Total Posts:48|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Does God have free will?

Skeptical1
Posts: 696
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

Supplementary question:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/31/2016 10:33:51 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

Supplementary question:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

Yes, I have raised this problem before. I further submit that such a being would quickly go insane with boredom. Can you imagine never experiencing anything new and unforeseen? It would be a living hell. If a god exists then it is insane.
Skeptical1
Posts: 696
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/31/2016 10:36:46 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/31/2016 10:33:51 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

Supplementary question:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

Yes, I have raised this problem before. I further submit that such a being would quickly go insane with boredom. Can you imagine never experiencing anything new and unforeseen? It would be a living hell. If a god exists then it is insane.

The worst Groundhog Day ever.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/31/2016 10:41:15 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/31/2016 10:36:46 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 10/31/2016 10:33:51 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

Supplementary question:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

Yes, I have raised this problem before. I further submit that such a being would quickly go insane with boredom. Can you imagine never experiencing anything new and unforeseen? It would be a living hell. If a god exists then it is insane.

The worst Groundhog Day ever.

Exactly. A Groundhog Day where you could not change a single thing, not even what you yourself did. No wonder Bill Murray's character resorted to suicide.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 5:48:43 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

Supplementary question:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

If your life was eternal, it would have no beginning or end.
Put yourself in a situation where you would simply exist without beginning or end, in a timeless zone where you can create time if you wanted it. You would know every outcome of every action you would ever take or want to take. You know about the cause and effect of many things if you really think about it. Knowing that, does not limit you to doing only one thing and not doing anything differently, especially if you were an immortal being with all of eternity on your hands as well as the ability to manipulate time. Heck, you could be an infinite amount of things and have an infinite amount of choices at the same time and live in an infinite amount of time zones and do all you can ever imagine for all eternity. How could that ever be boring?
Have you ever read a "choose your own story" book? In those books there are many outcomes and all of them are prewritten and you can get to them all by following different pages in the book. Now imagine that type of book with infinite choices to make in an infinite cause and effect scenario. If you could be in all places at once and do all you ever dreamed of doing, good or bad, would you be bored for eternity and lack some drive to live ?
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 5:50:32 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/31/2016 10:33:51 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

Supplementary question:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

Yes, I have raised this problem before. I further submit that such a being would quickly go insane with boredom. Can you imagine never experiencing anything new and unforeseen? It would be a living hell. If a god exists then it is insane.
Precisely!
Skeptical1
Posts: 696
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 5:57:19 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 5:48:43 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

Supplementary question:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

If your life was eternal, it would have no beginning or end.
Put yourself in a situation where you would simply exist without beginning or end, in a timeless zone where you can create time if you wanted it. You would know every outcome of every action you would ever take or want to take. You know about the cause and effect of many things if you really think about it. Knowing that, does not limit you to doing only one thing and not doing anything differently, especially if you were an immortal being with all of eternity on your hands as well as the ability to manipulate time. Heck, you could be an infinite amount of things and have an infinite amount of choices at the same time and live in an infinite amount of time zones and do all you can ever imagine for all eternity. How could that ever be boring?
Have you ever read a "choose your own story" book? In those books there are many outcomes and all of them are prewritten and you can get to them all by following different pages in the book. Now imagine that type of book with infinite choices to make in an infinite cause and effect scenario. If you could be in all places at once and do all you ever dreamed of doing, good or bad, would you be bored for eternity and lack some drive to live ?

Now that concept actually has some merit. Could be fun. Except that's not the way God is presented in any version of theology I've ever come across. He was around forever (that's a super long time) before he decided to create the universe. What was he doing all that time? Then, for 14 billion years or so, he basically does whatever he's known he was going to do <yawn>. When the universe dies of heat death in another dozen billion years or so, what will he do then? I guess go back to doing what he was doing before, or maybe make a new universe. I do think it would get tedious, other than if he could play around with the acid drop idea you suggested. And even then, don't you think eventually he would just wish it would all go away?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 6:30:54 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 5:57:19 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 11/1/2016 5:48:43 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

