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Finding God

Cerebral_Narcissist
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1/26/2011 10:31:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I've often tried to challenge believers into making a case for God, or proving the truth of their religion. Amongst the minority of people who reply there is a common theme, in that many claim that faith is not something reached by evidence or logical proof, but by the quiet day to day small manifestations of the divine. Personal experience in other words. This is of course begs the question of how does such personal experience come about, how does one know God when their heart is full of doubt?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/26/2011 10:39:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I agree with alfonso.

Accept that which you cannot change... and if you happen to reside in the valley Accept the nature of things, and do what you will given the way the world is.

this is in response to your poutiness in the other thread.. as well as your discontent with a world w/o god :-)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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1/26/2011 10:47:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
sorry to be such a jerk.. you weren't that pouty..

but the God gives Super-meaning thing is silly.

things are meaningful if you care about them... And whether God exists or not... You're the same... you still have emotions/feelings.. and still care about things..

I don't get how what happens in a world without god is any less personally significant.
(or any less significant Generally, as "personal significance" is the only kind of significance)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/26/2011 10:53:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 10:47:30 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
sorry to be such a jerk.. you weren't that pouty..


I hadn't realised you were being a jerk, I thought you gave me a relatively good reply.

but the God gives Super-meaning thing is silly.

things are meaningful if you care about them... And whether God exists or not... You're the same... you still have emotions/feelings.. and still care about things..


Simply caring about something, does not equate to the deeper sense of meaning that I would like to hold to. My emotions and feelings are infinite and temporary.

I don't get how what happens in a world without god is any less personally significant.
(or any less significant Generally, as "personal significance" is the only kind of significance)

It may very well be that I seek religion because I suffer from a psychological weakness.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
CosmicAlfonzo
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1/26/2011 10:55:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Think of the most amazing, fantastic, and most b!tchin thing you can that exists, and then call it god.

Now make sure you call it god with your tongue firmly placed in the side of your cheek.

Embrace "TRUE Islam", my friend. It is far more real than Muhammad Islam, and the God of Muhammad following Muslims is a slave to the God that exists in actuality.

<,<

>.>
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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1/26/2011 10:57:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 10:53:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
It may very well be that I seek religion because I suffer from a psychological weakness.

Oh, in that case, I suggest Buddhism.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cerebral_Narcissist
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1/26/2011 11:06:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 10:57:25 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 1/26/2011 10:53:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
It may very well be that I seek religion because I suffer from a psychological weakness.


Oh, in that case, I suggest Buddhism.

I've never much cared for a denial of the self, espeically if it comes with such little reward... which it would do because the self wants rewards...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/26/2011 11:09:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 10:53:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Simply caring about something, does not equate to the deeper sense of meaning that I would like to hold to. My emotions and feelings are infinite and temporary.

Hold to that which comes, and release that which goes. Accept what you care about at the moment, and release Old cares that are no longer the case.

Accept how the world is (the current nature of your will Included).. and act as you will Given how it is.

Actions happen in the present.. and so don't require Ultimate Values/cares to be based upon.. Only Present ones.

And I can't see how Endlessly accepting the current nature of things, and acting as you will in the world Given the nature of things can be troubling...

If you end up caring differently later.. and would have had your past self do different... Even Still I still don't see a problem. Your past self was different, and Naturally would do what he would do... It happened that way due to the nature of things.. there's no reason to pine about wishing past things were different.. they happened that way Necessarily..

Accept it, and act as you will Now.. Only in this can you find contentment.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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1/26/2011 11:09:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 10:57:25 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 1/26/2011 10:53:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
It may very well be that I seek religion because I suffer from a psychological weakness.


Oh, in that case, I suggest Buddhism.

Daoism :o)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/26/2011 11:12:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 11:06:32 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/26/2011 10:57:25 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 1/26/2011 10:53:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
It may very well be that I seek religion because I suffer from a psychological weakness.


Oh, in that case, I suggest Buddhism.

I've never much cared for a denial of the self, espeically if it comes with such little reward... which it would do because the self wants rewards...

Dude, In seeking Ultimate Cares.. "Cares of God" that go beyond your own spontaneous ones...

