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Pascal's wager

Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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2/10/2011 9:49:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If Pascal's Wager is the only reason you believe in a god, then you don't believe in a god.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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2/10/2011 11:01:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/10/2011 9:49:12 PM, Korashk wrote:
If Pascal's Wager is the only reason you believe in a god, then you don't believe in a god.

Indeed. If you believe in God, Pascal's wager becomes moot. It was designed for those that don't as a way of hedging bets. At best you can say 'I follow certain religiously prescribed actions' in regards to PW - it doesn't create nor validate belief in God itself.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/10/2011 11:19:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/10/2011 9:49:12 PM, Korashk wrote:
If Pascal's Wager is the only reason you believe in a god, then you don't believe in a god.

This.

At 2/10/2011 11:13:43 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
Precisely, if you justify your belief with "meh... I've got nothing to lose" you don't truly believe in god.

and this.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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2/10/2011 11:19:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Lol, this made me laugh.

Believe in god "because you have nothing to lose"? If I gained anything from faith that I deemed necessary or beneficial, I'd probably be more willing to the idea of a deity. But I won't delude myself on the premise "why not?".

Like others have said, your faith seems to be shaky at best -- and I'd question why you cling to the idea of a deity just because faith seems "good" to you.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,239
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2/11/2011 4:16:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/10/2011 11:30:48 PM, Sangers wrote:
Yup what everyone said. Also, isn't an irrational "leap of faith" a pre-requisite for heaven?

Ok I guess I wasn't being honest, I definitely do believe that a Christian life is a better life and not because of logic.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/11/2011 4:44:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/11/2011 4:16:19 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/10/2011 11:30:48 PM, Sangers wrote:
Yup what everyone said. Also, isn't an irrational "leap of faith" a pre-requisite for heaven?

Ok I guess I wasn't being honest, I definitely do believe that a Christian life is a better life and not because of logic.

So your beliefs are based entirely on faith? Nothing wrong with that I suppose. At least you're being honest about it.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,239
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2/11/2011 4:46:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/11/2011 4:44:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/11/2011 4:16:19 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/10/2011 11:30:48 PM, Sangers wrote:
Yup what everyone said. Also, isn't an irrational "leap of faith" a pre-requisite for heaven?

Ok I guess I wasn't being honest, I definitely do believe that a Christian life is a better life and not because of logic.

So your beliefs are based entirely on faith? Nothing wrong with that I suppose. At least you're being honest about it.

well it's more like... I think Jesus was a great role model for life, and he really believed in a God, so if I want to emulate him, I should too.
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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2/11/2011 4:55:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/10/2011 9:26:29 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Does anyone else believe in a God only because of this besides me?

I sure don't . Don't get me wrong, this can be a very effective argument if used properly but I would question my salvation if this was the only reason. Just saying.
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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2/11/2011 4:57:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/10/2011 11:13:43 PM, Rockylightning wrote:
Precisely, if you justify your belief with "meh... I've got nothing to lose" you don't truly believe in god.
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,239
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2/11/2011 4:57:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/11/2011 4:55:21 PM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 2/10/2011 9:26:29 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Does anyone else believe in a God only because of this besides me?

I sure don't . Don't get me wrong, this can be a very effective argument if used properly but I would question my salvation if this was the only reason. Just saying.

You are right, I mean, what if this was your only basis and you believed in an evil God?
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/11/2011 6:37:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Pascal's wager doesn't just apply to Christianity you know, it can apply to any faith that claims to be the way.

However, if you are going to have faith in a religion, then at least get serious about it so you can get the real message of what the religion is trying to say.

"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding." - Proverbs 4:7
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
vardas0antras
Posts: 983
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2/12/2011 11:05:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/11/2011 4:57:25 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/11/2011 4:55:21 PM, vardas0antras wrote:
At 2/10/2011 9:26:29 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Does anyone else believe in a God only because of this besides me?

I sure don't . Don't get me wrong, this can be a very effective argument if used properly but I would question my salvation if this was the only reason. Just saying.

You are right, I mean, what if this was your only basis and you believed in an evil God?

You ought to convert to Atheism. At least you won't be lying to yourself. You believe in an evil God? Oh my we have another one....
"When he awoke in a tomb three days later he would actually have believed that he rose from the dead" FREEDO about the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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2/12/2011 12:20:25 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/10/2011 9:26:29 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Does anyone else believe in a God only because of this besides me?

You believe in God because of Pascals Wager.... people like you exist?

I am speechless.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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2/12/2011 12:26:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/10/2011 9:26:29 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Does anyone else believe in a God only because of this besides me?

We can use pascal's wager for any god - that's why it is full of fail.

Do you dare not believe in Zeus?
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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2/12/2011 4:09:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/10/2011 9:26:29 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Does anyone else believe in a God only because of this besides me?

Pascal's wager takes for granted that God is the punitive sort who will make one pay for losing the wager. A God whose love is not conditional on whether or not you believe in him renders the wager moot. But isn't God also a judge? Well, only in the sense of making value judgments, not in the sense of doling out rewards and punishments. We create our own punishing outcomes for our bad actions, God is a loving "judge" who certainly isn't going to sentence us to eternal damnation for failing to apprehend his existence! Hence, Pascal's wager is quite meaningless, just a bit of theological masturbation.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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2/16/2011 8:33:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/11/2011 6:37:20 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Pascal's wager doesn't just apply to Christianity you know, it can apply to any faith that claims to be the way.

However, if you are going to have faith in a religion, then at least get serious about it so you can get the real message of what the religion is trying to say.

"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding." - Proverbs 4:7

Please define wisdom. Knowledge. You have mentioned this several times and I am curious to where you are going with it. Thanks.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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2/16/2011 10:03:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/10/2011 9:26:29 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Does anyone else believe in a God only because of this besides me?

What about all the other religions besides christianity? It is not just atheism or Christianity. If this is true, and you pick the wrong religion, you go to Hell anyway. How do you know which religion is right?
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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2/16/2011 10:30:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/16/2011 10:03:17 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/10/2011 9:26:29 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Does anyone else believe in a God only because of this besides me?

What about all the other religions besides christianity? It is not just atheism or Christianity. If this is true, and you pick the wrong religion, you go to Hell anyway. How do you know which religion is right?

Actually that is where the wager still stands. Even if you end up getting it wrong your odds are still better then the obvious outcome if you remain in your atheism. I think that is the whole point of the wager in the first place.

It's like standing in the car lot trying to pick between three cars. You don't know for sure which one is the lemon. You have someone telling you that two of them are the best choice and everyone telling you the red one is the bad deal. Would it be wise to pick the red one?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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2/17/2011 1:14:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/16/2011 8:33:41 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/11/2011 6:37:20 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Pascal's wager doesn't just apply to Christianity you know, it can apply to any faith that claims to be the way.

However, if you are going to have faith in a religion, then at least get serious about it so you can get the real message of what the religion is trying to say.

"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding." - Proverbs 4:7

Please define wisdom. Knowledge. You have mentioned this several times and I am curious to where you are going with it. Thanks.

Get understanding.

I'm tired of hearing Christians who have the same interpretation that has been spoon fed to them by their teachers. These so called followers of Jesus Christ have absolutely no idea what Jesus was about, and their understanding is based on the faulty interpretations of men who were not able to grasp the metaphorical deepness of what Jesus was saying. Their interpretations almost always support their faulty and misguided understanding of what Christianity is supposed to be.

It is for this very reason that I doubt many have actually seriously studied their religion directly.

Also, most Christians only seem to realize half of the time when a text is a metaphor.. and usually, they are incapable of interpreting it in any meaningful manner anyway... Sometimes the metaphors only truly click when you read between the lines.

The only thing I am saying is the same thing that Jesus was saying.. The same thing the prophets and writers of the Old Testament were saying.. GET UNDERSTANDING.

If you don't, you are going to be a slave to your own ignorance for the rest of your days, and any misery that inevitably befalls you, you only have yourself to blame. You have to actually take your religion seriously, while at the same time retaining your personal integrity and open mindedness to get what I'm saying.

When you get it, you will have heaven on Earth, and you will be born again in the truest sense of the word.

So while I do not consider myself a Christian(As it is pretty much required to believe that Jesus was a divine being to be a Christian it seems), I will still sometimes point people in that direction. However, Christianity, like all religions falls into the same problem.. The same trap...

They don't do their job unless the adherents are both serious, dutiful followers who are always looking to learn more, are open minded, and honest with themselves.

If you do that, all religions lead to the realization of the big cosmic joke... Some are better at leading you there than others... But they are merely paths, and it is up to the ones walking on the paths to actually move their feet.

The more you think you know though, the harder it is for you to learn. Abolish all preconceptions, and then dive into your preferred path.

Doesn't even have to be religion.. In fact, works with science too.. Though, that is probably the hardest path to follow if you want in on the big cosmic joke... It also works with art!

It is nearly impossible to explain, and absurd to prove, because it proves itself.. You pretty much know it is right, because all things point to it, and once you understand it, you can't undo the happiness that it brings.

As someone who thinks from a scientific perspective, I realize how ridiculous it sounds, but.. yeah, it's just it.

You pretty much know it when you got it. It's almost frustrating at how ambiguous or even crazy one can sound when trying to explain it.. but anyone can figure it out. That's part of the joke.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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2/17/2011 7:20:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/16/2011 10:30:39 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/16/2011 10:03:17 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/10/2011 9:26:29 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Does anyone else believe in a God only because of this besides me?

What about all the other religions besides christianity? It is not just atheism or Christianity. If this is true, and you pick the wrong religion, you go to Hell anyway. How do you know which religion is right?

Actually that is where the wager still stands. Even if you end up getting it wrong your odds are still better then the obvious outcome if you remain in your atheism. I think that is the whole point of the wager in the first place.

It's like standing in the car lot trying to pick between three cars. You don't know for sure which one is the lemon. You have someone telling you that two of them are the best choice and everyone telling you the red one is the bad deal. Would it be wise to pick the red one?

Ok your example makes no sense, but I see what you mean. But to me, the likelihood of any of them being right because they all claim to be and claim every other religion to be wrong makes me think that it would just be dumb, lying to myself, and pointless to believe because of that wager.
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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2/17/2011 8:01:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/16/2011 10:30:39 PM, jharry wrote:
At 2/16/2011 10:03:17 PM, rogue wrote:
At 2/10/2011 9:26:29 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Does anyone else believe in a God only because of this besides me?

What about all the other religions besides christianity? It is not just atheism or Christianity. If this is true, and you pick the wrong religion, you go to Hell anyway. How do you know which religion is right?

Actually that is where the wager still stands. Even if you end up getting it wrong your odds are still better then the obvious outcome if you remain in your atheism. I think that is the whole point of the wager in the first place.
A religion with a god that rewards atheism.
Pascal's Wager fail.
It's like standing in the car lot trying to pick between three cars. You don't know for sure which one is the lemon. You have someone telling you that two of them are the best choice and everyone telling you the red one is the bad deal. Would it be wise to pick the red one?
Argumentum ad populum.
It is as wise to pick the red one as to pick the others. What other people say have no bearing on that matter unless they can demonstrably verify that picking the red one is worse than the other choices.
I miss the old members.