If your life was eternal, it would have no beginning or end.
Put yourself in a situation where you would simply exist without beginning or end, in a timeless zone where you can create time if you wanted it. You would know every outcome of every action you would ever take or want to take. You know about the cause and effect of many things if you really think about it. Knowing that, does not limit you to doing only one thing and not doing anything differently, especially if you were an immortal being with all of eternity on your hands as well as the ability to manipulate time. Heck, you could be an infinite amount of things and have an infinite amount of choices at the same time and live in an infinite amount of time zones and do all you can ever imagine for all eternity. How could that ever be boring?
Have you ever read a "choose your own story" book? In those books there are many outcomes and all of them are prewritten and you can get to them all by following different pages in the book. Now imagine that type of book with infinite choices to make in an infinite cause and effect scenario. If you could be in all places at once and do all you ever dreamed of doing, good or bad, would you be bored for eternity and lack some drive to live ?

Now that concept actually has some merit. Could be fun. Except that's not the way God is presented in any version of theology I've ever come across. He was around forever (that's a super long time) before he decided to create the universe. What was he doing all that time? Then, for 14 billion years or so, he basically does whatever he's known he was going to do <yawn>. When the universe dies of heat death in another dozen billion years or so, what will he do then? I guess go back to doing what he was doing before, or maybe make a new universe. I do think it would get tedious, other than if he could play around with the acid drop idea you suggested. And even then, don't you think eventually he would just wish it would all go away?

The way God is presented in the bible and by religion is very boring.
I "see" God in the same way that I "see" Mother Nature and Father Time, as personifications of perfectly natural forces. They have also been around forever. What were they doing before they decided to create a "big bang" in the mind of a priest who wanted to be a scientist and obviously had enough influence in both fields to con both types of people into believing his theories and/or faith?
Mother Nature knows what she will do in 14 billion years from today because it is the same thing she has been doing for the last 14 billion years. ... Fooling humans with Father Time.
It's a laugh a second. Quite comical when you sit and watch the actors on the stage of life all trying to outdo each other and try to figure out where everything began or when it will end.
Don't you know that time is just an illusion which fools people into believing things have an age ?
Atoms are timeless. They have no age.
All things are made of atoms. Therefore logically all things are timeless.
The stages of growth and change that physical things go though are nothing but ageless, timeless, atoms moving around in space.
VirBinarus
Posts: 323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 7:16:44 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

ooh yay, a time question...

God is not inside time, looking forward and back, God is outside of time, looking at it in much the same way as you don't see your monitor one pixel at a time.
"Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
1 thessalonians, 5:11
Skeptical1
Posts: 696
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 7:19:27 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 6:30:54 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/1/2016 5:57:19 AM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 11/1/2016 5:48:43 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

If your life was eternal, it would have no beginning or end.
Put yourself in a situation where you would simply exist without beginning or end, in a timeless zone where you can create time if you wanted it. You would know every outcome of every action you would ever take or want to take. You know about the cause and effect of many things if you really think about it. Knowing that, does not limit you to doing only one thing and not doing anything differently, especially if you were an immortal being with all of eternity on your hands as well as the ability to manipulate time. Heck, you could be an infinite amount of things and have an infinite amount of choices at the same time and live in an infinite amount of time zones and do all you can ever imagine for all eternity. How could that ever be boring?
Have you ever read a "choose your own story" book? In those books there are many outcomes and all of them are prewritten and you can get to them all by following different pages in the book. Now imagine that type of book with infinite choices to make in an infinite cause and effect scenario. If you could be in all places at once and do all you ever dreamed of doing, good or bad, would you be bored for eternity and lack some drive to live ?

Now that concept actually has some merit. Could be fun. Except that's not the way God is presented in any version of theology I've ever come across. He was around forever (that's a super long time) before he decided to create the universe. What was he doing all that time? Then, for 14 billion years or so, he basically does whatever he's known he was going to do <yawn>. When the universe dies of heat death in another dozen billion years or so, what will he do then? I guess go back to doing what he was doing before, or maybe make a new universe. I do think it would get tedious, other than if he could play around with the acid drop idea you suggested. And even then, don't you think eventually he would just wish it would all go away?

The way God is presented in the bible and by religion is very boring.
I "see" God in the same way that I "see" Mother Nature and Father Time, as personifications of perfectly natural forces. They have also been around forever. What were they doing before they decided to create a "big bang" in the mind of a priest who wanted to be a scientist and obviously had enough influence in both fields to con both types of people into believing his theories and/or faith?
Mother Nature knows what she will do in 14 billion years from today because it is the same thing she has been doing for the last 14 billion years. ... Fooling humans with Father Time.
It's a laugh a second. Quite comical when you sit and watch the actors on the stage of life all trying to outdo each other and try to figure out where everything began or when it will end.
Don't you know that time is just an illusion which fools people into believing things have an age ?
Atoms are timeless. They have no age.
All things are made of atoms. Therefore logically all things are timeless.
The stages of growth and change that physical things go though are nothing but ageless, timeless, atoms moving around in space.

Nice theory, but atoms do have an age, since they are formed inside stars. Furthermore the second equation of motion tells us without time, things can't move:

s = ut + 1/2 at^2

But it is quite cool to think that all of the stuff that makes up your body was, quite literally, once part of a star.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 11:06:45 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 7:16:44 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

ooh yay, a time question...

God is not inside time, looking forward and back, God is outside of time, looking at it in much the same way as you don't see your monitor one pixel at a time.

That doesn't address the issue unless I am missing something.

Besides, a being outside of time is incoherent. You say he is looking at it (the universe) but how does he see anything without being in the universe and intercepting photons? In what way does he see? Without time he cannot act either since action has no meaning atemporally. In fact, in what sense could you even say that this being exists?
keithprosser
Posts: 2,053
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 12:04:22 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
I think all these arguments about god's existence that hinge on the definition of words like 'omniscience' and 'perfection' are only amusing exercises in formal logic.

They certainly don't tell us anything about 'God', or even a god. They tell us something about a 'hypothetical omnipotent entity', and may be even that such an entity can't exist (or is at least logically inconsitent), but a god (were we to entertain the idea of gods at all) doesn't have to be literally omnipotent or omniscient etc. A god certainly need to be very nearly omnipotent and very nearly omniscient, but it is very inconvenient for the logician to allow for 'very nearlies', so they don't.

A god doesn't have to be literally omniscient. He only needs to know enough to know if you have been good or bad (like father Christmas). To know that for each of 7 billion people on earth (and perhas more than that elewhere) is impressive enough, even it falls short of requiring true 'omniscience'. One can say the same for an entity capable of creating a universe in 6 days - mightily impressive, but a truly omnipotent entity could do it instantly!

So do we have sound logical grounds for doubting god exists (or has free will whatever) if we grant He is enormously powerful and very nearly all knowing rather than having such qualities in infinite degree?

However I have a remarkable proof of God's (or rather any god's) non-existence. It is unfortunate this edit box is too small to contain it.
Skeptical1
Posts: 696
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 12:35:27 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 12:04:22 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I think all these arguments about god's existence that hinge on the definition of words like 'omniscience' and 'perfection' are only amusing exercises in formal logic.

They certainly don't tell us anything about 'God', or even a god. They tell us something about a 'hypothetical omnipotent entity', and may be even that such an entity can't exist (or is at least logically inconsitent), but a god (were we to entertain the idea of gods at all) doesn't have to be literally omnipotent or omniscient etc. A god certainly need to be very nearly omnipotent and very nearly omniscient, but it is very inconvenient for the logician to allow for 'very nearlies', so they don't.

A god doesn't have to be literally omniscient. He only needs to know enough to know if you have been good or bad (like father Christmas). To know that for each of 7 billion people on earth (and perhas more than that elewhere) is impressive enough, even it falls short of requiring true 'omniscience'. One can say the same for an entity capable of creating a universe in 6 days - mightily impressive, but a truly omnipotent entity could do it instantly!

So do we have sound logical grounds for doubting god exists (or has free will whatever) if we grant He is enormously powerful and very nearly all knowing rather than having such qualities in infinite degree?

However I have a remarkable proof of God's (or rather any god's) non-existence. It is unfortunate this edit box is too small to contain it.

Take as many boxes as you need ;-)
Skeptical1
Posts: 696
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 12:49:23 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 12:04:22 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I think all these arguments about god's existence that hinge on the definition of words like 'omniscience' and 'perfection' are only amusing exercises in formal logic.

