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Everlasting run engine

thinhnghiem
Posts: 17
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6/18/2013 11:31:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hi again,

Few months ago I had chance to research a non stop engine model. Now it has been improved and works well, and I would like to introduce it here.

1. Tools and facilities:
- The main component of this model is a wooden toy with dragonfly shape. Its head is a rectangle which is curved upward, with long tail
- A sharp pillar
- A medium sizes magnet (In attached screenshot it is the round and white piece)
- Some tiny magnets

2. Model
- Stick the tiny magnets under the tail of dragonfly shaped specimen. The gravity of magnets make this specimen settles down toward the tail.
- Then, touch the sharp peak of the rectangle head of the specimen very slightly into the top of the pillar. It makes the balance status of this dragonfly toy is very unstable. It is very easy to drop down as seen in attached screenshot
- Put the medium sized magnet vertically and so close to the tail of the specimen so that their facing poles are NOT the same (i.e. north to south or south to north)
- Keep the whole system in an insolated room, with all doors and windows are closed to prevent air wing influence.

3. Operation:
- The attraction force between 2 magnets makes the tail of the specimen is pulled down slightly, before it is up again. Then a new period starts with the up and down movement of the specimen tail, again and again etc.
- The position of the medium sized magnet is adjustable so that it can give best result to the movement of the specimen. If the distance between magnets is so far, the force intensity is so weak to result in movement. Otherwise, the strong attraction force from the medium sized will also prevent the specimen from moving.

I let my model there overnight to make sure that there is no stopping. And luckily it does not stop until now.

I post my article here so that any interesting individual can follow and replicate my experiments.

All of my expectation that you can contact me and replicate my experiment

See my clip in Youtube at
https://www.youtube.com...

Thinh from Vietnam
sadolite
Posts: 8,842
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6/18/2013 5:16:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Now scale it up and try and apply it to anything of use. You will find you will need "electro" magnets to produce the same result. The mass of the object will cancel out any magnetic induced movement. Natural magnetism is very weak.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
thinhnghiem
Posts: 17
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6/20/2013 1:47:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/18/2013 5:16:24 PM, sadolite wrote:
Now scale it up and try and apply it to anything of use. You will find you will need "electro" magnets to produce the same result. The mass of the object will cancel out any magnetic induced movement. Natural magnetism is very weak.

Not weak at all, I used rare natural magnet, whi si strong enough
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/20/2013 11:01:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/20/2013 1:47:13 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
At 6/18/2013 5:16:24 PM, sadolite wrote:
Now scale it up and try and apply it to anything of use. You will find you will need "electro" magnets to produce the same result. The mass of the object will cancel out any magnetic induced movement. Natural magnetism is very weak.

Not weak at all, I used rare natural magnet, whi si strong enough
Sadolite is correct. It is extremely weak. Why people keep falling for this stuff is beyond me. There's no such thing as perpetual motion.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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6/20/2013 6:06:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/20/2013 11:01:59 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 6/20/2013 1:47:13 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
At 6/18/2013 5:16:24 PM, sadolite wrote:
Now scale it up and try and apply it to anything of use. You will find you will need "electro" magnets to produce the same result. The mass of the object will cancel out any magnetic induced movement. Natural magnetism is very weak.

Not weak at all, I used rare natural magnet, whi si strong enough
Sadolite is correct. It is extremely weak. Why people keep falling for this stuff is beyond me. There's no such thing as perpetual motion.

And even if there was, you couldn't take any energy out to do anything with it, so at best you just have a cute toy.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/21/2013 8:50:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/20/2013 6:06:42 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 6/20/2013 11:01:59 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 6/20/2013 1:47:13 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
At 6/18/2013 5:16:24 PM, sadolite wrote:
Now scale it up and try and apply it to anything of use. You will find you will need "electro" magnets to produce the same result. The mass of the object will cancel out any magnetic induced movement. Natural magnetism is very weak.

Not weak at all, I used rare natural magnet, whi si strong enough
Sadolite is correct. It is extremely weak. Why people keep falling for this stuff is beyond me. There's no such thing as perpetual motion.

And even if there was, you couldn't take any energy out to do anything with it, so at best you just have a cute toy.
Absolutely. If we were able to get energy out of it we would essentially be creating something out of nothing.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
thinhnghiem
Posts: 17
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6/21/2013 11:33:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Why not?

