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What I don't get about designed-for-life.

YoshiBoy13
Posts: 96
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11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.
- Just because you're narrow-minded doesn't mean you're always right.
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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11/28/2016 9:31:36 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us.

That is true, but it doesn"t mean that universes can come to exist only by chance.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,053
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11/28/2016 10:19:18 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
We are in 'Anthropic principle' territory here.

The problem is that science doesn't like long odds. As you point out, there is a 1 in 2048 chance of us being here to observe anything. While those odds aren't too bad, the way scientists are trained is to prefer a model that gives shorter odds, particularly as the real odds are probably a lot worse that 1 in 2048.

That sort of thinking stems from the 'Copernican Principle'. The CP is all about thinking that there is nothing special about us, or about where we are in space ot when we are in time. In pre-Copernican times the earth and mankind were the centre of the unoverse and everything revolved around the earth and humans. The Copernican principle is all about how man is ordinary animal living on an ordinary planet orbiting an ordinary star in an ordinary galaxy. It goes across the grain to need un-ordinary odds to make it all work.

So what science is looking for is a model that get the odds down to certainty. One way is to have lots of different universes, so even if the odds of life in any one universe are bad, life somewhere is guaranteed. That is why 'multiverse' theories are popular.

To summarise, it's almost an aesthetic issue rather than a purely logical one.
illegalcombat
Posts: 632
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11/28/2016 10:33:57 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

What you have stumbled upon is a "bias" in the data, or to be more technical, observer selection bias.

To be it another way, an observer will only exist in a universe/on a planet compatible with it's own existence, cause if it wasn't, it wouldn't exist there in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org...
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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11/28/2016 11:11:43 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.
Multiverse is completely unnecessary, all that is needed is a universe in which you exist and can ask questions from an erroneous position.
Puddle meet hole, ask from a valid position.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,147
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11/28/2016 2:00:24 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

When I watch a good movie, sometimes I find myself thinking, what are the odds? Then I justify it by noting they wouldn't revolve a story line around the countless people who had potential but choked on their breakfast, or got stopped in the planning stages, or made it half way through and failed brutally. Although the odds are against everyone, someone could live an event worth making a movie about, and that someone is the person we talk about.

I once flipped a penny heads 43 times in a row. The odds are against it, but it happened, and it only took one coin flipping session to find out. People win the lottery with one ticket. The odds of you being you are unfathomable in my mind, but here we are talking. Who cares about all of what didn't happen? You did. The probability is 100% once you find out. There isn't another way when you can only go one way, and looking back, that's how everything happened. You can say, "what if", but "what if" isn't shown to exist. There is only what happened.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
MasonicSlayer
Posts: 2,373
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11/28/2016 2:40:45 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

I like the multiverse theory. It helps bring an understanding to freewill and fate. My fate is destined to become the products of my experiences in this world. Each action in this world resulting in the product of its reaction. These reactions now taking its new course to new realities. The sum total of all realities becomes the lessons uploaded to my higher self. The OP fails in making the assumption that other universes are lifeless. If there are other universes they would have been somewhat similar to ours. They would have had a begining thus an end, therein a purpose for its creation becomes its intelligent initiation. We use computers to play out every possible reaction to situations. The movie War Games can help illustrate how the computer creates every simulation possible to an event to determine the outcome of the event by calculating the total results. The final result is unknown until all scenarios are played out. Therefore I suggest that freewill and fate and the multiverse, as better seen a multiple simulations of choices to different destinies to the final frontier of an ultimate conclusion, becomes the greatest horizon to see an answer to the questions of our lives.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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11/28/2016 2:44:58 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/28/2016 2:40:45 PM, MasonicSlayer wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

I like the multiverse theory. It helps bring an understanding to freewill and fate.
You mean it pacifies your fears.
MasonicSlayer
Posts: 2,373
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11/28/2016 3:17:44 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/28/2016 2:44:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 11/28/2016 2:40:45 PM, MasonicSlayer wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

I like the multiverse theory. It helps bring an understanding to freewill and fate.
You mean it pacifies your fears.

The only things we fear are the things we cannot understand. We then protect ourselves from the things we cannot understand. We then impinge a mindset within the confines of misdefining the reality of things. The farther we go down the realities of false notions, the farther from the truth, the intrinsic situations to these then becomes impossible to see. But what you see becomes the perception of truths to you. If you choose to ignore all that I can say, and say to this one sentence what you wish to hear, you will then hear what is within yourself. We tend to see in others as the things we see within ourselves. We now judge others as we have judged ourselves.
KwLm
Posts: 503
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11/28/2016 3:30:01 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/28/2016 3:17:44 PM, MasonicSlayer wrote:
At 11/28/2016 2:44:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 11/28/2016 2:40:45 PM, MasonicSlayer wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

I like the multiverse theory. It helps bring an understanding to freewill and fate.
You mean it pacifies your fears.

The only things we fear are the things we cannot understand. We then protect ourselves from the things we cannot understand. We then impinge a mindset within the confines of misdefining the reality of things. The farther we go down the realities of false notions, the farther from the truth, the intrinsic situations to these then becomes impossible to see. But what you see becomes the perception of truths to you. If you choose to ignore all that I can say, and say to this one sentence what you wish to hear, you will then hear what is within yourself. We tend to see in others as the things we see within ourselves. We now judge others as we have judged ourselves.

Whose the we in your analogy?
MasonicSlayer
Posts: 2,373
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11/28/2016 3:54:32 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/28/2016 3:30:01 PM, KwLm wrote:
At 11/28/2016 3:17:44 PM, MasonicSlayer wrote:
At 11/28/2016 2:44:58 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 11/28/2016 2:40:45 PM, MasonicSlayer wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

I like the multiverse theory. It helps bring an understanding to freewill and fate.
You mean it pacifies your fears.

The only things we fear are the things we cannot understand. We then protect ourselves from the things we cannot understand. We then impinge a mindset within the confines of misdefining the reality of things. The farther we go down the realities of false notions, the farther from the truth, the intrinsic situations to these then becomes impossible to see. But what you see becomes the perception of truths to you. If you choose to ignore all that I can say, and say to this one sentence what you wish to hear, you will then hear what is within yourself. We tend to see in others as the things we see within ourselves. We now judge others as we have judged ourselves.

Whose the we in your analogy?

The general population. Basically most of humanity. Smart people learn from their mistakes. The wise ones learn from the mistakes of others. I like to think I'm smart. I make every mistake that can be made, and then I learn from them. I hope to someday become wise enough to stop making mistakes.
dsjpk5
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11/29/2016 2:28:38 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/28/2016 11:11:43 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.
Multiverse is completely unnecessary, all that is needed is a universe in which you exist and can ask questions from an erroneous position.

How is it an erroneous position?

Puddle meet hole, ask from a valid position.

Incoherent sentence.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
dsjpk5
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11/29/2016 2:37:22 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?

Yes.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
dee-em
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11/29/2016 6:01:00 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/29/2016 2:37:22 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?

Yes.

Lol. They're both equal at zero.
dsjpk5
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11/29/2016 10:34:40 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/29/2016 6:01:00 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 2:37:22 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?

Yes.

Lol. They're both equal at zero.

You know that's not true. You may not accept the evidence for a creator god, but it exists
, unlike the postulations of a multiverse.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
dee-em
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11/29/2016 12:15:56 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/29/2016 10:34:40 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 6:01:00 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 2:37:22 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?

Yes.

Lol. They're both equal at zero.

You know that's not true. You may not accept the evidence for a creator god, but it exists
, unlike the postulations of a multiverse.

On the contrary it is blindingly obvious that there is no evidence which can be called evidence for the former despite your empty claims. If there were such evidence no-one would ever be talking about faith. Faith-based belief would only be a curiosity rather than the only known path to theism.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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11/29/2016 1:13:14 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/29/2016 10:34:40 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
You may not accept the evidence for a creator god, but it exists
No such evidence has ever been presented. But hey do it now.
dsjpk5
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12/2/2016 11:44:01 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/29/2016 12:15:56 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 10:34:40 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 6:01:00 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 2:37:22 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?

Yes.

Lol. They're both equal at zero.

You know that's not true. You may not accept the evidence for a creator god, but it exists
, unlike the postulations of a multiverse.

On the contrary it is blindingly obvious that there is no evidence which can be called evidence for the former despite your empty claims. If there were such evidence no-one would ever be talking about faith. Faith-based belief would only be a curiosity rather than the only known path to theism.

Considering I'm using the word "evidence" and not "proof", it's blindingly obvious that your comments above are false.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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12/2/2016 11:50:03 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 12/2/2016 11:44:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 12:15:56 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 10:34:40 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 6:01:00 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 2:37:22 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?

Yes.

Lol. They're both equal at zero.

You know that's not true. You may not accept the evidence for a creator god, but it exists
, unlike the postulations of a multiverse.

On the contrary it is blindingly obvious that there is no evidence which can be called evidence for the former despite your empty claims. If there were such evidence no-one would ever be talking about faith. Faith-based belief would only be a curiosity rather than the only known path to theism.

Considering I'm using the word "evidence" and not "proof", it's blindingly obvious that your comments above are false.

Don't be silly. There are no proofs outside of mathematics. I'm talking about evidence too. Evidence is the antithesis of faith. You guys wouldn't require faith if you had evidence.
dsjpk5
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12/2/2016 4:04:27 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 12/2/2016 11:50:03 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/2/2016 11:44:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 12:15:56 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 10:34:40 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 6:01:00 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 2:37:22 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?

Yes.

Lol. They're both equal at zero.

You know that's not true. You may not accept the evidence for a creator god, but it exists
, unlike the postulations of a multiverse.

On the contrary it is blindingly obvious that there is no evidence which can be called evidence for the former despite your empty claims. If there were such evidence no-one would ever be talking about faith. Faith-based belief would only be a curiosity rather than the only known path to theism.

Considering I'm using the word "evidence" and not "proof", it's blindingly obvious that your comments above are false.

Don't be silly. There are no proofs outside of mathematics. I'm talking about evidence too. Evidence is the antithesis of faith. You guys wouldn't require faith if you had evidence.

You seem to have faith confused with blind faith. I'm not talking about this. I'm referring to faith formed by evidence and reason.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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12/2/2016 4:12:14 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 12/2/2016 4:04:27 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 12/2/2016 11:50:03 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/2/2016 11:44:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 12:15:56 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 10:34:40 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 6:01:00 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 2:37:22 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?

Yes.

Lol. They're both equal at zero.

You know that's not true. You may not accept the evidence for a creator god, but it exists
, unlike the postulations of a multiverse.

On the contrary it is blindingly obvious that there is no evidence which can be called evidence for the former despite your empty claims. If there were such evidence no-one would ever be talking about faith. Faith-based belief would only be a curiosity rather than the only known path to theism.

Considering I'm using the word "evidence" and not "proof", it's blindingly obvious that your comments above are false.

Don't be silly. There are no proofs outside of mathematics. I'm talking about evidence too. Evidence is the antithesis of faith. You guys wouldn't require faith if you had evidence.

You seem to have faith confused with blind faith. I'm not talking about this. I'm referring to faith formed by evidence and reason.
We keep asking for this evidence and you keep referring to faith, btw faith is blind by it's very definition.
Got some evidence yet?
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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12/2/2016 5:01:21 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 12/2/2016 4:12:14 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/2/2016 4:04:27 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 12/2/2016 11:50:03 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/2/2016 11:44:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 12:15:56 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 10:34:40 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 6:01:00 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 2:37:22 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?

Yes.

Lol. They're both equal at zero.

You know that's not true. You may not accept the evidence for a creator god, but it exists
, unlike the postulations of a multiverse.

On the contrary it is blindingly obvious that there is no evidence which can be called evidence for the former despite your empty claims. If there were such evidence no-one would ever be talking about faith. Faith-based belief would only be a curiosity rather than the only known path to theism.

Considering I'm using the word "evidence" and not "proof", it's blindingly obvious that your comments above are false.

Don't be silly. There are no proofs outside of mathematics. I'm talking about evidence too. Evidence is the antithesis of faith. You guys wouldn't require faith if you had evidence.

