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Terra Forming Venus

Ore_Ele
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8/19/2011 1:09:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
For now, let's ignore cost and focus on scientific possibility.

We've probably already heard about what is needed to terra form Mars and what not, but what about Venus?

Here are the important things that need to be addressed, though some actions will take care of multiple issues.

1) Tempurate

2) Atmospheric Pressure

3) Rotational Speed

4) Lack of magnetic field

Any others?
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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/19/2011 1:30:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Bah you can keep Venus with it's damnable Lizardman and the constant machinations of the Prussians!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ore_Ele
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8/19/2011 1:32:26 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 1:30:41 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Bah you can keep Venus with it's damnable Lizardman and the constant machinations of the Prussians!

From my experiements, while lizards do enjoy warmer tempuratures, they don't enjoy having sulfuric acid sprayed on them. And I've tested this on a sizable population so that I can safely say it is concluded.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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8/19/2011 1:41:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 1:09:08 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
For now, let's ignore cost and focus on scientific possibility.

We've probably already heard about what is needed to terra form Mars and what not, but what about Venus?

Here are the important things that need to be addressed, though some actions will take care of multiple issues.

1) Tempurate

2) Atmospheric Pressure

3) Rotational Speed

4) Lack of magnetic field

Any others?

What's up with the rotational speed? Why you want to change that?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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8/19/2011 1:43:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yea surely temperature, gravity, air pressure, atmosphere are the key factors?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ore_Ele
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8/19/2011 1:43:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 1:41:20 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:09:08 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
For now, let's ignore cost and focus on scientific possibility.

We've probably already heard about what is needed to terra form Mars and what not, but what about Venus?

Here are the important things that need to be addressed, though some actions will take care of multiple issues.

1) Tempurate

2) Atmospheric Pressure

3) Rotational Speed

4) Lack of magnetic field

Any others?

What's up with the rotational speed? Why you want to change that?

By having days and nights too long, you create a massive temp difference between night and day. To the point where any oceans would boil during the day and freeze over during the night. This would also have a massive effect on potential life, since any life would have to be able to withstand such great temp swings daily.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/19/2011 1:46:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 1:43:15 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:41:20 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:09:08 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
For now, let's ignore cost and focus on scientific possibility.

We've probably already heard about what is needed to terra form Mars and what not, but what about Venus?

Here are the important things that need to be addressed, though some actions will take care of multiple issues.

1) Tempurate

2) Atmospheric Pressure

3) Rotational Speed

4) Lack of magnetic field

Any others?

What's up with the rotational speed? Why you want to change that?

By having days and nights too long, you create a massive temp difference between night and day. To the point where any oceans would boil during the day and freeze over during the night. This would also have a massive effect on potential life, since any life would have to be able to withstand such great temp swings daily.

I see, how would we change rotational speed?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Indophile
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8/19/2011 1:46:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 1:43:15 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:41:20 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:09:08 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
For now, let's ignore cost and focus on scientific possibility.

We've probably already heard about what is needed to terra form Mars and what not, but what about Venus?

Here are the important things that need to be addressed, though some actions will take care of multiple issues.

1) Tempurate

2) Atmospheric Pressure

3) Rotational Speed

4) Lack of magnetic field

Any others?

What's up with the rotational speed? Why you want to change that?

By having days and nights too long, you create a massive temp difference between night and day. To the point where any oceans would boil during the day and freeze over during the night. This would also have a massive effect on potential life, since any life would have to be able to withstand such great temp swings daily.

Wouldn't channeling the heat be easier than changing the rotation of the entire planet?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Lickdafoot
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8/19/2011 1:49:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 1:41:20 PM, Indophile wrote:
What's up with the rotational speed? Why you want to change that?

well the rotation of venus is very slow (although it goes around the sun very fast.) so if one side of venus was not getting sunlight for too long, it would hinder the growth of life.

we would need to get some sort of makeshift moon to orbit around venus.

another question im coming up with is- how would humans be effected by the gravitational change? this could alter the growth of our bones and make us more malleable.

we would first need to fix the problem of no magetic field, because then the solar winds will mess up any attempts to make the atmosphere more liveable.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
Ore_Ele
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8/19/2011 1:59:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Regarding the Atmosphere, most of it can be solved through cleaning up the CO2.

The atmosphere is held by nothing but gravity, and the only reason such a massive atmophere doesn't get blown away is not because there is huge gravity, but because it is made of heavier particles.

It is 96.5% CO2 (which is about 28% heavier than O2). Because it is heavier, more can be held by gravity.

The Atmosphere is currently 4.8e20 kg (almost 100 times as massive as our Earth's Atmosphere). 4.632e20 kg is CO2. If plant life were to convert (or a series of machines) that into O2, we'd be left with 3.367e20 kg of O2 and 1.265e20 kg of Carbon. All that carbon and be buried (so it is not released back into the carbon cycle) and in several million years, future inhabitents can fight wars over the oil that it will turn into.

This leaves us with the O2. If we release 1.6% back into the air, we can turn the rest into water.

That will turn our atmosphere into 70% N2 and 28% O2 (the sulfuric acid will fall out of the atmosphere and stay on the ground, making it easier to clean up). This compared to our current 78% N2 and 20% O2 of Earth. We would still find that the atmosphere is 2.24e19 kg (or 5 times the size of Earth's but that is better than the 100 times).

This will also yield 3.725e20 kg of water, which is about 25% as much water as on Earth. The only thing we would need to import would be the Hydrogen (though there is some in the sulfuric acid, not nearly enough).

The best place to get Hydrogen is from Jupiter. This is because, 1) Jupiter massive amounts of Hydrogen at the surface of its atmosphere, so we don't need to dig for it. 2) it is the closest of the gas giants. 3) We need to visit it for something else that Venus needs... a moon (to solve the rotational issues).
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/19/2011 2:02:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 1:46:54 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:43:15 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:41:20 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:09:08 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
For now, let's ignore cost and focus on scientific possibility.

We've probably already heard about what is needed to terra form Mars and what not, but what about Venus?

Here are the important things that need to be addressed, though some actions will take care of multiple issues.

1) Tempurate

2) Atmospheric Pressure

3) Rotational Speed

4) Lack of magnetic field

Any others?

What's up with the rotational speed? Why you want to change that?

By having days and nights too long, you create a massive temp difference between night and day. To the point where any oceans would boil during the day and freeze over during the night. This would also have a massive effect on potential life, since any life would have to be able to withstand such great temp swings daily.

Wouldn't channeling the heat be easier than changing the rotation of the entire planet?

No, the atmosphere currently naturally channels heat (as fluid bodies tend to do when one side is warm and the other is not), and it generates winds of 200+ miles per hour as constant winds. These winds only present additional problems with getting the planet to sustain life (though wind power must be awesomely effective there).
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Ore_Ele
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8/19/2011 2:09:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 1:49:43 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:41:20 PM, Indophile wrote:
What's up with the rotational speed? Why you want to change that?

well the rotation of venus is very slow (although it goes around the sun very fast.) so if one side of venus was not getting sunlight for too long, it would hinder the growth of life.

we would need to get some sort of makeshift moon to orbit around venus.

Enter Ceres or Europa (most go with Europa, though Ceres is closer and would take less energy to move). I prefer Europa because Jupiter ain't using it for anything and I'd like to liberate it.


another question im coming up with is- how would humans be effected by the gravitational change? this could alter the growth of our bones and make us more malleable.

we would first need to fix the problem of no magetic field, because then the solar winds will mess up any attempts to make the atmosphere more liveable.

Actually, the solar winds will effect so slowly, that we'd have plenty of time. In the calculation of my other post, after making the atmosphere a good O2 and N2 concentration, it is still about 5 times heavier than Earth's. The solar wind is the perfect solution to slowly widdle that away.

The way to really get the magnetic field up and running is by restarting Venus' techtonic plates. In order to do that, we must try to understand why they stopped in the first place. From Venus's volcano activity, the core and mantle clearly have enough heat.

It is believe that the crust simply became too hard to maintain the plate movement. Bring water back into this should soften the plates and allow them to kick back on, as well as allowing the core to reactivate (also, bring in a moon through gravitational capture will cause core rotation as well).
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Lickdafoot
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8/19/2011 2:19:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 2:09:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Enter Ceres or Europa (most go with Europa, though Ceres is closer and would take less energy to move). I prefer Europa because Jupiter ain't using it for anything and I'd like to liberate it.

what about an asteroid? would that work?

we could potentially f something up for another planet if we try stealing their moon.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
Indophile
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8/19/2011 2:20:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 2:09:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:49:43 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:41:20 PM, Indophile wrote:
What's up with the rotational speed? Why you want to change that?

well the rotation of venus is very slow (although it goes around the sun very fast.) so if one side of venus was not getting sunlight for too long, it would hinder the growth of life.

we would need to get some sort of makeshift moon to orbit around venus.

Enter Ceres or Europa (most go with Europa, though Ceres is closer and would take less energy to move). I prefer Europa because Jupiter ain't using it for anything and I'd like to liberate it.

You could as well ferry Mercury and be done with it, if you are going to ferry Europa from the clutches of that monster.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Lickdafoot
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8/19/2011 2:21:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 2:19:59 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
we could potentially f something up for another planet if we try stealing their moon.

haha i just realized the irony of that statement in a thread about how to turn venus into earth 2.0
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
Ore_Ele
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8/19/2011 2:24:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 2:20:08 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/19/2011 2:09:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:49:43 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:41:20 PM, Indophile wrote:
What's up with the rotational speed? Why you want to change that?

well the rotation of venus is very slow (although it goes around the sun very fast.) so if one side of venus was not getting sunlight for too long, it would hinder the growth of life.

we would need to get some sort of makeshift moon to orbit around venus.

Enter Ceres or Europa (most go with Europa, though Ceres is closer and would take less energy to move). I prefer Europa because Jupiter ain't using it for anything and I'd like to liberate it.

You could as well ferry Mercury and be done with it, if you are going to ferry Europa from the clutches of that monster.


True, but Europa has water on it (believed, not proven), meaning we could colonize both Venus and Europa at the same time just by moving it. Though Mercury could be mined for its heavy metals as resources (likely going to become very important for space travel).
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Ore_Ele
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8/19/2011 2:25:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 2:21:10 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 8/19/2011 2:19:59 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
we could potentially f something up for another planet if we try stealing their moon.

haha i just realized the irony of that statement in a thread about how to turn venus into earth 2.0

lol, but truely we should always be considerate of unintended consequences. It won't really effect Jupiter, but it might effect the other moons.
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Lasagna
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8/19/2011 2:27:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
A person standing on Venus would be simultaneously scorched by sulfuric acid, crushed by the weight of the atmosphere, and cooked by the high temperature. There's no way we could fix all of that; we can't even keep the perfect planet we already have in working order.

The only way to speed up the orbit is to crash a large meteor into the planet, assuming that we someday find a powerful enough energy source to move something that large. An impact powerful enough to speed up its rotation would only add to the problem of excess heat, however.

I think the best way to change the chemistry would be to use micro-organisms, but I don't know how!
Rob
Lickdafoot
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8/19/2011 2:30:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 2:24:02 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
True, but Europa has water on it (believed, not proven), meaning we could colonize both Venus and Europa at the same time just by moving it. Though Mercury could be mined for its heavy metals as resources (likely going to become very important for space travel).

the sun would warm europa's ice up, and underneath a bunch of crazed vampire water creatures would come out, eat us all off of venus, and take it over themselves.

how would we move a moon?
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
Indophile
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8/19/2011 2:31:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 2:24:02 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/19/2011 2:20:08 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/19/2011 2:09:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:49:43 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:41:20 PM, Indophile wrote:
What's up with the rotational speed? Why you want to change that?

well the rotation of venus is very slow (although it goes around the sun very fast.) so if one side of venus was not getting sunlight for too long, it would hinder the growth of life.

we would need to get some sort of makeshift moon to orbit around venus.

Enter Ceres or Europa (most go with Europa, though Ceres is closer and would take less energy to move). I prefer Europa because Jupiter ain't using it for anything and I'd like to liberate it.

You could as well ferry Mercury and be done with it, if you are going to ferry Europa from the clutches of that monster.


True, but Europa has water on it (believed, not proven), meaning we could colonize both Venus and Europa at the same time just by moving it. Though Mercury could be mined for its heavy metals as resources (likely going to become very important for space travel).

But wouldn't the hypothesized water on Europa be evaporated if brought so near to the sun?

I don't know if you read the book 2010, but there the Jupiter is exploded to become a sun itself, thus freeing Europa's water.

To make Jupiter a sun in its own right, you just need to put more mass into it. I don't exactly know how much more mass it needs, but it's a thought.
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Ore_Ele
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8/19/2011 2:33:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
All in all, when completed, we'll have a planet, with a gravity about 85% that of Earth (much better than Mars would be able to see). It would be closer in temp than Mars would reach (though it would be on the hotter side than on the colder side).

An atmosphere similar in size to our own (Mars would be much thinner, like being in an unpressurized air plane), to allow us to actually walk the planet naked (every true scientist's dream is to walk another planet naked and hopefully score some tail [1])

Being a larger planet, it would have more resources (espeically heavier elements, as they form on planets closer to the center of solar systems).

And being closer to the sun would allow for more efficient use of solar panels as energy sources (since there is no oil), and there is going to be more nuclear material for power.

[1] Startrek
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Ore_Ele
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8/19/2011 2:37:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 2:31:00 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/19/2011 2:24:02 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/19/2011 2:20:08 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 8/19/2011 2:09:07 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:49:43 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 8/19/2011 1:41:20 PM, Indophile wrote:
What's up with the rotational speed? Why you want to change that?

well the rotation of venus is very slow (although it goes around the sun very fast.) so if one side of venus was not getting sunlight for too long, it would hinder the growth of life.

we would need to get some sort of makeshift moon to orbit around venus.

Enter Ceres or Europa (most go with Europa, though Ceres is closer and would take less energy to move). I prefer Europa because Jupiter ain't using it for anything and I'd like to liberate it.

You could as well ferry Mercury and be done with it, if you are going to ferry Europa from the clutches of that monster.


True, but Europa has water on it (believed, not proven), meaning we could colonize both Venus and Europa at the same time just by moving it. Though Mercury could be mined for its heavy metals as resources (likely going to become very important for space travel).

But wouldn't the hypothesized water on Europa be evaporated if brought so near to the sun?

Derp (on myself), Europa, while it wouldn't get hot enough to boil the water normally, would need an atmosphere as well to keep the water. Since water boils at lower temps based on atmosphere conditions.


I don't know if you read the book 2010, but there the Jupiter is exploded to become a sun itself, thus freeing Europa's water.

To make Jupiter a sun in its own right, you just need to put more mass into it. I don't exactly know how much more mass it needs, but it's a thought.

Have not read that. But yes, Jupiter could potentially become another star, but it would actually need a lot more mass (since it already has a lot of He in it. If it was pure Hydrogen, then it would likely be close)
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Ore_Ele
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8/19/2011 2:42:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 8/19/2011 2:27:06 PM, Lasagna wrote:
A person standing on Venus would be simultaneously scorched by sulfuric acid, crushed by the weight of the atmosphere, and cooked by the high temperature. There's no way we could fix all of that; we can't even keep the perfect planet we already have in working order.

Actually the sulfuric acid is only in the upper atmosphere, it is not along the surface (since when it rains sulfuric acid, the rain actually re-evaporates before reaching the ground).


The only way to speed up the orbit is to crash a large meteor into the planet, assuming that we someday find a powerful enough energy source to move something that large. An impact powerful enough to speed up its rotation would only add to the problem of excess heat, however.

Actually, bringing in a large asteroid (or other massive object) into orbit can increase the rotation rate. We are seeing the same thing with our moon, as it slowly leaves us, we are actually slowing down (we use to spin at 1 days = 7 hours when the moon first formed).


I think the best way to change the chemistry would be to use micro-organisms, but I don't know how!

Similar to how I said, you can use planktin or various other plant based life (anything that turns CO2 into O2) to convert the CO2 into O2 (and use imported Hydrogen to turn the O2 into H2O).
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Ore_Ele
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8/19/2011 4:00:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Though it might be best to bring in the moon first. That will speed up rotation of Venus, and allow a storage location for the Hydrogen before actually getting involved on the surface.

Because you'll need a lot of hydrogen, but you'll want it slowly, not all at once.

Once the moon is in place and most of your hydrogen is stored there, you only need to dot the surface with geo-domes (which are pressure and tempurature insulated) which pull out massive amounts of CO2, and make O2 (and then you use Hydrogen to make that into H2O, which is why you need a stead supply). As plants grow, you destroy them use them to make organic compounds for soil and what not and grow more plants. You then just keep repeating and repeating.

The excess water and organic waste softens the ground and eventually allows techtonic life to start back up. And the thinning of the atmosphere allows pressures and tempuratures to become more workable.
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Lasagna
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8/21/2011 3:46:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So would we use some sort of nuclear power to get a moon out of orbit? It would take decades if not centuries of travel, unimaginable amounts of energy, and an as-of-yet undeveloped technological means of applying said energy to the body to move it.
Rob