those who put their faith in Him) or He separates the sinner from His presence in judgment.

Peter
Hiu
Posts: 989
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10/26/2016 11:54:13 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
I do not subscribe to the tenants of the Christian faith for the following reasons:

1) Today's Christians are poor examples of God's love (e.g. many evangelicals like to circumvent cultures to place theirs without respecting it.

2) As the OP states, I cannot ultimately receive eternal life which is the ultimate love, without the condition of belief. God loves me up until death, and then casts me in the depths of hell.

3) Christianity has influenced a lot of pain and suffering for a lot of people across the world
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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10/26/2016 11:58:46 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 10:15:13 PM, PGA wrote:

Either you take His Word (for it claims to be God's revelation of Himself to mankind) as you highest form of authority

You mean the words of men claiming to speak for god.

or you place some relative, subjective authority [...]

Hey, that's exactly what the Bible is! ;-)

Why is your subjective authority the final say on what is and what is not and why is this so?

Answer your own question.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
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10/27/2016 12:02:47 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 8:34:06 PM, Iredia wrote:
1) It doesn't make sense to kill an innocent person to forgive other people. Unconditional love shouldn't come with conditions and as such forgiveness should be freely given. After I realised this Jesus' death on the cross no longer held the significance I once gave to it.

2) The Bible contains discrepancies. I believe atheists have done a good job of pointing them out. Just Google 'Bible contradictions'.

3) The Bible is supposed to be the perfect, infallible word of God and yet it in the OT it contains lots of laws that don't make sense.

4) The Christian God is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving and yet he cursed all innocent people to death for one man's mistake. Wiped out entire populations, including innocent babies in a flood, because of sin, wiped out multiple tribes who worshipped other gods, sends lots of people to hell for eternity for not worshipping him etc. This is not benevolent nor loving. It is barbaric and sadistic.

5) There is no incontrovertible evidence for the Christian God. While I do believe there is good evidence for God such evidence only suggests a generic Creator God. Jumping from that to the God of a religion requires additional evidence for that religions claims.

With exception to the second sentence of point 5, I have found the same things to be true.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
PGA
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10/27/2016 12:41:07 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 11:58:46 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/26/2016 10:15:13 PM, PGA wrote:

Either you take His Word (for it claims to be God's revelation of Himself to mankind) as you highest form of authority

You mean the words of men claiming to speak for god.

No, I don't. You mean that.

I mean God's revelation of Himself using men in that revelation.

or you place some relative, subjective authority [...]

Hey, that's exactly what the Bible is! ;-)

That is what it is to you, what you make it to be. My authority is not relative or subjective.

God uses subjective humans filled and inspired with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to reveal Himself to mankind.

Why is your subjective authority the final say on what is and what is not and why is this so?

Answer your own question.

God is not a subjective authority. I look to His guidance and leading.

Peter
Jerry947
Posts: 778
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10/27/2016 12:42:45 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 8:34:06 PM, Iredia wrote:
1) It doesn't make sense to kill an innocent person to forgive other people. Unconditional love shouldn't come with conditions and as such forgiveness should be freely given. After I realised this Jesus' death on the cross no longer held the significance I once gave to it.

The Bible says that the wages of sin is death. Sin cannot just be forgiven. Something had to pay the price for humanity's wickedness. Jesus happened to be the one who took the bullet for us.

2) The Bible contains discrepancies. I believe atheists have done a good job of pointing them out. Just Google 'Bible contradictions'.

3) The Bible is supposed to be the perfect, infallible word of God and yet it in the OT it contains lots of laws that don't make sense.

Well, this is expected since we live in an entirely different culture so many years later.

4) The Christian God is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving and yet he cursed all innocent people to death for one man's mistake. Wiped out entire populations, including innocent babies in a flood, because of sin, wiped out multiple tribes who worshipped other gods, sends lots of people to hell for eternity for not worshipping him etc. This is not benevolent nor loving. It is barbaric and sadistic.

Mankind cursed themselves through that one mans sin (not mistake). But the Bible also offers salvation through the one man Christ Jesus. One man condemned the world through his actions and one man came later and offered to save it.

5) There is no incontrovertible evidence for the Christian God. While I do believe there is good evidence for God such evidence only suggests a generic Creator God. Jumping from that to the God of a religion requires additional evidence for that religions claims.

What kind God do you think the evidence points to?

