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The "Fact' of Global Warming?

judasmaccabaeus
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9/4/2012 8:45:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
+ Is Global Warming a Fact? +

What is concisely referred to as global warming, is a fatal mistake of the present time.

- Václav Klaus

In the beginning, only a few certain individuals were actually skeptical of Global Warming. Numerous scientific and political authorities had already reached a consensus that Global Warming was caused by man, and presented a eminent danger to both human civilization and planet Earth itself. At the time, the few brave critics of this 'consensus' were roundly ridiculed by the powers that be, which included a substantial number of reputable journalists. Indeed, the news media accepted Global Warming without question. Now, in the second decade of the third millenium, those few global warming 'deniers' may well have been right after all and they have been joined by a growing number of scientists in their skepticism that the Earth is experiencing unprecendented increases in temperature due to man-made activity. At least two national figures, one a politician, the other an economist, have gone so far as to deem Global Warming as a hoax, a fraud that should be 'denied' by all concerned. Their statements read as follows:

Private industry and governments around the world have spent trillions of dollars in the name of saving our planet from manmade global warming....Mounting evidence suggests that claims of manmade global warming might turn out to be the greatest hoax in mankind's history.

- Walter E. Williams

With all of the hysteria, all of the fear, all of the phony science, could it be that man-made global warming is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people? It sure sounds like it.

- James M. Inhofe

Far more troubling is the increasing understanding among at least some observers that Global Warming was, is, and will continue to be an actual scientific mistake, a deliberate attempt to prove something that just was not true at all. Call it a fraud or a scandal, or perhaps even an honest mistake. Regardless of the labels, a growing number of actual scientists are voicing their increasing concern over the so-called 'science' of Global Warming. These experts have some particulary harsh criticism concerning this subject, which was, until recently, considered by many to be a scientific 'fact', an 'inconvenient truth' in the words of one of the most famous environmental activists- former Vice President Albert Gore, Jr. Here is what at least some scientists have to say most recently about Global Warming:

[Global Warming is] the biggest ever scientific fraud.

- Andrei Kapitsa

Global warming is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist.

- Harold Lewis

[Global Warming is] worst scientific scandal in the history.... When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.

- Dr. Kiminori Itoh

Global warming -- at least the modern nightmare vision -- is a myth. I am sure of it and so are a growing number of scientists. But what is really worrying is that the world's politicians and policy makers are not.

- David Bellamy

Global warming is indeed a scam, perpetrated by scientists with vested interests, but in need of crash courses in geology, logic and the philosophy of science.

- Martin Keeley

To put it bluntly, the great man-made global warming catastrophe that was predicted has been canceled! And that is a victory for science.

- Marc Moran

These are some fairly strong words, coming from a diverse array of individuals who seem to know what they are talking about. It seems that the scientific 'consensus' concerning Global Warming is actually non-existent as more and more of the public have begun to have serious doubts about its actual validity.
You are Peter, and upon this Rock, I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it.

- Matthew 16:18
slo1
Posts: 4,364
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9/4/2012 9:07:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 8:45:19 AM, judasmaccabaeus wrote:
+ Is Global Warming a Fact? +

What is concisely referred to as global warming, is a fatal mistake of the present time.

- Václav Klaus

In the beginning, only a few certain individuals were actually skeptical of Global Warming. Numerous scientific and political authorities had already reached a consensus that Global Warming was caused by man, and presented a eminent danger to both human civilization and planet Earth itself. At the time, the few brave critics of this 'consensus' were roundly ridiculed by the powers that be, which included a substantial number of reputable journalists. Indeed, the news media accepted Global Warming without question. Now, in the second decade of the third millenium, those few global warming 'deniers' may well have been right after all and they have been joined by a growing number of scientists in their skepticism that the Earth is experiencing unprecendented increases in temperature due to man-made activity. At least two national figures, one a politician, the other an economist, have gone so far as to deem Global Warming as a hoax, a fraud that should be 'denied' by all concerned. Their statements read as follows:

Private industry and governments around the world have spent trillions of dollars in the name of saving our planet from manmade global warming....Mounting evidence suggests that claims of manmade global warming might turn out to be the greatest hoax in mankind's history.

- Walter E. Williams

With all of the hysteria, all of the fear, all of the phony science, could it be that man-made global warming is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people? It sure sounds like it.

- James M. Inhofe

Far more troubling is the increasing understanding among at least some observers that Global Warming was, is, and will continue to be an actual scientific mistake, a deliberate attempt to prove something that just was not true at all. Call it a fraud or a scandal, or perhaps even an honest mistake. Regardless of the labels, a growing number of actual scientists are voicing their increasing concern over the so-called 'science' of Global Warming. These experts have some particulary harsh criticism concerning this subject, which was, until recently, considered by many to be a scientific 'fact', an 'inconvenient truth' in the words of one of the most famous environmental activists- former Vice President Albert Gore, Jr. Here is what at least some scientists have to say most recently about Global Warming:

[Global Warming is] the biggest ever scientific fraud.