They certainly don't tell us anything about 'God', or even a god. They tell us something about a 'hypothetical omnipotent entity', and may be even that such an entity can't exist (or is at least logically inconsitent), but a god (were we to entertain the idea of gods at all) doesn't have to be literally omnipotent or omniscient etc. A god certainly need to be very nearly omnipotent and very nearly omniscient, but it is very inconvenient for the logician to allow for 'very nearlies', so they don't.

A god doesn't have to be literally omniscient. He only needs to know enough to know if you have been good or bad (like father Christmas). To know that for each of 7 billion people on earth (and perhas more than that elewhere) is impressive enough, even it falls short of requiring true 'omniscience'. One can say the same for an entity capable of creating a universe in 6 days - mightily impressive, but a truly omnipotent entity could do it instantly!

So do we have sound logical grounds for doubting god exists (or has free will whatever) if we grant He is enormously powerful and very nearly all knowing rather than having such qualities in infinite degree?

However I have a remarkable proof of God's (or rather any god's) non-existence. It is unfortunate this edit box is too small to contain it.

Back in the days when I used to put money in the collection plate, these weren't interesting philosophical questions. Omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence (that one doesn't seem to be talked about so much these days) were things that we actually believed. Going back a couple of years before that, they are also things which people used to get burned at the stake for not believing literally. So I'm not so sure it's an "academic" exercise.

As for the 'very nearly' , that's not an easy question to answer. I suppose if he were only 'nearly' omniscient and omnipotent, then maybe the answer would be that he has "limited" free will? But in any case, I'm not sure there are many people today who think that way. Greek and Roman gods certainly would have fit the bill, but to me it seems today most people go for the "all-or-nothing" approach.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,053
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 3:13:36 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 12:49:23 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 11/1/2016 12:04:22 PM, keithprosser wrote:
Omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence (that one doesn't seem to be talked about so much these days) were things that we actually believed.

But had you really thought about what 'omnipotent' really meant, or was it in your mind just a posh word for 'super duper powerful'? I doubt you'd be encouraged by your church to think too much about the philosophical implication of truly infinite qualities and Cantor's continuum hypothesis.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 3:34:48 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 5:48:43 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

Supplementary question:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

If your life was eternal, it would have no beginning or end.
Put yourself in a situation where you would simply exist without beginning or end, in a timeless zone where you can create time if you wanted it. You would know every outcome of every action you would ever take or want to take. You know about the cause and effect of many things if you really think about it. Knowing that, does not limit you to doing only one thing and not doing anything differently, especially if you were an immortal being with all of eternity on your hands as well as the ability to manipulate time. Heck, you could be an infinite amount of things and have an infinite amount of choices at the same time and live in an infinite amount of time zones and do all you can ever imagine for all eternity. How could that ever be boring?
Have you ever read a "choose your own story" book? In those books there are many outcomes and all of them are prewritten and you can get to them all by following different pages in the book. Now imagine that type of book with infinite choices to make in an infinite cause and effect scenario. If you could be in all places at once and do all you ever dreamed of doing, good or bad, would you be bored for eternity and lack some drive to live ?
Actually as an omniscient being you have already experience all of them. There is nothing new to an omniscient being.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,283
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 5:43:36 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

Nope.

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

Yup existence itself is held in place by the very will of God.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

God does not live through time, all of creation is in the present for God

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

Actually God had perfect freedom. He had the option of choosing from any number of creations (or none at all) that would have been equally perfect.

Supplementary question:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

That is because we are not self-satisfied creatures. God is perfect and self-satisfying. He needs nothing. We are created for a purpose -> which is to love God. Hence as St. Augustine said: "Our hearts are restless until they rest in you."
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,384
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 6:37:12 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

Supplementary question:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?
It's very obvious from scripture that God does have free will.

As far as your argument, I would suggest reading (or re-reading, absorbing, etc., in that I'm not suggesting you never read it) the book of Job chapters 38-41. It's very clear that God is implying that there are some things so far beyond human comprehension, they can't be explained on human terms.

