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Being Gay is a SIn

noahbobo
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11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.
Willows
Posts: 2,039
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11/12/2016 11:34:01 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

Interesting that passage has been interpreted in many ways (as with all bible quotes) by bible bashers.

Nevertheless, "it is written" which homophobic Christians use to cower behind in order to justify their disgusting inground prejudice.
Casten
Posts: 391
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11/13/2016 12:26:29 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
Does Leviticus mention this practice of adult men sexually pressuring male minors into servitude, or give any indication that 18:22 was written with that in mind?
graceofgod
Posts: 5,052
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11/13/2016 12:29:32 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

according to the bible homosexuality is a sin, as is any sexual immorality...
noahbobo
Posts: 11
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11/13/2016 12:34:03 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 12:29:32 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

according to the bible homosexuality is a sin, as is any sexual immorality...

I'd love it if you could give me some actual proof. Maybe an unbiased article, bible verse, or even... some context? The bible never specifically said that homosexuality is a sin. It said a man having sex with a man is a sin, in the way you're interpreting it, which could definitely be debated. Of course it could be interpreted in many different ways. Try to actually give reasons when you say something.
noahbobo
Posts: 11
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11/13/2016 12:38:11 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 12:26:29 AM, Casten wrote:
Does Leviticus mention this practice of adult men sexually pressuring male minors into servitude, or give any indication that 18:22 was written with that in mind?

Does it give any indication that it was written in the mind of being against gay people? We don't know. It's based on interpretation.
Casten
Posts: 391
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11/13/2016 12:48:14 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 12:38:11 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:26:29 AM, Casten wrote:
Does Leviticus mention this practice of adult men sexually pressuring male minors into servitude, or give any indication that 18:22 was written with that in mind?

Does it give any indication that it was written in the mind of being against gay people? We don't know. It's based on interpretation.

Absolutely it is. I'm just asking what arguments you have that give your interpretation more weight than someone who interprets homosexuality to be a sin according to scripture. "Abomination" is pretty strong language.
distraff
Posts: 1,004
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11/13/2016 12:58:26 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

The verse simply says to not lie with mankind as with womankind. Gay sex was also common back then too, and the verse only mentions gay sex not anything about young boys?

Older men also sexually abuse little girls too. Why did this verse only bad men lying with men and not even mention pedophilia, little boys, or lying with little girls?

Why didn't the verse say:
"Adults shall not lay with children as they lay with other adults."

There are also many other verses all over the bible that ban gay sex specifically banning "sodomy", and those who are "effeminate." These terms mainly define adult sex. None of them mention sex with children and only ban gay sex. The meaning is clear.

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Deuteronomy 23:17: " There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel."

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

1 Corinthian 6:9: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind."

1 Timothy 1:9:10: "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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11/13/2016 1:00:17 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

Why do you think that?

The problem I have with that interpretation is that the actual words indicate a more blanket prohibition against same sex relationships than merely particular types of same sex relationships. It could be that what gave rise to the prohibition was the fact that there were male sex slaves, but the command appears to prohibit more than just that. It seems to prohibit any male/male sexual relationship, regardless of the circumstances. There are no qualifications to the command at all.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
noahbobo
Posts: 11
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11/13/2016 1:00:40 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 12:48:14 AM, Casten wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:38:11 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:26:29 AM, Casten wrote:
Does Leviticus mention this practice of adult men sexually pressuring male minors into servitude, or give any indication that 18:22 was written with that in mind?

Does it give any indication that it was written in the mind of being against gay people? We don't know. It's based on interpretation.

Absolutely it is. I'm just asking what arguments you have that give your interpretation more weight than someone who interprets homosexuality to be a sin according to scripture. "Abomination" is pretty strong language.

Pederasty was extremely common in ancient Greek. It was developed in the late 7th century BC. Grown men had sexual relations with young men, and in return, the "eromenos" (young boy) would give his beauty, youth, and promise, aka, the eromenos would work for the grown man. Men lying with men could be in reference to grown men seducing the young ones.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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11/13/2016 1:01:42 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 12:34:03 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:29:32 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

according to the bible homosexuality is a sin, as is any sexual immorality...

I'd love it if you could give me some actual proof. Maybe an unbiased article, bible verse, or even... some context? The bible never specifically said that homosexuality is a sin. It said a man having sex with a man is a sin, in the way you're interpreting it, which could definitely be debated. Of course it could be interpreted in many different ways. Try to actually give reasons when you say something.

You should do the same. I'd like to know why you think Leviticus 18:22 applies only to 30-40 year old men seducing young boys.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
noahbobo
Posts: 11
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11/13/2016 1:03:56 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 12:58:26 AM, distraff wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

The verse simply says to not lie with mankind as with womankind. Gay sex was also common back then too, and the verse only mentions gay sex not anything about young boys?

Older men also sexually abuse little girls too. Why did this verse only bad men lying with men and not even mention pedophilia, little boys, or lying with little girls?


Why didn't the verse say:
"Adults shall not lay with children as they lay with other adults."

There are also many other verses all over the bible that ban gay sex specifically banning "sodomy", and those who are "effeminate." These terms mainly define adult sex. None of them mention sex with children and only ban gay sex. The meaning is clear.

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Deuteronomy 23:17: " There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel."

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

1 Corinthian 6:9: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind."

1 Timothy 1:9:10: "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

The bible is very vague, and that's why so many people interpret it differently.
noahbobo
Posts: 11
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11/13/2016 1:10:33 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 1:01:42 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:34:03 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:29:32 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

according to the bible homosexuality is a sin, as is any sexual immorality...

I'd love it if you could give me some actual proof. Maybe an unbiased article, bible verse, or even... some context? The bible never specifically said that homosexuality is a sin. It said a man having sex with a man is a sin, in the way you're interpreting it, which could definitely be debated. Of course it could be interpreted in many different ways. Try to actually give reasons when you say something.

You should do the same. I'd like to know why you think Leviticus 18:22 applies only to 30-40 year old men seducing young boys.

I did say, pederasty was very common in ancient Greece. It's likely that that verse could be in reference to pederasty. And where did I say it applies only to that? The verse could be interpreted in so many different ways, it's dizzying.
distraff
Posts: 1,004
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11/13/2016 1:11:10 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 1:03:56 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:58:26 AM, distraff wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

The verse simply says to not lie with mankind as with womankind. Gay sex was also common back then too, and the verse only mentions gay sex not anything about young boys?

Older men also sexually abuse little girls too. Why did this verse only bad men lying with men and not even mention pedophilia, little boys, or lying with little girls?


Why didn't the verse say:
"Adults shall not lay with children as they lay with other adults."

There are also many other verses all over the bible that ban gay sex specifically banning "sodomy", and those who are "effeminate." These terms mainly define adult sex. None of them mention sex with children and only ban gay sex. The meaning is clear.

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Deuteronomy 23:17: " There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel."

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

1 Corinthian 6:9: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind."

1 Timothy 1:9:10: "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

The bible is very vague, and that's why so many people interpret it differently.

But not about gays. There there many verses banning gay sex very specifically and I gave you just a small sample. There are fewer verses about the golden rule than there are about gay sex. Should we just interpret every rule in the bible to be consistent with your cultural beliefs? Then what is the point of the bible?
noahbobo
Posts: 11
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11/13/2016 1:16:09 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 1:11:10 AM, distraff wrote:
At 11/13/2016 1:03:56 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:58:26 AM, distraff wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

The verse simply says to not lie with mankind as with womankind. Gay sex was also common back then too, and the verse only mentions gay sex not anything about young boys?

Older men also sexually abuse little girls too. Why did this verse only bad men lying with men and not even mention pedophilia, little boys, or lying with little girls?


Why didn't the verse say:
"Adults shall not lay with children as they lay with other adults."

There are also many other verses all over the bible that ban gay sex specifically banning "sodomy", and those who are "effeminate." These terms mainly define adult sex. None of them mention sex with children and only ban gay sex. The meaning is clear.

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Deuteronomy 23:17: " There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel."

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

1 Corinthian 6:9: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind."

1 Timothy 1:9:10: "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

The bible is very vague, and that's why so many people interpret it differently.

But not about gays. There there many verses banning gay sex very specifically and I gave you just a small sample. There are fewer verses about the golden rule than there are about gay sex. Should we just interpret every rule in the bible to be consistent with your cultural beliefs? Then what is the point of the bible?

I don't know, what is the point of the bible? Nothing in the bible is actually specific, you're argument is flawed there.
Casten
Posts: 391
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11/13/2016 1:17:15 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 1:00:40 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:48:14 AM, Casten wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:38:11 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:26:29 AM, Casten wrote:
Does Leviticus mention this practice of adult men sexually pressuring male minors into servitude, or give any indication that 18:22 was written with that in mind?

Does it give any indication that it was written in the mind of being against gay people? We don't know. It's based on interpretation.

Absolutely it is. I'm just asking what arguments you have that give your interpretation more weight than someone who interprets homosexuality to be a sin according to scripture. "Abomination" is pretty strong language.

Pederasty was extremely common in ancient Greek. It was developed in the late 7th century BC. Grown men had sexual relations with young men, and in return, the "eromenos" (young boy) would give his beauty, youth, and promise, aka, the eromenos would work for the grown man. Men lying with men could be in reference to grown men seducing the young ones.

But it being common in that region at that time does not mean Leviticus was written with specifically that practice in mind. It simply stresses that a male shall not lie with a male as with a woman. There is no language used that expresses boys, minors, or youth.

Believe me, I'd love to find out that the Old Testament is more tolerant of homosexuality than advertised, but I need a reason to believe your interpretation. "Pederasty was occurring elsewhere around the same time and could have been a contributing factor" does not mean this passage was meant to apply only to pederasty.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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11/13/2016 1:18:40 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 1:10:33 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 1:01:42 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:34:03 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:29:32 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

according to the bible homosexuality is a sin, as is any sexual immorality...

I'd love it if you could give me some actual proof. Maybe an unbiased article, bible verse, or even... some context? The bible never specifically said that homosexuality is a sin. It said a man having sex with a man is a sin, in the way you're interpreting it, which could definitely be debated. Of course it could be interpreted in many different ways. Try to actually give reasons when you say something.

You should do the same. I'd like to know why you think Leviticus 18:22 applies only to 30-40 year old men seducing young boys.

I did say, pederasty was very common in ancient Greece. It's likely that that verse could be in reference to pederasty. And where did I say it applies only to that? The verse could be interpreted in so many different ways, it's dizzying.

I apologize if I misunderstood you. I got my misunderstanding from your original post. You said, "Do you believe it is [a sin to be gay]? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys generally under 18) into working for them." If you don't think that's all Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to, then why use that as a reason for thinking it does NOT refer to homosexual relationships?

How does it follow that because pederasty was very common in ancient Greece that therefore Leviticus 18:22 is talking about pederasty? Is it your position that the Greeks had some influence on ancient Hebrews or vice versa? If so, what do you base that on?

If you don't think Leviticus 18:22 is limited to pederasty, then what is your pointing in bringing up pederasty? What does it have to do with anything? What else do you think Leviticus 18:22 refers to besides pederasty? Why?
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
distraff
Posts: 1,004
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11/13/2016 1:27:59 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 1:16:09 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 1:11:10 AM, distraff wrote:
At 11/13/2016 1:03:56 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:58:26 AM, distraff wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

The verse simply says to not lie with mankind as with womankind. Gay sex was also common back then too, and the verse only mentions gay sex not anything about young boys?

Older men also sexually abuse little girls too. Why did this verse only bad men lying with men and not even mention pedophilia, little boys, or lying with little girls?


Why didn't the verse say:
"Adults shall not lay with children as they lay with other adults."

There are also many other verses all over the bible that ban gay sex specifically banning "sodomy", and those who are "effeminate." These terms mainly define adult sex. None of them mention sex with children and only ban gay sex. The meaning is clear.

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Deuteronomy 23:17: " There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel."

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

1 Corinthian 6:9: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind."

1 Timothy 1:9:10: "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

The bible is very vague, and that's why so many people interpret it differently.

But not about gays. There there many verses banning gay sex very specifically and I gave you just a small sample. There are fewer verses about the golden rule than there are about gay sex. Should we just interpret every rule in the bible to be consistent with your cultural beliefs? Then what is the point of the bible?

I don't know, what is the point of the bible? Nothing in the bible is actually specific, you're argument is flawed there.

No, the bible is very specific in many places. The verse literally says don't lay with men as you do with women. How more specific can you get? You have a dozen other verses that all say the same thing very specifically. I literally give you many very specific verses and you are just claiming they are not specific when they very much are.

Before the gay rights movement every Christian religion disapproved of gay sex along with the vast majority of Christians. That is how clear the bible was.
noahbobo
Posts: 11
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11/13/2016 1:29:02 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 1:18:40 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/13/2016 1:10:33 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 1:01:42 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:34:03 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:29:32 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

according to the bible homosexuality is a sin, as is any sexual immorality...

I'd love it if you could give me some actual proof. Maybe an unbiased article, bible verse, or even... some context? The bible never specifically said that homosexuality is a sin. It said a man having sex with a man is a sin, in the way you're interpreting it, which could definitely be debated. Of course it could be interpreted in many different ways. Try to actually give reasons when you say something.

You should do the same. I'd like to know why you think Leviticus 18:22 applies only to 30-40 year old men seducing young boys.

I did say, pederasty was very common in ancient Greece. It's likely that that verse could be in reference to pederasty. And where did I say it applies only to that? The verse could be interpreted in so many different ways, it's dizzying.

I apologize if I misunderstood you. I got my misunderstanding from your original post. You said, "Do you believe it is [a sin to be gay]? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys generally under 18) into working for them." If you don't think that's all Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to, then why use that as a reason for thinking it does NOT refer to homosexual relationships?

How does it follow that because pederasty was very common in ancient Greece that therefore Leviticus 18:22 is talking about pederasty? Is it your position that the Greeks had some influence on ancient Hebrews or vice versa? If so, what do you base that on?

If you don't think Leviticus 18:22 is limited to pederasty, then what is your pointing in bringing up pederasty? What does it have to do with anything? What else do you think Leviticus 18:22 refers to besides pederasty? Why?

I believe pederasty is a very likely interpretation on the verse, and it's the first one that comes to mind, which is why I mentioned it. I think it could definitely be in reference to gay relationships. Though there is no translation of homosexual and heterosexual in Greek, it could be talking about gay people. It's odd, though, because it's impossible to have sexual relations with a man as you would with a woman. Most men don't have vaginas, so no man could lie with a man as he could with a woman.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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11/13/2016 1:33:18 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 1:29:02 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 1:18:40 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/13/2016 1:10:33 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 1:01:42 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:34:03 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:29:32 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

according to the bible homosexuality is a sin, as is any sexual immorality...

I'd love it if you could give me some actual proof. Maybe an unbiased article, bible verse, or even... some context? The bible never specifically said that homosexuality is a sin. It said a man having sex with a man is a sin, in the way you're interpreting it, which could definitely be debated. Of course it could be interpreted in many different ways. Try to actually give reasons when you say something.

You should do the same. I'd like to know why you think Leviticus 18:22 applies only to 30-40 year old men seducing young boys.

I did say, pederasty was very common in ancient Greece. It's likely that that verse could be in reference to pederasty. And where did I say it applies only to that? The verse could be interpreted in so many different ways, it's dizzying.

I apologize if I misunderstood you. I got my misunderstanding from your original post. You said, "Do you believe it is [a sin to be gay]? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys generally under 18) into working for them." If you don't think that's all Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to, then why use that as a reason for thinking it does NOT refer to homosexual relationships?

How does it follow that because pederasty was very common in ancient Greece that therefore Leviticus 18:22 is talking about pederasty? Is it your position that the Greeks had some influence on ancient Hebrews or vice versa? If so, what do you base that on?

If you don't think Leviticus 18:22 is limited to pederasty, then what is your pointing in bringing up pederasty? What does it have to do with anything? What else do you think Leviticus 18:22 refers to besides pederasty? Why?

I believe pederasty is a very likely interpretation on the verse, and it's the first one that comes to mind, which is why I mentioned it. I think it could definitely be in reference to gay relationships. Though there is no translation of homosexual and heterosexual in Greek, it could be talking about gay people. It's odd, though, because it's impossible to have sexual relations with a man as you would with a woman. Most men don't have vaginas, so no man could lie with a man as he could with a woman.