Have you studied the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus?
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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10/27/2016 1:04:18 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
Never knew you were a Christian to begin with.
At 10/26/2016 8:34:06 PM, Iredia wrote:
1) It doesn't make sense to kill an innocent person to forgive other people. Unconditional love shouldn't come with conditions and as such forgiveness should be freely given. After I realised this Jesus' death on the cross no longer held the significance I once gave to it.

From your ethical standpoint maybe. God could have his own seemingly arbitrary measure of 'good' where this is the case though. Of course this means that you could replace 'killing an innocent' with virtually any act and it would make as much sense.

The fact that this defence has nothing inherently incorrect about it is one reason why I consider myself a moral nihilist.

2) The Bible contains discrepancies. I believe atheists have done a good job of pointing them out. Just Google 'Bible contradictions'.

Atheists had little to do with this. The scholars who do most work on these are themselves Christian. It's where an entire field of apologetics stemmed from.

3) The Bible is supposed to be the perfect, infallible word of God and yet it in the OT it contains lots of laws that don't make sense.

Do they have to make sense to you for them to be true? So long as they are logically consistent, then you have no objective grounds to dispute it. Although I am sure it is arguable they are not logically consistent?

4) The Christian God is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving and yet he cursed all innocent people to death for one man's mistake. Wiped out entire populations, including innocent babies in a flood, because of sin, wiped out multiple tribes who worshipped other gods, sends lots of people to hell for eternity for not worshipping him etc. This is not benevolent nor loving. It is barbaric and sadistic.

Cf. Moral Nihilism.

5) There is no incontrovertible evidence for the Christian God. While I do believe there is good evidence for God such evidence only suggests a generic Creator God. Jumping from that to the God of a religion requires additional evidence for that religions claims.

I spoke to some Jehovahs witnesses yesterday who made the generic arguments and I raised this same point. I can't remember their response though.
Skepticalone
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10/27/2016 1:28:43 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/27/2016 12:41:07 AM, PGA wrote:
At 10/26/2016 11:58:46 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/26/2016 10:15:13 PM, PGA wrote:

Either you take His Word (for it claims to be God's revelation of Himself to mankind) as you highest form of authority

You mean the words of men claiming to speak for god.

No, I don't. You mean that.

I mean God's revelation of Himself using men in that revelation.

That's what you want to mean. The reality is men wrote the Bible and claimed to be speaking for god (that's true no matter your view of the Bible). The ignorance, misogyny, intolerance suggest the loving, just, omnipotent god described in its pages had little or nothing to do with its authorship.

or you place some relative, subjective authority [...]

Hey, that's exactly what the Bible is! ;-)

That is what it is to you, what you make it to be. My authority is not relative or subjective.

So you assert.

God uses subjective humans filled and inspired with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to reveal Himself to mankind.

So you assert.

Why is your subjective authority the final say on what is and what is not and why is this so?

Answer your own question.

God is not a subjective authority. I look to His guidance and leading.

Unfortunately, many times the only thing shared by those being "lead by god" is their claim that they're being lead by god. So either god is yanking believers chains and telling them completely contradictory things or revelation sucks as a method of acquiring knowledge. The latter is definitely true - I'll let you work out the former.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,609
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10/27/2016 1:47:55 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/27/2016 12:42:45 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
One man condemned the world through his actions and one man came later and offered to save it.

While you sum that up so eloquently, simple and bold, I can never get my head wrapped around the concept. It is just so utterly bizarre, makes no sense at all. I keep asking wtf, but there's never a coherent, understandable explanation forthcoming.

It starts with that one inexplicable quandary and erupts from there with no end to the magic and wonder, the illogical and irrational lame excuses that do little more than a hand wave in a hurricane.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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10/27/2016 2:07:57 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 11:04:37 PM, loveymore wrote:
If you gave significance to it, I'd be cautious not seeing Satan around, underestimating his presence.

If that's the case he is playing some tricks on you.
hahahaha the boogeyman cometh, quick under the bedclothes hahahahahaha
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
PGA
Posts: 4,045
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10/27/2016 3:52:12 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/27/2016 1:28:43 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2016 12:41:07 AM, PGA wrote:
At 10/26/2016 11:58:46 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/26/2016 10:15:13 PM, PGA wrote:

Either you take His Word (for it claims to be God's revelation of Himself to mankind) as you highest form of authority

You mean the words of men claiming to speak for god.

No, I don't. You mean that.

I mean God's revelation of Himself using men in that revelation.

That's what you want to mean. The reality is men wrote the Bible and claimed to be speaking for god (that's true no matter your view of the Bible).

