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A First Cause?

threelittlebirds
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6/21/2009 3:22:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I wanted to hear some other opinions. Do you think there is a first cause that started everything, or do you think existence just goes back infinitely?

Also, please don't involve the bible.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/21/2009 3:28:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 3:22:59 PM, threelittlebirds wrote:
Also, please don't involve the bible.

You're not going to win that one.

In terms of this universe, the one that has been around for the past 14 or so billion years, it was caused by the 'Big Bang'. But, I do believe that before this universe, there was another universe that possibly collided with another universe, or it imploded on itself, etc. This would mean that time is infinite, and that there is no real "start" to the 'universe' at large - it just is.
Logical-Master
Posts: 2,538
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6/21/2009 3:33:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 3:28:29 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/21/2009 3:22:59 PM, threelittlebirds wrote:
Also, please don't involve the bible.

You're not going to win that one.

In terms of this universe, the one that has been around for the past 14 or so billion years, it was caused by the 'Big Bang'. But, I do believe that before this universe, there was another universe that possibly collided with another universe, or it imploded on itself, etc. This would mean that time is infinite, and that there is no real "start" to the 'universe' at large - it just is.

Infinity (at least what you're referring to) contradicts cause and effect as there would have to have been a cause for infinity (I assume you're suggesting there isn't one).
threelittlebirds
Posts: 142
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6/21/2009 3:39:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
You're not going to win that one.

Lol, I can hope.

In terms of this universe, the one that has been around for the past 14 or so billion years, it was caused by the 'Big Bang'. But, I do believe that before this universe, there was another universe that possibly collided with another universe, or it imploded on itself, etc. This would mean that time is infinite, and that there is no real "start" to the 'universe' at large - it just is.

That's what I thought, but I haven't really been able to grasp the whole universes bumping into each other thing.
Volkov
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6/21/2009 3:39:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 3:33:46 PM, Logical-Master wrote:
Infinity (at least what you're referring to) contradicts cause and effect as there would have to have been a cause for infinity (I assume you're suggesting there isn't one).

I guess I should have rephrased my point. You're right that it does contradict cause and effect, and I didn't bother noting that while I was thinking. It could be entirely possible that there was a cause that set off the chain of events that created the "first universe", so to speak. From that "first universe", other universes split off and just kept splitting off until we get where we are now.

I suppose when I said "infinite" I was thinking more of the effect, not the cause. My apologies. I do believe there was an original cause.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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6/21/2009 3:42:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 3:39:17 PM, threelittlebirds wrote:
In terms of this universe, the one that has been around for the past 14 or so billion years, it was caused by the 'Big Bang'. But, I do believe that before this universe, there was another universe that possibly collided with another universe, or it imploded on itself, etc. This would mean that time is infinite, and that there is no real "start" to the 'universe' at large - it just is.

That's what I thought, but I haven't really been able to grasp the whole universes bumping into each other thing.

Me neither. If universes extend indefintely, then how could they "bump"?
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
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6/21/2009 3:46:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 3:42:24 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Me neither. If universes extend indefintely, then how could they "bump"?

Infinity can become crowded?

I'm not sure, though I once heard it compared to the situation with galaxy clusters and colliding galaxies. Universes can be clustered together in such a way that while they can "bump" and collide with each other. I'm not sure about such a theory though.
Volkov
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6/21/2009 3:50:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 3:47:02 PM, threelittlebirds wrote:
If there's a first cause wouldn't it have to be willed? I'm not trying to hint at any religion, just asking a logical question.

Not necessarily. As with our own world, the conditions could have happened by chance. It may have taken until those conditions were met until the cause occurred, but it doesn't necessarily have to be willed in order to have it happen.

The only problem is, how do you measure such a thing without stepping outside the bounds of the universal laws? Because the laws as we know them were most likely not as they are now during the time when the cause occurred.
wjmelements
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6/21/2009 3:52:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 3:47:02 PM, threelittlebirds wrote:
If there's a first cause wouldn't it have to be willed? I'm not trying to hint at any religion, just asking a logical question.

The consciousness of the first cause? Considering that there would be nothing to be there to stimulate it to be the first cause, it would have to be conscious.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wjmelements
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6/21/2009 3:52:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 3:46:05 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/21/2009 3:42:24 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Me neither. If universes extend indefintely, then how could they "bump"?

Infinity can become crowded?

I'm not sure, though I once heard it compared to the situation with galaxy clusters and colliding galaxies. Universes can be clustered together in such a way that while they can "bump" and collide with each other. I'm not sure about such a theory though.

Universes that coexist with the capability of colliding would be in the same universe. So, no.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
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6/21/2009 3:55:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 3:52:55 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Universes that coexist with the capability of colliding would be in the same universe. So, no.

Possibility that the universe (meaning the one we live in) is comparable to galaxies, and they in fact exist on a larger 'universal' plane. Would that make sense?
Logical-Master
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6/21/2009 3:55:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Question: Perhaps there is a cause for "cause and effect". Perhaps this could be attributed to being the "first cause." :D After all, if there is a cause for cause and effect, we'd have to assume that the principals of cause of effect didn't apply to said cause (actually, I'm not sure how to word my actual thoughts . . . ).
Lt.Zubin
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6/21/2009 3:56:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The idea of causality is a human notion, and not necessarily an essential principle of reality. As David Hume said, our ideas of cause and effect arise from the experiences we have in our everyday lives. It seems to defy common sense, but we are not necessarily limited to a choice between a "first cause" and an infinite regression of causes.
Volkov
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6/21/2009 3:57:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 3:55:54 PM, Logical-Master wrote:
Question: Perhaps there is a cause for "cause and effect". Perhaps this could be attributed to being the "first cause." :D After all, if there is a cause for cause and effect, we'd have to assume that the principals of cause of effect didn't apply to said cause (actually, I'm not sure how to word my actual thoughts . . . ).

I generally get it, and that does make sense. What 'caused' the principle of cause and effect wasn't actually 'cause' as we know it, because it existed outside of what it created.
wjmelements
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6/21/2009 3:58:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 3:55:51 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/21/2009 3:52:55 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Universes that coexist with the capability of colliding would be in the same universe. So, no.

Possibility that the universe (meaning the one we live in) is comparable to galaxies, and they in fact exist on a larger 'universal' plane. Would that make sense?

You are trying to introduce some other dimension?

Otherwise, If there were other "universes" as there are other galaxy clusters, then the universe would simply be larger. It would still be the same "universe".
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
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6/21/2009 4:00:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 3:58:50 PM, wjmelements wrote:
You are trying to introduce some other dimension?

Absolutely, I think. It is something that should be factored in at least.
wjmelements
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6/21/2009 4:02:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 4:00:21 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/21/2009 3:58:50 PM, wjmelements wrote:
You are trying to introduce some other dimension?

Absolutely, I think. It is something that should be factored in at least.

Okay. That's different.

A fouth dimension is not concievable to us, though it can exist in algebraic geometry. I suppose, but I don't see how that affects the first cause discussion.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
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6/21/2009 4:06:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 4:02:40 PM, wjmelements wrote:
A fouth dimension is not concievable to us, though it can exist in algebraic geometry. I suppose, but I don't see how that affects the first cause discussion.

Its possible that the "fourth dimension" is the one that was the 'cause' of our universe, but can still exist outside of the rules of cause and effect, or even the rule of infinitely. Problem is that we wouldn't know how to measure or even explain such a thing because, as you said, the fourth dimension, or really any other dimension I would guess, isn't conceivable to us.
wjmelements
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6/21/2009 4:17:13 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 4:06:35 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/21/2009 4:02:40 PM, wjmelements wrote:
A fouth dimension is not concievable to us, though it can exist in algebraic geometry. I suppose, but I don't see how that affects the first cause discussion.

Its possible that the "fourth dimension" is the one that was the 'cause' of our universe, but can still exist outside of the rules of cause and effect, or even the rule of infinitely. Problem is that we wouldn't know how to measure or even explain such a thing because, as you said, the fourth dimension, or really any other dimension I would guess, isn't conceivable to us.

However, proposed dimension should still follow the rules of logic, for if it existed, we'd be somewhere in it (though probably stationary in it).

Causation is still required. Any cause that comes from that would also have to be traced back to another as well.

This could not continue back indefinitely, because time could not have existed indefinitely.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
threelittlebirds
Posts: 142
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6/21/2009 4:31:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 4:17:13 PM, wjmelements wrote:
However, proposed dimension should still follow the rules of logic, for if it existed, we'd be somewhere in it (though probably stationary in it).

Causation is still required. Any cause that comes from that would also have to be traced back to another as well.

But our logic is based on the laws of the universe that we inhabit. The multiverse (I think that's the name for the dimension that holds all the universes) most likely isn't bound by our laws.
wjmelements
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6/21/2009 4:34:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 4:31:12 PM, threelittlebirds wrote:
At 6/21/2009 4:17:13 PM, wjmelements wrote:
However, proposed dimension should still follow the rules of logic, for if it existed, we'd be somewhere in it (though probably stationary in it).

Causation is still required. Any cause that comes from that would also have to be traced back to another as well.

But our logic is based on the laws of the universe that we inhabit. The multiverse (I think that's the name for the dimension that holds all the universes) most likely isn't bound by our laws.

So now we're getting into metaphysics.

Should a metaphysical dimension exist, then it would explain why quantum particles randomly appear and disappear: they are passing the universe on this fourth dimension.

And things still seem to stand to reason.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wjmelements
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6/21/2009 4:51:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 3:52:00 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 6/21/2009 3:47:02 PM, threelittlebirds wrote:
If there's a first cause wouldn't it have to be willed? I'm not trying to hint at any religion, just asking a logical question.

The consciousness of the first cause? Considering that there would be nothing to be there to stimulate it to be the first cause, it would have to be conscious.

No one responded to this.
(*Bump*)

Conscious, and probably with free will. Again, there is wouldn't be any cause to stimulate it to be the first cause.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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6/21/2009 5:12:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 4:51:33 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 6/21/2009 3:52:00 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 6/21/2009 3:47:02 PM, threelittlebirds wrote:
If there's a first cause wouldn't it have to be willed? I'm not trying to hint at any religion, just asking a logical question.

The consciousness of the first cause? Considering that there would be nothing to be there to stimulate it to be the first cause, it would have to be conscious.

No one responded to this.
(*Bump*)

Conscious, and probably with free will. Again, there is wouldn't be any cause to stimulate it to be the first cause.

I'm inclined to agree, although I would not, of course, claim to know.
As nonsensical as it may seem, the question of whether life or its germinative state (chicken/egg) came first can be answered by arguing that at some point life was its germinative state* ... I think the same applies to causes. At some point the possibility of all causes was the cause because by virtue of its being possible it had to be. I am inclined to think it was self willed because possessing will would allow actualization, i.e. would act as the reason it had to be.

* Assuming one does not engage in a specious argument regarding speciation.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/21/2009 5:17:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Was there a first cause for our Universe? Yes, the Big Bang. The Multiverse? No. The Multiverse has existed for infinity. The Multiverse is the infinite hyperspace in which multiple spherical Universes exist. Universes have a beginning as well as an end as they constantly inflate and eventually die. Of course though, none of this happens by mere chance. The Multiverse is an infinite, conscious entity.

Here's some illustrations to help visualize this concept:
http://roberthowardweb.com...
http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com...

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
wjmelements
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6/21/2009 5:20:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 5:17:04 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Was there a first cause for our Universe? Yes, the Big Bang. The Multiverse? No. The Multiverse has existed for infinity. The Multiverse is the infinite hyperspace in which multiple spherical Universes exist. Universes have a beginning as well as an end as they constantly inflate and eventually die. Of course though, none of this happens by mere chance. The Multiverse is an infinite, conscious entity.

Odd religion.

What makes this multiverse conscious?

1,000th post!!!! :-D
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/21/2009 5:33:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/21/2009 5:20:11 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 6/21/2009 5:17:04 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Was there a first cause for our Universe? Yes, the Big Bang. The Multiverse? No. The Multiverse has existed for infinity. The Multiverse is the infinite hyperspace in which multiple spherical Universes exist. Universes have a beginning as well as an end as they constantly inflate and eventually die. Of course though, none of this happens by mere chance. The Multiverse is an infinite, conscious entity.

Odd religion.

What makes this multiverse conscious?

It's not religion. It's a cosmological theory as well as what some advanced extraterrestrials have confirmed. As for the Multiverse being conscious, how could it not be? Scientific experiments have proven that nature is intelligent. Scientists have discovered that no matter what they do to try to alter the DNA of a plant, 25% of the time, it fixes its DNA. They've also tried altering the DNA of a fruit fly to create a mutant without eyes, and no matter what they did, after 4 generations, the it would reform and grow eyes. Therefore, nature is intelligent and can rewrite it's DNA because things are the way they are for a reason. As the great philosopher Alan Watts said, "You cannot get an intelligent organism such as a human being out of an unintelligent Universe."

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat