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Fused Chromosome 2

Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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2/18/2012 6:55:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This video is great proof for evolution.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/18/2012 7:40:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous what IDers come up for this one.

"Oh, you know, God got bored so he took the code you find at the end of chromosomes (telomers), and stuffed two sets of non-coding telomers in the middle of the chromosome separating two lines of nucleotides that, by coincidence, are nearly perfect analogs to the ends of two chimp chromosomes if they were fused together."

I'm sure this will be called a coincidence or simply evidence for ID because only God could break the chromosomes apart and have the human offspring live (false).

Couldn't be evidence for common descent between humans and chimps.
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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2/20/2012 9:53:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/18/2012 7:40:13 PM, Wnope wrote:
Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous what IDers come up for this one.

"Oh, you know, God got bored so he took the code you find at the end of chromosomes (telomers), and stuffed two sets of non-coding telomers in the middle of the chromosome separating two lines of nucleotides that, by coincidence, are nearly perfect analogs to the ends of two chimp chromosomes if they were fused together."

I'm sure this will be called a coincidence or simply evidence for ID because only God could break the chromosomes apart and have the human offspring live (false).

Couldn't be evidence for common descent between humans and chimps.

Yup. I agree--so much ad hoc from them. No wonder people laugh at creationists!
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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2/20/2012 1:09:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I often laugh at creationists but am very disturbed at how pervasive a creationist belief is among the masses....
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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2/21/2012 6:34:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/20/2012 2:31:14 PM, Wnope wrote:
Yeah, it is kinda sad. Even in DDO, people like Gileandros would probably defend the idea that an ID can explain it.

Right. Gileandros has no argument against the science of evolution.

http://www.talkorigins.org...
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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2/24/2012 1:24:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The point of the video is evolution is a real science not this is "great proof for evolution"

This isn't proof, simply evidence that suggests evolution was the case in hominin species and that all members of the homoinin tribe were created in each other's likeness.

To prove evolution, as you use it now, one must observe the instance where one organism of a species (eg. homo erectus) produces a healthy fertile offspring from a new species (eg. homo sapiens). The child may be a ring species but the locii of mutation has to also be observed as different in parent and child.

When this, and only this, is done can it be said that man evolved from ape as truthfully as it is said apples grow from trees.

As it is now one may present the semblance and diversity in creation argument as a contention and say: "prove me wrong", which as it stands is impossible.

Lastly, from the video: "In fact it [proto-human] very likely would have been indistinguishable from other members of the population."

Somebody don't know about human aneuploidy. Men with 47 Chromosomes, Klinefelter's syndrome, are disfigured, disabled and almost always infertile (although surgery sometimes helps). There is no way in hell they successfully competed against healthy males of the other species.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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2/24/2012 4:34:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 1:24:01 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
The point of the video is evolution is a real science not this is "great proof for evolution"

This isn't proof, simply evidence that suggests evolution was the case in hominin species and that all members of the homoinin tribe were created in each other's likeness.

To prove evolution, as you use it now, one must observe the instance where one organism of a species (eg. homo erectus) produces a healthy fertile offspring from a new species (eg. homo sapiens). The child may be a ring species but the locii of mutation has to also be observed as different in parent and child.

When this, and only this, is done can it be said that man evolved from ape as truthfully as it is said apples grow from trees.

As it is now one may present the semblance and diversity in creation argument as a contention and say: "prove me wrong", which as it stands is impossible.

Lastly, from the video: "In fact it [proto-human] very likely would have been indistinguishable from other members of the population."

Somebody don't know about human aneuploidy. Men with 47 Chromosomes, Klinefelter's syndrome, are disfigured, disabled and almost always infertile (although surgery sometimes helps). There is no way in hell they successfully competed against healthy males of the other species.

Whoever said the fusion had major physiological effects?

What's important is the DNA sequence. The statistical chances of two telomer sequences being found in the middle of a chromosome due to point mutation/duplication/addition is so absurdly low you may as well call it zero. That leaves a huge hole in the genetic history of humans IF they are not descended from primates.

That also means that unless IDers want a COMPLETELY ad hoc description of genetics (where no matter what DNA is found, it must be the ID) they are faced with a huge problem. Telomer sequences have no function unless they are on the outside of the chromosome (where they act as a kind of "timer" for when a cell has divided too many times). Even then, it only passively gets chopped up every division.

So, if humans were created separately, it means the ID decided, just for the heck of it, to take a primate genome, invert two chromosomes, fuse them WITHOUT removing telomers, and then say "alright, that's what a human will be."

Come on, that's borderline laziness.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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2/24/2012 5:49:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 4:34:37 PM, Wnope wrote:

Whoever said the fusion had major physiological effects?
Because aneuploidies ALWAYS have physiological effects. That's 2% of an organism's genes changed.

What's important is the DNA sequence. The statistical chances of two telomer sequences being found in the middle of a chromosome due to point mutation/duplication/addition is so absurdly low you may as well call it zero. That leaves a huge hole in the genetic history of humans IF they are not descended from primates.
Yep.

That also means that unless IDers want a COMPLETELY ad hoc description of genetics (where no matter what DNA is found, it must be the ID) they are faced with a huge problem. Telomer sequences have no function unless they are on the outside of the chromosome (where they act as a kind of "timer" for when a cell has divided too many times). Even then, it only passively gets chopped up every division.
Yep.

So, if humans were created separately, it means the ID decided, just for the heck of it, to take a primate genome, invert two chromosomes, fuse them WITHOUT removing telomers, and then say "alright, that's what a human will be."
God did it. :)

Come on, that's borderline laziness.
He works in mysterious ways.

Seriously though, all I'm saying is nothing has changed since Darwin observed the finches. All that is happening is that you're finding day after day more reason to assume evolution is real and occurring.

Next thing you know you'll being telling me a homo erectus gamete in S stage interphase was found preserved with mRNA coding for human DNA. God put it there just for kicks, to confuse us. It was never alive.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/24/2012 11:16:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 2/24/2012 5:49:03 PM, Zetsubou wrote:

Next thing you know you'll being telling me a homo erectus gamete in S stage interphase was found preserved with mRNA coding for human DNA. God put it there just for kicks, to confuse us. It was never alive.

Yes it's all just one test of faith.
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misspelled
Posts: 5
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3/28/2012 12:10:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The problem with the "fused chimp chromosome" is if it is true, it strongly suggests that humans are a MUTATION of chimpanzees. It's easy to see why some people think "evolved from".

So what happens to the theory that we evolved from a "common ancestor"?