The Bible witnesses to God. It claims to be His revelation. You either accept it as that or you put another authority in its place (Hebrews 11:6). Either way there is astounding evidence to believe it.

The ignorance, misogyny, intolerance suggest the loving, just, omnipotent god described in its pages had little or nothing to do with its authorship.

God is intolerant of sin and judges it. These were wicked nations that were judged.

or you place some relative, subjective authority [...]

Hey, that's exactly what the Bible is! ;-)

That is what it is to you, what you make it to be. My authority is not relative or subjective.

So you assert.

And you assert the opposite.

God uses subjective humans filled and inspired with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to reveal Himself to mankind.

So you assert.

As you do too.

Why is your subjective authority the final say on what is and what is not and why is this so?

Answer your own question.

God is not a subjective authority. I look to His guidance and leading.

Unfortunately, many times the only thing shared by those being "lead by god" is their claim that they're being lead by god. So either god is yanking believers chains and telling them completely contradictory things or revelation sucks as a method of acquiring knowledge. The latter is definitely true - I'll let you work out the former.

Study to show yourself approved, a workman who correctly handles the word of truth is an admonition that Paul used for Timothy and I believe it is a lesson for us today also. A dispute over the word is handled by the word. God is perfectly capable of making Himself understood. You butchered His Word by taking all kinds of verses out of context in our debates. You misinterpreted the generation, the age, what the end meant, the audience of address, the time frame and a host of other issues. For our debate on Revelation you went on the highly disputed passage from Ireneaus regarding the date that futurists have built an entire interpretation upon. You totally ignored the content in context. I was debating with Annanicole on a thread a few weeks ago and mentioned there that one Bible commentary put the reference to OT passages at about 289 in Revelation. The book is about the last days of the Old Covenant. This was another point you totally ignored. You tried to import all kinds of ideas into the text to make it seem that it was speaking about a different time frame and different people to create doubt in the eyes of those reading the debate. There is no evidence for this from the text. You read it in. The text tells you exactly who is being spoken of. Not only this, every NT letter and Gospel speaks of an imminent warning to a 1st-century audience. God had constantly warned His covenant people to repent or He would judge them. There are all kinds of passages to the last days and the end of the age in the OT were God would put His laws within the hearts of the people and make a new covenant with them. This theme of warnings and judgment is something we barely touched on but the evidence is great and hard to dispute. These are stupid errors you made but I grant you that it took a long time for me to understand them also. It is quite possible that you were mislead into rejecting Christianity on the grounds of Dispensationalism because you never knew or bothered to examine the feasibility of the Preterist view. You also replaced the worship of God for idols. You have now placed yourself in the place of God, making judgments on God. Congratulations! How long do you think that is going to last, oh mighty Skepticalone?

Peter
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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10/27/2016 5:12:48 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/27/2016 3:52:12 AM, PGA wrote:
At 10/27/2016 1:28:43 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2016 12:41:07 AM, PGA wrote:
At 10/26/2016 11:58:46 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/26/2016 10:15:13 PM, PGA wrote:

Either you take His Word (for it claims to be God's revelation of Himself to mankind) as you highest form of authority

You mean the words of men claiming to speak for god.

No, I don't. You mean that.

I mean God's revelation of Himself using men in that revelation.

That's what you want to mean. The reality is men wrote the Bible and claimed to be speaking for god (that's true no matter your view of the Bible).

The Bible witnesses to God. It claims to be His revelation.

No, the bible doesn't make any claims - it is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by an omniscient god while spouting ignorance. It is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by a just god while laying out unjust laws. It is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by an omnipotent god who needed to flood the entire Earth to erase his mistakes.

You either accept it as that or you put another authority in its place (Hebrews 11:6). Either way there is astounding evidence to believe it.

The ignorance, misogyny, intolerance suggest the loving, just, omnipotent god described in its pages had little or nothing to do with its authorship.

God is intolerant of sin and judges it. These were wicked nations that were judged.

Even if your rebuttal was always true of the Biblical accounts of Yahweh (which it is not), you've not addressed the tendency to treat women as chattel or the ignorance rampant throughout the book of the Bible. These things are not kosher to the loving, just, and all knowing god concept pushed by the ancient writers.

or you place some relative, subjective authority [...]

Hey, that's exactly what the Bible is! ;-)

That is what it is to you, what you make it to be. My authority is not relative or subjective.

So you assert.

And you assert the opposite.

God uses subjective humans filled and inspired with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to reveal Himself to mankind.

So you assert.

As you do too.

