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Do magnets do work?

pozessed
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11/30/2012 1:15:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Is magnetism using perpetual energy to do work?

Where does that energy come from?

Can we harness it for cheaper more efficient energy sources than we use now?
pozessed
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11/30/2012 1:20:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/30/2012 1:15:00 PM, pozessed wrote:
Is magnetism using perpetual energy to do work?

Where does that energy come from?

Can we harness it for cheaper more efficient energy sources than we use now?

I don't mean to use perpetual as "infinite". I meant to use it as "self sustaining", but after looking at the definition I realized I used the word in the wrong context.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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11/30/2012 1:28:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/30/2012 1:15:00 PM, pozessed wrote:
Is magnetism using perpetual energy to do work?

Where does that energy come from?

Can we harness it for cheaper more efficient energy sources than we use now?

If you mean the energy between two permanent magnets, that's potential energy.

In engineering, magnetic fields are created through electric current, and the magnetic fields can be used to do work. However, the electric current requires an energy source.
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pozessed
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11/30/2012 1:55:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/30/2012 1:28:13 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/30/2012 1:15:00 PM, pozessed wrote:
In engineering, magnetic fields are created through electric current, and the magnetic fields can be used to do work. However, the electric current requires an energy source.
I'm asking if magnetism is constantly doing work.
If you have a magnet set on a wooden table, it is not doing any visible work.

Yet if you put a magnet on a piece of metal, the magnet will grip that metal until it is forced away from it.

Is the magnet considered to be doing work?
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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11/30/2012 2:08:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/30/2012 1:55:23 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/30/2012 1:28:13 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/30/2012 1:15:00 PM, pozessed wrote:
In engineering, magnetic fields are created through electric current, and the magnetic fields can be used to do work. However, the electric current requires an energy source.
I'm asking if magnetism is constantly doing work.
If you have a magnet set on a wooden table, it is not doing any visible work.

Yet if you put a magnet on a piece of metal, the magnet will grip that metal until it is forced away from it.

Is the magnet considered to be doing work?

No. An object has to move in order for work to be occuring. Work = Force*distance. No movement, no work.
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pozessed
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11/30/2012 3:22:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/30/2012 2:08:22 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/30/2012 1:55:23 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/30/2012 1:28:13 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/30/2012 1:15:00 PM, pozessed wrote:
In engineering, magnetic fields are created through electric current, and the magnetic fields can be used to do work. However, the electric current requires an energy source.
I'm asking if magnetism is constantly doing work.
If you have a magnet set on a wooden table, it is not doing any visible work.

Yet if you put a magnet on a piece of metal, the magnet will grip that metal until it is forced away from it.

Is the magnet considered to be doing work?

No. An object has to move in order for work to be occuring. Work = Force*distance. No movement, no work.

maybe work needs a better definition then, because I couldn't physically hold my own weight against gravity without physical exertion a fraction of time that magnets can.
pozessed
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11/30/2012 3:23:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/30/2012 2:55:15 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
For the same reason that gravity acting on my butt does not equal work.

That just means it doesn't fall into tour definition of work, that doesn't mean it's nt doing work.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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11/30/2012 3:46:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/30/2012 3:22:51 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/30/2012 2:08:22 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/30/2012 1:55:23 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/30/2012 1:28:13 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/30/2012 1:15:00 PM, pozessed wrote:
In engineering, magnetic fields are created through electric current, and the magnetic fields can be used to do work. However, the electric current requires an energy source.
I'm asking if magnetism is constantly doing work.
If you have a magnet set on a wooden table, it is not doing any visible work.

Yet if you put a magnet on a piece of metal, the magnet will grip that metal until it is forced away from it.

Is the magnet considered to be doing work?

No. An object has to move in order for work to be occuring. Work = Force*distance. No movement, no work.

maybe work needs a better definition then, because I couldn't physically hold my own weight against gravity without physical exertion a fraction of time that magnets can.

that's the definition of work. You asked if it does work. It doesn't and now your saying the definition of work should be changed :/. There's no "should" for words. They just have meaning based on consensus. You change the scientific definition of work and then you fvcked up all the scientific literature, because they all use this definition explicitly
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darkkermit
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11/30/2012 3:53:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think your confusing work with force. Forces are always acting upon one another, but in equilibrium the force acting on a rigid object balance to 0 so that no work occurs. So while there might be a force of 7 Newtons in one direction, there's a force of 7 newtons on the other direction. Hence 0 work.

Force =/= Work.
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pozessed
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11/30/2012 4:17:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/30/2012 3:46:58 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/30/2012 3:22:51 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/30/2012 2:08:22 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/30/2012 1:55:23 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/30/2012 1:28:13 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/30/2012 1:15:00 PM, pozessed wrote:
In engineering, magnetic fields are created through electric current, and the magnetic fields can be used to do work. However, the electric current requires an energy source.
I'm asking if magnetism is constantly doing work.
If you have a magnet set on a wooden table, it is not doing any visible work.

Yet if you put a magnet on a piece of metal, the magnet will grip that metal until it is forced away from it.

Is the magnet considered to be doing work?

No. An object has to move in order for work to be occuring. Work = Force*distance. No movement, no work.

maybe work needs a better definition then, because I couldn't physically hold my own weight against gravity without physical exertion a fraction of time that magnets can.

that's the definition of work. You asked if it does work. It doesn't and now your saying the definition of work should be changed :/. There's no "should" for words. They just have meaning based on consensus. You change the scientific definition of work and then you fvcked up all the scientific literature, because they all use this definition explicitly

I'm sorry, I don't mean to frustrate you. I am asking because I am naive.
I am just trying to find out why magnetic force isn't considered work.

Is it considered work when the magnet pulls itself from one point to another due to attraction?
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
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11/30/2012 4:19:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/30/2012 3:53:30 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I think your confusing work with force. Forces are always acting upon one another, but in equilibrium the force acting on a rigid object balance to 0 so that no work occurs. So while there might be a force of 7 Newtons in one direction, there's a force of 7 newtons on the other direction. Hence 0 work.

Force =/= Work.

From what I gather you are saying force equals the potential of work?
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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11/30/2012 4:24:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Magnetism occurs through the transfer of electrons between atoms. This causes a sort of shared mass which pulls them together.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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11/30/2012 6:09:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/30/2012 4:19:05 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/30/2012 3:53:30 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I think your confusing work with force. Forces are always acting upon one another, but in equilibrium the force acting on a rigid object balance to 0 so that no work occurs. So while there might be a force of 7 Newtons in one direction, there's a force of 7 newtons on the other direction. Hence 0 work.

Force =/= Work.

From what I gather you are saying force equals the potential of work?

No, force is force. Potential is potential. Work is work.

They're connected though.

Work can be converted to potential energy, and vice versa.

Work is force times distance. No movement, no work is done.
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pozessed
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11/30/2012 7:27:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/30/2012 6:09:03 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/30/2012 4:19:05 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/30/2012 3:53:30 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I think your confusing work with force. Forces are always acting upon one another, but in equilibrium the force acting on a rigid object balance to 0 so that no work occurs. So while there might be a force of 7 Newtons in one direction, there's a force of 7 newtons on the other direction. Hence 0 work.

Force =/= Work.

From what I gather you are saying force equals the potential of work?

No, force is force. Potential is potential. Work is work.

They're connected though.

Work can be converted to potential energy, and vice versa.

Work is force times distance. No movement, no work is done.

Ok, but what is the magnetic force considered to be doing if it is not defined as work?
Even though a magnet is not moving its magnetic force will make the magnet attract and grip to a fridge.

What does science define that "attraction and grip" to be seeing as its not force and its not work?
Is that still potential energy even though its not between two magnets? The only reason I made my assumptions the way I did is because your first post said "between magnets", you didn't include ordinary magnetic attraction.
darkkermit
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11/30/2012 8:01:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/30/2012 7:27:59 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/30/2012 6:09:03 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 11/30/2012 4:19:05 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 11/30/2012 3:53:30 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I think your confusing work with force. Forces are always acting upon one another, but in equilibrium the force acting on a rigid object balance to 0 so that no work occurs. So while there might be a force of 7 Newtons in one direction, there's a force of 7 newtons on the other direction. Hence 0 work.

Force =/= Work.

From what I gather you are saying force equals the potential of work?

No, force is force. Potential is potential. Work is work.

They're connected though.

Work can be converted to potential energy, and vice versa.

Work is force times distance. No movement, no work is done.

Ok, but what is the magnetic force considered to be doing if it is not defined as work?

Bit of a loaded question. Can't really do anything.
Definition of force is mass times acceleration.

Even though a magnet is not moving its magnetic force will make the magnet attract and grip to a fridge.

Yes, the magnetic force causes the magnet to be attracted to the fridge. Yet it isn't work. There's a difference. Attractive forces exist everywhere. Your body stays together due to attractive forces. The fridge stays together deue to attractive forces. The magnet stays together due to attractive forces, and so forth.

It takes energy to remove the magnet from the fridge. This creates potential energy. If you were to let go, then the magnet will fly to the wall, creating kinetic energy. Once the magnet hits the wall, it will come to a stop, causing thermal energy and sound waves energy to occur, thus so that energy is conserved.

Forces are related to energy, but its a mistake to think force = energy.

What does science define that "attraction and grip" to be seeing as its not force and its not work?

Forces keep materials resilient to separation. You stay on the ground due to gravity.

Is that still potential energy even though its not between two magnets? The only reason I made my assumptions the way I did is because your first post said "between magnets", you didn't include ordinary magnetic attraction.

Potential energy exists in a lot of situation. There's potential energy between two objects based on gravitational pull. There's potential energy in the form of chemical potential
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Muted
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11/30/2012 8:59:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/30/2012 4:24:57 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Magnetism occurs through the transfer of electrons between atoms. This causes a sort of shared mass which pulls them together.



If you then harness the energy....it goes bye bye. :D
Exterminate!!!!!!-Dalek.

The ability to speak does not make you a competent debater.

One does not simply do the rain dance.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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12/1/2012 2:59:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The entirety of industry as we know it is pretty much predicated on magnetism. Also, no. Magnets will come to a state of rest, unexcited. We're still stuck converting less energy into more.
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