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Evil can't exist in heaven.

bulproof
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11/18/2016 1:35:31 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
Evil can only exist as a consequence of free will, or perhaps as a result of satan.
Allegedly satan cannot exist in heaven so he is ruled out by elimination.
Which leaves us with free will, the free will who's only purpose is to choose to believe in and love god in order that you are rewarded by a place in heaven.
If you use your free will to choose to worship your god and be rewarded by going to heaven you have chosen to rescind your god given free will, because as soon as you get to heaven you no longer have free will and you become the automaton your god always wanted.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
rileswilder
Posts: 5
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11/19/2016 4:48:07 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/18/2016 1:35:31 PM, bulproof wrote:
Evil can only exist as a consequence of free will, or perhaps as a result of satan.
Allegedly satan cannot exist in heaven so he is ruled out by elimination.
Which leaves us with free will, the free will who's only purpose is to choose to believe in and love god in order that you are rewarded by a place in heaven.
If you use your free will to choose to worship your god and be rewarded by going to heaven you have chosen to rescind your god given free will, because as soon as you get to heaven you no longer have free will and you become the automaton your god always wanted.

It seems you've set up an argument relying on evil is a consequence of free will, evil doesn't exist in heaven, therefore free will doesn't exist in heaven. But you qualified the first premise by saying "or as a result of Satan." If evil is plausibly an exclusive consequence of Satan, free will isn't necessarily to blame. Also, it doesn't follow that evil comes from free will, therefore all consequences of free will are evil. Maybe we need to define evil? Because if we're talking about harming other people for the sheer purpose of doing harm and/or benefiting oneself without regard to who it hurts, you could be an "automaton" and do harm by following evil orders.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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11/19/2016 6:42:58 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/19/2016 4:48:07 AM, rileswilder wrote:
At 11/18/2016 1:35:31 PM, bulproof wrote:
Evil can only exist as a consequence of free will, or perhaps as a result of satan.
Allegedly satan cannot exist in heaven so he is ruled out by elimination.
Which leaves us with free will, the free will who's only purpose is to choose to believe in and love god in order that you are rewarded by a place in heaven.
If you use your free will to choose to worship your god and be rewarded by going to heaven you have chosen to rescind your god given free will, because as soon as you get to heaven you no longer have free will and you become the automaton your god always wanted.

It seems you've set up an argument relying on evil is a consequence of free will,
Not my argument, it's an argument propounded by godists ad nauseam.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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11/22/2016 7:09:33 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/18/2016 1:35:31 PM, bulproof wrote:
Evil can only exist as a consequence of free will, or perhaps as a result of satan.
Allegedly satan cannot exist in heaven so he is ruled out by elimination.

If evil cannot exist in heaven, how did any angels sin against God in the first place? They were apparently all in heaven before they did anything evil and got thrown out of heaven. Since they did evil in heaven, evil did exist in heaven.
Rev 12 also mentions war in heaven. Is war evil or a result of evil? If evil did not exist exist in heaven, what caused the war/conflict?

Which leaves us with free will, the free will who's only purpose is to choose to believe in and love god in order that you are rewarded by a place in heaven.

What makes you think that is the only purpose of free will?
Why do you think that a place in heaven is some kind of reward?

If you use your free will to choose to worship your god and be rewarded by going to heaven you have chosen to rescind your god given free will, because as soon as you get to heaven you no longer have free will and you become the automaton your god always wanted.

That makes no sense at all. People or spirits or angels don't become automatons or rescind free will or choices to believe in or worship anything at all. If they did, then no angels would have been capable of making any choices to do anything wrong in the first place in order to be thrown out of heaven.

Evil in the story must have existed before anyone in the story did anything evil since God knew about good and evil before he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Where did the knowledge of good and evil come from if not from the mind of God?

If God has the knowledge of evil and God lives in heaven, then evil exists in heaven as much as it exists on Earth in humans who know about evil.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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11/22/2016 7:36:16 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/22/2016 7:09:33 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/18/2016 1:35:31 PM, bulproof wrote:
Evil can only exist as a consequence of free will, or perhaps as a result of satan.
Allegedly satan cannot exist in heaven so he is ruled out by elimination.

If evil cannot exist in heaven, how did any angels sin against God in the first place? They were apparently all in heaven before they did anything evil and got thrown out of heaven. Since they did evil in heaven, evil did exist in heaven.
Rev 12 also mentions war in heaven. Is war evil or a result of evil? If evil did not exist exist in heaven, what caused the war/conflict?
Yes these contradictions are what our godists believe they just lack the intestinal fortitude to confront them.

Which leaves us with free will, the free will who's only purpose is to choose to believe in and love god in order that you are rewarded by a place in heaven.

What makes you think that is the only purpose of free will?
Why do you think that a place in heaven is some kind of reward?
These are the claims of godists, they are not my claims. I am in fact questioning godists regarding these contradictory claims. According to godists you can use your free will to choose god but if you don't you will be tortured by said god for eternity. FREE?


If you use your free will to choose to worship your god and be rewarded by going to heaven you have chosen to rescind your god given free will, because as soon as you get to heaven you no longer have free will and you become the automaton your god always wanted.

That makes no sense at all. People or spirits or angels don't become automatons or rescind free will or choices to believe in or worship anything at all.
If as the godists claim evil is a result of free will and there can be no evil in heaven as they claim then there can be no free will and automatons are the only inhabitants of heaven.
If they did, then no angels would have been capable of making any choices to do anything wrong in the first place in order to be thrown out of heaven.
Will you just look at that glaring contradiction that the godists can't bring themselves to confront.

Evil in the story must have existed before anyone in the story did anything evil since God knew about good and evil before he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Where did the knowledge of good and evil come from if not from the mind of God?
Yes I made this very point in an earlier thread but the godists couldn't bring themselves to even enter the discussion.

If God has the knowledge of evil and God lives in heaven, then evil exists in heaven as much as it exists on Earth in humans who know about evil.
Hooray, you win the award for disclosing just a few of the ridiculous contradictions that the godists claim are non existent.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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11/22/2016 8:03:07 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/22/2016 7:36:16 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 11/22/2016 7:09:33 AM, Skyangel wrote:

If evil cannot exist in heaven, how did any angels sin against God in the first place? They were apparently all in heaven before they did anything evil and got thrown out of heaven. Since they did evil in heaven, evil did exist in heaven.
Rev 12 also mentions war in heaven. Is war evil or a result of evil? If evil did not exist exist in heaven, what caused the war/conflict?
Yes these contradictions are what our godists believe they just lack the intestinal fortitude to confront them.

I think they are just too lazy to think about them logically. They prefer to be sheep who follow whatever shepherd is leading them to the slaughter.

Which leaves us with free will, the free will who's only purpose is to choose to believe in and love god in order that you are rewarded by a place in heaven.

What makes you think that is the only purpose of free will?
Why do you think that a place in heaven is some kind of reward?
These are the claims of godists, they are not my claims. I am in fact questioning godists regarding these contradictory claims. According to godists you can use your free will to choose god but if you don't you will be tortured by said god for eternity. FREE?

I think the 'godists' have been led astray. In the story, Adam and Eve were never given a choice to follow God or not. They were given a choice to partake of knowledge or not. They chose to know the same as what God knew. Apparently God preferred they remain ignorant. Maybe that is why followers of God remain so ignorant?

If you use your free will to choose to worship your god and be rewarded by going to heaven you have chosen to rescind your god given free will, because as soon as you get to heaven you no longer have free will and you become the automaton your god always wanted.

That makes no sense at all. People or spirits or angels don't become automatons or rescind free will or choices to believe in or worship anything at all.
If as the godists claim evil is a result of free will and there can be no evil in heaven as they claim then there can be no free will and automatons are the only inhabitants of heaven.

Those godists obviously haven't thought it through logically. If there was no free will or evil in heaven, how did any angels in the story make the choice to do anything evil? They would have been automatons from the get go and would have had no knowledge of evil or how to do anything wrong in the first place.

If they did, then no angels would have been capable of making any choices to do anything wrong in the first place in order to be thrown out of heaven.
Will you just look at that glaring contradiction that the godists can't bring themselves to confront.

Hopefully a few of them will be brave and smart enough to confront it once they read this conversation.

Evil in the story must have existed before anyone in the story did anything evil since God knew about good and evil before he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Where did the knowledge of good and evil come from if not from the mind of God?
Yes I made this very point in an earlier thread but the godists couldn't bring themselves to even enter the discussion.

As I said, they prefer to be sheep and follower their leaders rather than think for themselves. They like to have someone else do their thinking for them.
They are childish and insecure and need to be told what to do and how to think.

If God has the knowledge of evil and God lives in heaven, then evil exists in heaven as much as it exists on Earth in humans who know about evil.
Hooray, you win the award for disclosing just a few of the ridiculous contradictions that the godists claim are non existent.

They are deliberately blind to any contradictions. They see it as a threat to their faith instead of as a challenge to broaden their horizons.
They don't seem to want to understand that good and evil are simply an illusion created by human perception and beliefs about what is moral and what is not.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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11/22/2016 8:19:11 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/22/2016 8:03:07 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/22/2016 7:36:16 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 11/22/2016 7:09:33 AM, Skyangel wrote:

If evil cannot exist in heaven, how did any angels sin against God in the first place? They were apparently all in heaven before they did anything evil and got thrown out of heaven. Since they did evil in heaven, evil did exist in heaven.
Rev 12 also mentions war in heaven. Is war evil or a result of evil? If evil did not exist exist in heaven, what caused the war/conflict?
Yes these contradictions are what our godists believe they just lack the intestinal fortitude to confront them.

I think they are just too lazy to think about them logically. They prefer to be sheep who follow whatever shepherd is leading them to the slaughter.

Which leaves us with free will, the free will who's only purpose is to choose to believe in and love god in order that you are rewarded by a place in heaven.

What makes you think that is the only purpose of free will?
Why do you think that a place in heaven is some kind of reward?
These are the claims of godists, they are not my claims. I am in fact questioning godists regarding these contradictory claims. According to godists you can use your free will to choose god but if you don't you will be tortured by said god for eternity. FREE?

I think the 'godists' have been led astray. In the story, Adam and Eve were never given a choice to follow God or not. They were given a choice to partake of knowledge or not. They chose to know the same as what God knew. Apparently God preferred they remain ignorant. Maybe that is why followers of God remain so ignorant?


If you use your free will to choose to worship your god and be rewarded by going to heaven you have chosen to rescind your god given free will, because as soon as you get to heaven you no longer have free will and you become the automaton your god always wanted.

That makes no sense at all. People or spirits or angels don't become automatons or rescind free will or choices to believe in or worship anything at all.
If as the godists claim evil is a result of free will and there can be no evil in heaven as they claim then there can be no free will and automatons are the only inhabitants of heaven.

Those godists obviously haven't thought it through logically. If there was no free will or evil in heaven, how did any angels in the story make the choice to do anything evil? They would have been automatons from the get go and would have had no knowledge of evil or how to do anything wrong in the first place.


If they did, then no angels would have been capable of making any choices to do anything wrong in the first place in order to be thrown out of heaven.
Will you just look at that glaring contradiction that the godists can't bring themselves to confront.

Hopefully a few of them will be brave and smart enough to confront it once they read this conversation.

Evil in the story must have existed before anyone in the story did anything evil since God knew about good and evil before he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Where did the knowledge of good and evil come from if not from the mind of God?
Yes I made this very point in an earlier thread but the godists couldn't bring themselves to even enter the discussion.

As I said, they prefer to be sheep and follower their leaders rather than think for themselves. They like to have someone else do their thinking for them.
They are childish and insecure and need to be told what to do and how to think.

If God has the knowledge of evil and God lives in heaven, then evil exists in heaven as much as it exists on Earth in humans who know about evil.
Hooray, you win the award for disclosing just a few of the ridiculous contradictions that the godists claim are non existent.

They are deliberately blind to any contradictions. They see it as a threat to their faith instead of as a challenge to broaden their horizons.
They don't seem to want to understand that good and evil are simply an illusion created by human perception and beliefs about what is moral and what is not.
You have written nothing here, absolutely nothing that I can disagree with.
HUZZAH.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin