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Coal or Natural Gas

Ore_Ele
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8/14/2012 8:59:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
For those that are not supportive of "green energy" being economically practical. What do you view as the more logical of the status quo energy sources.

Coal or Natural gas?
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LaissezFaire
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8/14/2012 10:32:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Asking which substance is 'more logical' doesn't really make any sense. The best form of energy is whichever costs the least. That could be different at different times and in different places.
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: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Ore_Ele
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8/14/2012 1:29:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/14/2012 10:32:40 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Asking which substance is 'more logical' doesn't really make any sense. The best form of energy is whichever costs the least. That could be different at different times and in different places.

"more logical" means best considering all factors. If the only factor you care about is cost, then "logical" simply means "economically logical."

However, for the debate I'll be doing will go against Coal, since that is what Romney is out touting right now. Though I will do against Natural Gas or any other fossile fuel, if someone would like.
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LaissezFaire
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8/14/2012 1:31:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/14/2012 1:29:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/14/2012 10:32:40 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Asking which substance is 'more logical' doesn't really make any sense. The best form of energy is whichever costs the least. That could be different at different times and in different places.

"more logical" means best considering all factors. If the only factor you care about is cost, then "logical" simply means "economically logical."
What other factors could there be? Global warming and pollution count as costs too--they would be included when considering what option is most economically efficient.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Ore_Ele
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8/14/2012 8:50:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/14/2012 1:31:28 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 8/14/2012 1:29:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/14/2012 10:32:40 AM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Asking which substance is 'more logical' doesn't really make any sense. The best form of energy is whichever costs the least. That could be different at different times and in different places.

"more logical" means best considering all factors. If the only factor you care about is cost, then "logical" simply means "economically logical."
What other factors could there be? Global warming and pollution count as costs too--they would be included when considering what option is most economically efficient.

Environmental costs as separate from economic costs, or social costs (something that creates more jobs may be socially worth an extra $0.01 per kWh to some people).

Either way, I'll say nevermind, since Romney is out on a big Coal push, then I'll be contrasting against Coal.
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Microsuck
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8/14/2012 8:56:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Derregulate and let the freemarket decide the best form of energy.
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16kadams
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8/15/2012 8:20:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Coal is cheaper and already common. So a true free market would select that more then likely. Natural gas, however, is still cheaper then many sources and could easily compete with coal. It is also cleaner then coal.

Though nuclear is the best power source.
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TheBossToss
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8/15/2012 8:31:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/15/2012 8:20:32 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Though nuclear is the best power source.

Agreed.
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That was real intellectual property theft. They used her idea for their own profit and fame. When I pirate, I am usually downloading textbooks that I cannot afford to purchase on my own and that I do not want my parents to spend money on.
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RoyLatham
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8/15/2012 9:06:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Gas is now so cheap in the US that virtually all new power plants are being built with gas. It's cheap because fracking technology has opened up huge reserves. Fracking has also made gas available as a by-product of new oil production. Some say that gas is being sold below it's production cost. The oil is so valuable that the gas price is driven way down; it's still better to sell it than burn it off.

Natural gas is still expensive to ship overseas compared to coal. So there are big markets selling coal to the Far East.

Gas produces half the CO2 of coal burning, so it's also much easier to get permission to site a gas plant.
TheBossToss
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8/15/2012 9:22:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/15/2012 9:06:25 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
Gas is now so cheap in the US that virtually all new power plants are being built with gas. It's cheap because fracking technology has opened up huge reserves. Fracking has also made gas available as a by-product of new oil production. Some say that gas is being sold below it's production cost. The oil is so valuable that the gas price is driven way down; it's still better to sell it than burn it off.

Natural gas is still expensive to ship overseas compared to coal. So there are big markets selling coal to the Far East.

Gas produces half the CO2 of coal burning, so it's also much easier to get permission to site a gas plant.

Not to mention there is a reserve of ~420 trillion cubic feet of natural gas on the OCS off the California coast (http://www.boemre.gov...)
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Pro hasn't upheld his BOP. He forfeited last round. I did stuff.
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That was real intellectual property theft. They used her idea for their own profit and fame. When I pirate, I am usually downloading textbooks that I cannot afford to purchase on my own and that I do not want my parents to spend money on.
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1dustpelt
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8/15/2012 9:23:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/14/2012 8:56:40 PM, Microsuck wrote:
Derregulate and let the freemarket decide the best form of energy.
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TheBossToss
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8/15/2012 9:27:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/15/2012 9:23:19 AM, 1dustpelt wrote:
At 8/14/2012 8:56:40 PM, Microsuck wrote:
Derregulate and let the freemarket decide the best form of energy.

But that comes with it lots of potential problems of pollution and diseases that may result. This way, you are simply making the companies pay for the costs they would be otherwise putting on the rest of society, which is just.
Cats. I like cats.
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Pro hasn't upheld his BOP. He forfeited last round. I did stuff.
-Wallstreetatheist

That was real intellectual property theft. They used her idea for their own profit and fame. When I pirate, I am usually downloading textbooks that I cannot afford to purchase on my own and that I do not want my parents to spend money on.
-royalpaladin
BriannaWilson
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2/24/2015 5:28:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think natural gas is better because it does not produce any residue like ash or fumes that occur from gas/ oil burning. It is also quite cheap and easily available in most areas. Gas kitchen ranges are very efficient s their flame is adjustable; this is not possible for coal or even electric ovens. To find out about the advantages of gas appliances go to http://www.ibuildengineering.com...
R0b1Billion
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2/24/2015 9:24:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 5:28:13 AM, BriannaWilson wrote:
I think natural gas is better because it does not produce any residue like ash or fumes that occur from gas/ oil burning. It is also quite cheap and easily available in most areas. Gas kitchen ranges are very efficient s their flame is adjustable; this is not possible for coal or even electric ovens. To find out about the advantages of gas appliances go to http://www.ibuildengineering.com...

Electric ovens are not adjustable... hmm. Well you learn something every day they say, don't you.

Regarding the OP, I think we're asking the wrong question here. It's not "coal or gas," it's "how much energy should we be using." Humans use WAY too much energy as it is and that has repercussions. And you know, it's not even technically "energy" we're consuming from the physics-standpoint, it's action. All life on Earth obeys the principle of least action, but humans don't - we just burn and burn in very short periods of time. We should take advantage of all types of energy-sources, but use them sparingly. Sustainable development can minimize the need for cars (not to mention pavement). Reducing our consumption of bad goods can decrease our pressure on other nations for their resources (while their third-world citizens are starving and poor). We need to use less to make ourselves and everyone else happier!
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Iredia
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2/24/2015 4:05:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/14/2012 8:59:47 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
For those that are not supportive of "green energy" being economically practical. What do you view as the more logical of the status quo energy sources.

Coal or Natural gas?

Natural gas. No soot, no unwanted gases.
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Iredia
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2/24/2015 4:09:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/15/2012 8:20:32 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Coal is cheaper and already common. So a true free market would select that more then likely. Natural gas, however, is still cheaper then many sources and could easily compete with coal. It is also cleaner then coal.

Though nuclear is the best power source.

I disagree. It is the most powerful, but it isn't the most efficient and its very toxic. Hydro-electric dams best nuclear plants: clean, renewable energy with high efficiency.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
16kadams
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2/24/2015 4:13:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 4:09:20 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 8/15/2012 8:20:32 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Coal is cheaper and already common. So a true free market would select that more then likely. Natural gas, however, is still cheaper then many sources and could easily compete with coal. It is also cleaner then coal.

Though nuclear is the best power source.

I disagree. It is the most powerful, but it isn't the most efficient and its very toxic. Hydro-electric dams best nuclear plants: clean, renewable energy with high efficiency.

Why respond to me two years later lol

It is very clean and It isn't toxic... Do you know what toxic even means? Hydroelectric power is, if you want to be green, not green. Hydroelectric, just like nuclear, uses a lot of water and harms ecosystems. I like hydroelectric, many nuclear power plants are beginning to use contained water cooling systems.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Iredia
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2/24/2015 4:23:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 4:13:04 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/24/2015 4:09:20 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 8/15/2012 8:20:32 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Coal is cheaper and already common. So a true free market would select that more then likely. Natural gas, however, is still cheaper then many sources and could easily compete with coal. It is also cleaner then coal.

Though nuclear is the best power source.

I disagree. It is the most powerful, but it isn't the most efficient and its very toxic. Hydro-electric dams best nuclear plants: clean, renewable energy with high efficiency.

Why respond to me two years later lol

It is very clean and It isn't toxic... Do you know what toxic even means? Hydroelectric power is, if you want to be green, not green. Hydroelectric, just like nuclear, uses a lot of water and harms ecosystems. I like hydroelectric, many nuclear power plants are beginning to use contained water cooling systems.

How does it harm ecosystems ?
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
16kadams
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2/24/2015 5:06:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 4:23:27 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 2/24/2015 4:13:04 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/24/2015 4:09:20 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 8/15/2012 8:20:32 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Coal is cheaper and already common. So a true free market would select that more then likely. Natural gas, however, is still cheaper then many sources and could easily compete with coal. It is also cleaner then coal.

Though nuclear is the best power source.

I disagree. It is the most powerful, but it isn't the most efficient and its very toxic. Hydro-electric dams best nuclear plants: clean, renewable energy with high efficiency.

