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Biological Enhancements

tvellalott
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5/18/2011 8:07:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
OK, so we've probably a while away from any Bioshock-type enhancements but given the increasingly efficient and successful surgery for things like hip replacement, I pose this question:

If you could be surgically modified to make your body faster, more durable and stronger than it could ever be naturally, would you take it?

The cost is obviously you become less human.
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Grape
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5/18/2011 8:10:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 8:07:08 PM, tvellalott wrote:
OK, so we've probably a while away from any Bioshock-type enhancements but given the increasingly efficient and successful surgery for things like hip replacement, I pose this question:

If you could be surgically modified to make your body faster, more durable and stronger than it could ever be naturally, would you take it?


Assuming there were no other costs, of course I would. You can already do this: it's call steroids. It's not worth the side effects, especially because being stronger, faster, and more durable is generally not that much of an advantage.

The cost is obviously you become less human.

How so and so what?
Korashk
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5/18/2011 8:27:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 8:07:08 PM, tvellalott wrote:
If you could be surgically modified to make your body faster, more durable and stronger than it could ever be naturally, would you take it?

In a heartbeat.

The cost is obviously you become less human.

This isn't bad. My species doesn't make me what I am, my sapience does.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
tvellalott
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5/18/2011 8:36:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 8:10:21 PM, Grape wrote:
At 5/18/2011 8:07:08 PM, tvellalott wrote:
OK, so we've probably a while away from any Bioshock-type enhancements but given the increasingly efficient and successful surgery for things like hip replacement, I pose this question:

If you could be surgically modified to make your body faster, more durable and stronger than it could ever be naturally, would you take it?


Assuming there were no other costs, of course I would. You can already do this: it's call steroids. It's not worth the side effects, especially because being stronger, faster, and more durable is generally not that much of an advantage.

An example of what I'm talking about would be having an unnecessary hip-replacement because some new form of artificial hip is superior to a natural one. Another example would be those artificial legs which allow some disabled athletes to run faster than normal athletes.

The cost is obviously you become less human.

How so and so what?
How so: Well if you consider yourself born 100% human and if you had your leg replaced with a robotic one you would be consider 95% human. I mean you become less human and more cyborg until eventually you would just be a robot.
So what? Exactly. Although I'm quite fond of my legs. There would have to be some super advantages to make me willing to part with them (like running 100kmh or something)

At 5/18/2011 8:27:01 PM, Korashk wrote:
This isn't bad. My species doesn't make me what I am, my sapience does.

And if we were able to start enhancing your brain; i.e. memory upgrades; processor upgrades (I know the brain isn't really a computer, but I don't know how these things would work if they came to exist).
You are defined by your brain, if you modified it would you still be you?
(I would answer: YES! And a better me at that, b!tches!!!)
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belle
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5/19/2011 12:18:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 8:07:08 PM, tvellalott wrote:
OK, so we've probably a while away from any Bioshock-type enhancements but given the increasingly efficient and successful surgery for things like hip replacement, I pose this question:

If you could be surgically modified to make your body faster, more durable and stronger than it could ever be naturally, would you take it?

The cost is obviously you become less human.

why not? it seems like an irrational prejudice to choose a weaker body over a stronger one just because you won't then have all your original parts. the replaced bits aren't essential to "who you are". fiddling in the brain is another question, but i don't think anyone would mind becoming smarter as long as the side effects were reasonable (and didn't include death! poor algernon!)
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Logic_on_rails
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5/19/2011 1:53:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 8:07:08 PM, tvellalott wrote:
OK, so we've probably a while away from any Bioshock-type enhancements but given the increasingly efficient and successful surgery for things like hip replacement, I pose this question:

If you could be surgically modified to make your body faster, more durable and stronger than it could ever be naturally, would you take it?

The cost is obviously you become less human.

It depends on the specific circumstances. For example, I wouldn't want to have a clearly visible robotic arm and walk into school tomorrow; the social stigma would outweigh most reasonable gains.

However, with something like hip replacement (although I don't know the specifics) , I might consider it, but only if there were sizeable improvements. Ie. If there's a 5% increase in speed from robotic legs, I wouldn't do it, but if there's a 200% improvement, then I probably would.

I'd be most interested in mental changes and such probably. Also, what about the question of say parents opting for biological enhancements for their children? I know that'll likely be explained away, but it raises some interesting points.
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Meatros
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5/19/2011 7:12:27 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 8:07:08 PM, tvellalott wrote:
OK, so we've probably a while away from any Bioshock-type enhancements but given the increasingly efficient and successful surgery for things like hip replacement, I pose this question:

If you could be surgically modified to make your body faster, more durable and stronger than it could ever be naturally, would you take it?

The cost is obviously you become less human.

Yes, I would.

What is 'human' anyway?

In any event, I take 'coffee' to wake up. I drink alcohol (very occasionally now a days) to alter my mood. I would take insulin if necessary. I would get a heart valve if I needed it.

If they had modifications which made the body better (as opposed to bringing it up to 'normal'), I would still do that.
Meatros
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5/19/2011 7:15:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 8:10:21 PM, Grape wrote:

Assuming there were no other costs, of course I would. You can already do this: it's call steroids. It's not worth the side effects, especially because being stronger, faster, and more durable is generally not that much of an advantage.


Steriods, HGH, hCG, there are plenty of chemicals bodybuilders use (even insulin). As to the side effects, that completely depends. You can manage the sides if you are a typical bodybuilder. You might not have any, if you are on HRT/TRT. Side effects generally come in when you are going overboard on 'natural' levels (say, above 1600 on test).

IIRC, HGH actually decreases your life span, while Test could increase it (if you bring it up to normal).
Indophile
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5/19/2011 9:37:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 8:07:08 PM, tvellalott wrote:
OK, so we've probably a while away from any Bioshock-type enhancements but given the increasingly efficient and successful surgery for things like hip replacement, I pose this question:

If you could be surgically modified to make your body faster, more durable and stronger than it could ever be naturally, would you take it?

The cost is obviously you become less human.

If you take it to the logical extreme, "we" would no longer have a body and be pure energy (or thought). The body is just a cage for the human "spirit", if you think about it. Can't hear below 20Hz and above 20kHz. Can't see infra-red or ultra-violet, limited in speed, in strength, in diet, so on and so forth.

This has already been tackled in science-fiction, so I can't be credited for making this up :)
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popculturepooka
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5/19/2011 9:49:30 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 12:46:52 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Obviously. Bodily continuity has nothing to do with personal identity.

Orly?

http://plato.stanford.edu...

Of course you could reject that account of personal identity (animalism, see: Eric Olson) but what are your reasons for doing so?
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Kinesis
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5/19/2011 10:01:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Who cares if I become less human? I'd much rather be Kinesis Mark II than Kinesis. Assuming, y'know, I wasn't some kind of freakish looking cyborg monstrosity.
Kinesis
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5/19/2011 10:05:46 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 9:49:30 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/19/2011 12:46:52 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Obviously. Bodily continuity has nothing to do with personal identity.

Orly?

http://plato.stanford.edu...

Of course you could reject that account of personal identity (animalism, see: Eric Olson) but what are your reasons for doing so?

Presumably for the reason pointed out in that article: 'it implies that you would stay behind if your cerebrum were transplanted, which can seem incredible'.

I would assume most atheists identify themselves with the pattern of neurons residing in their brain.
popculturepooka
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5/19/2011 10:42:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 10:05:46 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 5/19/2011 9:49:30 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/19/2011 12:46:52 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Obviously. Bodily continuity has nothing to do with personal identity.

Orly?

http://plato.stanford.edu...

Of course you could reject that account of personal identity (animalism, see: Eric Olson) but what are your reasons for doing so?

Presumably for the reason pointed out in that article: 'it implies that you would stay behind if your cerebrum were transplanted, which can seem incredible'.


Psychological continuity (which I think most people intuitively hold to) doesn't do any better in matters of personal identity - in fact, it probably does worse, which is why I asked him why he rejects animalism.

I would assume most atheists identify themselves with the pattern of neurons residing in their brain.

(
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tkubok
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5/19/2011 11:50:07 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 8:36:43 PM, tvellalott wrote:
How so: Well if you consider yourself born 100% human and if you had your leg replaced with a robotic one you would be consider 95% human. I mean you become less human and more cyborg until eventually you would just be a robot.
So what? Exactly. Although I'm quite fond of my legs. There would have to be some super advantages to make me willing to part with them (like running 100kmh or something)

I dont understand how this reasoning works. If im in an accident, and i lose my arm, i dont consider myself only 95% human. Thats such a shallow way of thinking, dont you think? Losing an arm or a limb doesnt make you any less of a human, so why would grafting on a new arm or limb, make you less of a human?
Ore_Ele
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5/19/2011 12:05:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/18/2011 8:07:08 PM, tvellalott wrote:
OK, so we've probably a while away from any Bioshock-type enhancements but given the increasingly efficient and successful surgery for things like hip replacement, I pose this question:

If you could be surgically modified to make your body faster, more durable and stronger than it could ever be naturally, would you take it?

Faster and Stronger? No, live life longer in a healthy and active state? Sure, pending the costs, side effects, and everything else to consider.


The cost is obviously you become less human.

Not really.
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belle
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5/19/2011 1:02:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 10:42:56 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/19/2011 10:05:46 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 5/19/2011 9:49:30 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/19/2011 12:46:52 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Obviously. Bodily continuity has nothing to do with personal identity.

Orly?

http://plato.stanford.edu...

Of course you could reject that account of personal identity (animalism, see: Eric Olson) but what are your reasons for doing so?

Presumably for the reason pointed out in that article: 'it implies that you would stay behind if your cerebrum were transplanted, which can seem incredible'.


Psychological continuity (which I think most people intuitively hold to) doesn't do any better in matters of personal identity - in fact, it probably does worse, which is why I asked him why he rejects animalism.

its obvious that bodily continuity alone cannot account for our intuitions... anyone who gives its a moment's thought can come up with the brain transplant objection. its less obvious that psychological continuity cannot. if it has more problems, its probably because people have spent more time breaking it down, because it has more adherents to begin with. thats not to say that the problems in some sense "don't count" but just to explain why people tend to view it as superior. i think with a causal rider of some kind attached it does a much better job than any sort of bodily account would do.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
OMGJustinBieber
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5/20/2011 6:57:12 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yeah, I don't believe physical enhancements like that would really deprive people of their "humanity." Would I take it if offered? Absolutely. I'm 20 years old, in decent physical condition, and with those enhancements + training I could become a total beast.

IMO, the mind is much more important in terms of preserving humanity than physical enhancements to the body. The much larger question with physical enhancements is, how would these benefits be allocated? If it comes on "you get what you pay for" basis it would be detrimental.
tvellalott
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5/21/2011 8:18:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/19/2011 11:50:07 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/18/2011 8:36:43 PM, tvellalott wrote:
How so: Well if you consider yourself born 100% human and if you had your leg replaced with a robotic one you would be consider 95% human. I mean you become less human and more cyborg until eventually you would just be a robot.
So what? Exactly. Although I'm quite fond of my legs. There would have to be some super advantages to make me willing to part with them (like running 100kmh or something)

I dont understand how this reasoning works. If im in an accident, and i lose my arm, i dont consider myself only 95% human.

P1) The body is sum of it's parts.
P2) A mechanical part is not a human part.
C) If you have a mechanical part, you are not completely human.

Thats such a shallow way of thinking, dont you think? Losing an arm or a limb doesnt make you any less of a human, so why would grafting on a new arm or limb, make you less of a human?

Who cares if it's shallow? That's the reality of it. If you lost an arm, that doesn't affect what percentage of your body is 'original' but if you had the bottom half of your body removed, you're clearly part mechanical. If you have a pace maker, you're clearly part mechanical, though a much smaller percentage.
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Puck
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5/21/2011 9:42:01 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 8:18:58 AM, tvellalott wrote:
P1) The body is sum of it's parts.
P2) A mechanical part is not a human part.
C) If you have a mechanical part, you are not completely human.

Fix yer premises. :P
tvellalott
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5/21/2011 7:51:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 9:42:01 AM, Puck wrote:
At 5/21/2011 8:18:58 AM, tvellalott wrote:
P1) The body is sum of it's parts.
P2) A mechanical part is not a human part.
C) If you have a mechanical part, you are not completely human.

Fix yer premises. :P

What's wrong with them? :O
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Puck
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5/21/2011 8:13:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 7:51:27 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 5/21/2011 9:42:01 AM, Puck wrote:
At 5/21/2011 8:18:58 AM, tvellalott wrote:
P1) The body is sum of it's parts.
P2) A mechanical part is not a human part.
C) If you have a mechanical part, you are not completely human.

Fix yer premises. :P

What's wrong with them? :O

p1 doesn't really work. As it is your syllogism reads as p2>conclusion. Look at the terms used. If you want to use the 'sum of' principle then you need to tie it into the definition of human itself.
tvellalott
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5/21/2011 8:29:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 8:13:49 PM, Puck wrote:
At 5/21/2011 7:51:27 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 5/21/2011 9:42:01 AM, Puck wrote:
At 5/21/2011 8:18:58 AM, tvellalott wrote:
P1) The body is sum of it's parts.
P2) A mechanical part is not a human part.
C) If you have a mechanical part, you are not completely human.

Fix yer premises. :P

What's wrong with them? :O

p1 doesn't really work. As it is your syllogism reads as p2>conclusion. Look at the terms used. If you want to use the 'sum of' principle then you need to tie it into the definition of human itself.

God damn it Puck. Stop being so smart all the time.
What about...
P1) The whole is the sum of it's parts.
P2) Mechanical parts cannot be described as human.
P3) Mechanical parts are part of the whole.
C) If you have mechanical parts, you are not wholly human.
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CosmicAlfonzo
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5/21/2011 8:31:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Personally, I think it would be kick @ss to be a cyborg.. If not just because cyborg is a cool sounding name.

Cyborg Alfonzo. Has a ring to it.
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Puck
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5/21/2011 9:02:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 8:29:20 PM, tvellalott wrote:
What about...
P1) The whole is the sum of it's parts.
P2) Mechanical parts cannot be described as human.
P3) Mechanical parts are part of the whole.
C) If you have mechanical parts, you are not wholly human.

p2 is begging the question with C and p3 is awkward and isn't really doing anything in there (plus it makes 4 premises so no). You need to either 'p 1,2 > 3, 4, from 3,4 > C or something like that or try and make it a 2 premise > conclusion syllogism.

As I see it you need to develop:

Being human is defined as additive biological parts
Mechanical isn't biological
Mechanical parts can't be defined as human
Mechanical parts on a human are subtractive
tvellalott
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5/21/2011 9:04:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 9:02:37 PM, Puck wrote:
At 5/21/2011 8:29:20 PM, tvellalott wrote:
What about...
P1) The whole is the sum of it's parts.
P2) Mechanical parts cannot be described as human.
P3) Mechanical parts are part of the whole.
C) If you have mechanical parts, you are not wholly human.

p2 is begging the question with C and p3 is awkward and isn't really doing anything in there (plus it makes 4 premises so no). You need to either 'p 1,2 > 3, 4, from 3,4 > C or something like that or try and make it a 2 premise > conclusion syllogism.

As I see it you need to develop:

Being human is defined as additive biological parts
Mechanical isn't biological
Mechanical parts can't be defined as human
Mechanical parts on a human are subtractive

Do you think my conclusion is false?
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Puck
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5/21/2011 9:18:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/21/2011 9:04:30 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Do you think my conclusion is false?

I don't think that's relevant to your attempt to make a valid syllogism with it as the conclusion. A sound syllogism is altogether a different thing.
belle
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5/22/2011 12:19:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
if something is an organism, it is made up entirely of biological parts
if something is human, then it is an organism
therefore if something is human, it is made up entirely of biological parts

then a second syllogism based on that...

if something has at least one mechanical part, then it is not made up entirely of biological parts
if something is not made up entirely of biological parts, then it is not human
therefore if something has at least one mechanical part, it is not human.

huzzah. of course the syllogism would be fairly easy to defeat since i don't think anyone would argue that someone with a filling in their tooth is not fully human. but it was fun to write anyhow.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
tvellalott
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5/22/2011 4:51:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/22/2011 12:19:51 AM, belle wrote:
if something is an organism, it is made up entirely of biological parts
if something is human, then it is an organism
therefore if something is human, it is made up entirely of biological parts

then a second syllogism based on that...

if something has at least one mechanical part, then it is not made up entirely of biological parts
if something is not made up entirely of biological parts, then it is not entirely human
therefore if something has at least one mechanical part, it is not entirely human.

huzzah. of course the syllogism would be fairly easy to defeat since i don't think anyone would argue that someone with a filling in their tooth is not fully human. but it was fun to write anyhow.

Thanks, that's actually pretty good. I think adding "entirely" makes it less precise but less likely to get pawned. I also wouldn't call a filling a 'mechanical part'. :P
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