- Andrei Kapitsa

Global warming is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist.

- Harold Lewis

[Global Warming is] worst scientific scandal in the history.... When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.

- Dr. Kiminori Itoh

Global warming -- at least the modern nightmare vision -- is a myth. I am sure of it and so are a growing number of scientists. But what is really worrying is that the world's politicians and policy makers are not.

- David Bellamy

Global warming is indeed a scam, perpetrated by scientists with vested interests, but in need of crash courses in geology, logic and the philosophy of science.

- Martin Keeley

To put it bluntly, the great man-made global warming catastrophe that was predicted has been canceled! And that is a victory for science.

- Marc Moran

These are some fairly strong words, coming from a diverse array of individuals who seem to know what they are talking about. It seems that the scientific 'consensus' concerning Global Warming is actually non-existent as more and more of the public have begun to have serious doubts about its actual validity.

With all the pony's in the show one needs to have a lot of distrust for those for and against global warming theory, including the items you posted. When one looks at the pure facts and comes to your own conclusion it opens you up to possibilities and further conclusions that we really need more study at this point and less opinions. Let's look at the facts.

1. Carbon is increasing in the atmosphere.
2. The burning of fossil fuels most definitely contributes to #1.
3. The natural carbon sink, process to collect carbon from atmosphere and put in oceans and earth, is not robust enough to stop #1.
4. Carbon in the atmosphere has the effect of capturing more heat.
5. There are other factors involved in climate change.

When one looks at those above five facts, one should not distribute propaganda to discredit anyone who is studying climate change. In fact I would think those five facts would spur people to say, "hey, it is pretty important for us to figure out how carbon impacts our environment."

Many people like to classify that we are too insignificant to impact our environment. I just say let's all start taking dumps in the street and see about that.
Ore_Ele
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9/4/2012 7:57:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Awesome, the op does not present a single fact in the argument. Merely a long list of appeal to authority.
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TheBossToss
Posts: 154
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9/4/2012 8:07:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 9:07:41 AM, slo1 wrote:
With all the pony's in the show one needs to have a lot of distrust for those for and against global warming theory, including the items you posted. When one looks at the pure facts and comes to your own conclusion it opens you up to possibilities and further conclusions that we really need more study at this point and less opinions. Let's look at the facts.

1. Carbon is increasing in the atmosphere.
2. The burning of fossil fuels most definitely contributes to #1.
3. The natural carbon sink, process to collect carbon from atmosphere and put in oceans and earth, is not robust enough to stop #1.
4. Carbon in the atmosphere has the effect of capturing more heat.
5. There are other factors involved in climate change.

When one looks at those above five facts, one should not distribute propaganda to discredit anyone who is studying climate change. In fact I would think those five facts would spur people to say, "hey, it is pretty important for us to figure out how carbon impacts our environment."

Many people like to classify that we are too insignificant to impact our environment. I just say let's all start taking dumps in the street and see about that.

Sure, why not? It would make our streets much dirtier and less healthy, for sure, but the Earth would not even notice (were we to assume the planet has some sort of overriding consciousness). The problem with your five points, to continue, is that carbon dioxide emissions historically do not affect temperature except in large quantities, and if you look at temperature data all the way back millions of years, it does not always correlate with CO2 levels: http://nanopatentsandinnovations.blogspot.com...,
http://www.co2science.org...,
http://www.co2science.org...,
Fischer, H., Wahlen, M., Smith, J., Mastroianni, D. and Deck B. 1999. Ice core records of atmospheric CO2 around the last three glacial terminations. Science 283: 1712-1714,
http://phys.org...

While the last source would seem to support your argument, note that the planet was significantly warmer than today with similar CO2 levels, indicating little correlation. As warming has stalled over the past decade, http://data.giss.nasa.gov... (Figure 7), it seems logical to conclude factors besides CO2 levels, mainly solar irradiance, El Ninos and La Ninas, and the faact we are exiting the Little Ice Age (global mean temperature anomalies have barely surpoassed 0 degrees Celsius), are causing the increase in heat.
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Ore_Ele
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9/4/2012 8:52:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 8:07:05 PM, TheBossToss wrote:
At 9/4/2012 9:07:41 AM, slo1 wrote:
With all the pony's in the show one needs to have a lot of distrust for those for and against global warming theory, including the items you posted. When one looks at the pure facts and comes to your own conclusion it opens you up to possibilities and further conclusions that we really need more study at this point and less opinions. Let's look at the facts.

1. Carbon is increasing in the atmosphere.
2. The burning of fossil fuels most definitely contributes to #1.
3. The natural carbon sink, process to collect carbon from atmosphere and put in oceans and earth, is not robust enough to stop #1.
4. Carbon in the atmosphere has the effect of capturing more heat.
5. There are other factors involved in climate change.

When one looks at those above five facts, one should not distribute propaganda to discredit anyone who is studying climate change. In fact I would think those five facts would spur people to say, "hey, it is pretty important for us to figure out how carbon impacts our environment."