I guess you don't know where to go when you cant appeal to authority, eh?

Why is your subjective authority the final say on what is and what is not and why is this so?

Answer your own question.

God is not a subjective authority. I look to His guidance and leading.

Unfortunately, many times the only thing shared by those being "lead by god" is their claim that they're being lead by god. So either god is yanking believers chains and telling them completely contradictory things or revelation sucks as a method of acquiring knowledge. The latter is definitely true - I'll let you work out the former.

Study to show yourself approved, a workman who correctly handles the word of truth is an admonition that Paul used for Timothy and I believe it is a lesson for us today also. A dispute over the word is handled by the word.

I read "a dispute over understanding the words of ancient men is handled by understanding the words of ancient men". It seems fairly circular, but I'll play along for a bit:

That might work to an extent if the words were perfectly preserved without additions, omissions, edits, and they were clearly expressed to begin with, but that is not the case. That might still work, if Christians were aware of the mistakes and the Bible was put back to it's original form (or as close as possible), but that hasn't been done because of a fondness of what the Bible says now - not necessarily what it was meant to say by the original authors. How many believers would accept removal of the woman caught in adultery story? Probably not many, but that story is not in the oldest texts - it was added later.

God is perfectly capable of making Himself understood. You butchered His Word by taking all kinds of verses out of context in our debates.

No, I didn't. I took the view of other Christians who have used the Bible to interpret the Bible (much like you claim to do). Lo and behold they have a different opinion! That's exactly my point. Revelation sucks as a method of knowledge acquisition - whether it be ancient or modern day.

The "god is not a subjective authority" argument is self refuting. In this case, "God" is claimed to avoid accountability under the pretense of accountability. At what point do you stop worrying about other people and consider how your own actions can be wrong or even harmful, Peter?

You misinterpreted the generation, the age, what the end meant, the audience of address, the time frame and a host of other issues. For our debate on Revelation you went on the highly disputed passage from Ireneaus regarding the date that futurists have built an entire interpretation upon. You totally ignored the content in context. I was debating with Annanicole on a thread a few weeks ago and mentioned there that one Bible commentary put the reference to OT passages at about 289 in Revelation. The book is about the last days of the Old Covenant. This was another point you totally ignored. You tried to import all kinds of ideas into the text to make it seem that it was speaking about a different time frame and different people to create doubt in the eyes of those reading the debate. There is no evidence for this from the text. You read it in. The text tells you exactly who is being spoken of. Not only this, every NT letter and Gospel speaks of an imminent warning to a 1st-century audience. God had constantly warned His covenant people to repent or He would judge them. There are all kinds of passages to the last days and the end of the age in the OT were God would put His laws within the hearts of the people and make a new covenant with them. This theme of warnings and judgment is something we barely touched on but the evidence is great and hard to dispute. These are stupid errors you made but I grant you that it took a long time for me to understand them also. It is quite possible that you were mislead into rejecting Christianity on the grounds of Dispensationalism because you never knew or bothered to examine the feasibility of the Preterist view. You also replaced the worship of God for idols. You have now placed yourself in the place of God, making judgments on God. Congratulations! How long do you think that is going to last, oh mighty Skepticalone?

As usual, you try to dodge criticism by changing the subject, but your rebuttal is heavy on tu quoque and light on defense.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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10/27/2016 5:41:58 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/27/2016 12:42:45 AM, Jerry947 wrote:
Have you studied the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus?
hahahahaha, there is none. What about the evidence for the zombie invasion of Jerusalem?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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10/27/2016 5:44:21 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/27/2016 3:52:12 AM, PGA wrote:
The Bible witnesses to God. It claims to be His revelation.
Prove it.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
imperialchimp
Posts: 234
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10/27/2016 8:37:16 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 8:34:06 PM, Iredia wrote:
1) It doesn't make sense to kill an innocent person to forgive other people. Unconditional love shouldn't come with conditions and as such forgiveness should be freely given. After I realised this Jesus' death on the cross no longer held the significance I once gave to it.

2) The Bible contains discrepancies. I believe atheists have done a good job of pointing them out. Just Google 'Bible contradictions'.

3) The Bible is supposed to be the perfect, infallible word of God and yet it in the OT it contains lots of laws that don't make sense.

4) The Christian God is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving and yet he cursed all innocent people to death for one man's mistake. Wiped out entire populations, including innocent babies in a flood, because of sin, wiped out multiple tribes who worshipped other gods, sends lots of people to hell for eternity for not worshipping him etc. This is not benevolent nor loving. It is barbaric and sadistic.