You seek to give up your self.. and latch onto God's Cares.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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1/26/2011 11:17:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
8/11/2010 9:29:28 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
There is meaning... meaning to me.

things are significant... significant to me.

Am I a Nihilist... no.

I think those who affirm "higher meaning" usually discount/Deny ACTUAL meaning and thus THEY deserve to be called nihilists.

Especially people like Augustine the hippopotamus who actually converted to christianity of his own accord.

The only reason to search for "Higher" meaning is b/c you don't have/appreciate that meaning which actually exists.

from a nihilism thread:
http://www.debate.org...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/26/2011 11:26:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Augustine the Hippopotamus... priceless...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mattrodstrom
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1/26/2011 11:30:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 11:26:20 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Augustine the Hippopotamus... priceless...

8)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
CosmicAlfonzo
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1/26/2011 11:37:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 11:12:04 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/26/2011 11:06:32 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/26/2011 10:57:25 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
At 1/26/2011 10:53:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
It may very well be that I seek religion because I suffer from a psychological weakness.


Oh, in that case, I suggest Buddhism.

I've never much cared for a denial of the self, espeically if it comes with such little reward... which it would do because the self wants rewards...

Dude, In seeking Ultimate Cares.. "Cares of God" that go beyond your own spontaneous ones...

You seek to give up your self.. and latch onto God's Cares.

Buddhism and Daoism do not conflict.

I consider myself a combination of both.

The only conflict when one has a poor understanding of one or the other. They actually both compliment each other very well.

If you don't understand Buddhism, you are going to waste your life away in a monastery trying to empty your mind all day.

If you don't understand Taoism, you are going to keep re-reading the Tao Te Ching, and maybe even start doing silly things like practice Chinese magic.

Buddhism isn't about denying yourself, it is about getting to the point to where your desires do not effect your mood negatively. This is achieved when you learn to stop taking things so seriously. By doing this, you actually free yourself to be MORE of yourself. I'll point to the quote in my sig, as it is relevant...

"A truly egoless person is not humble at all.
He is neither arrogant nor humble; he is simply himself."

Both of them deal with breaking down the illusions that people have about the world due to the natural human tendency to interpret the world through symbols. Often times, we spend more effort interpreting symbols rather than the actual word itself.

If anything, both philosophies, especially when taken together allow you to express yourself freely. They are the type of philosophies where.. Once you understand them, you never have to read any more about it again. You can forget all about them. They are philosophies of awareness, of understanding, they are not meant to be doctrines.

So a true Buddhist and a True Daoist will not say that they are either.. They will be able to see through cultural trappings, see the absurdity of an understanding reliant on symbolism, and simply say, "I am what I am, and that's all that I am."

Then maybe chug a can of spinach, and throw a pie in your face while running away laughing. It is liberating more than anything. It is a lot more profound than I can even make it sound. You just have to kind of know what I'm talking about. We can discuss it all day long ,and it still won't even guarantee that you know what I'm saying.

Which is why Buddha always had his troll face on, Lao Tzu didn't talk about it at all, and both always spoke in metaphors.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
mattrodstrom
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1/26/2011 11:39:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
also... The Ultimate manifests through your spontaneous, infinite, changing cares.

so.. if you care to hold to something "ultimate"... you need not try to painfully contort yourself trying to conform to the cares of others...

Joy, anger, grief, delight, worry, regret, fickleness, inflexibility, modesty, willfulness, candor, insolence - music from empty holes, mushrooms springing up in dampness, day and night replacing each other before us, and no one knows where they sprout from. Let it be! Let it be! [It is enough that] morning and evening we have them, and they are the means by which we live. Without them we would not exist; without us they would have nothing to take hold of. This comes close to the matter. But I do not know what makes them the way they are. It would seem as though they have some True Master, and yet I find no trace of him. He can act - that is certain. Yet I cannot see his form. He has identity but no form.

And, by "true master"... The Dao is meant.. which is not personified.. and does not have characteristics.. as would a "god"... It has "Identity but no form" Something exists.. Resulting in all things.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
CosmicAlfonzo
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1/26/2011 11:39:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
And actually, come to think of it, I don't suggest Buddhism or Taoism.. I suggest you read the sayings of Buddha, and the "Tao Te Ching".
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
mattrodstrom
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1/26/2011 11:41:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
It seems to me that Buddha held Compassion as an absolute good.

that's how I think Buddhism and Daoism conflict.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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1/26/2011 11:41:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 11:39:33 AM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
And actually, come to think of it, I don't suggest Buddhism or Taoism.. I suggest you read the sayings of Buddha, and the "Tao Te Ching".

zhuangzi!
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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1/26/2011 11:44:33 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 11:41:33 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
It seems to me that Buddha held Compassion as an absolute good.

that's how I think Buddhism and Daoism conflict.

and yes, I understand that he's said otherwise as well...

I think he was inconsistent.. and I understand that the notion of Raising up Compassion doesn't really fit in with his General understanding of things.. but it seems that that's what he did anyways :/

Otherwise, yes I agree on the Big Ideas.. they're very similar.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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1/26/2011 11:46:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 11:44:33 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Otherwise, yes I agree on the Big Ideas.. they're very similar.

and, plenty of "daoist" works are similarly inconsistent.. so I understand that you'd take issue with my quibbling..

they're both very similar.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
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1/26/2011 12:07:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 10:31:41 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Personal experience in other words. This is of course begs the question of how does such personal experience come about, how does one know God when their heart is full of doubt?

If you're looking for complete certainty in religion you're not going to find it.

Try praying.
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CosmicAlfonzo
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1/26/2011 12:17:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Most "Daoist" and "Buddhist" works are trash.

Understand the psychology. Understand that you are desiring inner peace for yourself.. But the simple act of desiring it is what is keeping you from reaching that inner peace. The ideas stand apart from the men who teach them.

These things are a lot simpler than they are made out to be. Understand that like 90% of Buddhist output is either trolling people who are expecting a religion, or ignorance from people who don't know what they are talking about. If you are truly honest with yourself, you are already going in the right direction.

Listen to what makes sense, don't take anyone's word for anything. Don't even listen to me, I'm a fool, and anything I say is going to be misleading. Just by talking, I've already screwed up.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
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1/26/2011 12:20:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
And never underestimate the ability of a mind to accept absurd ideas as fact in an emotionally compromised state. It's happened to the best of em.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
mattrodstrom
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1/26/2011 12:21:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 12:17:31 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Most "Daoist" and "Buddhist" works are trash.

again.. Zhuangzi!

... ...

and.. Buddha seemed to put compassion on floaty, ungrounded, pedestal :P
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
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1/26/2011 12:29:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 11:41:33 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
It seems to me that Buddha held Compassion as an absolute good.

False.

that's how I think Buddhism and Daoism conflict.

Buddhism and Taoism don't conflict. They compliment eachother. In fact, Zen is actually the direct combination of Taoism and Buddhism.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tyler90az
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1/26/2011 12:29:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 12:20:39 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
And never underestimate the ability of a mind to accept absurd ideas as fact in an emotionally compromised state. It's happened to the best of em.

It's called being humbled.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
GeoLaureate8
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1/26/2011 12:36:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/26/2011 12:21:22 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/26/2011 12:17:31 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Most "Daoist" and "Buddhist" works are trash.

And yet you admitted to me that you haven't read Buddhist scripture, so how can you call it trash?

again.. Zhuangzi!

... ...

You appear to concur with Cosmic. Have read Buddhist scripture as well?

and.. Buddha seemed to put compassion on floaty, ungrounded, pedestal :P

False. Seriously, what have you been reading?

He doesn't place compassion on a pedestal nor does he claim it's an absolute good. Buddha doesnt hold to ideals, compassion is instrumental.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
innomen
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1/26/2011 12:37:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I would guess that the eastern "religions" wouldn't satisfy C_N. I think they're too philosophically based versus theologically based for him.
mattrodstrom
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1/26/2011 12:47:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
oh, and Geo... I accidentally revived the old thread where you didn't explain why buddha's are always compassionate :p
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."