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Atavisms - A slam dunk for common descent

Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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8/14/2012 1:28:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Atavisms (in biology) are those very rare occassions when an organism displays morphological characteristics from earlier in their evolutionary lineage. They are brought about by the reactivation of genes during development, which are normally suppressed or expressed in a different pattern or with a different genetic load. Essentially, the result is a single organism within a population, born with a morphological characteristic that is not present in the rest of the population.

Examples of this may be seen in many species, but the incidence is very low. Yet, there are a number of documented cases.

i) Dolphins and Whales with legs.

Cetaceans like dolphins and whales are very occassionally caught in the wild with hind limbs, which they do not normally possess:

http://i3.photobucket.com...
http://i3.photobucket.com...
http://i3.photobucket.com...
http://i3.photobucket.com...

ii) Babies with tails.

"The existence of true human tails is unfortunately quite shocking for many religiously motivated anti-evolutionists, such as Duane Gish, who has written an often-quoted article entitled "Evolution and the human tail" (Gish 1983; see also Menton 1994; ReMine 1982). Solely based on the particulars of a single case study (Ledley 1982), these authors have erroneously concluded that atavistic human tails are "nothing more than anomalous malformations not traceable to any imaginary ancestral state" (Gish 1983). However, their arguments are clearly directed against pseudo-tails, not true tails. Gish claims these structures are not true tails for several reasons: (1) they lack vertebrae, (2) they are not inherited, and (3) the resemblance to tails is "highly superficial" and simply an "anomalous malformation". Menton further claims that (4) all true tails have muscles and can move, whereas human tails cannot. Each of these arguments are factually false, as explained above and as well-documented in the medical literature. Vertebrae and cartilage have occasionally been found in human tails. However, contrary to the claims of Gish, Menton, and ReMine, vertebrae are not a requirement for tails. M. sylvanus is a prime example of a primate whose fleshy tail lacks vertebrae (Hill 1974, p. 616; Hooten 1947, p. 23). Several cases are known where human tails have been inherited. Furthermore, we now know the genes responsible for the development of tails in mammals, and all humans have them. Inheritance of the tail structure per se is unnecessary since the developmental system has been inherited but is normally inactivated in humans. The "resemblance" to non-human tails is far from superficial, since all true human tails are complex structures composed of symmetrical layers of voluntary muscle, blood vessels, specialized nerves and sensing organs, and they can indeed move and contract." [From http://www.talkorigins.org... ]

http://i3.photobucket.com...

How do Creationists respond to atavisms?
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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8/14/2012 1:50:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Dude...... It was God because God does everything and hence he did it because the Bible says it's true.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
TheBossToss
Posts: 154
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8/15/2012 12:08:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 8/14/2012 1:50:52 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Dude...... It was God because God does everything and hence he did it because the Bible says it's true.

And you will burn in the fiery pits of hell for all eternity if you don't believe it without any evidence.

Cool stuff tho, Micro.
Cats. I like cats.
-Me

Pro hasn't upheld his BOP. He forfeited last round. I did stuff.
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That was real intellectual property theft. They used her idea for their own profit and fame. When I pirate, I am usually downloading textbooks that I cannot afford to purchase on my own and that I do not want my parents to spend money on.
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Magic8000
Posts: 975
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1/14/2014 2:43:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/14/2014 1:56:14 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Where's medic?

Reviving a creationist while letting evolutionists die.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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1/14/2014 2:44:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/14/2014 2:43:23 PM, Magic8000 wrote:
At 1/14/2014 1:56:14 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Where's medic?

Reviving a creationist while letting evolutionists die.

ahahaha it took me a while to get that
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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1/14/2014 3:29:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2012 1:28:13 PM, Microsuck wrote:
Atavisms (in biology) are those very rare occassions when an organism displays morphological characteristics from earlier in their evolutionary lineage.

This is what I would call "begging the issue". Also known as "circular reasoning" If you want to debate with people who don't accept your premises you have to learn to describe the data, not start with your conclusion.


How do Creationists respond to atavisms?

rolling of the eyes, mostly, I'd imagine. If you want to ask how creationists respond to the fact that the coccyx is a lot like a tail, I'd say "Probably means the same designer made all the variants of mammal."
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v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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1/14/2014 3:32:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/14/2012 1:28:13 PM, Microsuck wrote:
Atavisms (in biology) are those very rare occassions when an organism displays morphological characteristics from earlier in their evolutionary lineage. They are brought about by the reactivation of genes during development, which are normally suppressed or expressed in a different pattern or with a different genetic load. Essentially, the result is a single organism within a population, born with a morphological characteristic that is not present in the rest of the population.

Examples of this may be seen in many species, but the incidence is very low. Yet, there are a number of documented cases.

i) Dolphins and Whales with legs.

Cetaceans like dolphins and whales are very occassionally caught in the wild with hind limbs, which they do not normally possess:

http://i3.photobucket.com...
http://i3.photobucket.com...
http://i3.photobucket.com...
http://i3.photobucket.com...


I just had a laugh here, thinking how following these links is like opening those tabloids at the grocery check-out. "Hey! I thought I was going to find a picture of a 90 year old woman and her baby!"
This space for rent.