5) There is no incontrovertible evidence for the Christian God. While I do believe there is good evidence for God such evidence only suggests a generic Creator God. Jumping from that to the God of a religion requires additional evidence for that religions claims.

It originates from low-class people who were envious of their masters. Hence, the reason why poor people tend to be perfect for Christianity.
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
loveymore
Posts: 64
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10/27/2016 9:54:20 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/27/2016 5:12:48 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2016 3:52:12 AM, PGA wrote:
At 10/27/2016 1:28:43 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2016 12:41:07 AM, PGA wrote:
At 10/26/2016 11:58:46 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/26/2016 10:15:13 PM, PGA wrote:

Either you take His Word (for it claims to be God's revelation of Himself to mankind) as you highest form of authority

You mean the words of men claiming to speak for god.

No, I don't. You mean that.

I mean God's revelation of Himself using men in that revelation.

That's what you want to mean. The reality is men wrote the Bible and claimed to be speaking for god (that's true no matter your view of the Bible).

The Bible witnesses to God. It claims to be His revelation.

No, the bible doesn't make any claims - it is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by an omniscient god while spouting ignorance. It is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by a just god while laying out unjust laws. It is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by an omnipotent god who needed to flood the entire Earth to erase his mistakes.

God cannot be mistaken. If you want to take a note of spiritual things and look for it's guidance, you have to be spiritualy aimed. Psalm 43:3, by the means of described in Galatians 5.

For that one just cannot rely on ones own understanding, Proverbs 3:5, John 10:4.

Prophets were inspired by God, the difference is nicely described in the Book of Daniel, cap 2., or Jesus, the living example, Matthew 24.

A bit of quote from it:
"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man. "

Eliah's example is also good and many others.
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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10/27/2016 10:32:36 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/27/2016 9:54:20 AM, loveymore wrote:
At 10/27/2016 5:12:48 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2016 3:52:12 AM, PGA wrote:
At 10/27/2016 1:28:43 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2016 12:41:07 AM, PGA wrote:
At 10/26/2016 11:58:46 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/26/2016 10:15:13 PM, PGA wrote:

Either you take His Word (for it claims to be God's revelation of Himself to mankind) as you highest form of authority

You mean the words of men claiming to speak for god.

No, I don't. You mean that.

I mean God's revelation of Himself using men in that revelation.

That's what you want to mean. The reality is men wrote the Bible and claimed to be speaking for god (that's true no matter your view of the Bible).

The Bible witnesses to God. It claims to be His revelation.

No, the bible doesn't make any claims - it is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by an omniscient god while spouting ignorance. It is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by a just god while laying out unjust laws. It is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by an omnipotent god who needed to flood the entire Earth to erase his mistakes.

God cannot be mistaken. If you want to take a note of spiritual things and look for it's guidance, you have to be spiritualy aimed. Psalm 43:3, by the means of described in Galatians 5.

For that one just cannot rely on ones own understanding, Proverbs 3:5, John 10:4.


Prophets were inspired by God, the difference is nicely described in the Book of Daniel, cap 2., or Jesus, the living example, Matthew 24.

A bit of quote from it:
"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man. "

Eliah's example is also good and many others.
Your god doesn't exist and your book is a collection of myth and superstition.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
loveymore
Posts: 64
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10/27/2016 10:45:13 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/27/2016 10:32:36 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/27/2016 9:54:20 AM, loveymore wrote:
At 10/27/2016 5:12:48 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2016 3:52:12 AM, PGA wrote:
At 10/27/2016 1:28:43 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2016 12:41:07 AM, PGA wrote:
At 10/26/2016 11:58:46 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/26/2016 10:15:13 PM, PGA wrote:

Either you take His Word (for it claims to be God's revelation of Himself to mankind) as you highest form of authority

You mean the words of men claiming to speak for god.

No, I don't. You mean that.

I mean God's revelation of Himself using men in that revelation.

That's what you want to mean. The reality is men wrote the Bible and claimed to be speaking for god (that's true no matter your view of the Bible).

The Bible witnesses to God. It claims to be His revelation.

No, the bible doesn't make any claims - it is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by an omniscient god while spouting ignorance. It is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by a just god while laying out unjust laws. It is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by an omnipotent god who needed to flood the entire Earth to erase his mistakes.

God cannot be mistaken. If you want to take a note of spiritual things and look for it's guidance, you have to be spiritualy aimed. Psalm 43:3, by the means of described in Galatians 5.

