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# What I don't get about designed-for-life.

 Posts: 96 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AMPosted: 11 months agoI've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:You are in the universe, and are a product of it.Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.- Just because you're narrow-minded doesn't mean you're always right.
 Posts: 1,912 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 11/28/2016 9:31:36 AMPosted: 11 months agoAt 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us.That is true, but it doesn"t mean that universes can come to exist only by chance.
 Posts: 5,160 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 11/28/2016 10:19:18 AMPosted: 11 months agoWe are in 'Anthropic principle' territory here.The problem is that science doesn't like long odds. As you point out, there is a 1 in 2048 chance of us being here to observe anything. While those odds aren't too bad, the way scientists are trained is to prefer a model that gives shorter odds, particularly as the real odds are probably a lot worse that 1 in 2048.That sort of thinking stems from the 'Copernican Principle'. The CP is all about thinking that there is nothing special about us, or about where we are in space ot when we are in time. In pre-Copernican times the earth and mankind were the centre of the unoverse and everything revolved around the earth and humans. The Copernican principle is all about how man is ordinary animal living on an ordinary planet orbiting an ordinary star in an ordinary galaxy. It goes across the grain to need un-ordinary odds to make it all work.So what science is looking for is a model that get the odds down to certainty. One way is to have lots of different universes, so even if the odds of life in any one universe are bad, life somewhere is guaranteed. That is why 'multiverse' theories are popular.To summarise, it's almost an aesthetic issue rather than a purely logical one.
 Posts: 1,200 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 11/28/2016 10:33:57 AMPosted: 11 months agoAt 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:You are in the universe, and are a product of it.Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.What you have stumbled upon is a "bias" in the data, or to be more technical, observer selection bias.To be it another way, an observer will only exist in a universe/on a planet compatible with it's own existence, cause if it wasn't, it wouldn't exist there in the first place.https://en.wikipedia.org...
 Posts: 4,176 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AMPosted: 11 months agoAt 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:You are in the universe, and are a product of it.Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.
 Posts: 4,176 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 11/29/2016 2:37:22 AMPosted: 11 months agoAt 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:You are in the universe, and are a product of it.Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?Yes.
 Posts: 4,176 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 11/29/2016 10:34:40 AMPosted: 11 months agoAt 11/29/2016 6:01:00 AM, dee-em wrote:At 11/29/2016 2:37:22 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:At 11/28/2016 11:34:55 AM, dee-em wrote:At 11/28/2016 10:51:54 AM, dsjpk5 wrote:At 11/28/2016 9:11:10 AM, YoshiBoy13 wrote:I've seen a lot of "well this universe is so convenient for life and so it must have been purposefully made this way". And to me this seems like it is missing the obvious:You are in the universe, and are a product of it.Let's simplify things and say you need to flip ten heads out of ten coins for life to occur. There are 2048 universes (TTTTTTTTTT, TTTTTTTTTH, TTTTTTTTHT etc.) and only one (HHHHHHHHHH) can support life.You are in the 2048th universe, the HHHHHHHHHH that can support life. You cannot observe the others (e.g. TTHHHHTHTT) because you can't see into other universes (I think if we could we'd know by now). If you are alive, you are in 10H, and all you can observe is 10H. If you were in TTHHHHTHTT, all anyone could see would be that, but there wouldn't be anyone to see it because it couldn't support life.The fact that life can exist in this universe means we are in 10H. This does not mean that just because 10H exists it must have been designed to be 10H.Yes, getting 10 heads in a row is vanishingly unlikely, but by definition, we are in 10H already. And if you had to get 10 tails instead, then we would be in 10T.And the fact that we are in the universe we are in does not mean this is the only universe, and therefore must be designed for us. If there are universes that can't support life, there would be no life to observe it.Going back to the coins analogy, say you would only be born if there were 10 heads in a row. You are born, but this doesn't mean it was designed that 10 heads were flipped. You exist from inside the one out of 2048 scenarios that could support you, and all you can see it this one.It doesn't mean the other 2047 don't exist. It doesn't mean that the universe must be designed to be this way. Out of all the random chance that happened to create life, given that you are alive, of course you're in the chance that did. You couldn't observe life not being possible if you weren't alive to do it.Sorry if it's hard to understand I haven't had my coffee yet and my thoughts are just all over the place.My favorite part of the multiverse theory is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever.As opposed to the bountiful evidence for a creator god?Yes.Lol. They're both equal at zero.You know that's not true. You may not accept the evidence for a creator god, but it exists, unlike the postulations of a multiverse.