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Why pray

janesix
Posts: 3,465
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10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
Canuck
Posts: 164
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10/28/2016 10:49:30 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?

I suspect people pray to make themselves feel better. The largest study ever done on the effectiveness of prayer showed no benefit (and actually those who were prayed for did worse overall in their recovery)
http://web.med.harvard.edu...
I find it hard to believe that people honestly expect or believe god answers prayers.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,374
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10/29/2016 9:15:59 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
What do you think happened in this scenario?

True incident that happened to someone I knew personally (A woman in her 90's who passed away last Thanksgiving).

This woman is a Christian who preached since she was a child. When she became a young woman, she became paralyzed. While lying in the hospital, a man she knew came to visit her. The man was not a Christian. I don't know if he was initially an atheist, but he evidently had enough belief to make a vow to God (which we could say is a form of prayer) that if He (God) would heal this woman (a friend of his), he would go into the missionary field.

God healed this woman who became a minister herself, and lived into her 90's. The man became a born again believer, and a missionary.

This was a unique situation, but shows that prayer is not an incantation where if you recite "A", you will then get the result "B". This prayer involved a personal vow. And when someone makes a vow to God in accordance to a specific prayer request, and it's granted, God expects the person to carry it through. I can tell you that from experience. If anyone doubts God's existence, try making a vow. The existence of God will no longer be in question, I can guarantee you that.

That being said, if you question the answering of that specific vow/prayer, what do you think the chances are of this incident being coincidence?
bulproof
Posts: 25,247
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10/29/2016 9:24:41 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 9:15:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
What do you think happened in this scenario?

True incident that happened to someone I knew personally (A woman in her 90's who passed away last Thanksgiving).

This woman is a Christian who preached since she was a child. When she became a young woman, she became paralyzed. While lying in the hospital, a man she knew came to visit her. The man was not a Christian. I don't know if he was initially an atheist, but he evidently had enough belief to make a vow to God (which we could say is a form of prayer) that if He (God) would heal this woman (a friend of his), he would go into the missionary field.

God healed this woman who became a minister herself, and lived into her 90's. The man became a born again believer, and a missionary.

This was a unique situation, but shows that prayer is not an incantation where if you recite "A", you will then get the result "B". This prayer involved a personal vow. And when someone makes a vow to God in accordance to a specific prayer request, and it's granted, God expects the person to carry it through. I can tell you that from experience. If anyone doubts God's existence, try making a vow. The existence of God will no longer be in question, I can guarantee you that.

That being said, if you question the answering of that specific vow/prayer, what do you think the chances are of this incident being coincidence?
So did god change his mind, remembering that god is unchanging? Given that he is unchanging the vow was meaningless because god didn't change his mind he had planned for his magical cure all along.
BTW this woman is known personally by so many godists who all tell the exact same story millions of 'em . Isn't that a MIRACLE.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Silly_Billy
Posts: 641
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10/29/2016 9:25:45 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 9:15:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
What do you think happened in this scenario?

True incident that happened to someone I knew personally (A woman in her 90's who passed away last Thanksgiving).

This woman is a Christian who preached since she was a child. When she became a young woman, she became paralyzed. While lying in the hospital, a man she knew came to visit her. The man was not a Christian. I don't know if he was initially an atheist, but he evidently had enough belief to make a vow to God (which we could say is a form of prayer) that if He (God) would heal this woman (a friend of his), he would go into the missionary field.

God healed this woman who became a minister herself, and lived into her 90's. The man became a born again believer, and a missionary.

This was a unique situation, but shows that prayer is not an incantation where if you recite "A", you will then get the result "B". This prayer involved a personal vow. And when someone makes a vow to God in accordance to a specific prayer request, and it's granted, God expects the person to carry it through. I can tell you that from experience. If anyone doubts God's existence, try making a vow. The existence of God will no longer be in question, I can guarantee you that.

That being said, if you question the answering of that specific vow/prayer, what do you think the chances are of this incident being coincidence?

In other words, when people pray they are simply doing it wrong, they got to make vows instead.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,374
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10/29/2016 9:40:59 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 9:25:45 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 10/29/2016 9:15:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
What do you think happened in this scenario?

True incident that happened to someone I knew personally (A woman in her 90's who passed away last Thanksgiving).

This woman is a Christian who preached since she was a child. When she became a young woman, she became paralyzed. While lying in the hospital, a man she knew came to visit her. The man was not a Christian. I don't know if he was initially an atheist, but he evidently had enough belief to make a vow to God (which we could say is a form of prayer) that if He (God) would heal this woman (a friend of his), he would go into the missionary field.

God healed this woman who became a minister herself, and lived into her 90's. The man became a born again believer, and a missionary.

This was a unique situation, but shows that prayer is not an incantation where if you recite "A", you will then get the result "B". This prayer involved a personal vow. And when someone makes a vow to God in accordance to a specific prayer request, and it's granted, God expects the person to carry it through. I can tell you that from experience. If anyone doubts God's existence, try making a vow. The existence of God will no longer be in question, I can guarantee you that.

That being said, if you question the answering of that specific vow/prayer, what do you think the chances are of this incident being coincidence?

In other words, when people pray they are simply doing it wrong, they got to make vows instead.
No. This was a specific unique situation. There are different types of prayers. This wasn't merely a "heal this woman prayer", but a "if you heal this woman, I will go into the missionary field".

We see this in the Bible:

1 Samuel 1:9-18New International Version (NIV)

9 Once when they had finished eating and drinking in Shiloh, Hannah stood up. Now Eli the priest was sitting on his chair by the doorpost of the Lord"s house. 10 In her deep anguish Hannah prayed to the Lord, weeping bitterly. 11 And she made a vow, saying, "Lord Almighty, if you will only look on your servant"s misery and remember me, and not forget your servant but give her a son, then I will give him to the Lord for all the days of his life, and no razor will ever be used on his head."


Not every prayer in the Bible involves a vow.
bulproof
Posts: 25,247
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10/29/2016 9:59:11 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 9:40:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/29/2016 9:25:45 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 10/29/2016 9:15:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
What do you think happened in this scenario?

True incident that happened to someone I knew personally (A woman in her 90's who passed away last Thanksgiving).

This woman is a Christian who preached since she was a child. When she became a young woman, she became paralyzed. While lying in the hospital, a man she knew came to visit her. The man was not a Christian. I don't know if he was initially an atheist, but he evidently had enough belief to make a vow to God (which we could say is a form of prayer) that if He (God) would heal this woman (a friend of his), he would go into the missionary field.

God healed this woman who became a minister herself, and lived into her 90's. The man became a born again believer, and a missionary.

This was a unique situation, but shows that prayer is not an incantation where if you recite "A", you will then get the result "B". This prayer involved a personal vow. And when someone makes a vow to God in accordance to a specific prayer request, and it's granted, God expects the person to carry it through. I can tell you that from experience. If anyone doubts God's existence, try making a vow. The existence of God will no longer be in question, I can guarantee you that.

That being said, if you question the answering of that specific vow/prayer, what do you think the chances are of this incident being coincidence?

In other words, when people pray they are simply doing it wrong, they got to make vows instead.
No. This was a specific unique situation. There are different types of prayers. This wasn't merely a "heal this woman prayer", but a "if you heal this woman, I will go into the missionary field".

We see this in the Bible:

1 Samuel 1:9-18New International Version (NIV)

9 Once when they had finished eating and drinking in Shiloh, Hannah stood up. Now Eli the priest was sitting on his chair by the doorpost of the Lord"s house. 10 In her deep anguish Hannah prayed to the Lord, weeping bitterly. 11 And she made a vow, saying, "Lord Almighty, if you will only look on your servant"s misery and remember me, and not forget your servant but give her a son, then I will give him to the Lord for all the days of his life, and no razor will ever be used on his head."


Not every prayer in the Bible involves a vow.
I see post #4 is too tough.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
KwLm
Posts: 492
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10/29/2016 10:27:38 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 9:15:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
What do you think happened in this scenario?

True incident that happened to someone I knew personally (A woman in her 90's who passed away last Thanksgiving).

This woman is a Christian who preached since she was a child. When she became a young woman, she became paralyzed. While lying in the hospital, a man she knew came to visit her. The man was not a Christian. I don't know if he was initially an atheist, but he evidently had enough belief to make a vow to God (which we could say is a form of prayer) that if He (God) would heal this woman (a friend of his), he would go into the missionary field.

God healed this woman who became a minister herself, and lived into her 90's. The man became a born again believer, and a missionary.

This was a unique situation, but shows that prayer is not an incantation where if you recite "A", you will then get the result "B". This prayer involved a personal vow. And when someone makes a vow to God in accordance to a specific prayer request, and it's granted, God expects the person to carry it through. I can tell you that from experience. If anyone doubts God's existence, try making a vow. The existence of God will no longer be in question, I can guarantee you that.

That being said, if you question the answering of that specific vow/prayer, what do you think the chances are of this incident being coincidence?

Are you joking, I've heard of this "personal story" from approx. 50 theists in the last 2 years, do ye all know the same woman? And how can you be caught up in the same mass hysteria and be unable to see the complete illogical delusion in this story.
The woman was in hospital, you know, that place where people work incredibly hard to heal sick people just to listen to bull crap that some jackass prayed to God and that's what made him better. This story is an insult to those that work in the medical profession
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,374
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10/29/2016 10:43:37 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 10:27:38 AM, KwLm wrote:
At 10/29/2016 9:15:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
What do you think happened in this scenario?

True incident that happened to someone I knew personally (A woman in her 90's who passed away last Thanksgiving).

This woman is a Christian who preached since she was a child. When she became a young woman, she became paralyzed. While lying in the hospital, a man she knew came to visit her. The man was not a Christian. I don't know if he was initially an atheist, but he evidently had enough belief to make a vow to God (which we could say is a form of prayer) that if He (God) would heal this woman (a friend of his), he would go into the missionary field.

God healed this woman who became a minister herself, and lived into her 90's. The man became a born again believer, and a missionary.

This was a unique situation, but shows that prayer is not an incantation where if you recite "A", you will then get the result "B". This prayer involved a personal vow. And when someone makes a vow to God in accordance to a specific prayer request, and it's granted, God expects the person to carry it through. I can tell you that from experience. If anyone doubts God's existence, try making a vow. The existence of God will no longer be in question, I can guarantee you that.

That being said, if you question the answering of that specific vow/prayer, what do you think the chances are of this incident being coincidence?

Are you joking, I've heard of this "personal story" from approx. 50 theists in the last 2 years, do ye all know the same woman? And how can you be caught up in the same mass hysteria and be unable to see the complete illogical delusion in this story.
The woman was in hospital, you know, that place where people work incredibly hard to heal sick people just to listen to bull crap that some jackass prayed to God and that's what made him better. This story is an insult to those that work in the medical profession
No I'm not joking. I'm very serious. Do you think I made up a generic story?

Here's the woman here.

http://www.charismanews.com...

Were the 50 theists referring to this woman? You tell me.

My advice, let the hospital staff that were there at the time decide if it was an insult to the medical profession.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,014
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10/29/2016 11:02:28 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
I'm sure she was a nice lady, but there's nothing about her being paralysed or getting healed in the article, Rod.
bulproof
Posts: 25,247
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10/29/2016 11:04:06 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 10:43:37 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/29/2016 10:27:38 AM, KwLm wrote:
At 10/29/2016 9:15:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
What do you think happened in this scenario?

True incident that happened to someone I knew personally (A woman in her 90's who passed away last Thanksgiving).

This woman is a Christian who preached since she was a child. When she became a young woman, she became paralyzed. While lying in the hospital, a man she knew came to visit her. The man was not a Christian. I don't know if he was initially an atheist, but he evidently had enough belief to make a vow to God (which we could say is a form of prayer) that if He (God) would heal this woman (a friend of his), he would go into the missionary field.

God healed this woman who became a minister herself, and lived into her 90's. The man became a born again believer, and a missionary.

This was a unique situation, but shows that prayer is not an incantation where if you recite "A", you will then get the result "B". This prayer involved a personal vow. And when someone makes a vow to God in accordance to a specific prayer request, and it's granted, God expects the person to carry it through. I can tell you that from experience. If anyone doubts God's existence, try making a vow. The existence of God will no longer be in question, I can guarantee you that.

That being said, if you question the answering of that specific vow/prayer, what do you think the chances are of this incident being coincidence?

Are you joking, I've heard of this "personal story" from approx. 50 theists in the last 2 years, do ye all know the same woman? And how can you be caught up in the same mass hysteria and be unable to see the complete illogical delusion in this story.
The woman was in hospital, you know, that place where people work incredibly hard to heal sick people just to listen to bull crap that some jackass prayed to God and that's what made him better. This story is an insult to those that work in the medical profession
No I'm not joking. I'm very serious. Do you think I made up a generic story?

Here's the woman here.

http://www.charismanews.com...

Were the 50 theists referring to this woman? You tell me.

My advice, let the hospital staff that were there at the time decide if it was an insult to the medical profession.
Paralyses? No? But the author was a typical sanctimonious hypocritical godists. God obviously thought more of her husband, he put him up in fine divine digs 70yrs before she got a look in.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
KwLm
Posts: 492
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10/29/2016 11:28:38 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 10:43:37 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/29/2016 10:27:38 AM, KwLm wrote:
At 10/29/2016 9:15:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
What do you think happened in this scenario?

True incident that happened to someone I knew personally (A woman in her 90's who passed away last Thanksgiving).

This woman is a Christian who preached since she was a child. When she became a young woman, she became paralyzed. While lying in the hospital, a man she knew came to visit her. The man was not a Christian. I don't know if he was initially an atheist, but he evidently had enough belief to make a vow to God (which we could say is a form of prayer) that if He (God) would heal this woman (a friend of his), he would go into the missionary field.