For that one just cannot rely on ones own understanding, Proverbs 3:5, John 10:4.


Prophets were inspired by God, the difference is nicely described in the Book of Daniel, cap 2., or Jesus, the living example, Matthew 24.

A bit of quote from it:
"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man. "

Eliah's example is also good and many others.
Your god doesn't exist and your book is a collection of myth and superstition.

So do you care to back it up?
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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10/27/2016 10:50:48 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/27/2016 10:45:13 AM, loveymore wrote:
At 10/27/2016 10:32:36 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 10/27/2016 9:54:20 AM, loveymore wrote:
At 10/27/2016 5:12:48 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2016 3:52:12 AM, PGA wrote:
At 10/27/2016 1:28:43 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2016 12:41:07 AM, PGA wrote:
At 10/26/2016 11:58:46 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/26/2016 10:15:13 PM, PGA wrote:

Either you take His Word (for it claims to be God's revelation of Himself to mankind) as you highest form of authority

You mean the words of men claiming to speak for god.

No, I don't. You mean that.

I mean God's revelation of Himself using men in that revelation.

That's what you want to mean. The reality is men wrote the Bible and claimed to be speaking for god (that's true no matter your view of the Bible).

The Bible witnesses to God. It claims to be His revelation.

No, the bible doesn't make any claims - it is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by an omniscient god while spouting ignorance. It is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by a just god while laying out unjust laws. It is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by an omnipotent god who needed to flood the entire Earth to erase his mistakes.

God cannot be mistaken. If you want to take a note of spiritual things and look for it's guidance, you have to be spiritualy aimed. Psalm 43:3, by the means of described in Galatians 5.

For that one just cannot rely on ones own understanding, Proverbs 3:5, John 10:4.


Prophets were inspired by God, the difference is nicely described in the Book of Daniel, cap 2., or Jesus, the living example, Matthew 24.

A bit of quote from it:
"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only. And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man. "

Eliah's example is also good and many others.
Your god doesn't exist and your book is a collection of myth and superstition.

So do you care to back it up?
All of the evidence in support of my conclusions have been provided by godists over hundreds of thousands of years. Godists have no evidence to support their claims that gods exist, godists are the only creatures who make these unsupportable claims and so their claims must be rejected and the conclusion that gods don't exist is sustained.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
tarantula
Posts: 854
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10/27/2016 12:22:03 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/26/2016 8:34:06 PM, Iredia wrote:
1) It doesn't make sense to kill an innocent person to forgive other people. Unconditional love shouldn't come with conditions and as such forgiveness should be freely given. After I realised this Jesus' death on the cross no longer held the significance I once gave to it.

2) The Bible contains discrepancies. I believe atheists have done a good job of pointing them out. Just Google 'Bible contradictions'.

3) The Bible is supposed to be the perfect, infallible word of God and yet it in the OT it contains lots of laws that don't make sense.

4) The Christian God is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving and yet he cursed all innocent people to death for one man's mistake. Wiped out entire populations, including innocent babies in a flood, because of sin, wiped out multiple tribes who worshipped other gods, sends lots of people to hell for eternity for not worshipping him etc. This is not benevolent nor loving. It is barbaric and sadistic.

5) There is no incontrovertible evidence for the Christian God. While I do believe there is good evidence for God such evidence only suggests a generic Creator God. Jumping from that to the God of a religion requires additional evidence for that religions claims.

I agree with all five points you are making.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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10/27/2016 12:23:00 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/27/2016 9:54:20 AM, loveymore wrote:
At 10/27/2016 5:12:48 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2016 3:52:12 AM, PGA wrote:
At 10/27/2016 1:28:43 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2016 12:41:07 AM, PGA wrote:
At 10/26/2016 11:58:46 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/26/2016 10:15:13 PM, PGA wrote:

Either you take His Word (for it claims to be God's revelation of Himself to mankind) as you highest form of authority

You mean the words of men claiming to speak for god.

No, I don't. You mean that.

I mean God's revelation of Himself using men in that revelation.

That's what you want to mean. The reality is men wrote the Bible and claimed to be speaking for god (that's true no matter your view of the Bible).

The Bible witnesses to God. It claims to be His revelation.

No, the bible doesn't make any claims - it is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by an omniscient god while spouting ignorance. It is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by a just god while laying out unjust laws. It is a record of ancient men claiming to be inspired by an omnipotent god who needed to flood the entire Earth to erase his mistakes.

God cannot be mistaken. [snip]

An objective reading of the Bible says otherwise.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten