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Jesus' crucifixion was not a sacrifice

cameron339
Posts: 72
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11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.
missmedic
Posts: 390
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11/16/2016 8:07:53 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

Also note: an eternal being taking two days off, does not a death payment make.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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11/16/2016 8:26:53 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

Jesus's crucifixion or sacrifice or suicide has been well litigated and concluded Jesus was crucified and he had also planned his exit which amounted to suicide.

Jesus was not sacrificed, he was crucified according to the scriptures. This totally invalidates God's sacrifice of his only begotten son Jesus as a sacrificial offering for the atonement of our sins and for our salvation. Sacrificial offerings are made by man to God. The Christians got it wrong when they declared Jesus was a sacrifice offered to man by God or by God to himself.

Scriptures tell us Jesus was crucified.

Luke 23:21 But they kept shouting, "Crucify him! Crucify him!"

Sacrificial offerings must be made in the temple or house of God. Jesus was crucified in a public area. No sacrificial rituals were followed in his preparation because he was crucified not sacrificed.

2 Chronicles 7: 11"Thus Solomon finished the house of the Lord and the king"s house; all that Solomon had planned to do in the house of the Lord and in his own house he successfully accomplished.
God"s Second Appearance to Solomon
12"Then the Lord appeared to Solomon in the night and said to him: "I have heard your prayer, and have chosen this place for myself as a house of sacrifice.
---
2) Jesus did not come to abolish the Law/Torah of Moses or the Prophets; He came to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). That is, He was the ultimate embodiment and epitome of it. Furthermore, nothing from the Law/Torah and Prophets will disappear until the present heaven and earth will pass away (5:18), which will not be until the end of the Millennium (Revelation 20:11, 21:1) comes. The Torah was filled with specifications, requirements, and conditions for sacrifices (for instance, in Leviticus 23:12,19,37, Deuteronomy 12:6,11,27, and in numerous other places).

3) The ancient sacrificial laws, given by God to Moses, never were associated with salvation. That is, the priests of Israel did not perform sacrifices so that they or the people could attain eternal salvation; they were done to atone for sins, temporarily, until the next set of sins were committed.
---
Human sacrifice. God expressly forbids it:
* Deuteronomy 12:31: You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
* Deuteronomy 18:9-12: When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire...Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.
and its practice is described as evil:
* 2 Kings 16:3: He walked in the ways of the kings of Israel and even sacrificed his son in the fire, following the detestable ways of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.
* Psalm 106:38: They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood.
* Jeremiah 19:4-5: For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned sacrifices in it to gods that neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah ever knew, and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal - something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

As noted, the priests of Israel did not perform sacrifices so that they or the people could attain eternal salvation; they were done to atone for sins, temporarily, until the next set of sins were committed.
Jesus was crucified. He death neither atoned for sins nor could it have resulted in salvation for believers.

So why do Christians continue to call Jesus's crucifixion a sacrifice? Surely they must know the difference now that I have removed all reasonable doubts Jesus was crucified, not sacrificed. Harikrish.
http://www.debate.org...
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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11/17/2016 11:14:36 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:

Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with)

Ok. But are you aware that your analogy is totally false if you mean it to analogize Jesus' sacrifice for us? It seems that you do think it is a correct analogy for Jesus sacrifice.

You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability.

The foundation? Who made it so? The Bible tells us that the plan of salvation was in effect before the creation of the world. So which "foundation of morality" should God have used? His yet to be created fleas? Do you even have a clue of what morality is?

So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins,

No one is absolved of their sins. It would behoove you to read the Bible a little before you post here. But if you're a troll, never mind. Jesus frees us for the penalty of our sins. The Bible says even Christians, and especially Christians, will answer for their sin. Judgement begins at home.

....you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

Yet if I were to ask you a few questions about morality, your illogic and moral bankruptcy would quickly become apparent.