We can make a conductor with shape as in my model, moving in a magnetic field, and we can have output electrical current
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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6/21/2013 11:44:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/21/2013 11:33:55 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
Why not?

Because physics.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/21/2013 1:22:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/20/2013 11:01:59 AM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 6/20/2013 1:47:13 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
At 6/18/2013 5:16:24 PM, sadolite wrote:
Now scale it up and try and apply it to anything of use. You will find you will need "electro" magnets to produce the same result. The mass of the object will cancel out any magnetic induced movement. Natural magnetism is very weak.

Not weak at all, I used rare natural magnet, whi si strong enough
Sadolite is correct. It is extremely weak. Why people keep falling for this stuff is beyond me. There's no such thing as perpetual motion.

Not so much weak, in terms of forces, but not a lot of potential energy in it. You can't make the system do the amount of works that one can get from a battery or electric power you receive from power plants. And once you've lost the potential energy from magnets spaced apart, you can't get it back.
Open borders debate:
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darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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6/21/2013 1:44:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/18/2013 11:31:41 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
Hi again,

Few months ago I had chance to research a non stop engine model. Now it has been improved and works well, and I would like to introduce it here.

1. Tools and facilities:
- The main component of this model is a wooden toy with dragonfly shape. Its head is a rectangle which is curved upward, with long tail
- A sharp pillar
- A medium sizes magnet (In attached screenshot it is the round and white piece)
- Some tiny magnets

2. Model
- Stick the tiny magnets under the tail of dragonfly shaped specimen. The gravity of magnets make this specimen settles down toward the tail.
- Then, touch the sharp peak of the rectangle head of the specimen very slightly into the top of the pillar. It makes the balance status of this dragonfly toy is very unstable. It is very easy to drop down as seen in attached screenshot
- Put the medium sized magnet vertically and so close to the tail of the specimen so that their facing poles are NOT the same (i.e. north to south or south to north)
- Keep the whole system in an insolated room, with all doors and windows are closed to prevent air wing influence.

3. Operation:
- The attraction force between 2 magnets makes the tail of the specimen is pulled down slightly, before it is up again. Then a new period starts with the up and down movement of the specimen tail, again and again etc.
- The position of the medium sized magnet is adjustable so that it can give best result to the movement of the specimen. If the distance between magnets is so far, the force intensity is so weak to result in movement. Otherwise, the strong attraction force from the medium sized will also prevent the specimen from moving.

I let my model there overnight to make sure that there is no stopping. And luckily it does not stop until now.

I post my article here so that any interesting individual can follow and replicate my experiments.

All of my expectation that you can contact me and replicate my experiment

See my clip in Youtube at
https://www.youtube.com...


Thinh from Vietnam

Don't know how long you've actually done that for but that thing will eventually stop, lol. Air friction will act as a dampening effect.
Open borders debate:
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sadolite
Posts: 8,842
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6/21/2013 4:27:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/21/2013 11:33:55 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
Why not?

We can make a conductor with shape as in my model, moving in a magnetic field, and we can have output electrical current

You are not getting the "mass" argument. It works on a tiny scale, but it to will eventually fail It doesn't work on a large scale. Don't believe it? Scale up your toy and try to get it to do anything. Gravity and friction will cancel it out. You must exponentially increase the power of the magnet as the mass increases. Natural Magnets are weak compared to gravity especially as mass increases.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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6/21/2013 5:19:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/21/2013 4:27:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 6/21/2013 11:33:55 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
Why not?

We can make a conductor with shape as in my model, moving in a magnetic field, and we can have output electrical current

You are not getting the "mass" argument. It works on a tiny scale, but it to will eventually fail It doesn't work on a large scale. Don't believe it? Scale up your toy and try to get it to do anything. Gravity and friction will cancel it out. You must exponentially increase the power of the magnet as the mass increases. Natural Magnets are weak compared to gravity especially as mass increases.

The mass argument is just a less parsimonious version of the conservation of energy argument, and the conservation of energy - not the mass of the model - is the reason why it fails.
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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6/22/2013 8:56:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/21/2013 5:19:34 PM, Enji wrote:
At 6/21/2013 4:27:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 6/21/2013 11:33:55 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
Why not?

We can make a conductor with shape as in my model, moving in a magnetic field, and we can have output electrical current

You are not getting the "mass" argument. It works on a tiny scale, but it to will eventually fail It doesn't work on a large scale. Don't believe it? Scale up your toy and try to get it to do anything. Gravity and friction will cancel it out. You must exponentially increase the power of the magnet as the mass increases. Natural Magnets are weak compared to gravity especially as mass increases.

The mass argument is just a less parsimonious version of the conservation of energy argument, and the conservation of energy - not the mass of the model - is the reason why it fails.

Indeed, Debate.org experiment time! We just need a large vacuum chamber and casimir effect frictionless wings.
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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6/22/2013 1:34:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The only perpetual motion machines I think are plausible would be the orbit of an electron around an atom in an undisturbed environment.
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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6/22/2013 2:18:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 1:34:55 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
The only perpetual motion machines I think are plausible would be the orbit of an electron around an atom in an undisturbed environment.

That's not how electrons work - the classical Bohr model of the atom has been replaced with atomic orbitals and quantum mechanics. The s orbital (the one that looks like a circle), for example, has no angular momentum and the highest probability is at the centre, which hardly lends itself to any classical idea of orbiting. In the deBroglie-Bohm interpretation of QM, electrons in the s orbital are actually considered to be at rest* (although the same doesn't apply to other orbitals and different interpretations of QM say different things).

*(i think)
sadolite
Posts: 8,842
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6/22/2013 5:08:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
How about this "Aint nothin free"
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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6/23/2013 11:37:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/22/2013 2:18:07 PM, Enji wrote:
At 6/22/2013 1:34:55 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
The only perpetual motion machines I think are plausible would be the orbit of an electron around an atom in an undisturbed environment.

That's not how electrons work - the classical Bohr model of the atom has been replaced with atomic orbitals and quantum mechanics. The s orbital (the one that looks like a circle), for example, has no angular momentum and the highest probability is at the centre, which hardly lends itself to any classical idea of orbiting. In the deBroglie-Bohm interpretation of QM, electrons in the s orbital are actually considered to be at rest* (although the same doesn't apply to other orbitals and different interpretations of QM say different things).

*(i think)

Okay, the movement of an electron around an atom in an undisturbed environment. Though I don't know enough about quantum mechanics to know if an electron at ground state but still moving (if the universe is discrete rather than wave-like) counts.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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6/23/2013 2:12:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://xkcd.com...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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6/23/2013 4:34:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/23/2013 11:37:20 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 6/22/2013 2:18:07 PM, Enji wrote:
At 6/22/2013 1:34:55 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
The only perpetual motion machines I think are plausible would be the orbit of an electron around an atom in an undisturbed environment.

That's not how electrons work - the classical Bohr model of the atom has been replaced with atomic orbitals and quantum mechanics. The s orbital (the one that looks like a circle), for example, has no angular momentum and the highest probability is at the centre, which hardly lends itself to any classical idea of orbiting. In the deBroglie-Bohm interpretation of QM, electrons in the s orbital are actually considered to be at rest* (although the same doesn't apply to other orbitals and different interpretations of QM say different things).

*(i think)

Okay, the movement of an electron around an atom in an undisturbed environment. Though I don't know enough about quantum mechanics to know if an electron at ground state but still moving (if the universe is discrete rather than wave-like) counts.

By definition ground state is stationary. Some of the other orbitals have angular momentum and thus can be considered 'moving' in a sense. Also, protons have a half-life so even the ground state of an atom decays eventually.
Enji
Posts: 1,022
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6/23/2013 10:04:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/23/2013 4:34:22 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 6/23/2013 11:37:20 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 6/22/2013 2:18:07 PM, Enji wrote:
At 6/22/2013 1:34:55 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
The only perpetual motion machines I think are plausible would be the orbit of an electron around an atom in an undisturbed environment.

That's not how electrons work - the classical Bohr model of the atom has been replaced with atomic orbitals and quantum mechanics. The s orbital (the one that looks like a circle), for example, has no angular momentum and the highest probability is at the centre, which hardly lends itself to any classical idea of orbiting. In the deBroglie-Bohm interpretation of QM, electrons in the s orbital are actually considered to be at rest* (although the same doesn't apply to other orbitals and different interpretations of QM say different things).

*(i think)

Okay, the movement of an electron around an atom in an undisturbed environment. Though I don't know enough about quantum mechanics to know if an electron at ground state but still moving (if the universe is discrete rather than wave-like) counts.

By definition ground state is stationary. Some of the other orbitals have angular momentum and thus can be considered 'moving' in a sense. Also, protons have a half-life so even the ground state of an atom decays eventually.

And even the electrons in higher orbitals can't be considered to be orbiting the nucleus. There's a disconnect between the classical nature of any recognisable perpetual motion machine and the quantum nature of electron motion.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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6/24/2013 7:53:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/18/2013 11:31:41 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
Hi again,

Few months ago I had chance to research a non stop engine model. Now it has been improved and works well, and I would like to introduce it here.

1. Tools and facilities:
- The main component of this model is a wooden toy with dragonfly shape. Its head is a rectangle which is curved upward, with long tail
- A sharp pillar
- A medium sizes magnet (In attached screenshot it is the round and white piece)
- Some tiny magnets

2. Model
- Stick the tiny magnets under the tail of dragonfly shaped specimen. The gravity of magnets make this specimen settles down toward the tail.
- Then, touch the sharp peak of the rectangle head of the specimen very slightly into the top of the pillar. It makes the balance status of this dragonfly toy is very unstable. It is very easy to drop down as seen in attached screenshot
- Put the medium sized magnet vertically and so close to the tail of the specimen so that their facing poles are NOT the same (i.e. north to south or south to north)
- Keep the whole system in an insolated room, with all doors and windows are closed to prevent air wing influence.

3. Operation:
- The attraction force between 2 magnets makes the tail of the specimen is pulled down slightly, before it is up again. Then a new period starts with the up and down movement of the specimen tail, again and again etc.
- The position of the medium sized magnet is adjustable so that it can give best result to the movement of the specimen. If the distance between magnets is so far, the force intensity is so weak to result in movement. Otherwise, the strong attraction force from the medium sized will also prevent the specimen from moving.

I let my model there overnight to make sure that there is no stopping. And luckily it does not stop until now.

I post my article here so that any interesting individual can follow and replicate my experiments.

All of my expectation that you can contact me and replicate my experiment

See my clip in Youtube at
https://www.youtube.com...


Thinh from Vietnam

If indeed this is running overnight as you say, it must be getting energy from somewhere. I suspect that somehow you are deriving energy from the air in the room, that heat is making air rise and providing some energy to the 'wings'. I bet if you were to run this in a vacuum it would not oscillate very long. In a vacuum you wouldn't have any air friction, of course, but you would have friction at the fulcrum, which would gradually slow the oscillation.
This space for rent.
AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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6/24/2013 8:05:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I put a small glass into a bigger glass and it made a noise for ages, until I stopped it.

Perpetual energy.

It can't just be the energy I put into it giving out a very small percentage of the energy as vibration power...
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Enji
Posts: 1,022
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6/24/2013 8:10:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 7:53:33 AM, v3nesl wrote:

If indeed this is running overnight as you say, it must be getting energy from somewhere. I suspect that somehow you are deriving energy from the air in the room, that heat is making air rise and providing some energy to the 'wings'. I bet if you were to run this in a vacuum it would not oscillate very long. In a vacuum you wouldn't have any air friction, of course, but you would have friction at the fulcrum, which would gradually slow the oscillation.

No, it's just the transition of potential energy to kinetic energy - the total energy stays roughly constant (decreasing gradually due to air resistance). When the tail is at the bottom of the oscillation, the vertical component of the force from the magnet is greater than the force of gravity so it accelerates upwards; at the top of the oscillation the vertical component of the force from the magnet is less than the force of gravity (although the total force of from the magnet is greater) so it accelerates downwards. The minimal friction force and air resistance allows it to oscillate for a relatively long time (although not everlasting); it's not significantly different from normal introductory physics oscillation problems dealing with gravity and a spring.
v3nesl
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6/24/2013 9:01:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 8:10:42 AM, Enji wrote:
At 6/24/2013 7:53:33 AM, v3nesl wrote:

If indeed this is running overnight as you say, it must be getting energy from somewhere. I suspect that somehow you are deriving energy from the air in the room, that heat is making air rise and providing some energy to the 'wings'. I bet if you were to run this in a vacuum it would not oscillate very long. In a vacuum you wouldn't have any air friction, of course, but you would have friction at the fulcrum, which would gradually slow the oscillation.

No, it's just the transition of potential energy to kinetic energy - the total energy stays roughly constant (decreasing gradually due to air resistance). When the tail is at the bottom of the oscillation, the vertical component of the force from the magnet is greater than the force of gravity so it accelerates upwards; at the top of the oscillation the vertical component of the force from the magnet is less than the force of gravity (although the total force of from the magnet is greater) so it accelerates downwards. The minimal friction force and air resistance allows it to oscillate for a relatively long time (although not everlasting); it's not significantly different from normal introductory physics oscillation problems dealing with gravity and a spring.

No, I don't think so, not if it's running overnight - I agree with the oscillation mechanisms you describe, but there's a bias in there somewhere. It's a wing, in reverse, the magnets are just low friction mount points, really. Remember those spinny toys you'd get at a circus, appeared to spin inside a vessel by magic? It was also powered by air - light would heat a paddle, the air would expand, pushing the paddle backwards. This thing is a glider of sorts, riding on an updraft, and you've got a secondary oscillation where the wing lift changes as it's attitude changes - more lift when it's flat, drops off as the wing rises.

That's my story, anyway, and I'm sticking to it.

(There would be ways to test my theory, see if frequency correlates to room temperature, something like that.)
This space for rent.
thinhnghiem
Posts: 17
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6/25/2013 11:40:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/24/2013 7:53:33 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 6/18/2013 11:31:41 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
Hi again,

Few months ago I had chance to research a non stop engine model. Now it has been improved and works well, and I would like to introduce it here.

1. Tools and facilities:
- The main component of this model is a wooden toy with dragonfly shape. Its head is a rectangle which is curved upward, with long tail
- A sharp pillar
- A medium sizes magnet (In attached screenshot it is the round and white piece)
- Some tiny magnets

2. Model
- Stick the tiny magnets under the tail of dragonfly shaped specimen. The gravity of magnets make this specimen settles down toward the tail.
- Then, touch the sharp peak of the rectangle head of the specimen very slightly into the top of the pillar. It makes the balance status of this dragonfly toy is very unstable. It is very easy to drop down as seen in attached screenshot
- Put the medium sized magnet vertically and so close to the tail of the specimen so that their facing poles are NOT the same (i.e. north to south or south to north)
- Keep the whole system in an insolated room, with all doors and windows are closed to prevent air wing influence.

3. Operation:
- The attraction force between 2 magnets makes the tail of the specimen is pulled down slightly, before it is up again. Then a new period starts with the up and down movement of the specimen tail, again and again etc.
- The position of the medium sized magnet is adjustable so that it can give best result to the movement of the specimen. If the distance between magnets is so far, the force intensity is so weak to result in movement. Otherwise, the strong attraction force from the medium sized will also prevent the specimen from moving.

I let my model there overnight to make sure that there is no stopping. And luckily it does not stop until now.

I post my article here so that any interesting individual can follow and replicate my experiments.

All of my expectation that you can contact me and replicate my experiment

See my clip in Youtube at
https://www.youtube.com...


Thinh from Vietnam

If indeed this is running overnight as you say, it must be getting energy from somewhere. I suspect that somehow you are deriving energy from the air in the room, that heat is making air rise and providing some energy to the 'wings'. I bet if you were to run this in a vacuum it would not oscillate very long. In a vacuum you wouldn't have any air friction, of course, but you would have friction at the fulcrum, which would gradually slow the oscillation.

Actually it is hard for me to create a vacumm environment. I am an amateur experimentalist, and I do this tasks at home, not in a laboratory of any institute. All I can do is put my system in a room, and close all doors and windows.

Is it OK?
v3nesl
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6/26/2013 8:12:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/25/2013 11:40:09 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
...

Actually it is hard for me to create a vacumm environment. I am an amateur experimentalist, and I do this tasks at home, not in a laboratory of any institute. All I can do is put my system in a room, and close all doors and windows.

Is it OK?

I'm not doubting you. I'm a practicing engineer, one of the first things we learn on the job is that stuff never quite works as you expect. So then you have to try to find out why. So, how can we test if my theory of air currents has any merit? Here's an idea - can you put a cylinder around the setup somehow, like a big circle of cardboard? The best thing would be to enclose it completely, like you put a big washtub over the whole thing, then take it off in the morning and see if the bird is still oscillating. What I'm trying to do here is trap the air around your device, make sure that there is no air rising from your table past the 'wings' of your device. A room will have a little air leakage even if you close the doors and windows, I think, and/or you will have circulating air - the air rises, cools, and falls, creating a little loop inside the room - so you need to trap the air in a much smaller volume.
This space for rent.
Citrakayah
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6/26/2013 11:16:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/23/2013 10:04:23 PM, Enji wrote:
At 6/23/2013 4:34:22 PM, the_croftmeister wrote:
At 6/23/2013 11:37:20 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 6/22/2013 2:18:07 PM, Enji wrote:
At 6/22/2013 1:34:55 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
The only perpetual motion machines I think are plausible would be the orbit of an electron around an atom in an undisturbed environment.

That's not how electrons work - the classical Bohr model of the atom has been replaced with atomic orbitals and quantum mechanics. The s orbital (the one that looks like a circle), for example, has no angular momentum and the highest probability is at the centre, which hardly lends itself to any classical idea of orbiting. In the deBroglie-Bohm interpretation of QM, electrons in the s orbital are actually considered to be at rest* (although the same doesn't apply to other orbitals and different interpretations of QM say different things).

*(i think)

Okay, the movement of an electron around an atom in an undisturbed environment. Though I don't know enough about quantum mechanics to know if an electron at ground state but still moving (if the universe is discrete rather than wave-like) counts.

By definition ground state is stationary. Some of the other orbitals have angular momentum and thus can be considered 'moving' in a sense. Also, protons have a half-life so even the ground state of an atom decays eventually.

And even the electrons in higher orbitals can't be considered to be orbiting the nucleus. There's a disconnect between the classical nature of any recognisable perpetual motion machine and the quantum nature of electron motion.

This is what I get for prefering to think of electrons as discrete entities rather than wave functions...
thinhnghiem
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6/27/2013 11:39:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/26/2013 8:12:52 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 6/25/2013 11:40:09 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
...

Actually it is hard for me to create a vacumm environment. I am an amateur experimentalist, and I do this tasks at home, not in a laboratory of any institute. All I can do is put my system in a room, and close all doors and windows.

Is it OK?

I'm not doubting you. I'm a practicing engineer, one of the first things we learn on the job is that stuff never quite works as you expect. So then you have to try to find out why. So, how can we test if my theory of air currents has any merit? Here's an idea - can you put a cylinder around the setup somehow, like a big circle of cardboard? The best thing would be to enclose it completely, like you put a big washtub over the whole thing, then take it off in the morning and see if the bird is still oscillating. What I'm trying to do here is trap the air around your device, make sure that there is no air rising from your table past the 'wings' of your device. A room will have a little air leakage even if you close the doors and windows, I think, and/or you will have circulating air - the air rises, cools, and falls, creating a little loop inside the room - so you need to trap the air in a much smaller volume.

Great,

Thank you very much for your opinions
thinhnghiem
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7/3/2013 6:39:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/27/2013 11:39:53 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
At 6/26/2013 8:12:52 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 6/25/2013 11:40:09 AM, thinhnghiem wrote:
...

Actually it is hard for me to create a vacumm environment. I am an amateur experimentalist, and I do this tasks at home, not in a laboratory of any institute. All I can do is put my system in a room, and close all doors and windows.

Is it OK?

I'm not doubting you. I'm a practicing engineer, one of the first things we learn on the job is that stuff never quite works as you expect. So then you have to try to find out why. So, how can we test if my theory of air currents has any merit? Here's an idea - can you put a cylinder around the setup somehow, like a big circle of cardboard? The best thing would be to enclose it completely, like you put a big washtub over the whole thing, then take it off in the morning and see if the bird is still oscillating. What I'm trying to do here is trap the air around your device, make sure that there is no air rising from your table past the 'wings' of your device. A room will have a little air leakage even if you close the doors and windows, I think, and/or you will have circulating air - the air rises, cools, and falls, creating a little loop inside the room - so you need to trap the air in a much smaller volume.

Great,

Thank you very much for your opinions

Actually I check the toy without and with magnet interaction. In a isolated room, I put the dragonfly onto the pivot, and it stays there motionlessly. It is the evidence that I have block it from invisible interaction successfully.

Then, I shifted the n\magnet closer to the toy to verify, and it began to move