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Consciousness thought experiment!

dylancatlow
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2/18/2013 12:55:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Imagine I could delete a person's atoms completely and then put them back together instantly 5 seconds later. Would that person experience it as nothing happening? Would their consciousness carry over?
Smithereens
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2/18/2013 2:59:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:55:22 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine I could delete a person's atoms completely and then put them back together instantly 5 seconds later. Would that person experience it as nothing happening? Would their consciousness carry over?

If you know what the mind is and how it exists, I suppose you would know the results.
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dylancatlow
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2/18/2013 9:46:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 2:59:50 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:55:22 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine I could delete a person's atoms completely and then put them back together instantly 5 seconds later. Would that person experience it as nothing happening? Would their consciousness carry over?

If you know what the mind is and how it exists, I suppose you would know the results.

The main question question would be, if you were that person, would you notice a change?
Ramshutu
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2/18/2013 12:00:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:55:22 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine I could delete a person's atoms completely and then put them back together instantly 5 seconds later. Would that person experience it as nothing happening? Would their consciousness carry over?

I think the evidence so far leads me to beleive it would.

There are some really neat brain disorders and studies of particular types of brain damage that most of what makes you you is down to the physical properties of your brain, rather than something ephemeral.
APB
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3/29/2013 10:16:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:55:22 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine I could delete a person's atoms completely and then put them back together instantly 5 seconds later. Would that person experience it as nothing happening? Would their consciousness carry over?

"Consciousness" has no meaning without a brain, so it's like asking if my shirt would carry its blue colour over.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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3/29/2013 10:20:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
My big question would be: what if you copied yourself in this manner? For the instance that the various brains were identical, would your consciousness exist in them simultaneously? Once they started to change and diverge, which one would remain 'you' and what would happen to the remainders? It raises some interesting thoughts about the nature of consciousness.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
phantom
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3/29/2013 11:34:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/29/2013 10:20:01 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
My big question would be: what if you copied yourself in this manner? For the instance that the various brains were identical, would your consciousness exist in them simultaneously? Once they started to change and diverge, which one would remain 'you' and what would happen to the remainders? It raises some interesting thoughts about the nature of consciousness.

And from there you have to wander what would happen if sometime in the future after you're dead, a mind arose with the exact same neurological order as yours was. Would it be you? If identity is brought about by the material properties of our brain, it should seem the same identity should arise again if even after you died, the exact same states arose in another mind. (Well that would be nice at least)

And if there are an infinite amount of alternative universes, there should be an infinite amount of minds and thus an infinite amount of minds exactly like yours and so magnify your thought experiment to an infinite amount of copies rather than just one.
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slo1
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4/5/2013 11:08:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:55:22 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine I could delete a person's atoms completely and then put them back together instantly 5 seconds later. Would that person experience it as nothing happening? Would their consciousness carry over?

If I whacked you over the head and knocked you out for 5 minutes so you lost consciousness, when you woke up would you think nothing had happened and would your consciousness carry over?

How do you even know what you experience is even consciousness and not just stored memories as a function of your brain structure? Are you even conscious when the ability of the brain to store memories is not functioning? IE: coma?

What exactly are you defining as consciousness?
dylancatlow
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4/5/2013 11:15:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/29/2013 10:20:01 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
My big question would be: what if you copied yourself in this manner? For the instance that the various brains were identical, would your consciousness exist in them simultaneously? Once they started to change and diverge, which one would remain 'you' and what would happen to the remainders? It raises some interesting thoughts about the nature of consciousness.

Very interesting thoughts indeed.

I had a similar question : what would happen if one's brain was split into two parts such that each half could function independently. Which side would one's consciousness 'follow.'
R0b1Billion
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4/6/2013 5:35:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Star Trek played this game quite a bit, using transporters to break the atoms apart and reassemble the "pattern" in some other location. I always thought it was laughable that, once someone was in the "pattern buffer," that you couldn't just make unlimited copies of them afterwards. Here's a brain-scratcher: if one were transported in such a way, and their molecules were split up in such a manner, would it be the equivalent of dying every time, followed by the creation of a brand-new person who simply has the memories of the past one?
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phantom
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4/6/2013 1:36:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/6/2013 10:23:30 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
That person would die. A replicated being with identical consciousness and memories would appear.

What do you mean by identical consciousness though? Identical consciousness sounds like the same identity, so the same person. So it sounds like he wouldn't actually die. Or at least, he'd die and then start living again.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
FREEDO
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4/6/2013 1:40:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
A person is never themselves from one moment to the next. Ego is an abstraction bound through memory.

In-fact, you do end up losing all of the atoms in your body during a lifetime. It should happen about every 7 or so years.
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Skepsikyma
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4/6/2013 1:47:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/6/2013 1:40:37 PM, FREEDO wrote:
A person is never themselves from one moment to the next. Ego is an abstraction bound through memory.

In-fact, you do end up losing all of the atoms in your body during a lifetime. It should happen about every 7 or so years.

Freedo is correct. The atoms aren't what's important, the arrangement at the neurological level is. Cells are what obtain a measure of permanence in the human body, not atomic composition, sort of in the way that a river stays in the same place but is always composed of different water molecules.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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4/6/2013 9:11:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/5/2013 11:15:14 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 3/29/2013 10:20:01 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
My big question would be: what if you copied yourself in this manner? For the instance that the various brains were identical, would your consciousness exist in them simultaneously? Once they started to change and diverge, which one would remain 'you' and what would happen to the remainders? It raises some interesting thoughts about the nature of consciousness.

Very interesting thoughts indeed.

I had a similar question : what would happen if one's brain was split into two parts such that each half could function independently. Which side would one's consciousness 'follow.'

I think there will be consciousness in both part of the brains. Like a twin, they almost have exactly the same brain yet both of them is conscious and exist as two independent person.

Actually I have brought up this in my discussion with philochristos. We are debating about the state of afterlife which I believed would be nothing as our memory, personality and consciousness is only existed in brain, without one we should not experience something more than a piece of rock. He claimed

" our mental states are in a constant state of change, but we maintain personal identity through these changes. I'm the same person now as I was a few minutes ago even though I was thinking about something completely different."

So I asked him what if we didn't? How do yo know that we are the same person as we are in a minute ago? What if I am just a copy of myself from a minute ago, who in turn is a copy of copy of copy of myself from the long past. You know, just like in programming, your program is in fact killed but is resurrected with the same copy of memory and character every time you shut down and restart the computer.
drhead
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4/9/2013 10:13:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/29/2013 10:20:01 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
My big question would be: what if you copied yourself in this manner? For the instance that the various brains were identical, would your consciousness exist in them simultaneously? Once they started to change and diverge, which one would remain 'you' and what would happen to the remainders? It raises some interesting thoughts about the nature of consciousness.

I think the uncertainty principle would take care of this. You couldn't accurately make a perfect copy of a brain. I'd wonder if it would be possible to gradually replace brain cells with something that lasts longer, yet would be able to emulate the cell's role while fully replacing it (also having any 'data storage' copied over). Doing that cell by cell. Would our consciousness stay there, or would replacing one specific cell result in us dying?
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TheAntidoter
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4/9/2013 12:34:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:55:22 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine I could delete a person's atoms completely and then put them back together instantly 5 seconds later. Would that person experience it as nothing happening? Would their consciousness carry over?

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drhead
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4/9/2013 3:02:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/9/2013 12:34:14 PM, TheAntidoter wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:55:22 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine I could delete a person's atoms completely and then put them back together instantly 5 seconds later. Would that person experience it as nothing happening? Would their consciousness carry over?

Go Choke on Mclogo.

Thank you for your valuable insight on this matter.
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"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
"There are no mental health benefits of atheism. It is devoid of rational thinking and mental protection." - Gabrian
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/11/2013 2:48:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/6/2013 1:36:49 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/6/2013 10:23:30 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
That person would die. A replicated being with identical consciousness and memories would appear.

What do you mean by identical consciousness though? Identical consciousness sounds like the same identity, so the same person. So it sounds like he wouldn't actually die. Or at least, he'd die and then start living again.

Identical doesn't mean the same, it means similar in every detail; exactly alike. If I have a coke can beside another coke can, they are identical, but that doesn't mean that coke can is the other coke can.
AlbinoBunny
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4/11/2013 2:52:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:55:22 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine I could delete a person's atoms completely and then put them back together instantly 5 seconds later. Would that person experience it as nothing happening? Would their consciousness carry over?

I believe, yes and yes.
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AlbinoBunny
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4/11/2013 2:54:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 9:46:10 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/18/2013 2:59:50 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:55:22 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine I could delete a person's atoms completely and then put them back together instantly 5 seconds later. Would that person experience it as nothing happening? Would their consciousness carry over?

If you know what the mind is and how it exists, I suppose you would know the results.

The main question question would be, if you were that person, would you notice a change?

In d"cor? Probably. With yourself? If it was done correctly, I'd doubt it, what would there be to notice? You might get the placebo effect where you feel like you've lost your soul though... that would be creepy.
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AlbinoBunny
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4/11/2013 2:55:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/5/2013 11:08:14 AM, slo1 wrote:

What exactly are you defining as consciousness?

No idea. That makes this question a lot harder to answer. If a robot was exactly like us, would it be conscious?
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AlbinoBunny
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4/11/2013 2:56:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/11/2013 2:54:36 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 2/18/2013 9:46:10 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/18/2013 2:59:50 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:55:22 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine I could delete a person's atoms completely and then put them back together instantly 5 seconds later. Would that person experience it as nothing happening? Would their consciousness carry over?

If you know what the mind is and how it exists, I suppose you would know the results.

The main question question would be, if you were that person, would you notice a change?

In d"cor? Probably. With yourself? If it was done correctly, I'd doubt it, what would there be to notice? You might get the placebo effect where you feel like you've lost your soul though... that would be creepy.

DDO didn't like the funny "e" in decor.
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Df0512
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4/11/2013 3:26:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 12:55:22 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine I could delete a person's atoms completely and then put them back together instantly 5 seconds later. Would that person experience it as nothing happening? Would their consciousness carry over?

Kinda of like teleportation. I suppose if consciousness did carry ovcer teleportatio would be possible. I believe it would. Although I wonder, if the new being( after their atoms reappeared) would really be the same person or just a copy.
drhead
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4/11/2013 3:30:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/11/2013 3:26:13 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 2/18/2013 12:55:22 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
Imagine I could delete a person's atoms completely and then put them back together instantly 5 seconds later. Would that person experience it as nothing happening? Would their consciousness carry over?

Kinda of like teleportation. I suppose if consciousness did carry ovcer teleportatio would be possible. I believe it would. Although I wonder, if the new being( after their atoms reappeared) would really be the same person or just a copy.

Note that you'd also have to move the energy contained within the body as well. Our mind probably exists more as energy than it does as matter, and in any case of teleportation where the body is deconstructed then reconstructed, it wouldn't work since you could just as easily construct without deconstructing, leaving you with 2 people. The only viable option for teleportation would be through an open wormhole.
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"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
"For me, Evolution is a zombie theory. I mean imaginary cartoons and wishful thinking support it?" - Dragonfang
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phantom
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4/11/2013 3:38:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/11/2013 2:48:04 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/6/2013 1:36:49 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/6/2013 10:23:30 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
That person would die. A replicated being with identical consciousness and memories would appear.

What do you mean by identical consciousness though? Identical consciousness sounds like the same identity, so the same person. So it sounds like he wouldn't actually die. Or at least, he'd die and then start living again.

Identical doesn't mean the same, it means similar in every detail; exactly alike. If I have a coke can beside another coke can, they are identical, but that doesn't mean that coke can is the other coke can.

So what is the difference between the first and second consciousness? You set memory aside from consciousness, so I'm just wandering. There doesn't seem to be much difference to any persons consciousness besides identity. I'm probably thinking of it differently than you though.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
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4/11/2013 3:41:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/11/2013 2:55:49 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/5/2013 11:08:14 AM, slo1 wrote:

What exactly are you defining as consciousness?

No idea. That makes this question a lot harder to answer. If a robot was exactly like us, would it be conscious?

If a robot was exactly like us, (neurons, atoms, organs and all) then there's no reason to believe it's not conscious.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Df0512
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4/11/2013 3:53:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Theres no way u can have 2 things that are the same, on a quantum level (atomic level?), exist at the same time. One would have to be destoryed before reconstructing the other. I hear u on the mind or consciousness being energy. Thats what i believe as well.
slo1
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4/15/2013 9:24:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/11/2013 3:53:49 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Theres no way u can have 2 things that are the same, on a quantum level (atomic level?), exist at the same time. One would have to be destoryed before reconstructing the other. I hear u on the mind or consciousness being energy. Thats what i believe as well.

So, if a person no longer has physical consciousness, such as someone who has no brain activity other than the brain stem and is being kept alive by life support has some other type of consciousness? Or did they loose it when their cortex and other complex area of the brain died?