Another verse:

Deuteronomy 29:29
Parallel Verses
New International Version
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.

conveys the same idea. And the issue of time (past, present, future) I would say is one of them. We would have to face the contradictions involved with something like time travel whether God exists or not. How could we answer questions concerning God's omnipotence and omniscience when we don't even know what would happen if we went into the past, and tried to change history? You and I can't come close to answering that question. But that is something that God knows, and keeps it a mystery.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 6:41:50 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 6:37:12 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
It's very obvious from scripture that God does have free will.
And lets face it, if ya gonna believe anyone it may as well be an ignorant bronze age goatherd.
12_13
Posts: 1,365
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 11:16:43 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

If the things are good, why not?
Skeptical1
Posts: 696
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 11:26:20 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 11:16:43 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

If the things are good, why not?

Because it would get boring after the first billion trillion years or so? "What will I do today? Oh, I know.... I've always known."
Genius_Intellect
Posts: 339
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 11:45:00 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:

An omnipotent being has infinite free will, by definition.

Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

No. They are not separate abilities.

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

He doesn't know it, he plans it. God doesn't passively observe the future, he actively manifests it.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

I know I'm going to bed tonight. I've known that all day. It doesn't diminish my free will in the slightest.

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

History is God's plan unfolding. He can change anything he wants, he just chooses not to.

Supplementary question:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life.

God is timeless, so this doesn't apply to him.

Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

Sweet. No more fear of death.
Skeptical1
Posts: 696
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/1/2016 11:51:39 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 11:45:00 PM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:

An omnipotent being has infinite free will, by definition.

Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

No. They are not separate abilities.

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

He doesn't know it, he plans it. God doesn't passively observe the future, he actively manifests it.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

I know I'm going to bed tonight. I've known that all day. It doesn't diminish my free will in the slightest.

Sure it does. You have no choice but to go to bed tonight. If you didn't, it would contradict what you've known all day. If you don't go to bed tonight, then your "knowledge" would be incorrect. That might be acceptable for you, but surely it's not for God?

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

History is God's plan unfolding. He can change anything he wants, he just chooses not to.

Supplementary question:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life.

God is timeless, so this doesn't apply to him.

Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

Sweet. No more fear of death.

Why do you fear death?
lannan13
Posts: 23,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/2/2016 12:05:54 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

Supplementary question:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life. Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

If God gave us free will, why wouldn't he have it himself?
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
Genius_Intellect
Posts: 339
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/2/2016 1:52:04 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 11:51:39 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 11/1/2016 11:45:00 PM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
I know I'm going to bed tonight. I've known that all day. It doesn't diminish my free will in the slightest.

Sure it does. You have no choice but to go to bed tonight.

I could drink lots of caffeine and stay awake until the sun comes up. I could cut out my brain and stick it in a tank, without futuristic regenerative tech that avoids the need for sleep.

Don't break the analogy by focusing on the anal.

If you didn't, it would contradict what you've known all day. If you don't go to bed tonight, then your "knowledge" would be incorrect. That might be acceptable for you, but surely it's not for God?

How is it any different for God? He doesn't passively observe the future, he meticulously plans it. Everything that happens, happens because God willed it, so there's no way he could NOT plan it.

Why do you fear death?

I fear oblivion. If we had empirical proof of an afterlife, death wouldn't be an issue.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/2/2016 1:57:41 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 7:16:44 AM, VirBinarus wrote:
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

ooh yay, a time question...

God is not inside time, looking forward and back, God is outside of time, looking at it in much the same way as you don't see your monitor one pixel at a time.

Please provide your source.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/2/2016 2:03:36 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 12:04:22 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I think all these arguments about god's existence that hinge on the definition of words like 'omniscience' and 'perfection' are only amusing exercises in formal logic.

They certainly don't tell us anything about 'God', or even a god. They tell us something about a 'hypothetical omnipotent entity', and may be even that such an entity can't exist (or is at least logically inconsitent), but a god (were we to entertain the idea of gods at all) doesn't have to be literally omnipotent or omniscient etc. A god certainly need to be very nearly omnipotent and very nearly omniscient, but it is very inconvenient for the logician to allow for 'very nearlies', so they don't.

A god doesn't have to be literally omniscient. He only needs to know enough to know if you have been good or bad (like father Christmas). To know that for each of 7 billion people on earth (and perhas more than that elewhere) is impressive enough, even it falls short of requiring true 'omniscience'. One can say the same for an entity capable of creating a universe in 6 days - mightily impressive, but a truly omnipotent entity could do it instantly!

So do we have sound logical grounds for doubting god exists (or has free will whatever) if we grant He is enormously powerful and very nearly all knowing rather than having such qualities in infinite degree?

However I have a remarkable proof of God's (or rather any god's) non-existence. It is unfortunate this edit box is too small to contain it.

Keith, I'd be interested in seeing that proof if was any place you could place a link to download.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/2/2016 2:26:46 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 12:04:22 PM, keithprosser wrote:

However I have a remarkable proof of God's (or rather any god's) non-existence. It is unfortunate this edit box is too small to contain it.

I have a very simple one which no theist has been able to refute. The only attribute it relies on is that the god must not be contingent on anything which is pretty much a standard for most god belief.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/2/2016 2:48:19 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/1/2016 11:45:00 PM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
At 10/31/2016 10:24:16 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:

An omnipotent being has infinite free will, by definition.

No, it is not in the definition at all.

omnipotent
adjective
(of a deity) having unlimited power.


It is quite conceivable to have unlimited power but not have the freedom to exercise it. For example, such a being could not create a rock too big for him to move. A single instance such as this refutes your "infinite".

Are omnipotence and omniscience contradictory?

No. They are not separate abilities.

Of course, but how does that eliminate contradiction?

As opposed to deists, theists argue that God takes actions everyday affecting what goes on in the universe. Most of them also argue that God knows everything that has ever happened or ever will happen.

He doesn't know it, he plans it. God doesn't passively observe the future, he actively manifests it.

That would make God contingent on time. Are you sure that this is the route you want to take?

So how can God have anything resembling "choice" as each particular moment in time arrives, when he has known for all eternity what would happen, and what he would do?

I know I'm going to bed tonight. I've known that all day. It doesn't diminish my free will in the slightest.

Nonsense. You do not have positive knowledge that you are going to bed tonight. The probability is very high but not certain. You confuse omniscience with prediction.

Surely the entirety of history is just a playback of events God anticipated an eternity ago, and furthermore, he is incapable of doing a single thing differently from how he has always known it would be.

History is God's plan unfolding. He can change anything he wants, he just chooses not to.

No, that is the whole point. He cannot change anything otherwise his omniscience is compromised.

Supplementary question:

Put yourself in the situation where you were born knowing every single thing you would ever think, experience or do in your entire life.

God is timeless, so this doesn't apply to him.

You have just contradicted yourself. How can God plan anything if he is outside of time? In fact how can he act at all?

Would you still want to live it? How about if that life was to be never-ending?

Sweet. No more fear of death.

The discussion is actually about God, not you. You also miss the point. You would not want to live because of relentless, interminable ennui.
Skeptical1
Posts: 696
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/2/2016 3:14:45 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 11/2/2016 1:52:04 AM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
At 11/1/2016 11:51:39 PM, Skeptical1 wrote:
At 11/1/2016 11:45:00 PM, Genius_Intellect wrote:
I know I'm going to bed tonight. I've known that all day. It doesn't diminish my free will in the slightest.

Sure it does. You have no choice but to go to bed tonight.

I could drink lots of caffeine and stay awake until the sun comes up. I could cut out my brain and stick it in a tank, without futuristic regenerative tech that avoids the need for sleep.

Don't break the analogy by focusing on the anal.

If you didn't, it would contradict what you've known all day. If you don't go to bed tonight, then your "knowledge" would be incorrect. That might be acceptable for you, but surely it's not for God?

How is it any different for God? He doesn't passively observe the future, he meticulously plans it. Everything that happens, happens because God willed it, so there's no way he could NOT plan it.

Why do you fear death?

I fear oblivion. If we had empirical proof of an afterlife, death wouldn't be an issue.

That's honestly surprising. You fear what a great many take for granted. It had never occurred to me that oblivion was something to fear. Punishment or retribution, maybe. But simply ceasing to exist? Maybe it's just that I've had a few decades to get used to the idea.