So from your false analogy, we see that you do not know the doctrine of salvation, and from your illogical comments on morality you do not know what morality is. But none of that stopped you from posting this bit of ignorance.

Well done.
Silly_Billy
Posts: 653
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11/17/2016 11:57:34 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 11:14:36 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins,

No one is absolved of their sins. It would behoove you to read the Bible a little before you post here. But if you're a troll, never mind. Jesus frees us for the penalty of our sins. The Bible says even Christians, and especially Christians, will answer for their sin. Judgement begins at home.


Sorry for crashing in on this particular point but reading your reply i had to wonder, what exactly do you mean with Jesus frees us for the penalty of our sins. You say there is still Judgement, but what is a Judgement without a penatly? Would that not be the same as a killer being brought to justice and found guilty but not being punished for it?
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,198
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11/17/2016 1:29:52 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 11:57:34 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 11/17/2016 11:14:36 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins,

No one is absolved of their sins. It would behoove you to read the Bible a little before you post here. But if you're a troll, never mind. Jesus frees us for the penalty of our sins. The Bible says even Christians, and especially Christians, will answer for their sin. Judgement begins at home.


Sorry for crashing in on this particular point but reading your reply i had to wonder, what exactly do you mean with Jesus frees us for the penalty of our sins. You say there is still Judgement, but what is a Judgement without a penatly? Would that not be the same as a killer being brought to justice and found guilty but not being punished for it?

Jewish tradition required attainment for sin.
Sometimes this was very harsh, like death. You sin, you die - in some cases. Other times, sacrifice a dove, lamb or such. Always there was a cost associated with sin.

Jesus took that sin upon himself.
Ask and it shall be forgiven. No penalty. A free ride of sorts, forgiveness by the blood of Christ, shed for you, part of the communion service, the Lord's supper.

It is worth noting that George Washington never participated in communion during or after his presidency. He saw no need, indicating he probably did not recognise Jesus as the sacrificial lamb.
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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11/17/2016 1:38:02 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 11:57:34 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 11/17/2016 11:14:36 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:

So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins,

No one is absolved of their sins. It would behoove you to read the Bible a little before you post here. But if you're a troll, never mind. Jesus frees us for the penalty of our sins. The Bible says even Christians, and especially Christians, will answer for their sin. Judgement begins at home.

Sorry for crashing in on this particular point but reading your reply i had to wonder, what exactly do you mean with Jesus frees us for the penalty of our sins.

All sin has the same penalty. Death. The real one (the 2nd death). Jesus saves us from that.

You say there is still Judgement, but what is a Judgement without a penatly? Would that not be the same as a killer being brought to justice and found guilty but not being punished for it?

If you were caught molesting a 5 year old girl, the penalty is jail time. But would you feel embarrassed? Ashamed? Could you lose your job? Your wife? Custody of your kids? Lose future benefits? Be tortured by your conscience?

The Bible describes this as salvation as if by fire. Judgement will not be easy on anyone. And us Christians will be judged first and more stringently, because we say we know. No evil escapes judgement, and no good goes unrewarded.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,198
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11/17/2016 1:52:22 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
Christ died at age 33.
At the time of Jesus life expectancy was about 30, although if a child lived to be 10, they could expect to make it to 47. Of course these are averages.

Jesus the man, had a full life, did not really die that prematurely.

I always found it strange that the death of Jesus the man was a great sacrifice for himself, God, and mankind, when Christ the savior had eternal life.
Three days separation seems a small price to pay, compared to eternity, as someone else pointed out.

Many believers are brought to tears when thinking of his suffering on the cross, but really, many martyrs suffered much greater pain, and did it gladly, with joy in their hearts.
tarantula
Posts: 862
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11/17/2016 1:56:04 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

I know some idiots believe in the, once 'saved', always 'saved' garbage! They believe once they have got 'saved' they will stay 'saved', however bad they are in the future! What a perverted dogma!
Silly_Billy
Posts: 653
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11/17/2016 2:00:59 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 1:38:02 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 11/17/2016 11:57:34 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 11/17/2016 11:14:36 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:

So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins,

No one is absolved of their sins. It would behoove you to read the Bible a little before you post here. But if you're a troll, never mind. Jesus frees us for the penalty of our sins. The Bible says even Christians, and especially Christians, will answer for their sin. Judgement begins at home.

Sorry for crashing in on this particular point but reading your reply i had to wonder, what exactly do you mean with Jesus frees us for the penalty of our sins.

All sin has the same penalty. Death. The real one (the 2nd death). Jesus saves us from that.

You say there is still Judgement, but what is a Judgement without a penatly? Would that not be the same as a killer being brought to justice and found guilty but not being punished for it?

If you were caught molesting a 5 year old girl, the penalty is jail time. But would you feel embarrassed? Ashamed? Could you lose your job? Your wife? Custody of your kids? Lose future benefits? Be tortured by your conscience?

The Bible describes this as salvation as if by fire. Judgement will not be easy on anyone. And us Christians will be judged first and more stringently, because we say we know. No evil escapes judgement, and no good goes unrewarded.

Not all types of sin are against the law which means that a lot of people are sinning without any negative consequences in this life. If what you say is true, there are also be no negative consequences in the afterlife. One example of this is homosexuality. So what is the point of classing anything as "sin"?
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,198
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11/17/2016 2:08:33 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
1 John 3:4
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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11/17/2016 2:21:42 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 2:08:33 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
1 John 3:4
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
Whoever said that could see his arse in front him as he ran in circles.
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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11/17/2016 2:26:24 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 2:00:59 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 11/17/2016 1:38:02 PM, ethang5 wrote:

So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins,

No one is absolved of their sins. It would behoove you to read the Bible a little before you post here. But if you're a troll, never mind. Jesus frees us for the penalty of our sins. The Bible says even Christians, and especially Christians, will answer for their sin. Judgement begins at home.

Sorry for crashing in on this particular point but reading your reply i had to wonder, what exactly do you mean with Jesus frees us for the penalty of our sins.

All sin has the same penalty. Death. The real one (the 2nd death). Jesus saves us from that.

You say there is still Judgement, but what is a Judgement without a penatly? Would that not be the same as a killer being brought to justice and found guilty but not being punished for it?

If you were caught molesting a 5 year old girl, the penalty is jail time. But would you feel embarrassed? Ashamed? Could you lose your job? Your wife? Custody of your kids? Lose future benefits? Be tortured by your conscience?

The Bible describes this as salvation as if by fire. Judgement will not be easy on anyone. And us Christians will be judged first and more stringently, because we say we know. No evil escapes judgement, and no good goes unrewarded.

Not all types of sin are against the law which means that a lot of people are sinning without any negative consequences in this life.

Well, I'm not talking about man's law. I'm talking about moral law. And yes, all sin is is morally wrong. You may think there is no negative consequences, but that is sometimes only because your society doesn't let you see it.

Japan has one one of the highest standards of life of any country, and yet they also have one of the highest suicide rates. Do you think an average of 3 months for another episode of kids shooting kids in the US is not negative?

Do you think the terrorist would see any negative consequence to the kids which are being raised as radical jihadists ? Are the negative consequences not there even though he doesn't see it? Your culture is dying, and you don't even know it because it is hard to see the forest when you're surrounded by trees.

If what you say is true, there are also be no negative consequences in the afterlife.

Well, we will all find out. I think I will continue to believe Jesus that sin will bring very negative consequences in the afterlife and avoid it at all costs.

One example of this is homosexuality. So what is the point of classing anything as "sin"?

Sin is what kills us. The Bible says, "Sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death" Sin is simply anything against God. If you let it, it will certainly kill you. If you believe people telling you there is no such thing, by the time you find out they are wrong, it will be too late to change anything.

The sad thing is, there is no reason anyone needs to die. The Bible asks, "Why die?" No one has to.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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11/17/2016 2:56:26 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 2:26:24 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 11/17/2016 2:00:59 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 11/17/2016 1:38:02 PM, ethang5 wrote:

So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins,

No one is absolved of their sins. It would behoove you to read the Bible a little before you post here. But if you're a troll, never mind. Jesus frees us for the penalty of our sins. The Bible says even Christians, and especially Christians, will answer for their sin. Judgement begins at home.

Sorry for crashing in on this particular point but reading your reply i had to wonder, what exactly do you mean with Jesus frees us for the penalty of our sins.

All sin has the same penalty. Death. The real one (the 2nd death). Jesus saves us from that.

You say there is still Judgement, but what is a Judgement without a penatly? Would that not be the same as a killer being brought to justice and found guilty but not being punished for it?

If you were caught molesting a 5 year old girl, the penalty is jail time. But would you feel embarrassed? Ashamed? Could you lose your job? Your wife? Custody of your kids? Lose future benefits? Be tortured by your conscience?

The Bible describes this as salvation as if by fire. Judgement will not be easy on anyone. And us Christians will be judged first and more stringently, because we say we know. No evil escapes judgement, and no good goes unrewarded.

Not all types of sin are against the law which means that a lot of people are sinning without any negative consequences in this life.

Well, I'm not talking about man's law. I'm talking about moral law. And yes, all sin is is morally wrong. You may think there is no negative consequences, but that is sometimes only because your society doesn't let you see it.

Japan has one one of the highest standards of life of any country, and yet they also have one of the highest suicide rates. Do you think an average of 3 months for another episode of kids shooting kids in the US is not negative?

Do you think the terrorist would see any negative consequence to the kids which are being raised as radical jihadists ? Are the negative consequences not there even though he doesn't see it? Your culture is dying, and you don't even know it because it is hard to see the forest when you're surrounded by trees.

If what you say is true, there are also be no negative consequences in the afterlife.

Well, we will all find out. I think I will continue to believe Jesus that sin will bring very negative consequences in the afterlife and avoid it at all costs.

One example of this is homosexuality. So what is the point of classing anything as "sin"?

Sin is what kills us. The Bible says, "Sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death" Sin is simply anything against God. If you let it, it will certainly kill you. If you believe people telling you there is no such thing, by the time you find out they are wrong, it will be too late to change anything.

The sad thing is, there is no reason anyone needs to die. The Bible asks, "Why die?" No one has to.

If there is no greater love.
John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.

Then God betrayed that love.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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11/17/2016 6:34:01 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

you clearly know nothing of the bible....lol
cameron339
Posts: 72
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11/17/2016 8:47:47 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 6:34:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

you clearly know nothing of the bible....lol

Really? Please enlighten me as to how the doctrine of substitutionary atonement is a moral doctrine. This is the problem with Christians, you give them a real world situation that is analogous to a Biblical story and they immediately see the problems with it. But when you apply it to their religious doctrines, they just don't get it. It goes right over their head. Please explain to me how Jesus' "sacrifice" is nothing more than a classic case of scapegoating.

You do know what scapegoating is right? These deluded desert tribes used to send a goat out into the desert and deprive it of food and water. The tribe would cast their sins onto it, and when the goat died, they believed the sins of the tribe would be absolved with the goats' death/sacrifice. Where have we heard that story before? Oh yeah, we have heard that before in the case of Jesus "dying for our sins". There is no difference. If you have not studied history and what ancient desert tribes used to believe and how Jesus is nothing more than a scapegoat. Then you don't know what the hell you are talking about. I know, I know, you're going to try and tell me how the story of Jesus is unique and nothing else mirrors it.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,198
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11/17/2016 8:53:45 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 8:47:47 PM, cameron339 wrote:
At 11/17/2016 6:34:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

you clearly know nothing of the bible....lol

Really? Please enlighten me as to how the doctrine of substitutionary atonement is a moral doctrine. This is the problem with Christians, you give them a real world situation that is analogous to a Biblical story and they immediately see the problems with it. But when you apply it to their religious doctrines, they just don't get it. It goes right over their head. Please explain to me how Jesus' "sacrifice" is nothing more than a classic case of scapegoating.