God healed this woman who became a minister herself, and lived into her 90's. The man became a born again believer, and a missionary.

This was a unique situation, but shows that prayer is not an incantation where if you recite "A", you will then get the result "B". This prayer involved a personal vow. And when someone makes a vow to God in accordance to a specific prayer request, and it's granted, God expects the person to carry it through. I can tell you that from experience. If anyone doubts God's existence, try making a vow. The existence of God will no longer be in question, I can guarantee you that.

That being said, if you question the answering of that specific vow/prayer, what do you think the chances are of this incident being coincidence?

Are you joking, I've heard of this "personal story" from approx. 50 theists in the last 2 years, do ye all know the same woman? And how can you be caught up in the same mass hysteria and be unable to see the complete illogical delusion in this story.
The woman was in hospital, you know, that place where people work incredibly hard to heal sick people just to listen to bull crap that some jackass prayed to God and that's what made him better. This story is an insult to those that work in the medical profession
No I'm not joking. I'm very serious. Do you think I made up a generic story?

Here's the woman here.

http://www.charismanews.com...

Were the 50 theists referring to this woman? You tell me.

My advice, let the hospital staff that were there at the time decide if it was an insult to the medical profession.

Funny how the article has zero mentions of any hospital stay or paralysis, so no, I don't believe they were all referring to her, just a typical standard bulls*it generic story to try and pull the imaginary heart strings of the insanely gullible. And it is an insult to anybody in the medical profession, many of whom stay awake for 3 to 4 days even more to find answers and ways to heal people, as is their job, and when the person is healthy, they thank their imaginary friend in sky instead of actually thanking the person who did the physical work. (Not every theists mind you, but enough of them to make me question why I bother helping these people at all if their super magic sky daddy will do all the work)
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,374
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10/29/2016 12:26:30 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 11:28:38 AM, KwLm wrote:
At 10/29/2016 10:43:37 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/29/2016 10:27:38 AM, KwLm wrote:
At 10/29/2016 9:15:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
What do you think happened in this scenario?

True incident that happened to someone I knew personally (A woman in her 90's who passed away last Thanksgiving).

This woman is a Christian who preached since she was a child. When she became a young woman, she became paralyzed. While lying in the hospital, a man she knew came to visit her. The man was not a Christian. I don't know if he was initially an atheist, but he evidently had enough belief to make a vow to God (which we could say is a form of prayer) that if He (God) would heal this woman (a friend of his), he would go into the missionary field.

God healed this woman who became a minister herself, and lived into her 90's. The man became a born again believer, and a missionary.

This was a unique situation, but shows that prayer is not an incantation where if you recite "A", you will then get the result "B". This prayer involved a personal vow. And when someone makes a vow to God in accordance to a specific prayer request, and it's granted, God expects the person to carry it through. I can tell you that from experience. If anyone doubts God's existence, try making a vow. The existence of God will no longer be in question, I can guarantee you that.

That being said, if you question the answering of that specific vow/prayer, what do you think the chances are of this incident being coincidence?

Are you joking, I've heard of this "personal story" from approx. 50 theists in the last 2 years, do ye all know the same woman? And how can you be caught up in the same mass hysteria and be unable to see the complete illogical delusion in this story.
The woman was in hospital, you know, that place where people work incredibly hard to heal sick people just to listen to bull crap that some jackass prayed to God and that's what made him better. This story is an insult to those that work in the medical profession
No I'm not joking. I'm very serious. Do you think I made up a generic story?

Here's the woman here.

http://www.charismanews.com...

Were the 50 theists referring to this woman? You tell me.

My advice, let the hospital staff that were there at the time decide if it was an insult to the medical profession.

Funny how the article has zero mentions of any hospital stay or paralysis, so no, I don't believe they were all referring to her, just a typical standard bulls*it generic story to try and pull the imaginary heart strings of the insanely gullible. And it is an insult to anybody in the medical profession, many of whom stay awake for 3 to 4 days even more to find answers and ways to heal people, as is their job, and when the person is healthy, they thank their imaginary friend in sky instead of actually thanking the person who did the physical work. (Not every theists mind you, but enough of them to make me question why I bother helping these people at all if their super magic sky daddy will do all the work)
You have to understand, the internet is not going to supply every detail of this woman's life. There were actually quite a few remarkable incidences in her life story. Many of them I heard her speak of personally, or by people closely associated with her. I just linked that particular article to show that I was not just making up a random story.

However, I did find a link that does speak of her paralysis. it doesn't mention the person I was referring to, but again, there were probably a lot of details that were profound, but left out.

http://www.charismamag.com...

The article does mention a missionary involved who may very well have played a part in the man I was referring to in correlation to his vow. But, this is a condensed version of what happened, so little details like that are not likely to be mentioned.

As far as respect for those in the medical profession, I'm acquainted with Christians in the medical field, and don't know of any Christians who don't hold high respect for those in the field. I can guarantee that if this woman was alive today, and you were to ask her about her physicians at the time, she would give them high accolades.
KwLm
Posts: 492
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10/29/2016 12:43:37 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 12:26:30 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/29/2016 11:28:38 AM, KwLm wrote:
At 10/29/2016 10:43:37 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/29/2016 10:27:38 AM, KwLm wrote:
At 10/29/2016 9:15:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
What do you think happened in this scenario?

True incident that happened to someone I knew personally (A woman in her 90's who passed away last Thanksgiving).

This woman is a Christian who preached since she was a child. When she became a young woman, she became paralyzed. While lying in the hospital, a man she knew came to visit her. The man was not a Christian. I don't know if he was initially an atheist, but he evidently had enough belief to make a vow to God (which we could say is a form of prayer) that if He (God) would heal this woman (a friend of his), he would go into the missionary field.

God healed this woman who became a minister herself, and lived into her 90's. The man became a born again believer, and a missionary.

This was a unique situation, but shows that prayer is not an incantation where if you recite "A", you will then get the result "B". This prayer involved a personal vow. And when someone makes a vow to God in accordance to a specific prayer request, and it's granted, God expects the person to carry it through. I can tell you that from experience. If anyone doubts God's existence, try making a vow. The existence of God will no longer be in question, I can guarantee you that.

That being said, if you question the answering of that specific vow/prayer, what do you think the chances are of this incident being coincidence?

Are you joking, I've heard of this "personal story" from approx. 50 theists in the last 2 years, do ye all know the same woman? And how can you be caught up in the same mass hysteria and be unable to see the complete illogical delusion in this story.
The woman was in hospital, you know, that place where people work incredibly hard to heal sick people just to listen to bull crap that some jackass prayed to God and that's what made him better. This story is an insult to those that work in the medical profession
No I'm not joking. I'm very serious. Do you think I made up a generic story?

Here's the woman here.

http://www.charismanews.com...

Were the 50 theists referring to this woman? You tell me.

My advice, let the hospital staff that were there at the time decide if it was an insult to the medical profession.

Funny how the article has zero mentions of any hospital stay or paralysis, so no, I don't believe they were all referring to her, just a typical standard bulls*it generic story to try and pull the imaginary heart strings of the insanely gullible. And it is an insult to anybody in the medical profession, many of whom stay awake for 3 to 4 days even more to find answers and ways to heal people, as is their job, and when the person is healthy, they thank their imaginary friend in sky instead of actually thanking the person who did the physical work. (Not every theists mind you, but enough of them to make me question why I bother helping these people at all if their super magic sky daddy will do all the work)
You have to understand, the internet is not going to supply every detail of this woman's life. There were actually quite a few remarkable incidences in her life story. Many of them I heard her speak of personally, or by people closely associated with her. I just linked that particular article to show that I was not just making up a random story.

However, I did find a link that does speak of her paralysis. it doesn't mention the person I was referring to, but again, there were probably a lot of details that were profound, but left out.

http://www.charismamag.com...

The article does mention a missionary involved who may very well have played a part in the man I was referring to in correlation to his vow. But, this is a condensed version of what happened, so little details like that are not likely to be mentioned.

As far as respect for those in the medical profession, I'm acquainted with Christians in the medical field, and don't know of any Christians who don't hold high respect for those in the field. I can guarantee that if this woman was alive today, and you were to ask her about her physicians at the time, she would give them high accolades.

Ok, she was given a placebo she clearly mistaken as the power of a magic juju of the sky, according to the article, she suffered the trauma of losing her husband, then the increased trauma of child birth, she ended up with temporary paralysis. It's a nice heart warming story to the incredibly gullible, but I'd rather see her medical records than believe a story. ~And in respect to the second point, it's not about the having respect for medical practitioners, It's the fact (and you can believe what I say is true or not) that I hear from my colleagues almost everyday, giving out about people thanking the power of their magical sky fairy for healing them, when it was the physical work of their doctors and nurses.
Willows
Posts: 2,058
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10/29/2016 1:42:39 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 9:15:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
What do you think happened in this scenario?

True incident that happened to someone I knew personally (A woman in her 90's who passed away last Thanksgiving).

This woman is a Christian who preached since she was a child. When she became a young woman, she became paralyzed. While lying in the hospital, a man she knew came to visit her. The man was not a Christian. I don't know if he was initially an atheist, but he evidently had enough belief to make a vow to God (which we could say is a form of prayer) that if He (God) would heal this woman (a friend of his), he would go into the missionary field.

God healed this woman who became a minister herself, and lived into her 90's. The man became a born again believer, and a missionary.

This was a unique situation, but shows that prayer is not an incantation where if you recite "A", you will then get the result "B". This prayer involved a personal vow. And when someone makes a vow to God in accordance to a specific prayer request, and it's granted, God expects the person to carry it through. I can tell you that from experience. If anyone doubts God's existence, try making a vow. The existence of God will no longer be in question, I can guarantee you that.

That being said, if you question the answering of that specific vow/prayer, what do you think the chances are of this incident being coincidence?

100%.

But let's give it a go. I am making a vow right now to God that the Audi parked in my garage will become a Bentley.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,374
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10/29/2016 2:56:56 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 12:43:37 PM, KwLm wrote:
At 10/29/2016 12:26:30 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:


The article does mention a missionary involved who may very well have played a part in the man I was referring to in correlation to his vow. But, this is a condensed version of what happened, so little details like that are not likely to be mentioned.

As far as respect for those in the medical profession, I'm acquainted with Christians in the medical field, and don't know of any Christians who don't hold high respect for those in the field. I can guarantee that if this woman was alive today, and you were to ask her about her physicians at the time, she would give them high accolades.

Ok, she was given a placebo she clearly mistaken as the power of a magic juju of the sky, according to the article, she suffered the trauma of losing her husband, then the increased trauma of child birth, she ended up with temporary paralysis. It's a nice heart warming story to the incredibly gullible, but I'd rather see her medical records than believe a story. ~And in respect to the second point, it's not about the having respect for medical practitioners, It's the fact (and you can believe what I say is true or not) that I hear from my colleagues almost everyday, giving out about people thanking the power of their magical sky fairy for healing them, when it was the physical work of their doctors and nurses.
I have no reason to doubt what you say you hear from your colleagues, but I don't see any profound relevance for it in the topic at hand. Your apparent hangup seems to revolve around medics not getting enough credit from Christians who were treated in a medical facility, and God not existing. As far as I can tell, I don't think the OP is questioning the existence of God. But the question the OP might ask is "Why bother to pray to God when the medics can take care of the problem themselves?" And that I think would be a more appropriate question to respond to (not that I'm hinting in that direction), rather than getting into an argument of whether or not God exists.

But, you say you'd prefer to see the medical record? What exactly is it you would expect to see? Would the incident hold any more validity to it if the records contained certain facts over another? See, I'm wondering if that statement you just made is not a generic comeback with no substance other than to appear sophisticated.

And if her recovery was a result of a placebo, great. Why not use it yourself (since you seem to allude to being in that field), or suggest it to your colleagues. Who cares who gets credit? The important thing is recovery, right? Not who gets credit.
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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10/29/2016 3:05:07 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?

Your question is flawed because we don't have a preordained destiny.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
KwLm
Posts: 492
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10/29/2016 4:00:35 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 2:56:56 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/29/2016 12:43:37 PM, KwLm wrote:
At 10/29/2016 12:26:30 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:



The article does mention a missionary involved who may very well have played a part in the man I was referring to in correlation to his vow. But, this is a condensed version of what happened, so little details like that are not likely to be mentioned.

As far as respect for those in the medical profession, I'm acquainted with Christians in the medical field, and don't know of any Christians who don't hold high respect for those in the field. I can guarantee that if this woman was alive today, and you were to ask her about her physicians at the time, she would give them high accolades.

Ok, she was given a placebo she clearly mistaken as the power of a magic juju of the sky, according to the article, she suffered the trauma of losing her husband, then the increased trauma of child birth, she ended up with temporary paralysis. It's a nice heart warming story to the incredibly gullible, but I'd rather see her medical records than believe a story. ~And in respect to the second point, it's not about the having respect for medical practitioners, It's the fact (and you can believe what I say is true or not) that I hear from my colleagues almost everyday, giving out about people thanking the power of their magical sky fairy for healing them, when it was the physical work of their doctors and nurses.
I have no reason to doubt what you say you hear from your colleagues, but I don't see any profound relevance for it in the topic at hand. Your apparent hangup seems to revolve around medics not getting enough credit from Christians who were treated in a medical facility, and God not existing. As far as I can tell, I don't think the OP is questioning the existence of God. But the question the OP might ask is "Why bother to pray to God when the medics can take care of the problem themselves?" And that I think would be a more appropriate question to respond to (not that I'm hinting in that direction), rather than getting into an argument of whether or not God exists.

But, you say you'd prefer to see the medical record? What exactly is it you would expect to see? Would the incident hold any more validity to it if the records contained certain facts over another? See, I'm wondering if that statement you just made is not a generic comeback with no substance other than to appear sophisticated.

And if her recovery was a result of a placebo, great. Why not use it yourself (since you seem to allude to being in that field), or suggest it to your colleagues. Who cares who gets credit? The important thing is recovery, right? Not who gets credit.

Sorry I do end up going on as tangent when talking about this, I'm a field medic in the military back home for extra training, my point is, we don't ask for a lot just a little acknowledgement. I would never use a placebo such as faith, because that's removing her from a physical issue to a mental one, belief in a deity is akin to a mental instability.

Oh and the medic record would tell you exactly what happened between the time of the paralyse state to being able to move again rather than a story about some guy that made a vow to the wind.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,374
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10/29/2016 4:56:38 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 4:00:35 PM, KwLm wrote:
At 10/29/2016 2:56:56 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/29/2016 12:43:37 PM, KwLm wrote:
At 10/29/2016 12:26:30 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:



The article does mention a missionary involved who may very well have played a part in the man I was referring to in correlation to his vow. But, this is a condensed version of what happened, so little details like that are not likely to be mentioned.

As far as respect for those in the medical profession, I'm acquainted with Christians in the medical field, and don't know of any Christians who don't hold high respect for those in the field. I can guarantee that if this woman was alive today, and you were to ask her about her physicians at the time, she would give them high accolades.

Ok, she was given a placebo she clearly mistaken as the power of a magic juju of the sky, according to the article, she suffered the trauma of losing her husband, then the increased trauma of child birth, she ended up with temporary paralysis. It's a nice heart warming story to the incredibly gullible, but I'd rather see her medical records than believe a story. ~And in respect to the second point, it's not about the having respect for medical practitioners, It's the fact (and you can believe what I say is true or not) that I hear from my colleagues almost everyday, giving out about people thanking the power of their magical sky fairy for healing them, when it was the physical work of their doctors and nurses.
I have no reason to doubt what you say you hear from your colleagues, but I don't see any profound relevance for it in the topic at hand. Your apparent hangup seems to revolve around medics not getting enough credit from Christians who were treated in a medical facility, and God not existing. As far as I can tell, I don't think the OP is questioning the existence of God. But the question the OP might ask is "Why bother to pray to God when the medics can take care of the problem themselves?" And that I think would be a more appropriate question to respond to (not that I'm hinting in that direction), rather than getting into an argument of whether or not God exists.

But, you say you'd prefer to see the medical record? What exactly is it you would expect to see? Would the incident hold any more validity to it if the records contained certain facts over another? See, I'm wondering if that statement you just made is not a generic comeback with no substance other than to appear sophisticated.

And if her recovery was a result of a placebo, great. Why not use it yourself (since you seem to allude to being in that field), or suggest it to your colleagues. Who cares who gets credit? The important thing is recovery, right? Not who gets credit.

Sorry I do end up going on as tangent when talking about this, I'm a field medic in the military back home for extra training, my point is, we don't ask for a lot just a little acknowledgement. I would never use a placebo such as faith, because that's removing her from a physical issue to a mental one, belief in a deity is akin to a mental instability.

As far as going on a tangent, no problem. I fully understand you don't believe in the existence of God, and have no intention of disrespecting that. From a believers standpoint, I would go as far as to say whenever someone believes they were ultimately divinely healed while they were placed in a medical facility, as much as possible any care given in that facility by medics should be honored either in testimony or action. I wouldn't deny that care given by medics sometimes gets lost in these types of testimonies. Obviously this woman received medical attention whether her recovery was ultimately divine or not.

Oh and the medic record would tell you exactly what happened between the time of the paralyse state to being able to move again rather than a story about some guy that made a vow to the wind.
I wouldn't suggest using that type of placebo either, and wouldn't suggest anyone do what the missionary did unless they were very sure what they were doing. In this particular case, the missionary didn't know the woman beforehand. So from a believers standpoint, the odds are pretty slim that he had some whim idea that turned out to be successful.

From a non-believers standpoint, what would have happened was the woman was cured by some sort of mental suggestion. So that would make it a fairly strong placebo. And it would beg the question, would it make any difference if, as you said, mental instability was perpetuated? She lived a happy life up until the age of 90. She's highly respected, traveled the world, loved to be around people. From that standpoint (which as a believer I don't hold to), I would wonder if such a placebo should be considered as not an alternative, but something in addition to treating the physical need.

But again, that's not my standpoint as I don't think (for lack of a better term) mental trickery was involved.
janesix
Posts: 3,465
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10/29/2016 6:38:14 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 9:15:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
What do you think happened in this scenario?

True incident that happened to someone I knew personally (A woman in her 90's who passed away last Thanksgiving).

This woman is a Christian who preached since she was a child. When she became a young woman, she became paralyzed. While lying in the hospital, a man she knew came to visit her. The man was not a Christian. I don't know if he was initially an atheist, but he evidently had enough belief to make a vow to God (which we could say is a form of prayer) that if He (God) would heal this woman (a friend of his), he would go into the missionary field.

God healed this woman who became a minister herself, and lived into her 90's. The man became a born again believer, and a missionary.

This was a unique situation, but shows that prayer is not an incantation where if you recite "A", you will then get the result "B". This prayer involved a personal vow. And when someone makes a vow to God in accordance to a specific prayer request, and it's granted, God expects the person to carry it through. I can tell you that from experience. If anyone doubts God's existence, try making a vow. The existence of God will no longer be in question, I can guarantee you that.

That being said, if you question the answering of that specific vow/prayer, what do you think the chances are of this incident being coincidence?

So you can get God to change his plan just by asking?
janesix
Posts: 3,465
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10/29/2016 6:44:52 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 3:05:07 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?

Your question is flawed because we don't have a preordained destiny.

This question was for Christians who say God has a preordained plan for everyone. Just ignore it if that's not what you believe.
Liveone
Posts: 64
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10/30/2016 10:12:00 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask? : :

You only have to pray for the things the God asks you to pray for to prove that he's in control of your life. Once you pray for the things he asks you to pray for and it happens exactly the way you asked for it, you will never have to pray again.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,374
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10/31/2016 3:45:43 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/29/2016 6:38:14 PM, janesix wrote:
At 10/29/2016 9:15:59 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?
What do you think happened in this scenario?

True incident that happened to someone I knew personally (A woman in her 90's who passed away last Thanksgiving).

This woman is a Christian who preached since she was a child. When she became a young woman, she became paralyzed. While lying in the hospital, a man she knew came to visit her. The man was not a Christian. I don't know if he was initially an atheist, but he evidently had enough belief to make a vow to God (which we could say is a form of prayer) that if He (God) would heal this woman (a friend of his), he would go into the missionary field.

God healed this woman who became a minister herself, and lived into her 90's. The man became a born again believer, and a missionary.

This was a unique situation, but shows that prayer is not an incantation where if you recite "A", you will then get the result "B". This prayer involved a personal vow. And when someone makes a vow to God in accordance to a specific prayer request, and it's granted, God expects the person to carry it through. I can tell you that from experience. If anyone doubts God's existence, try making a vow. The existence of God will no longer be in question, I can guarantee you that.

That being said, if you question the answering of that specific vow/prayer, what do you think the chances are of this incident being coincidence?

So you can get God to change his plan just by asking?
I'm not really sure what you mean. Why would a Christian want to change God's plan?

There are prophesies in the Bible that we could say are circumstance for the entire world. They're prophesies that won't change. They are prophesies that Christ predicted that are be results of human action, not necessarily God's ultimate desired plan or outcome. An example would be the hardening of the heart of Pharaoh. There was a purpose behind it, but ultimately it would have been preferable for Pharaoh not to have been in rebellion, just as it would have been preferable for any human being not to have been in rebellion.

God had a plan for Israel to occupy the land that is now called Israel. It would have been ultimately preferable for all of Israel to have made it to the promised land. It was God's plan that they did, but only a small few made it. So some prophesies that are for specific individuals are generally conditional, meaning if they don't take certain actions, or fall into depravity, they may not receive the promise given to them in obtaining the prophesy. If it's a prophesy of judgment, there are times where the person prays and has the judgment removed.

These are examples of very good reasons to pray. Had all of Israel prayed on a continual basis, they all would have made it into the promised land. At that time, the Israelites were relying on Moses to do the praying for them, but at least they could have followed Moses' guidance. In order to fulfill a calling, the person seeking to fulfill the call must seek guidance on a continual basis, not to change God's mind or change their calling, but to fulfill the mandate. If not, that's where problems arise. And an individual's failure to fulfill a calling doesn't mean God's ultimate plan doesn't happen. Sometimes God will end up using someone else to take that person's place.

This is at least one of the reasons why James emphasized being a doer of the word.

Basically, the idea of sitting back and letting God's will just happen is not a valid proposition, any more than a firefighting crew letting fires burn themselves out.
Danb6177
Posts: 433
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10/31/2016 3:49:25 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?

The assumption is that people pray to change their circumstances. Christians pray because they are in a relationship with God. They pray for the same reasons you speak to your spouse. It builds upon the relationship.
Outplayz
Posts: 1,271
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10/31/2016 7:11:17 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/28/2016 8:41:00 PM, janesix wrote:
Why pray if God already has a plan for everyone? Will God change your preordained destiny just because you ask?

I pray to strengthen my path. Although it is already progressing, there is nothing wrong with making "some" things happen faster.