Many people like to classify that we are too insignificant to impact our environment. I just say let's all start taking dumps in the street and see about that.

Sure, why not? It would make our streets much dirtier and less healthy, for sure, but the Earth would not even notice (were we to assume the planet has some sort of overriding consciousness). The problem with your five points, to continue, is that carbon dioxide emissions historically do not affect temperature except in large quantities, and if you look at temperature data all the way back millions of years, it does not always correlate with CO2 levels: http://nanopatentsandinnovations.blogspot.com...,
http://www.co2science.org...,
http://www.co2science.org...,
Fischer, H., Wahlen, M., Smith, J., Mastroianni, D. and Deck B. 1999. Ice core records of atmospheric CO2 around the last three glacial terminations. Science 283: 1712-1714,
http://phys.org...

While the last source would seem to support your argument, note that the planet was significantly warmer than today with similar CO2 levels, indicating little correlation. As warming has stalled over the past decade, http://data.giss.nasa.gov... (Figure 7), it seems logical to conclude factors besides CO2 levels, mainly solar irradiance, El Ninos and La Ninas, and the faact we are exiting the Little Ice Age (global mean temperature anomalies have barely surpoassed 0 degrees Celsius), are causing the increase in heat.

CO2 levels cause warming, not heat. As such, an increase in CO2 levels will take time before an increase in temperature is detectable. In the past, such increases have taken tens of thousands of years. Obviously, not seeing something after only a few decades does not disprove the theory. Just like if you take a pale of ocean water and find no fish, you cannot conclude that there are no fish in the ocean.

Second, you point out that the last decade has been flat. If we look at the solar radiance we see... "Figure 9 reveals that solar irradiance is beginning to emerge from a protracted minimum, at least two years longer than prior minima of the satellite era, making the sun a significant source for cooling during the past several years." Yet there has not been cooling, there has been flatness, meaning as we pull into high of the solar cycle, we will see the increases.

The overall increase is driven by the increasing CO2 (and other gases), while year to year and decade to decade fluctuations can be attributed to el nino, la nina, and solar cycles.
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Lordknukle
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9/4/2012 9:22:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's really quite simple. As long as you recognize (Chem 101) that carbon dioxide is a green house gas, global warming is non-negatable.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Frederick53
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9/4/2012 10:39:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 9:22:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
It's really quite simple. As long as you recognize (Chem 101) that carbon dioxide is a green house gas, global warming is non-negatable.

Indeed.
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16kadams
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9/4/2012 11:14:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 9:22:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
It's really quite simple. As long as you recognize (Chem 101) that carbon dioxide is a green house gas, global warming is non-negatable.

It's debatable what the climate sensitivity is and how strong the CO2 effect is.
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https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
slo1
Posts: 4,364
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9/5/2012 8:19:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 8:07:05 PM, TheBossToss wrote:
At 9/4/2012 9:07:41 AM, slo1 wrote:
With all the pony's in the show one needs to have a lot of distrust for those for and against global warming theory, including the items you posted. When one looks at the pure facts and comes to your own conclusion it opens you up to possibilities and further conclusions that we really need more study at this point and less opinions. Let's look at the facts.

1. Carbon is increasing in the atmosphere.
2. The burning of fossil fuels most definitely contributes to #1.
3. The natural carbon sink, process to collect carbon from atmosphere and put in oceans and earth, is not robust enough to stop #1.
4. Carbon in the atmosphere has the effect of capturing more heat.
5. There are other factors involved in climate change.

When one looks at those above five facts, one should not distribute propaganda to discredit anyone who is studying climate change. In fact I would think those five facts would spur people to say, "hey, it is pretty important for us to figure out how carbon impacts our environment."

Many people like to classify that we are too insignificant to impact our environment. I just say let's all start taking dumps in the street and see about that.

Sure, why not? It would make our streets much dirtier and less healthy, for sure, but the Earth would not even notice (were we to assume the planet has some sort of overriding consciousness). The problem with your five points, to continue, is that carbon dioxide emissions historically do not affect temperature except in large quantities, and if you look at temperature data all the way back millions of years, it does not always correlate with CO2 levels: http://nanopatentsandinnovations.blogspot.com...,
http://www.co2science.org...,
http://www.co2science.org...,
Fischer, H., Wahlen, M., Smith, J., Mastroianni, D. and Deck B. 1999. Ice core records of atmospheric CO2 around the last three glacial terminations. Science 283: 1712-1714,
http://phys.org...

While the last source would seem to support your argument, note that the planet was significantly warmer than today with similar CO2 levels, indicating little correlation. As warming has stalled over the past decade, http://data.giss.nasa.gov... (Figure 7), it seems logical to conclude factors besides CO2 levels, mainly solar irradiance, El Ninos and La Ninas, and the faact we are exiting the Little Ice Age (global mean temperature anomalies have barely surpoassed 0 degrees Celsius), are causing the increase in heat.

I think the point is not that good mother earth will be a-ok, it is humanity and the shift in demographics and resulting hardships that are at stake. You can provide stats all day long, but 1-5 are indisputable facts. It does behooves us to understand the role CO2 and methane play in global warming among the other factors such as radiation from the sun.

The main point of my argument was that it is asinine to use rhetoric to advocate that burning of fossil fuels has no bearing on temperature of the earth when it is clearly not know whether it is or isn't at this point. It sounds like the proverbial ostrich putting the head in the sand and ignoring 5 indisputable facts.

PS. sun's radiation is just one part of warming. It requires an atmosphere of gasses to trap heat which is radiated back towards space, which is clearly impacted by the amount of CO2, water, and methane in the atmosphere. One can not say warming is caused by the sun's cycles and not CO2 in the atmosphere when both clearly have an impact. That is as crazy as Al Gore sounding the fire alarm for death and destruction.
sadolite
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9/5/2012 5:17:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 11:14:59 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 9/4/2012 9:22:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
It's really quite simple. As long as you recognize (Chem 101) that carbon dioxide is a green house gas, global warming is non-negatable.

It's debatable what the climate sensitivity is and how strong the CO2 effect is.

Shut your face!!! global warming is a fact and it's your fault. The debate is over. Now pay up, govt needs to make changes that will have no effect one way or the other. But if they don't make changes it will get 100 times worse.
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KuriouserNKuriouser
Posts: 23
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9/12/2012 8:48:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 8:45:19 AM, judasmaccabaeus wrote:
+ Is Global Warming a Fact? +

What is concisely referred to as global warming, is a fatal mistake of the present time.

- V"clav Klaus

In the beginning, only a few certain individuals were actually skeptical of Global Warming. Numerous scientific and political authorities had already reached a consensus that Global Warming was caused by man, and presented a eminent danger to both human civilization and planet Earth itself. At the time, the few brave critics of this 'consensus' were roundly ridiculed by the powers that be, which included a substantial number of reputable journalists. Indeed, the news media accepted Global Warming without question. Now, in the second decade of the third millenium, those few global warming 'deniers' may well have been right after all and they have been joined by a growing number of scientists in their skepticism that the Earth is experiencing unprecendented increases in temperature due to man-made activity. At least two national figures, one a politician, the other an economist, have gone so far as to deem Global Warming as a hoax, a fraud that should be 'denied' by all concerned. Their statements read as follows:

Private industry and governments around the world have spent trillions of dollars in the name of saving our planet from manmade global warming....Mounting evidence suggests that claims of manmade global warming might turn out to be the greatest hoax in mankind's history.

- Walter E. Williams

With all of the hysteria, all of the fear, all of the phony science, could it be that man-made global warming is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people? It sure sounds like it.

- James M. Inhofe

Far more troubling is the increasing understanding among at least some observers that Global Warming was, is, and will continue to be an actual scientific mistake, a deliberate attempt to prove something that just was not true at all. Call it a fraud or a scandal, or perhaps even an honest mistake. Regardless of the labels, a growing number of actual scientists are voicing their increasing concern over the so-called 'science' of Global Warming. These experts have some particulary harsh criticism concerning this subject, which was, until recently, considered by many to be a scientific 'fact', an 'inconvenient truth' in the words of one of the most famous environmental activists- former Vice President Albert Gore, Jr. Here is what at least some scientists have to say most recently about Global Warming:

[Global Warming is] the biggest ever scientific fraud.

- Andrei Kapitsa

Global warming is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist.

- Harold Lewis

[Global Warming is] worst scientific scandal in the history.... When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.

- Dr. Kiminori Itoh

Global warming -- at least the modern nightmare vision -- is a myth. I am sure of it and so are a growing number of scientists. But what is really worrying is that the world's politicians and policy makers are not.

- David Bellamy

Global warming is indeed a scam, perpetrated by scientists with vested interests, but in need of crash courses in geology, logic and the philosophy of science.

- Martin Keeley

To put it bluntly, the great man-made global warming catastrophe that was predicted has been canceled! And that is a victory for science.

- Marc Moran

These are some fairly strong words, coming from a diverse array of individuals who seem to know what they are talking about. It seems that the scientific 'consensus' concerning Global Warming is actually non-existent as more and more of the public have begun to have serious doubts about its actual validity.

You're committing a logical fallacy called the Appeal to Authority. 97-98% of well published climatologists agree that humans are a significant cause of global warming. There is no controversy in the field of experts. You can't quote any scientist from any field of science and have their opinion matter. They have to specialize in the applicable field.
Aaronroy
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9/12/2012 10:00:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 11:14:59 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 9/4/2012 9:22:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
It's really quite simple. As long as you recognize (Chem 101) that carbon dioxide is a green house gas, global warming is non-negatable.

It's debatable what the climate sensitivity is and how strong the CO2 effect is.

The position of the affirmative on 'Global Warming' is not that CO2 is the main cause or the sole cause for global warming.

Rather, the position is that the influx of carbon dioxide causing small incremental changes to the temperature excelerates the water cycle; thus the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere wold increase. THAT is what is the paramount concern being that water vapor is the most threatening greenhouse gas.
turn down for h'what
Aaronroy
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9/12/2012 10:02:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 10:00:23 PM, Aaronroy wrote:
At 9/4/2012 11:14:59 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 9/4/2012 9:22:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
It's really quite simple. As long as you recognize (Chem 101) that carbon dioxide is a green house gas, global warming is non-negatable.

It's debatable what the climate sensitivity is and how strong the CO2 effect is.

The position of the affirmative on 'Global Warming' is not that CO2 is the main cause or the sole cause for global warming.

Rather, the position is that the influx of carbon dioxide causes small incremental changes to the temperature that will excelerate the water cycle; thus the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere would increase. THAT is what is the paramount concern being that water vapor is the most threatening greenhouse gas.

fix'd.

My dyslexia is worsening by the minute, I'm afraid.
turn down for h'what
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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9/13/2012 5:23:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Question:

Assuming Global warming a fact...When were the actions that caused the warming of yesterday? This is a serious question concerning causation. put another way....How long from a massive release of harmful gasses to the effect of climate change? No mindless political scatology please.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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9/13/2012 10:14:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 10:02:01 PM, Aaronroy wrote:
At 9/12/2012 10:00:23 PM, Aaronroy wrote:
At 9/4/2012 11:14:59 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 9/4/2012 9:22:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
It's really quite simple. As long as you recognize (Chem 101) that carbon dioxide is a green house gas, global warming is non-negatable.

It's debatable what the climate sensitivity is and how strong the CO2 effect is.

The position of the affirmative on 'Global Warming' is not that CO2 is the main cause or the sole cause for global warming.

Rather, the position is that the influx of carbon dioxide causes small incremental changes to the temperature that will excelerate the water cycle; thus the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere would increase. THAT is what is the paramount concern being that water vapor is the most threatening greenhouse gas.

fix'd.

My dyslexia is worsening by the minute, I'm afraid.

Doesn't that assume 1.6/100,000 CO2 particles cause enough of a temperature rise to increase the water vapor?
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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9/13/2012 11:43:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/12/2012 8:48:12 AM, KuriouserNKuriouser wrote:
You're committing a logical fallacy called the Appeal to Authority. 97-98% of well published climatologists agree that humans are a significant cause of global warming. There is no controversy in the field of experts. You can't quote any scientist from any field of science and have their opinion matter. They have to specialize in the applicable field.

There are only about 1000 genuine climate scientists in the world. About 400 are voluntarily on lists of skeptics.

I think most skeptics agree that human-caused CO2 is "significant." "Significant" to a scientist means the contribution is above the random noise level. 5% or 10% of the total is likely to be thought significant. Just about everyone agrees the climate is warming. Skeptics claim present climate models are unreliable.

In 2000, alarmists claimed that climate models accounted for all the influences on climate, and that CO2 was dominant. Hence, large increases in temperature in the decade 2000-2009 were very likely. The lack of warming is now attributed to the failure to model the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, a recurring cycle that results in Arctic ice being at a minimum about every 60-70 years, followed by recovery.

None of the CO2 restrictions proposed are even claimed to have a measurable effect on warming. Research money should go into climate engineering, which has the potential to solve warming regardless of cause, and at an affordable cost.
16kadams
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9/13/2012 11:45:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 11:43:19 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 9/12/2012 8:48:12 AM, KuriouserNKuriouser wrote:
You're committing a logical fallacy called the Appeal to Authority. 97-98% of well published climatologists agree that humans are a significant cause of global warming. There is no controversy in the field of experts. You can't quote any scientist from any field of science and have their opinion matter. They have to specialize in the applicable field.

There are only about 1000 genuine climate scientists in the world. About 400 are voluntarily on lists of skeptics.

Wow, I actually want a source on that because if thats true the consensus fails.


I think most skeptics agree that human-caused CO2 is "significant." "Significant" to a scientist means the contribution is above the random noise level. 5% or 10% of the total is likely to be thought significant. Just about everyone agrees the climate is warming. Skeptics claim present climate models are unreliable.

In 2000, alarmists claimed that climate models accounted for all the influences on climate, and that CO2 was dominant. Hence, large increases in temperature in the decade 2000-2009 were very likely. The lack of warming is now attributed to the failure to model the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, a recurring cycle that results in Arctic ice being at a minimum about every 60-70 years, followed by recovery.

None of the CO2 restrictions proposed are even claimed to have a measurable effect on warming. Research money should go into climate engineering, which has the potential to solve warming regardless of cause, and at an affordable cost.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
MouthWash
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9/16/2012 10:05:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 11:45:28 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 9/13/2012 11:43:19 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 9/12/2012 8:48:12 AM, KuriouserNKuriouser wrote:
You're committing a logical fallacy called the Appeal to Authority. 97-98% of well published climatologists agree that humans are a significant cause of global warming. There is no controversy in the field of experts. You can't quote any scientist from any field of science and have their opinion matter. They have to specialize in the applicable field.

There are only about 1000 genuine climate scientists in the world. About 400 are voluntarily on lists of skeptics.

Wow, I actually want a source on that because if thats true the consensus fails.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
16kadams
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9/16/2012 4:03:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 10:05:47 AM, MouthWash wrote:
At 9/13/2012 11:45:28 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 9/13/2012 11:43:19 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 9/12/2012 8:48:12 AM, KuriouserNKuriouser wrote:
You're committing a logical fallacy called the Appeal to Authority. 97-98% of well published climatologists agree that humans are a significant cause of global warming. There is no controversy in the field of experts. You can't quote any scientist from any field of science and have their opinion matter. They have to specialize in the applicable field.

There are only about 1000 genuine climate scientists in the world. About 400 are voluntarily on lists of skeptics.

Wow, I actually want a source on that because if thats true the consensus fails.

Roy both numbers are off http://wattsupwiththat.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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9/16/2012 4:18:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 4:03:30 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 9/16/2012 10:05:47 AM, MouthWash wrote:
At 9/13/2012 11:45:28 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 9/13/2012 11:43:19 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 9/12/2012 8:48:12 AM, KuriouserNKuriouser wrote:
You're committing a logical fallacy called the Appeal to Authority. 97-98% of well published climatologists agree that humans are a significant cause of global warming. There is no controversy in the field of experts. You can't quote any scientist from any field of science and have their opinion matter. They have to specialize in the applicable field.

There are only about 1000 genuine climate scientists in the world. About 400 are voluntarily on lists of skeptics.

Wow, I actually want a source on that because if thats true the consensus fails.

Roy both numbers are off http://wattsupwiththat.com...

Very objective site ya got there.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
darkkermit
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9/16/2012 4:27:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 4:18:12 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 9/16/2012 4:03:30 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 9/16/2012 10:05:47 AM, MouthWash wrote:
At 9/13/2012 11:45:28 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 9/13/2012 11:43:19 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 9/12/2012 8:48:12 AM, KuriouserNKuriouser wrote:
You're committing a logical fallacy called the Appeal to Authority. 97-98% of well published climatologists agree that humans are a significant cause of global warming. There is no controversy in the field of experts. You can't quote any scientist from any field of science and have their opinion matter. They have to specialize in the applicable field.

There are only about 1000 genuine climate scientists in the world. About 400 are voluntarily on lists of skeptics.

Wow, I actually want a source on that because if thats true the consensus fails.

Roy both numbers are off http://wattsupwiththat.com...

Very objective site ya got there.

it links to other more objective sites......
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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9/16/2012 4:35:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The funniest part about that website is that it quotes physicists and other non- Earth science scientists about their dissent on global warming.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
darkkermit
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9/16/2012 4:48:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 4:35:31 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The funniest part about that website is that it quotes physicists and other non- Earth science scientists about their dissent on global warming.

climate change scientists consist of a diverse group of people including physicists. I'd be hard press to see if there are many pHD programs in global warming and how long these programs have existed. Older people studying this phenomena probably didn't have pHDs in climate science. Its likely they have physics and chemistry pHDs.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
16kadams
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9/17/2012 2:49:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/16/2012 4:48:07 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 9/16/2012 4:35:31 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The funniest part about that website is that it quotes physicists and other non- Earth science scientists about their dissent on global warming.

climate change scientists consist of a diverse group of people including physicists. I'd be hard press to see if there are many pHD programs in global warming and how long these programs have existed. Older people studying this phenomena probably didn't have pHDs in climate science. Its likely they have physics and chemistry pHDs.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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9/20/2012 7:13:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/4/2012 8:45:19 AM, judasmaccabaeus wrote:
+ Is Global Warming a Fact? +

What is concisely referred to as global warming, is a fatal mistake of the present time.

- V"clav Klaus

In the beginning, only a few certain individuals were actually skeptical of Global Warming. Numerous scientific and political authorities had already reached a consensus that Global Warming was caused by man, and presented a eminent danger to both human civilization and planet Earth itself. At the time, the few brave critics of this 'consensus' were roundly ridiculed by the powers that be, which included a substantial number of reputable journalists. Indeed, the news media accepted Global Warming without question. Now, in the second decade of the third millenium, those few global warming 'deniers' may well have been right after all and they have been joined by a growing number of scientists in their skepticism that the Earth is experiencing unprecendented increases in temperature due to man-made activity. At least two national figures, one a politician, the other an economist, have gone so far as to deem Global Warming as a hoax, a fraud that should be 'denied' by all concerned. Their statements read as follows:

Private industry and governments around the world have spent trillions of dollars in the name of saving our planet from manmade global warming....Mounting evidence suggests that claims of manmade global warming might turn out to be the greatest hoax in mankind's history.

- Walter E. Williams

With all of the hysteria, all of the fear, all of the phony science, could it be that man-made global warming is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people? It sure sounds like it.

- James M. Inhofe

Far more troubling is the increasing understanding among at least some observers that Global Warming was, is, and will continue to be an actual scientific mistake, a deliberate attempt to prove something that just was not true at all. Call it a fraud or a scandal, or perhaps even an honest mistake. Regardless of the labels, a growing number of actual scientists are voicing their increasing concern over the so-called 'science' of Global Warming. These experts have some particulary harsh criticism concerning this subject, which was, until recently, considered by many to be a scientific 'fact', an 'inconvenient truth' in the words of one of the most famous environmental activists- former Vice President Albert Gore, Jr. Here is what at least some scientists have to say most recently about Global Warming:

[Global Warming is] the biggest ever scientific fraud.

- Andrei Kapitsa

Global warming is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist.

- Harold Lewis

[Global Warming is] worst scientific scandal in the history.... When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.

- Dr. Kiminori Itoh

Global warming -- at least the modern nightmare vision -- is a myth. I am sure of it and so are a growing number of scientists. But what is really worrying is that the world's politicians and policy makers are not.

- David Bellamy

Global warming is indeed a scam, perpetrated by scientists with vested interests, but in need of crash courses in geology, logic and the philosophy of science.

- Martin Keeley

To put it bluntly, the great man-made global warming catastrophe that was predicted has been canceled! And that is a victory for science.

- Marc Moran

These are some fairly strong words, coming from a diverse array of individuals who seem to know what they are talking about. It seems that the scientific 'consensus' concerning Global Warming is actually non-existent as more and more of the public have begun to have serious doubts about its actual validity.

When last polled, 97% of Climatologists accepted Global warming and 82% accept that humans are a significant contributor to Global climate change.

source: http://news.mongabay.com...

As far as we can tell the consensus on Global warming is still overwhelmingly in support of anthropogenic Global Warming.

The most comprehensive scientific report on the matter conducted by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, concluded that Human activity contributes significantly to Climate Change. No such study approaching the level of detail or comprehensiveness as the IPCC report has found evidence that would contradict their findings.
16kadams
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9/20/2012 11:23:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 7:13:52 PM, Polaris wrote:
At 9/4/2012 8:45:19 AM, judasmaccabaeus wrote:
+ Is Global Warming a Fact? +

What is concisely referred to as global warming, is a fatal mistake of the present time.

- V"clav Klaus

In the beginning, only a few certain individuals were actually skeptical of Global Warming. Numerous scientific and political authorities had already reached a consensus that Global Warming was caused by man, and presented a eminent danger to both human civilization and planet Earth itself. At the time, the few brave critics of this 'consensus' were roundly ridiculed by the powers that be, which included a substantial number of reputable journalists. Indeed, the news media accepted Global Warming without question. Now, in the second decade of the third millenium, those few global warming 'deniers' may well have been right after all and they have been joined by a growing number of scientists in their skepticism that the Earth is experiencing unprecendented increases in temperature due to man-made activity. At least two national figures, one a politician, the other an economist, have gone so far as to deem Global Warming as a hoax, a fraud that should be 'denied' by all concerned. Their statements read as follows:

Private industry and governments around the world have spent trillions of dollars in the name of saving our planet from manmade global warming....Mounting evidence suggests that claims of manmade global warming might turn out to be the greatest hoax in mankind's history.

- Walter E. Williams

With all of the hysteria, all of the fear, all of the phony science, could it be that man-made global warming is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people? It sure sounds like it.

- James M. Inhofe

Far more troubling is the increasing understanding among at least some observers that Global Warming was, is, and will continue to be an actual scientific mistake, a deliberate attempt to prove something that just was not true at all. Call it a fraud or a scandal, or perhaps even an honest mistake. Regardless of the labels, a growing number of actual scientists are voicing their increasing concern over the so-called 'science' of Global Warming. These experts have some particulary harsh criticism concerning this subject, which was, until recently, considered by many to be a scientific 'fact', an 'inconvenient truth' in the words of one of the most famous environmental activists- former Vice President Albert Gore, Jr. Here is what at least some scientists have to say most recently about Global Warming:

[Global Warming is] the biggest ever scientific fraud.

- Andrei Kapitsa

Global warming is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist.

- Harold Lewis

[Global Warming is] worst scientific scandal in the history.... When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.

- Dr. Kiminori Itoh

Global warming -- at least the modern nightmare vision -- is a myth. I am sure of it and so are a growing number of scientists. But what is really worrying is that the world's politicians and policy makers are not.

- David Bellamy

Global warming is indeed a scam, perpetrated by scientists with vested interests, but in need of crash courses in geology, logic and the philosophy of science.

- Martin Keeley

To put it bluntly, the great man-made global warming catastrophe that was predicted has been canceled! And that is a victory for science.

- Marc Moran

These are some fairly strong words, coming from a diverse array of individuals who seem to know what they are talking about. It seems that the scientific 'consensus' concerning Global Warming is actually non-existent as more and more of the public have begun to have serious doubts about its actual validity.