You do know what scapegoating is right? These deluded desert tribes used to send a goat out into the desert and deprive it of food and water. The tribe would cast their sins onto it, and when the goat died, they believed the sins of the tribe would be absolved with the goats' death/sacrifice. Where have we heard that story before? Oh yeah, we have heard that before in the case of Jesus "dying for our sins". There is no difference. If you have not studied history and what ancient desert tribes used to believe and how Jesus is nothing more than a scapegoat. Then you don't know what the hell you are talking about. I know, I know, you're going to try and tell me how the story of Jesus is unique and nothing else mirrors it.

Well, there is the part that Jesus did it voluntarily, willingly, knew it was coming and did nothing. Could have avoided it by several means, but chose not to.
Unlike an actual scapegoat.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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11/17/2016 8:59:51 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 6:34:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

you clearly know nothing of the bible....lol

Actually Christians are very divided over the question: Who did Jesus die for? Did Jesus die for all, some or none?
https://carm.org...

The Romans who actually crucified Jesus believed Jesus was a lunatic not God and that Jesus had a large following which could destabilize the fragile peace and therefore had to be put away.
So Jesus's death was more political than religious. Jesus was put to death to save the Romans from dealing with a revolt.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,198
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11/17/2016 9:13:34 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 8:59:51 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 11/17/2016 6:34:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

you clearly know nothing of the bible....lol

Actually Christians are very divided over the question: Who did Jesus die for? Did Jesus die for all, some or none?
https://carm.org...

The Romans who actually crucified Jesus believed Jesus was a lunatic not God and that Jesus had a large following which could destabilize the fragile peace and therefore had to be put away.
So Jesus's death was more political than religious. Jesus was put to death to save the Romans from dealing with a revolt.

The Pharisees convinced the Romans this is what they were doing, and Judas hoped there was truth to this, but as far as Jesus was concerned, it was just part of the Father's plan.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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11/17/2016 9:32:23 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 9:13:34 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 11/17/2016 8:59:51 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 11/17/2016 6:34:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

you clearly know nothing of the bible....lol

Actually Christians are very divided over the question: Who did Jesus die for? Did Jesus die for all, some or none?
https://carm.org...

The Romans who actually crucified Jesus believed Jesus was a lunatic not God and that Jesus had a large following which could destabilize the fragile peace and therefore had to be put away.
So Jesus's death was more political than religious. Jesus was put to death to save the Romans from dealing with a revolt.

The Pharisees convinced the Romans this is what they were doing, and Judas hoped there was truth to this, but as far as Jesus was concerned, it was just part of the Father's plan.

It is obvious the Romans had their own plan. They crucified Jesus, destroyed the temple slaughtered the children of Israel and went on to build the Church of Rome called the Roman Catholic Church with the Pope as its leader.
Today the Pope declared Jesus was a failure of the cross. The Popevreminded Christians they have been following the loser Jesus who humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross.

"Ours is to plant the seeds. God sees to the fruits of our labors. And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and not produce fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus Christ and his life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross."
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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11/17/2016 9:33:18 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 8:59:51 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 11/17/2016 6:34:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

you clearly know nothing of the bible....lol

Actually Christians are very divided over the question: Who did Jesus die for? Did Jesus die for all, some or none?
https://carm.org...

The Romans who actually crucified Jesus believed Jesus was a lunatic not God and that Jesus had a large following which could destabilize the fragile peace and therefore had to be put away.
So Jesus's death was more political than religious. Jesus was put to death to save the Romans from dealing with a revolt.

this is nearly as pathetic as jesus the alcoholic... you are just a loony...,
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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11/17/2016 9:38:11 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 8:47:47 PM, cameron339 wrote:
At 11/17/2016 6:34:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

you clearly know nothing of the bible....lol

Really? Please enlighten me as to how the doctrine of substitutionary atonement is a moral doctrine. This is the problem with Christians, you give them a real world situation that is analogous to a Biblical story and they immediately see the problems with it. But when you apply it to their religious doctrines, they just don't get it. It goes right over their head. Please explain to me how Jesus' "sacrifice" is nothing more than a classic case of scapegoating.

You do know what scapegoating is right? These deluded desert tribes used to send a goat out into the desert and deprive it of food and water. The tribe would cast their sins onto it, and when the goat died, they believed the sins of the tribe would be absolved with the goats' death/sacrifice. Where have we heard that story before? Oh yeah, we have heard that before in the case of Jesus "dying for our sins". There is no difference. If you have not studied history and what ancient desert tribes used to believe and how Jesus is nothing more than a scapegoat. Then you don't know what the hell you are talking about. I know, I know, you're going to try and tell me how the story of Jesus is unique and nothing else mirrors it.

this is simple, a principle of sacrifice was set, the idea being that animal sacrifice would pay for the sins of the person who offered the animal, the animal was checked so it was without spot or blemish, notice the person who brought the animal was not checked, the sins of the person passed on to the animal, the innocence of the animal passed to the person...

Jesus became the passover lamb, he lived a perfect and blameless life, without blemish, he kept the law, the law that leads to sin and death, which took that away sin from the people who trusted on him, he became the once for ever sacrifice, it would never have to be repeated again..

there you go biblical reasons just how it was meant to be...
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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11/17/2016 9:47:14 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 9:33:18 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/17/2016 8:59:51 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 11/17/2016 6:34:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

you clearly know nothing of the bible....lol

Actually Christians are very divided over the question: Who did Jesus die for? Did Jesus die for all, some or none?
https://carm.org...

The Romans who actually crucified Jesus believed Jesus was a lunatic not God and that Jesus had a large following which could destabilize the fragile peace and therefore had to be put away.
So Jesus's death was more political than religious. Jesus was put to death to save the Romans from dealing with a revolt.

this is nearly as pathetic as jesus the alcoholic... you are just a loony...,

It was 40 years after they crucified Jesus that a revolt did occur. But the Romans having anticipated it was prepared and brutally put the Jewish rebellion down. Having destroyed the temple, Jerusalem and slaughtered the children of Israel they went on to build the church of Rome called the Roman Catholic Church. They did all this without any miracles.
Jesus wasted miracles turning water into wine which only fed his alcoholic addiction. Today we have the Alcohol Anonymous trying to undo everything that Jesus did with his miracles turning his followers into alcoholics. by giving them alcohol made from water.
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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11/17/2016 9:54:03 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 9:47:14 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 11/17/2016 9:33:18 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/17/2016 8:59:51 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 11/17/2016 6:34:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

you clearly know nothing of the bible....lol

Actually Christians are very divided over the question: Who did Jesus die for? Did Jesus die for all, some or none?
https://carm.org...

The Romans who actually crucified Jesus believed Jesus was a lunatic not God and that Jesus had a large following which could destabilize the fragile peace and therefore had to be put away.
So Jesus's death was more political than religious. Jesus was put to death to save the Romans from dealing with a revolt.

this is nearly as pathetic as jesus the alcoholic... you are just a loony...,

It was 40 years after they crucified Jesus that a revolt did occur. But the Romans having anticipated it was prepared and brutally put the Jewish rebellion down. Having destroyed the temple, Jerusalem and slaughtered the children of Israel they went on to build the church of Rome called the Roman Catholic Church. They did all this without any miracles.
Jesus wasted miracles turning water into wine which only fed his alcoholic addiction. Today we have the Alcohol Anonymous trying to undo everything that Jesus did with his miracles turning his followers into alcoholics. by giving them alcohol made from water.