Why respond to me two years later lol

It is very clean and It isn't toxic... Do you know what toxic even means? Hydroelectric power is, if you want to be green, not green. Hydroelectric, just like nuclear, uses a lot of water and harms ecosystems. I like hydroelectric, many nuclear power plants are beginning to use contained water cooling systems.

How does it harm ecosystems ?

Putting a huge damn in a river is not gonna help it!

The biggest issue is that most suitable locations for hydro electric power have been utilized, so expanding the current hydroelectric base would be difficult
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Iredia
Posts: 1,608
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2/24/2015 5:12:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 5:06:03 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/24/2015 4:23:27 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 2/24/2015 4:13:04 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/24/2015 4:09:20 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 8/15/2012 8:20:32 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Coal is cheaper and already common. So a true free market would select that more then likely. Natural gas, however, is still cheaper then many sources and could easily compete with coal. It is also cleaner then coal.

Though nuclear is the best power source.

I disagree. It is the most powerful, but it isn't the most efficient and its very toxic. Hydro-electric dams best nuclear plants: clean, renewable energy with high efficiency.

Why respond to me two years later lol

It is very clean and It isn't toxic... Do you know what toxic even means? Hydroelectric power is, if you want to be green, not green. Hydroelectric, just like nuclear, uses a lot of water and harms ecosystems. I like hydroelectric, many nuclear power plants are beginning to use contained water cooling systems.

How does it harm ecosystems ?

Putting a huge damn in a river is not gonna help it!

You can do better than this. This doesn't answer my question.


The biggest issue is that most suitable locations for hydro electric power have been utilized, so expanding the current hydroelectric base would be difficult

This is debatable.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
16kadams
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2/24/2015 6:44:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 5:12:52 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 2/24/2015 5:06:03 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/24/2015 4:23:27 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 2/24/2015 4:13:04 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/24/2015 4:09:20 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 8/15/2012 8:20:32 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Coal is cheaper and already common. So a true free market would select that more then likely. Natural gas, however, is still cheaper then many sources and could easily compete with coal. It is also cleaner then coal.

Though nuclear is the best power source.

I disagree. It is the most powerful, but it isn't the most efficient and its very toxic. Hydro-electric dams best nuclear plants: clean, renewable energy with high efficiency.

Why respond to me two years later lol

It is very clean and It isn't toxic... Do you know what toxic even means? Hydroelectric power is, if you want to be green, not green. Hydroelectric, just like nuclear, uses a lot of water and harms ecosystems. I like hydroelectric, many nuclear power plants are beginning to use contained water cooling systems.

How does it harm ecosystems ?

Putting a huge damn in a river is not gonna help it!

You can do better than this. This doesn't answer my question.

It does, lol. Many fish are migratory and spend most of their time in the sea only to go into rivers to lay eggs. Other fish which simply live to move around will also be affected. A simple dam restricts their movement and, in effect, reduces their habitat. The only way to counter this is to spend a lot of money in order to figure out ways for fish to get through the dams. And although those technologies work, they are also costly. So by doing this you reduce the economic efficiency.

Hydroelectric power also suffers the issue of... carbon emissions! http://www.newscientist.com...

It should also be noted that hydro power uses a sh!t load of water.
http://www.waterfootprint.org... (pdf)



The biggest issue is that most suitable locations for hydro electric power have been utilized, so expanding the current hydroelectric base would be difficult

This is debatable.

Is it? You could likely build smaller dams here and there, but the large dam sites have, for the most part, been used. 16% of the worlds power = hydro. At best, you could increase it to 25%. Good? Sure, but not enough. *any* solution to perceived environmental damage from energy *requires* the usage of nuclear power.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Iredia
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2/25/2015 11:53:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/24/2015 6:44:01 PM, 16kadams wrote:

It does, lol. Many fish are migratory and spend most of their time in the sea only to go into rivers to lay eggs. Other fish which simply live to move around will also be affected. A simple dam restricts their movement and, in effect, reduces their habitat. The only way to counter this is to spend a lot of money in order to figure out ways for fish to get through the dams. And although those technologies work, they are also costly. So by doing this you reduce the economic efficiency.

Hydroelectric power also suffers the issue of... carbon emissions! http://www.newscientist.com...

It should also be noted that hydro power uses a sh!t load of water.
http://www.waterfootprint.org... (pdf)

No, your former response did not answer my request. This response does and based on it I now see HEP wasn't as clean as I once thought.


Is it? You could likely build smaller dams here and there, but the large dam sites have, for the most part, been used. 16% of the worlds power = hydro. At best, you could increase it to 25%. Good? Sure, but not enough. *any* solution to perceived environmental damage from energy *requires* the usage of nuclear power.

Nuclear power is obviously hazardous. In any case, clearly various energy sources have their pros and cons.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.