When last polled, 97% of Climatologists accepted Global warming and 82% accept that humans are a significant contributor to Global climate change.

source: http://news.mongabay.com...

As far as we can tell the consensus on Global warming is still overwhelmingly in support of anthropogenic Global Warming.

The most comprehensive scientific report on the matter conducted by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, concluded that Human activity contributes significantly to Climate Change. No such study approaching the level of detail or comprehensiveness as the IPCC report has found evidence that would contradict their findings.

1. Science does NOT operate by consensus
2. Other polls indicate the number is closer to 88% (12% dissent is HUGE)
3. 1000 scientists oppose global warming is man-made http://www.climatedepot.com...
4. The IPCC is biased, a fraud, and subject to review by governments. Climategate shows they are dishonest and hide data. they had to fake data to prove it has warmed in the past 10 years (it has not). And CO2 still rises!
5. [video]
6. NIPCC http://nipccreport.org...
7. 1000 studies dissent man-made global warming http://www.populartechnology.net...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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9/21/2012 12:58:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 11:23:10 PM, 16kadams wrote:

1. Science does NOT operate by consensus

The level of expert support is indicative of the level of evidential support. Generally speaking the more evidence something has the larger number of experts would be inclined to agree with it. Climate scientists being on the forefront, and having the greatest accessibility have a more comprehensive understanding of what the evidence points to than you or I. We cannot be experts on everything or be knowledgeable in every field so we must defer to the overall expert opinion.

2. Other polls indicate the number is closer to 88% (12% dissent is HUGE)

Even a lower 88% if true is still quite tremendous. There really isn't much argument in siding against the vast majority of the experts. We wouldn't act against medical advice given to us by the vast majority of medical experts, would we? So how can we be justified in doing so in regards to climate?

3. 1000 scientists oppose global warming is man-made http://www.climatedepot.com...

The Inhofe list, which you are referring to is fraudulent. The list is contains numerous duplicate names. It contains non-experts like Electrical engineers, psychologists and other scientists who have no academic training in climate science. The Imhofe list contains scientists who have asked to have their names removed, while still being included in the total number. The list recycles names from previous fraudulent lists.

http://greenfyre.wordpress.com...

4. The IPCC is biased, a fraud, and subject to review by governments.

One does not dismiss a scientific study by accusing it of bias. The IPCC report is the most comprehensive study to date on the subject matter, and combines at least 40 years of various studies collected by various agencies across the would. It utilizes tree ring data, as well as ice-cores, raw thermometer data, and a few other sources all of which show that show the same climate trend within a small margin of error. These likewise mirror CO2 and methane samples. The evidence is quite compelling.

Climategate shows they are dishonest and hide data. they had to fake data to prove it has warmed in the past 10 years (it has not).

The climate-gate firestorm resulted in Five separate and independent investigations into accusations of data manipulation. All five investigations came to the same conclusion. None of the investigations found any evidence of data manipulation, and the accused researchers were exonerated. The controversy was sparked by a single E-mail that was taken out of context. However the innocence of these researchers didn't make headlines like the supposed scandal did.

You can read the full report here: https://docs.google.com...

5. [video]

This video doesn't address the evidence, it's premise is based on a fallacy. That being the appeal to motive, fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

6. NIPCC http://nipccreport.org...

We can both cite websites all day, but this doesn't advance the argument at all.

7. 1000 studies dissent man-made global warming http://www.populartechnology.net...

I don't have the time to look through each and every one of these, but if the first few are any indication, these are simply studies falsely labeled as disputing global warming.

This one for instance: http://www-eaps.mit.edu...
Doesn't dispute global warming at all. It's not even a "peer-reviewed paper" it's a scientific bulletin for some meteorological organization, but the message of it was that the exact affect of CO2 isn't truly known, and that if we did know there wouldn't be much we could do about it. I simply picked this one at random, so it doesn't give me hope that the others show what it is claimed they show. I suspect that nearly all are being mislabeled.
Lordknukle
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9/21/2012 1:52:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 11:23:10 PM, 16kadams wrote:
: 1. Science does NOT operate by consensus
2. Other polls indicate the number is closer to 88% (12% dissent is HUGE)
3. 1000 scientists oppose global warming is man-made
http://www.climatedepot.com...
4. The IPCC is biased, a fraud, and subject to review by governments. Climategate shows they are dishonest and hide data. they had to fake data to prove it has warmed in the past 10 years (it has not). And CO2 still rises!
5. [video]
6. NIPCC http://nipccreport.org...
7. 1000 studies dissent man-made global warming http://www.populartechnology.net...

Oh, the hypocrisy.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
emospongebob527
Posts: 790
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10/1/2012 8:03:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Being that I'm a realist, Global Warming is very much fact.
"not to toot my own horn (it aint need no tooin if u know what im saying), but my writings on "viciousness: the one true viture (fancy spelling for virtue)" and my poem "A poem I wrote about DDO" put me in a class of my damn own. im just an UNRECONGIZED geniuse" -bananafana