Jesus wasted nothing, Christianity spread across the world, it was a complete success...
Harikrish
Posts: 11,010
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11/17/2016 10:06:27 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 9:54:03 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/17/2016 9:47:14 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 11/17/2016 9:33:18 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/17/2016 8:59:51 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 11/17/2016 6:34:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

you clearly know nothing of the bible....lol

Actually Christians are very divided over the question: Who did Jesus die for? Did Jesus die for all, some or none?
https://carm.org...

The Romans who actually crucified Jesus believed Jesus was a lunatic not God and that Jesus had a large following which could destabilize the fragile peace and therefore had to be put away.
So Jesus's death was more political than religious. Jesus was put to death to save the Romans from dealing with a revolt.

this is nearly as pathetic as jesus the alcoholic... you are just a loony...,

It was 40 years after they crucified Jesus that a revolt did occur. But the Romans having anticipated it was prepared and brutally put the Jewish rebellion down. Having destroyed the temple, Jerusalem and slaughtered the children of Israel they went on to build the church of Rome called the Roman Catholic Church. They did all this without any miracles.
Jesus wasted miracles turning water into wine which only fed his alcoholic addiction. Today we have the Alcohol Anonymous trying to undo everything that Jesus did with his miracles turning his followers into alcoholics. by giving them alcohol made from water.

Jesus wasted nothing, Christianity spread across the world, it was a complete success...

The Roman Catholic Church spread their Christian doctrine which claimed the crucifixion of Jesus by the Romans saved the world.
The Jews would have been given the credit for saving the world had they been given the opportunity to stone Jesus to death for blasphemy. But the Romans denied them that right.
Jesus too believed the world would be saved if he was put to death. So he too owes it to the Romans for saving the world.
cameron339
Posts: 72
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11/17/2016 10:53:06 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 9:38:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/17/2016 8:47:47 PM, cameron339 wrote:
At 11/17/2016 6:34:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

you clearly know nothing of the bible....lol

Really? Please enlighten me as to how the doctrine of substitutionary atonement is a moral doctrine. This is the problem with Christians, you give them a real world situation that is analogous to a Biblical story and they immediately see the problems with it. But when you apply it to their religious doctrines, they just don't get it. It goes right over their head. Please explain to me how Jesus' "sacrifice" is nothing more than a classic case of scapegoating.

You do know what scapegoating is right? These deluded desert tribes used to send a goat out into the desert and deprive it of food and water. The tribe would cast their sins onto it, and when the goat died, they believed the sins of the tribe would be absolved with the goats' death/sacrifice. Where have we heard that story before? Oh yeah, we have heard that before in the case of Jesus "dying for our sins". There is no difference. If you have not studied history and what ancient desert tribes used to believe and how Jesus is nothing more than a scapegoat. Then you don't know what the hell you are talking about. I know, I know, you're going to try and tell me how the story of Jesus is unique and nothing else mirrors it.

this is simple, a principle of sacrifice was set, the idea being that animal sacrifice would pay for the sins of the person who offered the animal, the animal was checked so it was without spot or blemish, notice the person who brought the animal was not checked, the sins of the person passed on to the animal, the innocence of the animal passed to the person...

Jesus became the passover lamb, he lived a perfect and blameless life, without blemish, he kept the law, the law that leads to sin and death, which took that away sin from the people who trusted on him, he became the once for ever sacrifice, it would never have to be repeated again..

there you go biblical reasons just how it was meant to be...

Perfect life according to who? There were many things Jesus said that would hardly be considered perfect, moral, altruistic or compassionate. I mean the simple notion of him coming to earth on a suicide mission to sacrifice himself to himself to serve as a loophole for a problem he created in the first place (Garden of eden). That seems pretty effedup. Or the idea that he came to earth to abolish personal responsibility and accountability. That seems pretty effedup as well. I know, I know you're going to tell me that I'm not interpreting the scriptures correctly. That is merely your opinion, when we're talking about mythology. Yes, I said it. Sorry, but you can't verify that any of this stuff happened. It's just a long cobbled together story that you somehow are infatuated with.
cameron339
Posts: 72
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11/17/2016 10:57:51 PM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
Jesus wasted nothing, Christianity spread across the world, it was a complete success...

Yes, unfortunately this blood worship death cult created by desert dwelling screw heads spread across the world. Sweeping up massive amounts of gullible people along the way.
GrimlyF
Posts: 99
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11/18/2016 1:32:03 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
No Jesus's death was not a sacrifice.It was culpable homicide by God."Let this cup pass me by" said Jesus. An obvious plea for mercy refused by His Father who forced Him, against His will, to endure the torture and death God had ordained for Him.In everything God does he demands blood. Even from His own Son.
See the happy moron: he doesn't give a damn:I wish I were a moron:My God! perhaps I am!. Anonymous.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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11/18/2016 3:47:52 AM
Posted: 3 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 9:38:11 PM, graceofgod wrote:
there you go biblical reasons just how it was meant to be...
1. The biblical jebus is a 100% Historical Myth!

2. The bible itself refutes the claim any one else can sacrifice itself for others -

Deut. 24:16, Ezek. 18:20 & Jer. 31:30
graceofgod
Posts: 5,097
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11/18/2016 5:47:54 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/17/2016 10:06:27 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 11/17/2016 9:54:03 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/17/2016 9:47:14 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 11/17/2016 9:33:18 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/17/2016 8:59:51 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 11/17/2016 6:34:01 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 11/16/2016 7:49:35 PM, cameron339 wrote:
Theists, let me present you with an anology for "Jesus' crucifixion/sacrifice". Lets say we were in a court of law and a man is being sentenced to 3 life sentences for murdering 3 people. I stand up and say to the judge, "I want to serve that man's 3 life sentences for him." (Not that we allow that in a court of law to begin with) You would instantly recognize this as being a perversion of justice. Why? Because it violates the foundation of morality and ethics which is personal responsibility and accountability. So if you're a Christian and believe that a dead Jewish man can somehow absolve you of your actions/sins, you don't understand the first thing about morality. Neither does Jesus.

you clearly know nothing of the bible....lol

Actually Christians are very divided over the question: Who did Jesus die for? Did Jesus die for all, some or none?
https://carm.org...

The Romans who actually crucified Jesus believed Jesus was a lunatic not God and that Jesus had a large following which could destabilize the fragile peace and therefore had to be put away.
So Jesus's death was more political than religious. Jesus was put to death to save the Romans from dealing with a revolt.

this is nearly as pathetic as jesus the alcoholic... you are just a loony...,

It was 40 years after they crucified Jesus that a revolt did occur. But the Romans having anticipated it was prepared and brutally put the Jewish rebellion down. Having destroyed the temple, Jerusalem and slaughtered the children of Israel they went on to build the church of Rome called the Roman Catholic Church. They did all this without any miracles.
Jesus wasted miracles turning water into wine which only fed his alcoholic addiction. Today we have the Alcohol Anonymous trying to undo everything that Jesus did with his miracles turning his followers into alcoholics. by giving them alcohol made from water.

Jesus wasted nothing, Christianity spread across the world, it was a complete success...

The Roman Catholic Church spread their Christian doctrine which claimed the crucifixion of Jesus by the Romans saved the world.
The Jews would have been given the credit for saving the world had they been given the opportunity to stone Jesus to death for blasphemy. But the Romans denied them that right.
Jesus too believed the world would be saved if he was put to death. So he too owes it to the Romans for saving the world.

No, his disciples and many others spread the truth of Jesus...

even unto death... which showed how they believed...