You seem to have backed off from your original claim. You claimed (or at least implied) at the beginning of this thread that you do not think Leviticus 18:22 refers to homosexual relationships, but now you grant that it might. I suppose that's improvement, so I'll bow out now.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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11/13/2016 11:12:56 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
Being Gay is a SIn in bronze age Palestine according to one old book.
Straightened that out.
You're welcome. snicker.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
rnjs
Posts: 378
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11/13/2016 11:44:54 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 1:03:56 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:58:26 AM, distraff wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

The verse simply says to not lie with mankind as with womankind. Gay sex was also common back then too, and the verse only mentions gay sex not anything about young boys?

Older men also sexually abuse little girls too. Why did this verse only bad men lying with men and not even mention pedophilia, little boys, or lying with little girls?


Why didn't the verse say:
"Adults shall not lay with children as they lay with other adults."

There are also many other verses all over the bible that ban gay sex specifically banning "sodomy", and those who are "effeminate." These terms mainly define adult sex. None of them mention sex with children and only ban gay sex. The meaning is clear.

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Deuteronomy 23:17: " There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel."

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

1 Corinthian 6:9: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind."

1 Timothy 1:9:10: "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

The bible is very vague, and that's why so many people interpret it differently.

The Bible is very clear, it's mans failure to apply proper grammar to it that make it seem otherwise.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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11/13/2016 11:48:55 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 11:44:54 AM, rnjs wrote:
At 11/13/2016 1:03:56 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:58:26 AM, distraff wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

The verse simply says to not lie with mankind as with womankind. Gay sex was also common back then too, and the verse only mentions gay sex not anything about young boys?

Older men also sexually abuse little girls too. Why did this verse only bad men lying with men and not even mention pedophilia, little boys, or lying with little girls?


Why didn't the verse say:
"Adults shall not lay with children as they lay with other adults."

There are also many other verses all over the bible that ban gay sex specifically banning "sodomy", and those who are "effeminate." These terms mainly define adult sex. None of them mention sex with children and only ban gay sex. The meaning is clear.

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Deuteronomy 23:17: " There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel."

Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

1 Corinthian 6:9: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind."

1 Timothy 1:9:10: "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

The bible is very vague, and that's why so many people interpret it differently.




The Bible is very clear, it's mans failure to apply proper grammar to it that make it seem otherwise.
What was the grammar in use in bronze age palestine??
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Willows
Posts: 2,039
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11/13/2016 12:12:42 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 1:10:33 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 1:01:42 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:34:03 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:29:32 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

according to the bible homosexuality is a sin, as is any sexual immorality...

I'd love it if you could give me some actual proof. Maybe an unbiased article, bible verse, or even... some context? The bible never specifically said that homosexuality is a sin. It said a man having sex with a man is a sin, in the way you're interpreting it, which could definitely be debated. Of course it could be interpreted in many different ways. Try to actually give reasons when you say something.

You should do the same. I'd like to know why you think Leviticus 18:22 applies only to 30-40 year old men seducing young boys.

I did say, pederasty was very common in ancient Greece. It's likely that that verse could be in reference to pederasty. And where did I say it applies only to that? The verse could be interpreted in so many different ways, it's dizzying.

I'm afraid that you have gotten yourself in the poop, so to speak, over your OT.
Everyone on this page is rather puzzled at your interpretation of Leviticus 18:22 where there is no evidence of a reference to men sleeping with young boys.

It's bad enough that deluded Godists make bizarre interpretations of bible passages without encouraging them.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,052
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11/13/2016 3:00:56 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 12:34:03 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:29:32 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

according to the bible homosexuality is a sin, as is any sexual immorality...

I'd love it if you could give me some actual proof. Maybe an unbiased article, bible verse, or even... some context? The bible never specifically said that homosexuality is a sin. It said a man having sex with a man is a sin, in the way you're interpreting it, which could definitely be debated. Of course it could be interpreted in many different ways. Try to actually give reasons when you say something.
romans 1
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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11/13/2016 3:04:23 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 3:00:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:34:03 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:29:32 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

according to the bible homosexuality is a sin, as is any sexual immorality...

I'd love it if you could give me some actual proof. Maybe an unbiased article, bible verse, or even... some context? The bible never specifically said that homosexuality is a sin. It said a man having sex with a man is a sin, in the way you're interpreting it, which could definitely be debated. Of course it could be interpreted in many different ways. Try to actually give reasons when you say something.
romans 1
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
Bronze age goats supply this ignoramuses understanding of everything and we can see that from his posts.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,598
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11/13/2016 3:56:44 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 3:00:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:34:03 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:29:32 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

according to the bible homosexuality is a sin, as is any sexual immorality...

