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Is quantum phenomena truly random?

AlbinoBunny
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4/13/2013 9:05:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Or does it just appear random?
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1Devilsadvocate
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4/13/2013 9:12:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:05:19 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Or does it just appear random?

How would anyone be able to determine that?
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AlbinoBunny
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4/13/2013 9:20:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:12:39 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:05:19 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Or does it just appear random?

How would anyone be able to determine that?

Well we could show it isn't random if we can find out how to predict it. How to show it is random though, I don't know. There could be a way.
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dylancatlow
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4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.
AlbinoBunny
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4/13/2013 9:25:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

Could it be pre-determined but also causeless?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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dylancatlow
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4/13/2013 9:27:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:25:29 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

Could it be pre-determined but also causeless?

I don't know.
AlbinoBunny
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4/13/2013 9:30:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:27:14 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:25:29 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

Could it be pre-determined but also causeless?

I don't know.

So there isn't any contradiction you can find with that?
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dylancatlow
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4/13/2013 9:34:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:30:38 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:27:14 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:25:29 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

Could it be pre-determined but also causeless?

I don't know.

So there isn't any contradiction you can find with that?

I see the obvious contradiction, but I still don't know. The universe is a wacky place.
AlbinoBunny
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4/13/2013 9:40:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:34:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:30:38 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:27:14 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:25:29 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

Could it be pre-determined but also causeless?

I don't know.

So there isn't any contradiction you can find with that?

I see the obvious contradiction, but I still don't know. The universe is a wacky place.

What's the contradiction?
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phantom
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4/13/2013 9:41:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

The same experiments produce different results. What makes you think rewinding the clock for one experiment will make it produce the same result?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
dylancatlow
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4/13/2013 9:42:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:40:18 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:34:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:30:38 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:27:14 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:25:29 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

Could it be pre-determined but also causeless?

I don't know.

So there isn't any contradiction you can find with that?

I see the obvious contradiction, but I still don't know. The universe is a wacky place.

What's the contradiction?

If it's causeless, there is nothing that could pre-determine it because the reason it happened is not tied to anything.
dylancatlow
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4/13/2013 9:43:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:41:26 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

The same experiments produce different results. What makes you think rewinding the clock for one experiment will make it produce the same result?

That is amazingly poor logic.
AlbinoBunny
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4/13/2013 9:53:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:42:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:40:18 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:34:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:30:38 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:27:14 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:25:29 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

Could it be pre-determined but also causeless?

I don't know.

So there isn't any contradiction you can find with that?

I see the obvious contradiction, but I still don't know. The universe is a wacky place.

What's the contradiction?

If it's causeless, there is nothing that could pre-determine it because the reason it happened is not tied to anything.

Well I'd agree, but it does seem like an assumption.
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AlbinoBunny
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4/13/2013 9:57:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:41:26 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

The same experiments produce different results. What makes you think rewinding the clock for one experiment will make it produce the same result?

Many variables change from one experiment to the next. It's proposed that if all variables are the same, the result would be the same. He's proposing that rewinding the clock and "hitting" play would create a scenario with identical variables and if the phenomena isn't truly random the result would be the same. If it is truly random, the result wouldn't depend on the variables and would change.

If it is "truly" random, is that evidence for it being causeless?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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dylancatlow
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4/13/2013 10:09:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:57:23 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:41:26 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

The same experiments produce different results. What makes you think rewinding the clock for one experiment will make it produce the same result?

Many variables change from one experiment to the next. It's proposed that if all variables are the same, the result would be the same. He's proposing that rewinding the clock and "hitting" play would create a scenario with identical variables and if the phenomena isn't truly random the result would be the same. If it is truly random, the result wouldn't depend on the variables and would change.

If it is "truly" random, is that evidence for it being causeless?

Yes, if it's truly random that means it's causeless. But don't confuse truly random with seemingly random.
AlbinoBunny
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4/13/2013 10:12:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 10:09:53 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:57:23 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:41:26 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

The same experiments produce different results. What makes you think rewinding the clock for one experiment will make it produce the same result?

Many variables change from one experiment to the next. It's proposed that if all variables are the same, the result would be the same. He's proposing that rewinding the clock and "hitting" play would create a scenario with identical variables and if the phenomena isn't truly random the result would be the same. If it is truly random, the result wouldn't depend on the variables and would change.

If it is "truly" random, is that evidence for it being causeless?

Yes, if it's truly random that means it's causeless. But don't confuse truly random with seemingly random.

I'll try not to pal.
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AlbinoBunny
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4/13/2013 10:35:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 10:25:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
To tell the truth, I don't believe 'truly random' things happen.

How do you think our reality began? Or do you think it's always existed?
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Smithereens
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4/13/2013 10:41:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
well, let us observe and find out...

It can be argue that everything is cause and effect and thus nothing can be random. For example, rolling a dice isn't random if I throw it hard enough against the surface to make it roll to 6. Random is just the perception of meaningless sequences of events that we cannot identify a pattern in.
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AlbinoBunny
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4/13/2013 11:26:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 10:41:11 PM, Smithereens wrote:
well, let us observe and find out...

It can be argue that everything is cause and effect and thus nothing can be random. For example, rolling a dice isn't random if I throw it hard enough against the surface to make it roll to 6. Random is just the perception of meaningless sequences of events that we cannot identify a pattern in.

Unless something is truly random.
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dylancatlow
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4/13/2013 11:27:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 10:35:18 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 10:25:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
To tell the truth, I don't believe 'truly random' things happen.

How do you think our reality began? Or do you think it's always existed?

It didn't begin.
R0b1Billion
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4/14/2013 12:00:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

I subscribe to the opposite notion... there is definitely a strong element of censorship in the universe, where knowledge is expressly forbidden about many attributes. Black holes, for example (cosmic censorship). Knowing the velocity and position of a particle (and all those other similar balances). Electrons don't HAVE a precise location and velocity; it's not that we simply can't see it. At the every-day macro-level, things have precise identities which just don't translate down to lower scales.
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phantom
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4/14/2013 7:20:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:43:54 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:41:26 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

The same experiments produce different results. What makes you think rewinding the clock for one experiment will make it produce the same result?

That is amazingly poor logic.

Uh. Well I asked a question did I not? When scientists perform a quantum experiment twice, the second results will be different than the first. In other words, doing the same thing twice produces different results even though, if it weren't random, they should be the same. How does your "reversal in time" escape the issue that in quantum physics the same things don't continually happen in the same circumstances. As far as we can get to your "reversal in time thing" is reproducing the event, but doing so does not leave us with the same thing happening again. Sorry, but I haven't seen you make the slightest argument so far.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
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4/14/2013 7:25:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:57:23 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:41:26 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

The same experiments produce different results. What makes you think rewinding the clock for one experiment will make it produce the same result?

Many variables change from one experiment to the next. It's proposed that if all variables are the same, the result would be the same. He's proposing that rewinding the clock and "hitting" play would create a scenario with identical variables and if the phenomena isn't truly random the result would be the same. If it is truly random, the result wouldn't depend on the variables and would change.

I know what he's proposing. I just don't see how he's supported it.

If it is "truly" random, is that evidence for it being causeless?

Not entirely causeless.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
muzebreak
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4/14/2013 7:36:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:12:39 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:05:19 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Or does it just appear random?

How would anyone be able to determine that?

Determine statistical probabilities, and look for anomalies when comparing what would be random, statistically, to what actually happens.

For instance, take pi. You could calculate it to infinity decimal places. And it is truly random. Therefore, calculated in base ten the average amount of each number, 0-9, should be 10%. Now lets say you're calculating along pi, then all of a sudden, you hit a bunch of fours. And these fours go on for tens of thousands of decimal places. Now, while it is possible for such a pattern to emerge, the odds of it happening in the amount of time we actually have to calculate pi before the universe ends are so astronomical that it would be absurd to believe it was random. This allows us to conclude that it is non-random.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
muzebreak
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4/14/2013 7:41:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2013 9:42:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:40:18 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:34:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:30:38 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:27:14 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:25:29 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

Could it be pre-determined but also causeless?

I don't know.

So there isn't any contradiction you can find with that?

I see the obvious contradiction, but I still don't know. The universe is a wacky place.

What's the contradiction?

If it's causeless, there is nothing that could pre-determine it because the reason it happened is not tied to anything.

Could you expand upon this, because it doesn't seem to make sense to me. Why would something need a prior cause for it to be deterministic in nature?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
dylancatlow
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4/14/2013 10:28:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 7:20:02 AM, phantom wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:43:54 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:41:26 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

The same experiments produce different results. What makes you think rewinding the clock for one experiment will make it produce the same result?

That is amazingly poor logic.

Uh. Well I asked a question did I not? When scientists perform a quantum experiment twice, the second results will be different than the first. In other words, doing the same thing twice produces different results even though, if it weren't random, they should be the same. How does your "reversal in time" escape the issue that in quantum physics the same things don't continually happen in the same circumstances. As far as we can get to your "reversal in time thing" is reproducing the event, but doing so does not leave us with the same thing happening again. Sorry, but I haven't seen you make the slightest argument so far.

What makes you think the variables are staying the same???
phantom
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4/14/2013 10:55:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 10:28:19 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/14/2013 7:20:02 AM, phantom wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:43:54 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:41:26 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

The same experiments produce different results. What makes you think rewinding the clock for one experiment will make it produce the same result?

That is amazingly poor logic.

Uh. Well I asked a question did I not? When scientists perform a quantum experiment twice, the second results will be different than the first. In other words, doing the same thing twice produces different results even though, if it weren't random, they should be the same. How does your "reversal in time" escape the issue that in quantum physics the same things don't continually happen in the same circumstances. As far as we can get to your "reversal in time thing" is reproducing the event, but doing so does not leave us with the same thing happening again. Sorry, but I haven't seen you make the slightest argument so far.

What makes you think the variables are staying the same???

I don't know if they're exactly the same. The fact is, quantum physics isn't uniform like Newtonian. It's impossible to predict except with probability what's going to happen, partially because setting up the same thing twice doesn't result in the same occurrences. You can inquire about variables, and I don't know the exact variables of all experiments and how they differ, but the fact that scientists can in no way know what's going to happen by looking at the variables, is a serious issue to your belief that the variables determine what's going to happen and that it will be the same every time. Seeing as it's the most tested theory in science, I would assume someone by now would have found that the variables do determine it with certainty. That would be a Nobel prize worthy feat.

I'm still waiting for an argument.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Enji
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4/14/2013 11:01:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2013 10:55:27 AM, phantom wrote:
At 4/14/2013 10:28:19 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/14/2013 7:20:02 AM, phantom wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:43:54 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:41:26 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/13/2013 9:24:10 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I subscribe to the notion that it merely appears random.

Essentially, rewind the clock and hit play and the same things will happen.

The same experiments produce different results. What makes you think rewinding the clock for one experiment will make it produce the same result?

That is amazingly poor logic.

Uh. Well I asked a question did I not? When scientists perform a quantum experiment twice, the second results will be different than the first. In other words, doing the same thing twice produces different results even though, if it weren't random, they should be the same. How does your "reversal in time" escape the issue that in quantum physics the same things don't continually happen in the same circumstances. As far as we can get to your "reversal in time thing" is reproducing the event, but doing so does not leave us with the same thing happening again. Sorry, but I haven't seen you make the slightest argument so far.

What makes you think the variables are staying the same???

I don't know if they're exactly the same. The fact is, quantum physics isn't uniform like Newtonian. It's impossible to predict except with probability what's going to happen, partially because setting up the same thing twice doesn't result in the same occurrences. You can inquire about variables, and I don't know the exact variables of all experiments and how they differ, but the fact that scientists can in no way know what's going to happen by looking at the variables, is a serious issue to your belief that the variables determine what's going to happen and that it will be the same every time. Seeing as it's the most tested theory in science, I would assume someone by now would have found that the variables do determine it with certainty. That would be a Nobel prize worthy feat.

I'm still waiting for an argument.

Bell's theorem shows that quantum mechanics violates most assumptions behind classical mechanics; no theory of local hidden variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of quantum mechanics. Which I believe means that quantum mechanics is truly random, rather than merely appearing so.