Total Posts:71|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Global Warming

seraine
Posts: 734
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/23/2011 10:51:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I just changed my stance on global warming to con after reading the first couple chapters of Ian Plimer's book Heaven and Earth, which offers a good attack on global warming. It basically says that Co2 is one of many factors and it is folly to assume that Co2 causes global warming (at least as far as I have read). However, many people seem to say that the book is badly sourced and flawed.

I am leaning con on global warming, but need more info and still am not sure on anything. In particular, what is the main evidence for global warming and what are your feelings on it? I am really hoping for RoyLatham's and some adamant global warming advocate's feelings.
Lasagna
Posts: 2,440
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2011 12:26:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Just stay tuned to Roy and my debate on the subject. There won't be much left to say after that. He's experiencing some technical difficulties with it at the moment and cannot get the resolution changed...
Rob
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2011 1:01:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I am leaning con on global warming, but need more info and still am not sure on anything. In particular, what is the main evidence for global warming and what are your feelings on it?:

There is ample evidence that the earth is experiencing a warming trend. That's a fact. But as is so often the case, correlation is not causation. What isn't a fact is that global warming is anthropogenically related. The entire theory relies on misinformation and fudging data to conform to such a notion.

Going "Green" is big business. And these snakes, like the Profit (oh, 'scuse me, Prophet) Al Gore, he's amassed a fortune by pimping out Mother Nature.

From everything I understand of the issue, having evaluated both sides of the argument, is that the earth has gone through many hot and cold periods, perennially fluctuating in normal, cyclical pattern.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
seraine
Posts: 734
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/24/2011 10:22:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/24/2011 1:01:47 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I am leaning con on global warming, but need more info and still am not sure on anything. In particular, what is the main evidence for global warming and what are your feelings on it?:

There is ample evidence that the earth is experiencing a warming trend. That's a fact. But as is so often the case, correlation is not causation. What isn't a fact is that global warming is anthropogenically related. The entire theory relies on misinformation and fudging data to conform to such a notion.

Going "Green" is big business. And these snakes, like the Profit (oh, 'scuse me, Prophet) Al Gore, he's amassed a fortune by pimping out Mother Nature.

From everything I understand of the issue, having evaluated both sides of the argument, is that the earth has gone through many hot and cold periods, perennially fluctuating in normal, cyclical pattern.

Yes, this is why I'm mainly leaning con (though without much of the emphasis on the profit motive). I'm still worried though, though I'm not sure why. Another interesting thing is that in Heaven and Earth, Plimer successfully shows that global warming is a good thing.
Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 1:18:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The world has reached the consensus it exists, the question now is whether its man-made.

To me, its a mix.

See: The fate of the inhabitants of Easter Island.
inferno
Posts: 10,628
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 7:58:37 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think that because the ice is melting in both the South and North poles is proof
that global warming is real. Not to mention to hole in the ozone layer that has
gotten bigger through time. Who caused that ? Oh I know. WE DID !
seraine
Posts: 734
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 10:39:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/25/2011 7:58:37 AM, inferno wrote:
I think that because the ice is melting in both the South and North poles is proof
that global warming is real. Not to mention to hole in the ozone layer that has
gotten bigger through time. Who caused that ? Oh I know. WE DID !

Evidence?
seraine
Posts: 734
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 10:40:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/25/2011 7:58:37 AM, inferno wrote:
I think that because the ice is melting in both the South and North poles is proof
that global warming is real. Not to mention to hole in the ozone layer that has
gotten bigger through time. Who caused that ? Oh I know. WE DID !

Can you show me any evidence?
seraine
Posts: 734
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 10:40:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
What the heck!? For some reason, I do my evidence post but it says it's not unique enough. I add more letters and now there's two.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 11:51:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/25/2011 10:40:56 AM, seraine wrote:
What the heck!? For some reason, I do my evidence post but it says it's not unique enough. I add more letters and now there's two.

You must have clicked it twice. The first one posted correctly. The second one, being the same as your previous post, was declared to be not unique because it recognized it as a double post. You then posted again.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
inferno
Posts: 10,628
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 2:36:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Guys. There is a hole in the ozone layer. You have major flooding going on in places
where it has NEVER happened before. Snow, dust storms, larger than normal tornadoes, earthquakes, and scorching heat with record highs. Note the word 'record'. That means that something is going on here.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 3:01:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/25/2011 2:36:13 PM, inferno wrote:
Guys. There is a hole in the ozone layer. You have major flooding going on in places
where it has NEVER happened before. Snow, dust storms, larger than normal tornadoes, earthquakes, and scorching heat with record highs. Note the word 'record'. That means that something is going on here.

The hole in the ozone is actually getting smaller.

http://www.treehugger.com...
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
inferno
Posts: 10,628
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 3:03:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ore Ele. We have seen more record heat on this country in places unheard of before.
The sun 'feels' hotter. And it is because we are now getting a multitude rays penetrating this
atmosphere that were never here before. That is a fact.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 3:14:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/25/2011 3:02:23 PM, inferno wrote:
Ore Ele. Where did you get that one ? From NASA. LOL

No, from a site that would likely be the last to admit the hole was getting smaller. You can find similar at NASA or pretty much anyone that tracks the Ozone hole. It has been getting smaller year by yaer for the last several.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 3:21:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/25/2011 3:03:54 PM, inferno wrote:
Ore Ele. We have seen more record heat on this country in places unheard of before.
The sun 'feels' hotter. And it is because we are now getting a multitude rays penetrating this
atmosphere that were never here before. That is a fact.

That's called a spot lighting fallacy. The only way to make scientific claims, is based on a global trend, not individal anecdotal stories. After the trend has been established, a series of scientific theories should be laid out to explain that trend, then they should be tested, both logically, and scientifically (when possible) to see which theory is correct.

As for your "more sun rays are hitting the earth" this is not a surviving theory, as if it was true, solar panels would become more effective as more light is available.

Insolation is a starndard cycle (about every 10 years) and it isn't changing much.

http://www.google.com...

Though for global warming, we should expect the next few years to get hotter and hotter, while the 6 or so years after that to remain flat line, or even cool a bit, before the next several year heat wave.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
inferno
Posts: 10,628
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 3:23:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
ORE ELE. That is false. Did you know that the molecules from CFC's an take about
100 years just to break down ? Think about the old air conditioners and cars
still be using today from the 1980's and mid 90's. The ozone has depleted greatly
and is thinning out. The damage has been done. Forest fire smoke, gases, nuclear plants, oil fumes, and pollution are all causing this to happen even as we speak.
This is part of the reason why the ice on the Poles are melting at an even faster
rate than before. The water is predicted to be completely gone between 2050 and
2065. It may seem like a long time from now. But think about the catastrophe
that lies ahead for the next generation. It was all done by man. And this is the
cross that we must bear.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 3:28:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/25/2011 3:23:28 PM, inferno wrote:
ORE ELE. That is false. Did you know that the molecules from CFC's an take about
100 years just to break down ? Think about the old air conditioners and cars
still be using today from the 1980's and mid 90's. The ozone has depleted greatly
and is thinning out. The damage has been done. Forest fire smoke, gases, nuclear plants, oil fumes, and pollution are all causing this to happen even as we speak.
This is part of the reason why the ice on the Poles are melting at an even faster
rate than before. The water is predicted to be completely gone between 2050 and
2065. It may seem like a long time from now. But think about the catastrophe
that lies ahead for the next generation. It was all done by man. And this is the
cross that we must bear.

care to do an actual debate on this?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
inferno
Posts: 10,628
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 3:42:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
No. I hate when you DDO intellectuals try to thwart out the truth with secular propaganda. It will not work this time. Common sense prevails again.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 3:52:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/25/2011 3:42:17 PM, inferno wrote:
No. I hate when you DDO intellectuals try to thwart out the truth with secular propaganda. It will not work this time. Common sense prevails again.

Didn't think so. Good luck with your propaganda.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 4:01:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/25/2011 3:54:52 PM, inferno wrote:
Ore Ele. Try telling this one to the people up North. Good luck.

The hole in the ozone is mostly over the South Pole, the hole over the north pole barely reaches any portion of Canada, and the portion that it does reach has almost no population of people, let alone concern for solar radiation.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
inferno
Posts: 10,628
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 4:05:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ore. Must we be so naive. The Earth is getting warmer for many many reasons
that I dont care to get into now. It is a done deal. The elites have destroyed this
world. It is only a matter of time now. There is more to come. The ozone will be
the LEAST of your worries.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/25/2011 4:13:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/25/2011 4:05:54 PM, inferno wrote:
Ore. Must we be so naive. The Earth is getting warmer for many many reasons
that I dont care to get into now. It is a done deal. The elites have destroyed this
world. It is only a matter of time now. There is more to come. The ozone will be
the LEAST of your worries.

...so the world has been destroyed. Funny, it looks remarkibly similiar to before it was destroyed.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/27/2011 5:32:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/25/2011 4:16:10 PM, inferno wrote:
Ore Ele. Sorry. You must not live underwater. Try again. =)

The alarmists at the UN claim that in the next hundred years sea level will rise by about nine inches. That was in the most recent IPCC report. Raising the temperature of Antarctica from -45 to -40 doesn't cause melting. The Pacifc Decadal Oscillation causes Arctic melting is about a 60 year cycle: 1880s, 1930s, and 2000.

The period about 5000 years ago, called the Holocene Optimum, was when the great civilizations in Asia began. That period was considerably warmer than now, warmer than even the Medieval Warm Period.
seraine
Posts: 734
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2011 10:59:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/25/2011 3:28:31 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 7/25/2011 3:23:28 PM, inferno wrote:
ORE ELE. That is false. Did you know that the molecules from CFC's an take about
100 years just to break down ? Think about the old air conditioners and cars
still be using today from the 1980's and mid 90's. The ozone has depleted greatly
and is thinning out. The damage has been done. Forest fire smoke, gases, nuclear plants, oil fumes, and pollution are all causing this to happen even as we speak.
This is part of the reason why the ice on the Poles are melting at an even faster
rate than before. The water is predicted to be completely gone between 2050 and
2065. It may seem like a long time from now. But think about the catastrophe
that lies ahead for the next generation. It was all done by man. And this is the
cross that we must bear.

care to do an actual debate on this?

OMG that was hilarious.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/1/2011 8:34:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 7/25/2011 3:54:52 PM, inferno wrote:
Ore Ele. Try telling this one to the people up North. Good luck.

Your claims of it "never happened before" are false. "Never" usually means "since formal records have been kept." That amounts to a few hundred years at most. If you look a paleoclimatology reconstructions, even the averages in past times exceed what are now the extremes. For example, for much of the time when life evolved, the global average temperature was 22 C. Now it's about 14 C, and te claim is that the world would end if it got to, say, 17 C.

Another problem is in the nature of statistics. A "500 year storm" is a storm in certain place that produces more rainfall than any storm likely to be observed in less than 500 years. So a 500 year storm in a desert might be an inch of rain in a day. In a tropical area it might be 30 inches in a day. Extremes are also observed in high and low temperatures, droughts, winds, days of heat, days of cold, and so forth -- maybe a dozen items of interest. So if you watch the news, how often will a 500 year even be reported? If the news covers 500 reporting locations, you can expect an average of one per month.

Things claimed unique are often not. A good example is the ocean ice melting in the Arctic. That happens in a roughly 60 year cycle called the Pacific Decadal Oscillation. It now seems to be refreezing after the recent melt. Previous melts were about 1940 and 1880. It takes a lot of work to establish the history.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas, so it causes some warming. How much it is among the many factors we don't know.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/2/2011 1:17:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/1/2011 8:34:24 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 7/25/2011 3:54:52 PM, inferno wrote:
Ore Ele. Try telling this one to the people up North. Good luck.

Your claims of it "never happened before" are false. "Never" usually means "since formal records have been kept." That amounts to a few hundred years at most. If you look a paleoclimatology reconstructions, even the averages in past times exceed what are now the extremes. For example, for much of the time when life evolved, the global average temperature was 22 C. Now it's about 14 C, and te claim is that the world would end if it got to, say, 17 C.

That's an exaggeration. No one claims that the world will end (or if they do, they are using a simplified phrase), they are claiming that the world as we know it will end.

The climate back in those days was very different, not suitable for many of the living things we have now (likewise, many of the living things back then would die out in today's climate).


Another problem is in the nature of statistics. A "500 year storm" is a storm in certain place that produces more rainfall than any storm likely to be observed in less than 500 years. So a 500 year storm in a desert might be an inch of rain in a day. In a tropical area it might be 30 inches in a day. Extremes are also observed in high and low temperatures, droughts, winds, days of heat, days of cold, and so forth -- maybe a dozen items of interest. So if you watch the news, how often will a 500 year even be reported? If the news covers 500 reporting locations, you can expect an average of one per month.

Well, 1 per year, but the point is understood. However, there should be noted a difference between the alarmist/activists and the actual scientists.


Things claimed unique are often not. A good example is the ocean ice melting in the Arctic. That happens in a roughly 60 year cycle called the Pacific Decadal Oscillation. It now seems to be refreezing after the recent melt. Previous melts were about 1940 and 1880. It takes a lot of work to establish the history.

You actually have that backwards.

http://jisao.washington.edu...

In the "warm phase" (which occured in 1880, 1940, and around 1990), the northern waters actually get colder, while the tropical water (around HI) gets warmer (as well as the Alaskan coast for some reason). In the "cool phase" the Arctic actually gets warmer (while Alaska and the tropics get cooler).

Temperatures can vary as much as 1.5 degrees C.

And in 2010, we are starting to enter a cool phase, which means the Arctic is actually going to get warmer.


CO2 is a greenhouse gas, so it causes some warming. How much it is among the many factors we don't know.

Does that really matter? If someone is sick and their drinking drain cleaner, among a number of other things, do you say "well, we don't know whether the draino is actually the cause or just a minor factor, so go ahead and keep drinking it while we think about this more."
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"