You seem to have faith confused with blind faith. I'm not talking about this. I'm referring to faith formed by evidence and reason.
We keep asking for this evidence and you keep referring to faith, btw faith is blind by it's very definition.
Got some evidence yet?

The OP provided some evidence ("convenient for life"). You don't find it compelling, but it's evidence nonetheless.

And the fact that the phrase "blind faith" exists is proof that it's not the same as "faith".
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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12/2/2016 5:56:01 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 12/2/2016 5:01:21 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 12/2/2016 4:12:14 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/2/2016 4:04:27 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 12/2/2016 11:50:03 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/2/2016 11:44:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 12:15:56 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 10:34:40 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 6:01:00 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 2:37:22 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?

Yes.

Lol. They're both equal at zero.

You know that's not true. You may not accept the evidence for a creator god, but it exists
, unlike the postulations of a multiverse.

On the contrary it is blindingly obvious that there is no evidence which can be called evidence for the former despite your empty claims. If there were such evidence no-one would ever be talking about faith. Faith-based belief would only be a curiosity rather than the only known path to theism.

Considering I'm using the word "evidence" and not "proof", it's blindingly obvious that your comments above are false.

Don't be silly. There are no proofs outside of mathematics. I'm talking about evidence too. Evidence is the antithesis of faith. You guys wouldn't require faith if you had evidence.

You seem to have faith confused with blind faith. I'm not talking about this. I'm referring to faith formed by evidence and reason.
We keep asking for this evidence and you keep referring to faith, btw faith is blind by it's very definition.
Got some evidence yet?


The OP provided some evidence ("convenient for life"). You don't find it compelling, but it's evidence nonetheless.
And that is as backwards as thinking can get. Just look at the shape of that hole.

And the fact that the phrase "blind faith" exists is proof that it's not the same as "faith".
Produce your biblical definition of faith and claim that it's not blind.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,053
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12/2/2016 6:30:27 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 12/2/2016 5:56:01 PM, bulproof wrote:
The OP provided some evidence ("convenient for life"). You don't find it compelling, but it's evidence nonetheless.
And that is as backwards as thinking can get. Just look at the shape of that hole.

I'm with d5 on that. There is a huge difference between 'evidence' and 'proof' in that evidence is a much weaker term. That the universe is apparently fine-tuned for life is evidence for an intelligent agent, but it doesn't prove anything because there could be lots of other reasons why the universe is fine-tuned. If someones fingerprints are at a crime scene it doesn't prove he did it, but I think it would still count as 'evidence'.

The fine tuning of the universe is good evidence for an intelligent creator unless there is another explanation for it, just as your fingerprints on a murder weapon are good evidence you did it, unless you can come up with some other explanation for how they got there!
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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12/2/2016 6:30:59 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 12/2/2016 5:56:01 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/2/2016 5:01:21 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 12/2/2016 4:12:14 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/2/2016 4:04:27 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 12/2/2016 11:50:03 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/2/2016 11:44:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 12:15:56 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 10:34:40 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 6:01:00 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 2:37:22 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?

Yes.

Lol. They're both equal at zero.

You know that's not true. You may not accept the evidence for a creator god, but it exists
, unlike the postulations of a multiverse.

On the contrary it is blindingly obvious that there is no evidence which can be called evidence for the former despite your empty claims. If there were such evidence no-one would ever be talking about faith. Faith-based belief would only be a curiosity rather than the only known path to theism.

Considering I'm using the word "evidence" and not "proof", it's blindingly obvious that your comments above are false.

Don't be silly. There are no proofs outside of mathematics. I'm talking about evidence too. Evidence is the antithesis of faith. You guys wouldn't require faith if you had evidence.

You seem to have faith confused with blind faith. I'm not talking about this. I'm referring to faith formed by evidence and reason.
We keep asking for this evidence and you keep referring to faith, btw faith is blind by it's very definition.
Got some evidence yet?


The OP provided some evidence ("convenient for life"). You don't find it compelling, but it's evidence nonetheless.
And that is as backwards as thinking can get. Just look at the shape of that hole.

Insulting an argument is not an argument.

And the fact that the phrase "blind faith" exists is proof that it's not the same as "faith".
Produce your biblical definition of faith and claim that it's not blind.

Why do you require I get definition from a book that's not a dictionary?
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax
v3nesl
Posts: 4,504
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12/2/2016 7:18:57 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

The thing is, you've got to have coins before you can do any flipping. These kinds of mathematical exercises are actually way too favorable to life, even when the odds seem impossibly bad.

At the end of the day, nobody can answer the first philosophical question: Why is there anything instead of nothing? It's all quite impossible. Until one realizes that, one has not begun to be aware.
This space for rent.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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12/2/2016 10:41:41 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 12/2/2016 4:04:27 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 12/2/2016 11:50:03 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/2/2016 11:44:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 12:15:56 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 10:34:40 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 6:01:00 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 2:37:22 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?

Yes.

Lol. They're both equal at zero.

You know that's not true. You may not accept the evidence for a creator god, but it exists
, unlike the postulations of a multiverse.

On the contrary it is blindingly obvious that there is no evidence which can be called evidence for the former despite your empty claims. If there were such evidence no-one would ever be talking about faith. Faith-based belief would only be a curiosity rather than the only known path to theism.

Considering I'm using the word "evidence" and not "proof", it's blindingly obvious that your comments above are false.

Don't be silly. There are no proofs outside of mathematics. I'm talking about evidence too. Evidence is the antithesis of faith. You guys wouldn't require faith if you had evidence.

You seem to have faith confused with blind faith. I'm not talking about this. I'm referring to faith formed by evidence and reason.

That may be what you are talking about but it should have been clear from the context what I was talking about. See "faith-based belief" above.

In any event, you don't have the evidence to inspire faith as in confidence. Again, if you did, there would be no (blind) faith-based belief. Yet blind faith is at the core of all religion. You can't deny it. It's right there in your holy texts and a virtue is made of it.

You can pretend you misunderstood though if it makes you feel better. :-)
dsjpk5
Posts: 3,007
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12/3/2016 3:17:24 AM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 12/2/2016 10:41:41 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/2/2016 4:04:27 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 12/2/2016 11:50:03 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/2/2016 11:44:01 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 12:15:56 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 10:34:40 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/29/2016 6:01:00 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2016 2:37:22 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:
I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:
You are in the universe, and are a product of it.
Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.
You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.
The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.
Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.
And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.
Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.
It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.

Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.

My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.

As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?

Yes.

Lol. They're both equal at zero.

You know that's not true. You may not accept the evidence for a creator god, but it exists
, unlike the postulations of a multiverse.

On the contrary it is blindingly obvious that there is no evidence which can be called evidence for the former despite your empty claims. If there were such evidence no-one would ever be talking about faith. Faith-based belief would only be a curiosity rather than the only known path to theism.

Considering I'm using the word "evidence" and not "proof", it's blindingly obvious that your comments above are false.

Don't be silly. There are no proofs outside of mathematics. I'm talking about evidence too. Evidence is the antithesis of faith. You guys wouldn't require faith if you had evidence.

You seem to have faith confused with blind faith. I'm not talking about this. I'm referring to faith formed by evidence and reason.

That may be what you are talking about but it should have been clear from the context what I was talking about. See "faith-based belief" above.

I can't be expected to read your mind. I have a faith based belief, but its a faith based on reason and evidence.

In any event, you don't have the evidence to inspire faith as in confidence. Again, if you did, there would be no (blind) faith-based belief.

That doesn't follow. There could still be those who choose to believe without considering the available evidence

Yet blind faith is at the core of all religion.

False.

You can't deny it. It's right there in your holy texts and a virtue is made of it.

I challenge you to show me where I can find the phrase "blind faith" in the Bible.

You can pretend you misunderstood though if it makes you feel better. :-)

I'm not a mind reader. If I were, I'd be a professional poker player.
If that was the only issue, then vote moderation could be avoided more often, since a vote in which the voter does explain sufficiently how at least one point a debater made swung their vote, would be considered sufficient. -Airmax