I'd love it if you could give me some actual proof. Maybe an unbiased article, bible verse, or even... some context? The bible never specifically said that homosexuality is a sin. It said a man having sex with a man is a sin, in the way you're interpreting it, which could definitely be debated. Of course it could be interpreted in many different ways. Try to actually give reasons when you say something.
romans 1
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

The long letter written by Paul in 57AD was directed at the Romans, the recipients of the letter. At this time Nero was Caesar and Rome was undergoing the start of it's collapse as all sorts of corruption and depravity were running rampant.

The verse itself has nothing to do with how gays live their lives today in modern society. The verse is completely irrelevant, yet you drag it out and use it as your banner of hatred in intolerance. Stupid Christian.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
MasonicSlayer
Posts: 2,287
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11/13/2016 5:13:45 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 3:56:44 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/13/2016 3:00:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:34:03 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:29:32 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

according to the bible homosexuality is a sin, as is any sexual immorality...

I'd love it if you could give me some actual proof. Maybe an unbiased article, bible verse, or even... some context? The bible never specifically said that homosexuality is a sin. It said a man having sex with a man is a sin, in the way you're interpreting it, which could definitely be debated. Of course it could be interpreted in many different ways. Try to actually give reasons when you say something.
romans 1
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

The long letter written by Paul in 57AD was directed at the Romans, the recipients of the letter. At this time Nero was Caesar and Rome was undergoing the start of it's collapse as all sorts of corruption and depravity were running rampant.

The verse itself has nothing to do with how gays live their lives today in modern society. The verse is completely irrelevant, yet you drag it out and use it as your banner of hatred in intolerance. Stupid Christian.

Who do you think was this "depraved mind" that God handed humanity over to continue doing what ought not to be done?
graceofgod
Posts: 5,052
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11/13/2016 5:33:15 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 3:56:44 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/13/2016 3:00:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:34:03 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:29:32 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

according to the bible homosexuality is a sin, as is any sexual immorality...

I'd love it if you could give me some actual proof. Maybe an unbiased article, bible verse, or even... some context? The bible never specifically said that homosexuality is a sin. It said a man having sex with a man is a sin, in the way you're interpreting it, which could definitely be debated. Of course it could be interpreted in many different ways. Try to actually give reasons when you say something.
romans 1
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

The long letter written by Paul in 57AD was directed at the Romans, the recipients of the letter. At this time Nero was Caesar and Rome was undergoing the start of it's collapse as all sorts of corruption and depravity were running rampant.

The verse itself has nothing to do with how gays live their lives today in modern society. The verse is completely irrelevant, yet you drag it out and use it as your banner of hatred in intolerance. Stupid Christian.

it says what it is, gay is a sexual perversion, God does not want you doing it...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,598
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11/13/2016 6:20:41 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/13/2016 5:33:15 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/13/2016 3:56:44 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/13/2016 3:00:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:34:03 AM, noahbobo wrote:
At 11/13/2016 12:29:32 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/12/2016 11:20:18 PM, noahbobo wrote:
Do you believe it is? I don't. I believe Leviticus 18:22 is in reference to when 30-40 year old men seduced young boys (generally under 18) into working for them. It was actually a quite common occurrence when the Bible was written.

according to the bible homosexuality is a sin, as is any sexual immorality...

I'd love it if you could give me some actual proof. Maybe an unbiased article, bible verse, or even... some context? The bible never specifically said that homosexuality is a sin. It said a man having sex with a man is a sin, in the way you're interpreting it, which could definitely be debated. Of course it could be interpreted in many different ways. Try to actually give reasons when you say something.
romans 1
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

The long letter written by Paul in 57AD was directed at the Romans, the recipients of the letter. At this time Nero was Caesar and Rome was undergoing the start of it's collapse as all sorts of corruption and depravity were running rampant.

The verse itself has nothing to do with how gays live their lives today in modern society. The verse is completely irrelevant, yet you drag it out and use it as your banner of hatred in intolerance. Stupid Christian.

it says what it is, gay is a sexual perversion, God does not want you doing it...

Yes, that's what I said, you will hold it up as a banner for hatred and intolerance. Thank you for providing confirmation.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth