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How does science explain these miracles?

GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/18/2013 4:36:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
How does science explain the

Shroud of Turin,
Miracle of Lanciano,
Tilma of Juan Diego (in particular, the reflections in Mary's eyes), Dance of the Sun at Fatima,
and the curing waters of Lourdes?

Interested in your input, especially from atheists.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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2/18/2013 5:13:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why would God present himself in ways that, by definition, are outside of reason -- outside man's only means of survival. Why would he reward those who value emotions and arbitrary whim over rational thought (people used to thinking in irrational ways). Even if those miracles were true (they aren't) , why does that prove God? The universe is completely and utterly NOT mystical. Every single 'miracle' has refuted, rejected, and spit out as the same nonsense as all 'miracles' before it.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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2/18/2013 5:16:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Science doesn't explain those miracles, because the conclusions DO NOT reflect reality.
"How does this water heal people" -- explain that science! It can't, because that's not what's happening. Expecting science to explain things which are patently absurd and false does not prove a shortcoming of science, but of the question.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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2/18/2013 5:49:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 4:36:28 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
How does science explain the

Shroud of Turin,

Seriously? This one was put to rest years ago. It was dated to the middle ages. Somewhere around the 1200's.

Miracle of Lanciano,

There is no evidence that what is there is real flesh. Supposedly, a scientist studied it in the 80's, and concluded that it was. But there is no evidence for this. Even if it was flesh, there is no way to know where it came from.

Tilma of Juan Diego (in particular, the reflections in Mary's eyes), Dance of the Sun at Fatima,

There very existence of Juan Diego is disputed by many experts.

and the curing waters of Lourdes?

Can you give me an example of a double blind study that shows that it isn't simple a placebo effect. Or even an instance of an actually proven miraculous healing caused by the Lourdes waters.


Interested in your input, especially from atheists.

In summation, most of these have questionable, at best, evidence, the rest have none.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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2/18/2013 6:10:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 5:57:01 PM, TolerantSpirit wrote:
Science doesn't explain the miracles.

There are no 'miracles' to be explained...

Exactly. Miracles are man's irrationality mixed with a little dose of man's propensity to notice patterns.
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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2/18/2013 6:50:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 4:36:28 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
How does science explain the

Shroud of Turin,

A medieval forgery, first appearing in history around 1353 CE, which is consistent with Radio-carbon dating of the material. Remember that this was a period in history in which relics were used to fill pews. Forgeries were quite common, and difficult to disprove.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Miracle of Lanciano,

The fact that this isn't well known outside of catholic circles immediately raises some eyebrows. Sampling conducted showed that the church holding the relic, contained actual blood from heart tissue, that this blood came from a communion is based on little more than anecdote.

Tilma of Juan Diego

Hearsay. Enough said.

Dance of the Sun at Fatima,

Stare at the sun long enough and you'll see a dancing disc, and other optical illusions as well. Sun miracles are often reported in places where pilgrims are encouraged to stare into the sun for prolonged periods of time, it's not so much a miracle as it is damage you are causing to your eyes. Color changes are the result of bleaching of retinal cells from prolonged exposure to the sunlight.

and the curing waters of Lourdes?

To my knowledge there is no evidence that the water actually heals anything, people may report improved health due largely to a placebo effect.
THEVIRUS
Posts: 1,321
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2/18/2013 7:02:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 6:10:53 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/18/2013 5:57:01 PM, TolerantSpirit wrote:
Science doesn't explain the miracles.

There are no 'miracles' to be explained...

Exactly. Miracles are man's irrationality mixed with a little dose of man's propensity to notice patterns.
"So you want me to go to the judge with 'unit, corps, God, country'?" - A Few Good Men

"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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2/18/2013 7:43:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 4:36:28 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
How does science explain the

Shroud of Turin,
Miracle of Lanciano,
Tilma of Juan Diego (in particular, the reflections in Mary's eyes), Dance of the Sun at Fatima,
and the curing waters of Lourdes?

Interested in your input, especially from atheists.

Trying to explain miracles strikes me as a contradiction in terms. if science can explain it, then it isn't a miracle.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Floid
Posts: 751
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2/18/2013 8:02:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Scientific view:

The above instances are more likely to be the result of the known irrational characteristics of human beings than the rational characteristics of an otherwise undetectable supreme being.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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2/18/2013 8:27:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Let me ask you what is more likely : that all the miracles seen throughout the world are no more than man's irrationality (something that we KNOW exists and KNOW it can produce false beliefs), or that God is just toying with us -- a supreme being -- trying to persuade us through complete bullsh1t tactics that only appeal to irrational people? Either God doesn't want rational people to go to heaven or he is irrational himself. He has not provided any ACTUAL evidence he exists, so if I go to hell, I will not feel guilty. I will say, 'If you wanted be to believe, you should have done a better job.'
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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2/18/2013 8:30:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also, according to Christian doctrine, God DID try to tell us he exists, yet they still call it faith. I call that believing in bullsh1t evidence consciously for irrational reasons.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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2/19/2013 4:23:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Science doesn't claim to automatically have the answer to everything like religion does. It tests and it retests, it doubts and it changes. So, if by asking "how does science explain this?" you're meaning to say "if science doesn't have an answer then it must be supernatural" then you fundamentally misunderstand what science is or how rational thought works, for that matter.

I find it funny how people resort to supernatural explanations as a default. If we can't explain something, it must be supernatural. When, through-out history, every mystery ever solved as turned out to be...not magic. People used to think lightening was caused by the gods. Now we know the science behind it and conclude such ideas to be simply stupid. But today we have the same problem. Don't know how the universe started? God did it. Don't know how the shroud of Turin happened? God did it.

It's pretty baffling to me. When I don't know how something is done...I tend to just say I don't know and either leave it at that or try to figure it out. Rather than just explaining it away with the most unverifiable explanation I can muster.

I think people often misunderstand how chance works. They think low probability things never happen. When in-fact, based on the logic of probability, unlikely things are inevitable to occur all the time. Such is the case with many supposed miracles. It's often just nature being weird.

But I digress. I don't have any substantial answer for your question because, like you, I don't know enough about the subjects. But I encourage you to continue looking for someone who does.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/19/2013 12:38:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Thanks muzebreak and Polaris.

Are there any others who want to have a shot at my challenge without being a smarta*ss or playing semantics?
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
Polaris
Posts: 1,120
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2/19/2013 3:48:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 12:38:16 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Thanks muzebreak and Polaris.

Are there any others who want to have a shot at my challenge without being a smarta*ss or playing semantics?

de nada
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/19/2013 7:09:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 12:38:16 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Thanks muzebreak and Polaris.

Are there any others who want to have a shot at my challenge without being a smarta*ss or playing semantics?

Sorry, but your implicit assumption that there must be a readily available scientific explanation for any arbitrary event, or else it's a miracle, is absurd.
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/19/2013 7:19:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 7:09:07 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/19/2013 12:38:16 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Thanks muzebreak and Polaris.

Are there any others who want to have a shot at my challenge without being a smarta*ss or playing semantics?

Sorry, but your implicit assumption that there must be a readily available scientific explanation for any arbitrary event, or else it's a miracle, is absurd.

You know what I meant. I had actually tried writing 'supposed' miracles in the title box, but it didn't f*ucking fit. So f*uck off.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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2/19/2013 7:21:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I can turn water into wine. No really I can. Why don't you believe me?

The reasons you give will pretty much summarize why I'm an atheist.
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/19/2013 7:21:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also, I can provide sources if I must, but how would an atheist explain the images in Mary's eyes on the Tilma of Juan Diego?
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/19/2013 7:36:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 7:19:55 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/19/2013 7:09:07 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/19/2013 12:38:16 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Thanks muzebreak and Polaris.

Are there any others who want to have a shot at my challenge without being a smarta*ss or playing semantics?

Sorry, but your implicit assumption that there must be a readily available scientific explanation for any arbitrary event, or else it's a miracle, is absurd.

You know what I meant. I had actually tried writing 'supposed' miracles in the title box, but it didn't f*ucking fit. So f*uck off.

I still reject this subtle attempt to shift the burden of proof.
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/19/2013 7:37:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 7:34:27 PM, Polaris wrote:
How do you explain this?

http://wasadamdefunctnow.files.wordpress.com...

Lol. I hope that wasn't a serious argument, because the reflections in Mary's eyes have been studies by scientists with microscopes and they are only visible with modern equipment... NOT the type of equipment Indians had 400 years ago.
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
GarretKadeDupre
Posts: 2,023
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2/19/2013 7:38:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 7:36:58 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/19/2013 7:19:55 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/19/2013 7:09:07 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/19/2013 12:38:16 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Thanks muzebreak and Polaris.

Are there any others who want to have a shot at my challenge without being a smarta*ss or playing semantics?

Sorry, but your implicit assumption that there must be a readily available scientific explanation for any arbitrary event, or else it's a miracle, is absurd.

You know what I meant. I had actually tried writing 'supposed' miracles in the title box, but it didn't f*ucking fit. So f*uck off.

I still reject this subtle attempt to shift the burden of proof.

I obviously made this whole f*ucking thread to give you the burden of proof. F*uck off, it's a challenge, if you don't accept it, then why the f*uck are you even here?
Proof that people witnessed living dinosaurs:
http://www.debate.org...
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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2/19/2013 7:55:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 7:21:39 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Also, I can provide sources if I must, but how would an atheist explain the images in Mary's eyes on the Tilma of Juan Diego?

One word: stochasticity

Other religions claim to see their God's the same way you do yours.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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2/19/2013 7:56:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 7:55:47 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/19/2013 7:21:39 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Also, I can provide sources if I must, but how would an atheist explain the images in Mary's eyes on the Tilma of Juan Diego?

One word: stochasticity

Other religions claim to see their God's the same way you do yours.

Gods or God*
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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2/19/2013 7:59:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If God wants us to have faith, why is he giving us such concrete evidence as you claim for his existence. Either claim that God doesn't want us to have faith, but rather wants to prove himself, or the evidence that you put forth as proof is not proof of anything.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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2/19/2013 8:02:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/18/2013 4:36:28 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
How does science explain the

Shroud of Turin,

Turin is BS.

Miracle of Lanciano,
Tilma of Juan Diego (in particular, the reflections in Mary's eyes), Dance of the Sun at Fatima,
and the curing waters of Lourdes?

Interested in your input, especially from atheists.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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2/19/2013 8:06:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also, we don't have to disprove EVERY freakin' miracle. If we disprove a great number of them, then any other miracle claimed using the same logic as the rest is probably not true. And by probably I mean most definitely not.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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2/19/2013 8:44:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/19/2013 7:38:48 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/19/2013 7:36:58 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/19/2013 7:19:55 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/19/2013 7:09:07 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 2/19/2013 12:38:16 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Thanks muzebreak and Polaris.

Are there any others who want to have a shot at my challenge without being a smarta*ss or playing semantics?

Sorry, but your implicit assumption that there must be a readily available scientific explanation for any arbitrary event, or else it's a miracle, is absurd.

You know what I meant. I had actually tried writing 'supposed' miracles in the title box, but it didn't f*ucking fit. So f*uck off.

I still reject this subtle attempt to shift the burden of proof.

I obviously made this whole f*ucking thread to give you the burden of proof. F*uck off, it's a challenge, if you don't accept it, then why the f*uck are you even here?

To demonstrate that this is a stupid attempt to shift the burden of proof. I politely decline your offer to give me the burden of proof. You can keep it.