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Kicking it on mars..u know

Df0512
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12/11/2012 2:29:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here an interesting article if you havn't already seen it. http://www.theregister.co.uk...

There even talk now of possible terraforming mars in the future. Here is my question. Do you think it is possible to colonize Mars? More specifically: do you think we will thrive there? Lets say we do terraform it. Do you think humans will be able to survive there mentally, physically?
slo1
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12/11/2012 2:42:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I wrote a paper on this in 1989 and according to that paper we were supposed to be there by now with a permanent colony.

I do believe it to be possible. I have to admit though, having good access to water and an atmosphere sure does help with the thriving piece.

I think the technology to thrive like living on earth is long away. Earth is really a special place. Just the magnetic field we have is pretty dang cool and necessary for life. Mars has one, but not from iron core and I'm not certain how well it stops the solar winds and radiation.

It is clear that there are a large amount of variables that have to be accounted for to thrive there. I think there will have to be a long duration of self contained colonies to fully understand and prep for growth before it is anything but a science experiment.
lewis20
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12/11/2012 2:45:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's doable, the technology that took us to the moon was like a calculator. Mars would be easy if we decided we wanted to go.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

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Df0512
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12/11/2012 2:46:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/11/2012 2:29:31 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Here an interesting article if you havn't already seen it. http://www.theregister.co.uk...

There even talk now of possible terraforming mars in the future. Here is my question. Do you think it is possible to colonize Mars? More specifically: do you think we will thrive there? Lets say we do terraform it. Do you think humans will be able to survive there mentally, physically?

Here is the actual article http://p10.hostingprod.com...
Df0512
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12/11/2012 2:48:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/11/2012 2:42:27 PM, slo1 wrote:
I wrote a paper on this in 1989 and according to that paper we were supposed to be there by now with a permanent colony.

I do believe it to be possible. I have to admit though, having good access to water and an atmosphere sure does help with the thriving piece.

I think the technology to thrive like living on earth is long away. Earth is really a special place. Just the magnetic field we have is pretty dang cool and necessary for life. Mars has one, but not from iron core and I'm not certain how well it stops the solar winds and radiation.

It is clear that there are a large amount of variables that have to be accounted for to thrive there. I think there will have to be a long duration of self contained colonies to fully understand and prep for growth before it is anything but a science experiment.

Did you write about the posible psychological implications of interplanetary traveling. Dont you think it would be hard to cope with such a dramatic event, like traveling to mars?
lewis20
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12/11/2012 3:09:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Supposedly a dutch company wants to make a reality tv show by sending people to live out the rest of their lives on Mars.
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com...
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
slo1
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12/11/2012 3:20:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/11/2012 2:48:59 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 12/11/2012 2:42:27 PM, slo1 wrote:
I wrote a paper on this in 1989 and according to that paper we were supposed to be there by now with a permanent colony.

I do believe it to be possible. I have to admit though, having good access to water and an atmosphere sure does help with the thriving piece.

I think the technology to thrive like living on earth is long away. Earth is really a special place. Just the magnetic field we have is pretty dang cool and necessary for life. Mars has one, but not from iron core and I'm not certain how well it stops the solar winds and radiation.

It is clear that there are a large amount of variables that have to be accounted for to thrive there. I think there will have to be a long duration of self contained colonies to fully understand and prep for growth before it is anything but a science experiment.

Did you write about the posible psychological implications of interplanetary traveling. Dont you think it would be hard to cope with such a dramatic event, like traveling to mars?

Seeing how the rovers take about 8 months to get there, i think that is the easy part. I imagine the stresses of being there is probably more than the travel bit.

Could you imagine going there with someone who thought they would like the experience, but ends up hating it or how about going with that air line pilot who lost his mind and the co-pilot had to lock him out of the cockpit.

That is all one needs on Mars is someone who is going to open the airlock for God. Lol.

Anyone who pioneers it will obviously need to be psychologically tested. It is too risky to bring along any ol' spoiled human. Personally, i would not go if just for that reason. I'm probably a good candidate to go mentally, but I don't trust anyone else.

The Russians have probably spent the most time testing the rigors of space travel on the human psyche. It clearly is one of the more challenging obstructions to overcome.

http://www.pbs.org...
Df0512
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12/12/2012 12:41:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2012 3:20:20 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 12/11/2012 2:48:59 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 12/11/2012 2:42:27 PM, slo1 wrote:
I wrote a paper on this in 1989 and according to that paper we were supposed to be there by now with a permanent colony.

I do believe it to be possible. I have to admit though, having good access to water and an atmosphere sure does help with the thriving piece.

I think the technology to thrive like living on earth is long away. Earth is really a special place. Just the magnetic field we have is pretty dang cool and necessary for life. Mars has one, but not from iron core and I'm not certain how well it stops the solar winds and radiation.

It is clear that there are a large amount of variables that have to be accounted for to thrive there. I think there will have to be a long duration of self contained colonies to fully understand and prep for growth before it is anything but a science experiment.

Did you write about the posible psychological implications of interplanetary traveling. Dont you think it would be hard to cope with such a dramatic event, like traveling to mars?

Seeing how the rovers take about 8 months to get there, i think that is the easy part. I imagine the stresses of being there is probably more than the travel bit.

Could you imagine going there with someone who thought they would like the experience, but ends up hating it or how about going with that air line pilot who lost his mind and the co-pilot had to lock him out of the cockpit.

That is all one needs on Mars is someone who is going to open the airlock for God. Lol.

Anyone who pioneers it will obviously need to be psychologically tested. It is too risky to bring along any ol' spoiled human. Personally, i would not go if just for that reason. I'm probably a good candidate to go mentally, but I don't trust anyone else.

The Russians have probably spent the most time testing the rigors of space travel on the human psyche. It clearly is one of the more challenging obstructions to overcome.

http://www.pbs.org...

You are probably right. I know for me, If I had that opportunity I would take it no questions asked.
drafterman
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12/12/2012 12:54:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think an inhibitor to long-term colonization would be the lack of magnetic field combined with a lower gravity; any established atmosphere would gradually be blown away by solar winds.

I also think that the conditions on mare are sufficiently different that any established human presence would eventually result in speciation.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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12/12/2012 2:11:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2012 3:09:08 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Supposedly a dutch company wants to make a reality tv show by sending people to live out the rest of their lives on Mars.
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com...

I totally want in.
Oryus
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12/12/2012 2:25:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 12:54:17 PM, drafterman wrote:
I think an inhibitor to long-term colonization would be the lack of magnetic field combined with a lower gravity; any established atmosphere would gradually be blown away by solar winds.

I also think that the conditions on mare are sufficiently different that any established human presence would eventually result in speciation.

That's what I was thinking... We have no idea of the kinds of evolutionary changes which would take place. No doubt, if there were a large scale emigration to mars, people would be dying there from unforeseen (or maybe foreseen) problems and those that lived and bred would be the first on their way to a new species unless we are able to do some major terraforming....
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
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: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
drafterman
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12/12/2012 2:41:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 2:25:53 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/12/2012 12:54:17 PM, drafterman wrote:
I think an inhibitor to long-term colonization would be the lack of magnetic field combined with a lower gravity; any established atmosphere would gradually be blown away by solar winds.

I also think that the conditions on mare are sufficiently different that any established human presence would eventually result in speciation.

That's what I was thinking... We have no idea of the kinds of evolutionary changes which would take place. No doubt, if there were a large scale emigration to mars, people would be dying there from unforeseen (or maybe foreseen) problems and those that lived and bred would be the first on their way to a new species unless we are able to do some major terraforming....

There are limits. The sheer difference in gravity (slightly more than 1/3rd) would not only A) drastically alter human development; but B) alter what would be considered "fit" in terms of any sort of selective pressures.

So, even if we completely terraformed mars, creating a habitable ecosystem, with in a few generations we should expect to see humans with significantly altered biologies, even perhaps significant differences in outward appearances (less bone density, possible).

Given the high cost of travel, and the fact that native-born human Marsians would find Earth gravity dangerous, the lack of regular genetic transfer as a result of Earth humans and Marsian humans intermingling would exacerbate the differences. Within, maybe, a few hundred years, I wouldn't be surprised if sexual reproduction between the two populations was considered to be infeasible.
Oryus
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12/12/2012 2:48:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 2:41:50 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/12/2012 2:25:53 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/12/2012 12:54:17 PM, drafterman wrote:
I think an inhibitor to long-term colonization would be the lack of magnetic field combined with a lower gravity; any established atmosphere would gradually be blown away by solar winds.

I also think that the conditions on mare are sufficiently different that any established human presence would eventually result in speciation.

That's what I was thinking... We have no idea of the kinds of evolutionary changes which would take place. No doubt, if there were a large scale emigration to mars, people would be dying there from unforeseen (or maybe foreseen) problems and those that lived and bred would be the first on their way to a new species unless we are able to do some major terraforming....

There are limits. The sheer difference in gravity (slightly more than 1/3rd) would not only A) drastically alter human development; but B) alter what would be considered "fit" in terms of any sort of selective pressures.

So, even if we completely terraformed mars, creating a habitable ecosystem, with in a few generations we should expect to see humans with significantly altered biologies, even perhaps significant differences in outward appearances (less bone density, possible).

Given the high cost of travel, and the fact that native-born human Marsians would find Earth gravity dangerous, the lack of regular genetic transfer as a result of Earth humans and Marsian humans intermingling would exacerbate the differences. Within, maybe, a few hundred years, I wouldn't be surprised if sexual reproduction between the two populations was considered to be infeasible.

Yeah, that's pretty insane to think about....

Well, we can't seem to find aliens.... Let's make our own!

Then there are the feelings of the first Martians... would they feel slighted at having their whole lives designated as an experiment? Would they just want to go back to Earth before it's too late?

Although, I think it would be much more than a couple of hundred years to cause speciation. It would be conceivable for Martians and earthlings (ha!) to have kids probably, but difficult simply due to the great cost of traveling between the two planets. It seems like it would be more impractical than impossible.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
drafterman
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12/12/2012 2:58:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The funky thing about speciation is that it doesn't necessarily require the impossibility of inbreeding. Consider lions and tigers, or horses and donkeys. They can inbreed but are still considered different species.

However, there is some scary potential:
1. Due to lower gravity, Martian humans would, on par, be physically weaker and more frail than Earth humans.
2. Due to lack of resources, Martian humans would be dependent on Earth for their very survival.
3. Because of #1 and #2, the average life-span of a human living on Mars is probably going to be significantly shorter. Not just because of the health effects of humans living in significantly low gravity, but also because of any instabilities in any artificial environment. Shorter lifespans will probably lead to earlier marriages/partnerships and shorter spans between generations.

All of the above will probably result in Martian humans being converted into a type of second-class citizen. This will add a social barrier to any other economic or biological barrier to inbreeding. Once inbreeding is taboo/infeasible/impossible, this will enhance any type of negative impression of Martian humans. They will go from second-class to dehumanized. This could very well lead to some form of oppression or neglect and rather than expanding the human race to the cosmos, we might very well be creating future competitors/enemies.
drafterman
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12/12/2012 2:59:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Once Martian humans become self-sufficient, their will probably be some form of revolution/independence movement. Consider what has been said and note parallels to the Colonization of America to the American Revolution.
lewis20
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12/12/2012 3:04:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 2:59:28 PM, drafterman wrote:
Once Martian humans become self-sufficient, their will probably be some form of revolution/independence movement. Consider what has been said and note parallels to the Colonization of America to the American Revolution.

What reason could they have for independence? It's not as if the US govt. will be taxing them or anything of the like. I also doubt it would be cost effective for Mars to export any of it's natural resources to earth.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Oryus
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12/12/2012 3:14:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 2:58:09 PM, drafterman wrote:
The funky thing about speciation is that it doesn't necessarily require the impossibility of inbreeding. Consider lions and tigers, or horses and donkeys. They can inbreed but are still considered different species.

They can interbreed, but they don't produce viable offspring. Mules and ligers are almost always sterile, creating a dead-end.

However, there is some scary potential:
1. Due to lower gravity, Martian humans would, on par, be physically weaker and more frail than Earth humans.
2. Due to lack of resources, Martian humans would be dependent on Earth for their very survival.
3. Because of #1 and #2, the average life-span of a human living on Mars is probably going to be significantly shorter. Not just because of the health effects of humans living in significantly low gravity, but also because of any instabilities in any artificial environment. Shorter lifespans will probably lead to earlier marriages/partnerships and shorter spans between generations.

Yeah, their almost certainly lower lifespans would lower the amount of years it would take to create a martian species... Though I'm still not sure I buy it would only take a few hundred years. They would still be living in bases mimicking many characteristics of Earth and may end up stronger in other ways, like a great capacity to carry oxygen within the blood, or maybe more efficiently digesting what little nutrients are available to them. Perhaps after many generations, they may have a greater tolerance for the sun's rays.
All of the above will probably result in Martian humans being converted into a type of second-class citizen. This will add a social barrier to any other economic or biological barrier to inbreeding. Once inbreeding is taboo/infeasible/impossible, this will enhance any type of negative impression of Martian humans. They will go from second-class to dehumanized. This could very well lead to some form of oppression or neglect and rather than expanding the human race to the cosmos, we might very well be creating future competitors/enemies.

At 12/12/2012 2:59:28 PM, drafterman wrote:
Once Martian humans become self-sufficient, their will probably be some form of revolution/independence movement. Consider what has been said and note parallels to the Colonization of America to the American Revolution.

Yes, it seems really likely that there would be some kind of rebellion... They would probably feel slighted for having been designated an experiment with no great ability to make changes in their lives, as they would be entirely dependent on the organizations which run whatever base they may be living on.

At this point, it seems like there are more ethical issues involved in this than matters of practicality... which are numerous, to say the least. lol
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
drafterman
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12/12/2012 3:32:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 3:04:50 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/12/2012 2:59:28 PM, drafterman wrote:
Once Martian humans become self-sufficient, their will probably be some form of revolution/independence movement. Consider what has been said and note parallels to the Colonization of America to the American Revolution.

What reason could they have for independence? It's not as if the US govt. will be taxing them or anything of the like.

Uhm... of course they would. Let's say NASA establishes the first self-sustainable human base on Mars. Those people would be employees of NASA and, hence, the US government. They would be getting normal paychecks from the US government and taxed accordingly.

However, such a presence will, as it grows, require some form of local self-governance. As those people chance, biologically and socially, and as there are native-borns who identify as Martian humans (rather than Earth-humans-on-Mars) there will be a disconnect between that government and the one on Earth.

The self-identification will be a seed for Nationalism and there will naturally be a desire to self-govern independently, as opposed to some colony or state of some distance, uninterested land. While I think this will be enough to result in a push for independence, there will be a likely catalyst in some issue important to Mars that is ignored or dismissed by the Earth-based government.

The group on Mars is unlikely to have any significant sway in any Earth government, so an issue that is important to them but not to Earth will probably not get the attention it deserves. All it will take is some Earth official to dismiss or veto it, and the Martian humans will then simply take matters into their own hands and rule themselves.

I also doubt it would be cost effective for Mars to export any of it's natural resources to earth.
Oryus
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12/12/2012 3:47:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 3:32:37 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 12/12/2012 3:04:50 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/12/2012 2:59:28 PM, drafterman wrote:
Once Martian humans become self-sufficient, their will probably be some form of revolution/independence movement. Consider what has been said and note parallels to the Colonization of America to the American Revolution.

What reason could they have for independence? It's not as if the US govt. will be taxing them or anything of the like.

Uhm... of course they would. Let's say NASA establishes the first self-sustainable human base on Mars. Those people would be employees of NASA and, hence, the US government. They would be getting normal paychecks from the US government and taxed accordingly.

However, such a presence will, as it grows, require some form of local self-governance. As those people chance, biologically and socially, and as there are native-borns who identify as Martian humans (rather than Earth-humans-on-Mars) there will be a disconnect between that government and the one on Earth.

The self-identification will be a seed for Nationalism and there will naturally be a desire to self-govern independently, as opposed to some colony or state of some distance, uninterested land. While I think this will be enough to result in a push for independence, there will be a likely catalyst in some issue important to Mars that is ignored or dismissed by the Earth-based government.

The group on Mars is unlikely to have any significant sway in any Earth government, so an issue that is important to them but not to Earth will probably not get the attention it deserves. All it will take is some Earth official to dismiss or veto it, and the Martian humans will then simply take matters into their own hands and rule themselves.

I also doubt it would be cost effective for Mars to export any of it's natural resources to earth.

And then the Martians will create greater technologies, travel across galaxy, return, destroy the Earth out of vengeance, claim it as their own, and chase down the remaining Earthlings who survived in space until they concede or die.

Yeah, that's the premise for Battlestar Galactica. What of it?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
lewis20
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12/12/2012 6:02:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 4:08:37 PM, drafterman wrote:
As an aside, lewis, how did you imagine that they could be not independent, yet also not taxed?

You're kidding right? What are we going to throw an IRS base up there? Maybe have auditors fly back and forth with cash? A base on Mars would transcend national politics and economics and would look nothing like the American colonies.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
drafterman
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12/12/2012 6:10:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 6:02:05 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 12/12/2012 4:08:37 PM, drafterman wrote:
As an aside, lewis, how did you imagine that they could be not independent, yet also not taxed?

You're kidding right?

No.

What are we going to throw an IRS base up there?

Why would we need to?

Maybe have auditors fly back and forth with cash?

You do realize that everything the IRS does, even today, can be done electronically, right?

If and when we establish a base on Mars, how do you imagine those people will be paid? We're certainly not sending a Mint and a Bank up there with them. It'll be all done here, electronically, and their taxes will be taken out of their paycheck, here on Earth.

What I question is why you think we'd just stop collecting taxes from them.

A base on Mars would transcend national politics and economics and would look nothing like the American colonies.

I certainly didn't say it was identical, just that there were parallels.
royalpaladin
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12/12/2012 6:52:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
LOL, I'm not even on the mission and I'm already thinking about myself as Martian xD.

I don't think rebellions are really possible. It's likely they would depend on Earth for survival.
Oryus
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12/12/2012 7:00:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 6:52:33 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, I'm not even on the mission and I'm already thinking about myself as Martian xD.

I don't think rebellions are really possible. It's likely they would depend on Earth for survival.

yeah, I think drafter said that they would probably rebel after they became self-sufficient.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
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12/12/2012 7:01:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 7:00:17 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/12/2012 6:52:33 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, I'm not even on the mission and I'm already thinking about myself as Martian xD.

I don't think rebellions are really possible. It's likely they would depend on Earth for survival.

yeah, I think drafter said that they would probably rebel after they became self-sufficient.

Really, they could probably still rebel while they were dependent. They would have access to an extremely expensive facility that many important, wealthy people have high stakes in.... They would have some leverage and could probably unionize to get what they want.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
royalpaladin
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12/12/2012 8:40:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 7:01:38 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/12/2012 7:00:17 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/12/2012 6:52:33 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, I'm not even on the mission and I'm already thinking about myself as Martian xD.

I don't think rebellions are really possible. It's likely they would depend on Earth for survival.

yeah, I think drafter said that they would probably rebel after they became self-sufficient.

Really, they could probably still rebel while they were dependent. They would have access to an extremely expensive facility that many important, wealthy people have high stakes in.... They would have some leverage and could probably unionize to get what they want.

I don't think we would let them become self-sufficient. There would probably be a way to control the facilities from Earth to shut them down in the event that they rebel.
Df0512
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12/13/2012 9:46:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 8:40:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/12/2012 7:01:38 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/12/2012 7:00:17 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/12/2012 6:52:33 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, I'm not even on the mission and I'm already thinking about myself as Martian xD.

I don't think rebellions are really possible. It's likely they would depend on Earth for survival.

yeah, I think drafter said that they would probably rebel after they became self-sufficient.

Really, they could probably still rebel while they were dependent. They would have access to an extremely expensive facility that many important, wealthy people have high stakes in.... They would have some leverage and could probably unionize to get what they want.

I don't think we would let them become self-sufficient. There would probably be a way to control the facilities from Earth to shut them down in the event that they rebel.

That would be an interesting development. An independent nation living on mars. They would have to find some way to farm with the soil they have. I thin kthat would be the most difficult part.
lewis20
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12/13/2012 10:07:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/13/2012 9:46:28 AM, Df0512 wrote:
At 12/12/2012 8:40:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 12/12/2012 7:01:38 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/12/2012 7:00:17 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 12/12/2012 6:52:33 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, I'm not even on the mission and I'm already thinking about myself as Martian xD.

I don't think rebellions are really possible. It's likely they would depend on Earth for survival.

yeah, I think drafter said that they would probably rebel after they became self-sufficient.

Really, they could probably still rebel while they were dependent. They would have access to an extremely expensive facility that many important, wealthy people have high stakes in.... They would have some leverage and could probably unionize to get what they want.

I don't think we would let them become self-sufficient. There would probably be a way to control the facilities from Earth to shut them down in the event that they rebel.

That would be an interesting development. An independent nation living on mars. They would have to find some way to farm with the soil they have. I thin kthat would be the most difficult part.

They'd have to find all the resources to sustain hydroponic grow houses. Extracting nitrogen or whatever nutrients are in hydroponic plant food.
Oh and water.
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