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We Will Never Know if Time Travel Is Possible

clonez
Posts: 16
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7/30/2012 1:43:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Before we go into time travel, we have to know if it is possible or not. There are two possibilities, depending on interpretation of modern science,
Ok So there are two popular interpretations of Quantum Theory: Copenhagen, which implies a wavefunction collapse, with only one real outcome, and Many World's, which implies that all possible outcomes are real, in their own universe

IMO, I am not too sure about the details of Many World's interpretation. How can a new universe be created with every possibility? Wouldn't that result in infinite universes? :S

If the Copenhagen interpretation is true, then travelling back in time could create contradictions and paradoxes (if one were to travel back in time for a specific purpose, e.g. to win the lottery, then travelling back in time would cause you to jump to an alternate timeline, but in this new timeline you would be rich and thus have no need to travel back in time to win the lottery, so the original timeline couldn't have been changed), so based on logic it would not be possible.

If the Many World's interpretation is true, then going back in time would create a brand new timeline, so "you" would disappear from this timeline and enter a different timeline where you had won the lottery (but wouldn't be observable to me). Therefore, even if time travel is possible under the many worlds interpretation, only the observer would know, as the time traveller will have disappeared from our timeline, and the alternate timeline would have seen that the time traveller had won the lottery all along.

This means that if someone were to time travel to our universe, we would see no change as he manipulated our timeline from the very beginning. If someone were to travel out of our universe, we would never know the results, and he would merely disappear altogether.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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7/30/2012 1:54:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 1:43:11 PM, clonez wrote:
Before we go into time travel, we have to know if it is possible or not. There are two possibilities, depending on interpretation of modern science,
Ok So there are two popular interpretations of Quantum Theory: Copenhagen, which implies a wavefunction collapse, with only one real outcome, and Many World's, which implies that all possible outcomes are real, in their own universe

IMO, I am not too sure about the details of Many World's interpretation. How can a new universe be created with every possibility? Wouldn't that result in infinite universes? :S

If the Copenhagen interpretation is true, then travelling back in time could create contradictions and paradoxes (if one were to travel back in time for a specific purpose, e.g. to win the lottery, then travelling back in time would cause you to jump to an alternate timeline, but in this new timeline you would be rich and thus have no need to travel back in time to win the lottery, so the original timeline couldn't have been changed), so based on logic it would not be possible.

If the Many World's interpretation is true, then going back in time would create a brand new timeline, so "you" would disappear from this timeline and enter a different timeline where you had won the lottery (but wouldn't be observable to me). Therefore, even if time travel is possible under the many worlds interpretation, only the observer would know, as the time traveller will have disappeared from our timeline, and the alternate timeline would have seen that the time traveller had won the lottery all along.

This means that if someone were to time travel to our universe, we would see no change as he manipulated our timeline from the very beginning. If someone were to travel out of our universe, we would never know the results, and he would merely disappear altogether.

This was better when you said it tomorrow.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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7/30/2012 5:07:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: I know.. its not. time is measurement of change its always forward. It cannot seize to be itself. You would have to reverse the universe. from and outside point which is irrational. Because you would be out of existence. even if that nonsense was possible. ou would still be in it and reverse too. Its nonsense!
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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7/30/2012 6:53:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 1:54:27 PM, drafterman wrote:

This was better when you said it tomorrow.

LOL, well done Drafterman.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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7/30/2012 7:27:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you invent time travel, you'd have a motivation to travel time for some reason. By time travelling, you remove the motivation for ever wanting to time travel, and so you wouldn't invent a time travelling device. Whoever invented the time travelling device couldn't ever use it nor could they have their past changed at all by any other person, or the device would never exist.
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MouthWash
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7/30/2012 9:01:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Eh, time travel is pure bull.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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7/30/2012 9:33:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: such claims are beyong possible knowledge. You can't go from I don;t know to I know its possible. Its an argument from Ignorance. ..
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
tarkovsky
Posts: 212
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7/31/2012 8:44:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think backwards time travel would be no good for someone who wants to change the past. Going back in time would like rewinding a movie; You don't get to bring your future self with you, your future self goes back to be your past self, on his way to making all the same mistakes again.
caveat
Posts: 2,137
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7/31/2012 8:56:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Speculating on time travel is almost akin to a flatlander contemplating depth. Also, you'll have to decide which theory of time you subscribe to as time travel is drastically different in each.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
clonez
Posts: 16
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7/31/2012 10:27:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/31/2012 8:56:02 AM, caveat wrote:
Speculating on time travel is almost akin to a flatlander contemplating depth. Also, you'll have to decide which theory of time you subscribe to as time travel is drastically different in each.

Theory of time....? Pls explain :)
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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8/7/2012 10:18:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 1:43:11 PM, clonez wrote:

IMO, I am not too sure about the details of Many World's interpretation. How can a new universe be created with every possibility? Wouldn't that result in infinite universes? :S

The idea is that there are a finite number of branch points corresponding to events with outcomes. Some scientist calculated the number of universes. It's very large, but not infinite. Its a number larger than the number of DDO debates on abortion and gay rights, combined!

One idea is that if a person went back in time, they could spin off an alternative universe. The unchanged universe the person came from would continue, but also a modified one. Also, there is no contradiction in merely viewing the past, so long as you can't change it.
TheBossToss
Posts: 154
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8/16/2012 2:34:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 10:18:40 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 7/30/2012 1:43:11 PM, clonez wrote:

IMO, I am not too sure about the details of Many World's interpretation. How can a new universe be created with every possibility? Wouldn't that result in infinite universes? :S

The idea is that there are a finite number of branch points corresponding to events with outcomes. Some scientist calculated the number of universes. It's very large, but not infinite. Its a number larger than the number of DDO debates on abortion and gay rights, combined!


What???? That's impossible!!!
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clonez
Posts: 16
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8/24/2012 1:45:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/7/2012 10:18:40 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 7/30/2012 1:43:11 PM, clonez wrote:

IMO, I am not too sure about the details of Many World's interpretation. How can a new universe be created with every possibility? Wouldn't that result in infinite universes? :S

The idea is that there are a finite number of branch points corresponding to events with outcomes. Some scientist calculated the number of universes. It's very large, but not infinite. Its a number larger than the number of DDO debates on abortion and gay rights, combined!

One idea is that if a person went back in time, they could spin off an alternative universe. The unchanged universe the person came from would continue, but also a modified one. Also, there is no contradiction in merely viewing the past, so long as you can't change it.

Ok so then my question is that, for the person travelling in time, would he literally transfer to the other timeline, or will that person simply create a copy of himself in a different timeline that enacted his desired changes, so that nothing changes for the actual person who travels.
yoda878
Posts: 902
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8/24/2012 3:51:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I believe time travel is only possible in the past and not to be affected. What I mean is, that you could only travel back to the speed of light and see the past play out. You would have far less to go to hear the past though. This would be really neat, to double check text books and things. This is the only time travel I see as possible.
Me
TheJackel
Posts: 508
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8/26/2012 3:10:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Let me help here:

Traveling back into time is impossible... Existence all shares 1 universal key frame of time, and that is the instant of now.. Anything going on in existence, or in existence is going on all at the same time. They may all have their own time lines, and maybe even an existent timeline that looks exactly like our past, but they, if existent, all share the universal key frame.. Time is essentially the inertia from one instant of existence to the next. This means the future doesn't exist yet, and the past no longer exists even if a duplicate time line does.

Now for time travel into the future.., well that is possible. However, it wouldn't work how you think it does. And that gets into time particle dilation as you approach the speed of light. I wrote an interesting article on Time here:

http://matt-mattjwest.newsvine.com...

Abstract:

This greatly envolves time partical dilation in terms of physics and causality:

Time dilation is an observed difference of elapsed time between two observers which are moving relative to each other, or being differently situated from nearby gravitational masses. An observer will see the other observer's clock ticking at a slower rate than his/hers. This effect doesn't arise from technical aspects of the clock or the fact that any signal needs time to propagate, but from the nature of space-time described by theory of relativity.

So the instant of now is interesting to two different observers when one observer, or conscious entity, exists in a causality that may be slower or faster than another causality relative to that of their own in terms of particle dilation. Hence the particle dilation or the speed at which the neurons fire in my brain will also effect my time perception in relation to someone else who might have a particle dilation either faster or slower than that of my own. We can understand this by simply knowing that Energy and Mass are the same thing, that we are energy beings, and that where there is mass there is gravity to which effects time particle dilation. And this greatly depends on our own masses inertia in relation to that of another. And this is how we also know the conscious state has mass since it can be effected directly by particle dilation.

Example of Particle dilation:

If a person was traveling at the speed of light relative to us, their time particle dilation would be slower than our own, meaning that their perception of time would be slower than that of our own even though they traverse through the same amount of time in terms of time frame as we do. 100 years is still 100 years, but to them it would have perceptually been, for sake of argument without calculation, like what one 1 year is us in terms of time perception. This means it would take 100 years for them to process and perceive the equivalent of one year of our own time. But this also means they would age at the equivalent difference, and that means they would also age much slower than we would.

Another way to look at this in more easier terms is by looking at it in terms of suspended animation. This is where the closer you get to the speed of light, the closer your particle dilation get to a state of suspended animation. This same effect can happen in terms of cryogenics where particle dilation slows down to what we call rest mass:

The invariant mass, rest mass, intrinsic mass, proper mass or just mass is a characteristic of the total energy and momentum of an object or a system of objects that is the same in all frames of reference related by Lorentz transformations. When the system as a whole is at rest (or when it equivalently has zero net momentum), the invariant mass is equal to the total energy of the system divided by c2

So the colder you get the slow your particle dilation. Or for easy understanding, the less your atoms jiggle. So if you can freeze all your atoms at their rest mass, or in this case in a state of suspended animation without damaging your body tissues, organs ect from crystallization, you could effectively travel into the future just as you could if you could travel at the speed of light, or even at half the speed of light relative to our own current state of particle dilation. Thus if such a person woke up from a 100 year deep freeze , or slowed themselves down from the speed of light relative to that of our own mass momentum, they would find them selves in the future.
Veridas
Posts: 733
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8/26/2012 1:54:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There are several problems with current theories relating to time travel.

The first is that no theory, be it the many-worlds theory or the Copenhagen theory or any other are immediately testable, nor can we examine any of them in any specific way. Therefore, to examine their flaws is fruitless, as for all we know their flaws may not necessarily be as we might logically expect them to be.

The second is that time by naure is something we cannot study, and therefore we have no method of deducing how we travel through it at all. In theory, we could begin to travel "backwards" through time simply by having all clocks tick in the opposite direction and decide that sunday comes before monday, making next year the year 2011. Will we get younger? No, but our concept or travelling "forward" or "backward" through time is entirely arbitrary. Meaning it is as difficult to travel forward through time as it is to travel backwards. Given that we travel in one of these directions naturally, travelling in the other must logically be just as easy, given the right circumstance.

Another flaw is that of our perception, we percieve that time travels forward, yet for us as living beings that is the only way we know how to percieve it. For all we know, time for us could be travelling backwards, but we would not have any way to actively be aware of it, nor perceive it, as any discovery of such would be a thought made -after- we began to percieve it, but with time travelling backwards, it would be a thought we would never have. Therefore we would never be consciously aware of it.

A final flaw is that of the nature of the universe itself, in the space of one year, the earth travels a distance of roughly 56,784,000 miles. If we were to "teleport" through time then we would appear in the area that the planet was on duringe time in which we began, which if even one mile is out, would most likely result in the death of whomsoever travelled. ((You might end up three miles in the air, for instance)) Everything is relative, that includes the planet's position in space as well as time.

Therefore, I believe that time travel -is- possible, but only in short jumps, say no more than an hour or two, the amount of calculations as to where the traveller will end up as a result of that would be complicated enough, and therefore the time it would take to do such calculations would render any attempt to travel backwards through time totally redundant, as you would be moving by far slower bounds. Therefore, given that we percieve time to move forward, it would only be practical and possible to move with any speed if one were travelling forwards through time.

I coin this theory as the "Veridas is awesome" theory.
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phantom
Posts: 6,774
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8/26/2012 2:05:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If time travel is ever going to happen then it probably already has happened. All it's dependent on is whether someone is going to travel back in time to somewhere before today. If in 50 years, someone travels to 1100, than time travel already has happened. It happened in 1100. In light of that, I think we would most likely know of time travel occurring if it ever is going to.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
tBoonePickens
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8/27/2012 11:00:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/30/2012 1:43:11 PM, clonez wrote:
Before we go into time travel, we have to know if it is possible or not.
Sure is: time is constantly "traveling" into the future at 1 sec/sec; however, I wouldn't really call it traveling because time isn't something you travel.

There are two possibilities, depending on interpretation of modern science,
Ok So there are two popular interpretations of Quantum Theory: Copenhagen, which implies a wavefunction collapse, with only one real outcome, and Many World's, which implies that all possible outcomes are real, in their own universe
Well, these are interpretations of Quantum Mechanics and not necessarily interpretations of time travel. BTW, there are many other interpretations of QM as well.

IMO, I am not too sure about the details of Many World's interpretation. How can a new universe be created with every possibility? Wouldn't that result in infinite universes? :S
It's even worse! An infinity of infinities! Absolutely ludicrous with ZERO empirical evidence! Regardless, even it were so, time travel doesn't REALLY occur in the MWI because you're actually universe traveling!

If the Copenhagen interpretation is true, then travelling back in time could create contradictions and paradoxes (if one were to travel back in time for a specific purpose, e.g. to win the lottery, then travelling back in time would cause you to jump to an alternate timeline, but in this new timeline you would be rich and thus have no need to travel back in time to win the lottery, so the original timeline couldn't have been changed), so based on logic it would not be possible.
The Grandfather paradox. But again, time isn't something you travel. Actually, the concept of time travel is itself a contradiction!

If the Many World's interpretation is true, then going back in time would create a brand new timeline, so "you" would disappear from this timeline and enter a different timeline where you had won the lottery (but wouldn't be observable to me). Therefore, even if time travel is possible under the many worlds interpretation, only the observer would know, as the time traveller will have disappeared from our timeline, and the alternate timeline would have seen that the time traveller had won the lottery all along.
As I said before: in the MWI it's actually universe-traveling NOT time traveling. Time traveling is actually impossible in the MWI. Also, you could NEVER return to the universe from whence you came!

This means that if someone were to time travel to our universe, we would see no change as he manipulated our timeline from the very beginning. If someone were to travel out of our universe, we would never know the results, and he would merely disappear altogether.
Precisely!

But time = change; in other words, any change in a system = time is happening. So one can have no change (time stopping); less change (time slowing down); more change (time speeding up); but you can't have "negative change" as that is a meaningless/paradoxical thing.
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: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
RoyLatham
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9/18/2012 9:40:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yes, time travel is possible. Or it least that is the best modern theory. Professor Kaku explains in the video. The apparent paradoxes are resolved by time separating into branches. I time traveler jumps back and forth between branches, so a universe that he changes is not his universe. As the Prof concludes, "Get used to it."

For those unfamiliar with Michu Kaku, he is one of the heavy-hitters of contemporary physics, being the co-inventor of string field theory. He has authored a bunch of YouTube videos, TV programs, and books that explain the concepts of modern physics. If you claim he is wrong, go publish something in a physics journal and then get back to us.
Wnope
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9/19/2012 10:07:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/18/2012 9:40:02 PM, RoyLatham wrote:


Yes, time travel is possible. Or it least that is the best modern theory. Professor Kaku explains in the video. The apparent paradoxes are resolved by time separating into branches. I time traveler jumps back and forth between branches, so a universe that he changes is not his universe. As the Prof concludes, "Get used to it."

For those unfamiliar with Michu Kaku, he is one of the heavy-hitters of contemporary physics, being the co-inventor of string field theory. He has authored a bunch of YouTube videos, TV programs, and books that explain the concepts of modern physics. If you claim he is wrong, go publish something in a physics journal and then get back to us.

Thirty seconds in I was thinking "Hmm...sounds like Sliders..."
MouthWash
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9/19/2012 10:19:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm an Eternalist, and I'm not sure if that proves or disproves time travel. Even if it is physically possible it may be impossible anyway, since the repeating time cycle would force itself into a stable timeline.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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9/19/2012 10:41:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I am doing it now
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross