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Using Satan to Disprove the Christian God

GeoLaureate8
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2/9/2011 4:44:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
This thread is inspired by charles who said that God and evil don't mix and that's why Satan got kicked out of Heaven. Here's why that's problematic and how Satan disproves the Christian God (basically it shows that Satan and God are incompatible doctrines and therefore they can't simultaneously exist):

The Argument from Satan

P1: God is omnibenevolent.
P2: God is non-contingent. (He is necessarily and independently existent.)
P3: Satan is contingent on God. (Satan can't be non-contingent because that would make him a God, but monotheist doctrine says there can only be one God.)
P4: Satan is evil.
P5: If Satan is contingent on God, then God is responsible for the evil committed by Satan. [P3, P4]
P6: Gods omnibenevolence is inconsistent with being responsible for evil. (Evil is compatible with God, but he can't be the cause of it.)
C: God and Satan cannot simultaneously exist. [P1, P4, P5, P6]

Try and refute that one!
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/9/2011 4:47:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
God and Satan CAN and DO exist.

The theistic understanding of God is the true Satan.

The real god doesn't give a arse hair about Satan, because Satan only exists in the mind of the believers.

Would anybody really be a follower of Satan if Satan didn't feign righteousness?
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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2/9/2011 4:50:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 4:44:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This thread is inspired by charles who said that God and evil don't mix and that's why Satan got kicked out of Heaven. Here's why that's problematic and how Satan disproves the Christian God (basically it shows that Satan and God are incompatible doctrines and therefore they can't simultaneously exist):

The Argument from Satan

P1: God is omnibenevolent.
P2: God is non-contingent. (He is necessarily and independently existent.)
P3: Satan is contingent on God. (Satan can't be non-contingent because that would make him a God, but monotheist doctrine says there can only be one God.)
P4: Satan is evil.
P5: If Satan is contingent on God, then God is responsible for the evil committed by Satan. [P3, P4]
P6: Gods omnibenevolence is inconsistent with being responsible for evil. (Evil is compatible with God, but he can't be the cause of it.)
C: God and Satan cannot simultaneously exist. [P1, P4, P5, P6]

Try and refute that one!

Sure ! Just send me a debate challenge. This is an easy one too.
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Charles0103
Posts: 523
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2/9/2011 4:51:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 4:44:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This thread is inspired by charles who said that God and evil don't mix and that's why Satan got kicked out of Heaven. Here's why that's problematic and how Satan disproves the Christian God (basically it shows that Satan and God are incompatible doctrines and therefore they can't simultaneously exist):

I love you too, brother.

The Argument from Satan

P1: God is omnibenevolent.
P2: God is non-contingent. (He is necessarily and independently existent.)
P3: Satan is contingent on God. (Satan can't be non-contingent because that would make him a God, but monotheist doctrine says there can only be one God.)
P4: Satan is evil.
P5: If Satan is contingent on God, then God is responsible for the evil committed by Satan. [P3, P4]
P6: Gods omnibenevolence is inconsistent with being responsible for evil. (Evil is compatible with God, but he can't be the cause of it.)
C: God and Satan cannot simultaneously exist. [P1, P4, P5, P6]

Try and refute that one!

Mk, I will if you insist. You're missing the point. My point is that God doesn't hang out with evil. The only reason He allows evil to stick around (on earth, not heaven) is because He wants us to have the choice to love Him.

Saying God is responsible for the problems we have on earth is, quite frankly, stupid. We chose this sinful nature, not God. Again, God gives us a choice. However, God promises us that He does win in the end. Why? He's God.
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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2/9/2011 5:07:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 4:44:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
This thread is inspired by charles who said that God and evil don't mix and that's why Satan got kicked out of Heaven. Here's why that's problematic and how Satan disproves the Christian God (basically it shows that Satan and God are incompatible doctrines and therefore they can't simultaneously exist):

The Argument from Satan

P1: God is omnibenevolent.
P2: God is non-contingent. (He is necessarily and independently existent.)
P3: Satan is contingent on God. (Satan can't be non-contingent because that would make him a God, but monotheist doctrine says there can only be one God.)
P4: Satan is evil.
P5: If Satan is contingent on God, then God is responsible for the evil committed by Satan. [P3, P4]
P6: Gods omnibenevolence is inconsistent with being responsible for evil. (Evil is compatible with God, but he can't be the cause of it.)
C: God and Satan cannot simultaneously exist. [P1, P4, P5, P6]

Try and refute that one!

Non-sequitur. P5 exhibits agglomeration.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/9/2011 5:47:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 5:07:30 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Non-sequitur. P5 exhibits agglomeration.

No.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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2/9/2011 5:51:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 5:47:30 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/9/2011 5:07:30 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Non-sequitur. P5 exhibits agglomeration.


No.

Yes.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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2/9/2011 5:57:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 5:51:54 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 2/9/2011 5:47:30 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/9/2011 5:07:30 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Non-sequitur. P5 exhibits agglomeration.


No.

Yes.

That has to be the lamest argument I've ever seen on DDO. Rofl
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/9/2011 6:03:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 5:57:17 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 2/9/2011 5:51:54 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 2/9/2011 5:47:30 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/9/2011 5:07:30 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Non-sequitur. P5 exhibits agglomeration.


No.

Yes.

That has to be the lamest argument I've ever seen on DDO. Rofl

epic debate.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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2/9/2011 6:04:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 5:57:17 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 2/9/2011 5:51:54 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 2/9/2011 5:47:30 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/9/2011 5:07:30 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Non-sequitur. P5 exhibits agglomeration.


No.

Yes.

That has to be the lamest argument I've ever seen on DDO. Rofl

Lol, it's really not debatable though. Basically, he's combining Peter van Inwagen's consequence argument against free will with the problem of evil. He makes the same mistake van Inwagen makes -- agglomeration. This article explains it in greater detail: http://www.jstor.org...
Charles0103
Posts: 523
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2/9/2011 6:26:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 6:00:04 PM, badger wrote:
can we ever just stop with this silly christian god business already...?

No!
"And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." Jesus in Luke 11:9-10
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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2/9/2011 7:39:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 4:44:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Try and refute that one!

How is this any different than the classical problem of suffering/evil :

1) X is evil
2) God created X

Therefore God can not be omni-excellent.

Isn't free will the most obvious counter to that argument.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/9/2011 7:43:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Free will is an optical illusion.

Yes, optical, fvck you.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/9/2011 8:00:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
The blind know that they don't have free will.

That's why you don't see them arguing over that kind of stuff on DDO.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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2/9/2011 8:07:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 8:00:36 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:

The blind know that they don't have free will.

What about those that are only blind in one eye are they simply compatibilists?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/9/2011 8:31:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 7:39:18 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 2/9/2011 4:44:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Try and refute that one!

How is this any different than the classical problem of suffering/evil :

1) X is evil
2) God created X

Therefore God can not be omni-excellent.

Just because God created everything doesn't mean God is directly responsible for all evil. Seriously, actually read my argument because I covered that in the syllogism.

Satan is different from all the other creations because he is both inherently evil and contingent on God.

Isn't free will the most obvious counter to that argument.

This is exactly why my argument is different and stronger because that counter doesn't apply to my argument. That counter only justifies "moral evil" committed by free creatures who have the ability to choose between good and evil.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/9/2011 8:33:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 6:00:04 PM, badger wrote:
can we ever just stop with this silly christian god business already...?

I'm pretty sure I talk about Buddhism more than the Christian God.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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2/9/2011 8:37:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 8:31:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/9/2011 7:39:18 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 2/9/2011 4:44:36 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Try and refute that one!

How is this any different than the classical problem of suffering/evil :

1) X is evil
2) God created X

Therefore God can not be omni-excellent.

Just because God created everything doesn't mean God is directly responsible for all evil. Seriously, actually read my argument because I covered that in the syllogism.

Satan is different from all the other creations because he is both inherently evil and contingent on God.

Isn't free will the most obvious counter to that argument.

This is exactly why my argument is different and stronger because that counter doesn't apply to my argument. That counter only justifies "moral evil" committed by free creatures who have the ability to choose between good and evil.

Most Christians believe Satan possesses free will, hence the term fallen angel. I know InquireTruth does, at least. If Satan was created evil, you would have a point.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/9/2011 8:47:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 8:37:45 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Most Christians believe Satan possesses free will, hence the term fallen angel. I know InquireTruth does, at least. If Satan was created evil, you would have a point.

Satan is synonymous with "devil" which in Latin means "diabolical."

Not to mention, God specifically uses Satan to do evil (for example, to Job) and tempt people.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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2/9/2011 8:47:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 8:37:45 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Most Christians believe Satan possesses free will, hence the term fallen angel. I know InquireTruth does, at least. If Satan was created evil, you would have a point.

Actually, even then you probably wouldn't, because it could still be argued that the evil Satan brings into the world is necessary to accomplish some greater good. Of course, that would raise a lot of questions pertaining to free will and moral responsibility, but basically it would be no different from running the PoE against a Calvinist.
J.Kenyon
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2/9/2011 8:50:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 8:47:17 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/9/2011 8:37:45 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Most Christians believe Satan possesses free will, hence the term fallen angel. I know InquireTruth does, at least. If Satan was created evil, you would have a point.

Satan is synonymous with "devil" which in Latin means "diabolical."

Your point being?

Not to mention, God specifically uses Satan to do evil (for example, to Job) and tempt people.

That in itself invites questions about God's benevolence. No different from any other atrocities committed in the OT.
Cliff.Stamp
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2/9/2011 8:50:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 8:31:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Satan is different from all the other creations because he is both inherently evil and contingent on God.

How can you justify Satan is inherently evil?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/9/2011 11:23:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 8:50:45 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 2/9/2011 8:31:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Satan is different from all the other creations because he is both inherently evil and contingent on God.

How can you justify Satan is inherently evil?

How can you justify your face.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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2/9/2011 11:29:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 11:23:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/9/2011 8:50:45 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 2/9/2011 8:31:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Satan is different from all the other creations because he is both inherently evil and contingent on God.

How can you justify Satan is inherently evil?

How can you justify your face.

Checkmate, Cliff.Stamp.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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2/10/2011 1:45:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/9/2011 11:29:45 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 2/9/2011 11:23:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/9/2011 8:50:45 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 2/9/2011 8:31:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Satan is different from all the other creations because he is both inherently evil and contingent on God.

How can you justify Satan is inherently evil?

How can you justify your face.

Checkmate, Cliff.Stamp.

False. I justified Satans inherent evil a few posts ago.

Question. If Satan is a moral agent who can choose between good and evil like us, then what separates him from us and what separates demons from us, from a moral standpoint.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
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2/10/2011 8:45:08 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/10/2011 1:45:35 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/9/2011 11:29:45 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 2/9/2011 11:23:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 2/9/2011 8:50:45 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 2/9/2011 8:31:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Satan is different from all the other creations because he is both inherently evil and contingent on God.

How can you justify Satan is inherently evil?

How can you justify your face.

Checkmate, Cliff.Stamp.

False. I justified Satans inherent evil a few posts ago.

Question. If Satan is a moral agent who can choose between good and evil like us, then what separates him from us and what separates demons from us, from a moral standpoint.

I was raised Catholic.. and my parents told me angels have free will... BUT they only choose any given thing once... and stick with it..

so.. if satan chooses to abandon God... then it's final.. meanwhile people are generally less resolute.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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2/10/2011 8:58:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/10/2011 1:45:35 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Question. If Satan is a moral agent who can choose between good and evil like us, then what separates him from us and what separates demons from us, from a moral standpoint.

The same thing that separates us from chimps - from a moral standpoint.

Note the classification of evil includes free will as evil requires intent. If it was argued that Satan does not have free will and is simply a directed agent of God then by definition all its actions are inherently good by the definition of God.

The obvious defense for this would be similar to how William Craig argues against that which causes natural harm, i.e., earthquakes - while they do cause harm, they are a local harm and serve a greater good.