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We still don't really know how bicycles work.

Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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8/9/2013 10:35:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/9/2013 9:17:31 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
http://www.newstatesman.com...

I would challenge that. This was already done back in the 70's. I don't know what the people built, as their actual report you have to pay for. But in the 70's, a bike had already been built that removed the gyroscopic forces and found that there was nothing else keeping the bike up (when no rider present). I believe it is more likely that the new team missed something that hasn't been found in the 2 years, rather than someone missed something that wasn't noticed for 40 years.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu...
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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8/9/2013 11:50:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
They're talking about when the bike already has forward momentum...

When this is the case the front tire rights itself b/c it's the path of least, frictional, resistance with the ground.... if it vibrates back and forth it constantly favors the path of least frictional resistance and rights itself..

Granted, I don't think this quite explains away the possibility of the bike leaning to the side with the Axis being the ground beneath the tires...
Though I think it might be related...
If the bike begins to lean the front tire probably is affected, and perhaps the results follow from that path of least resistance that would act to prevent the turning of the tire.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

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AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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8/10/2013 7:27:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/9/2013 10:35:47 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 8/9/2013 9:17:31 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
http://www.newstatesman.com...

I would challenge that. This was already done back in the 70's. I don't know what the people built, as their actual report you have to pay for. But in the 70's, a bike had already been built that removed the gyroscopic forces and found that there was nothing else keeping the bike up (when no rider present). I believe it is more likely that the new team missed something that hasn't been found in the 2 years, rather than someone missed something that wasn't noticed for 40 years.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu...

What does the link say? You think the newer study missed something and trust the older one?
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AlbinoBunny
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8/10/2013 7:31:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/9/2013 11:50:54 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
They're talking about when the bike already has forward momentum...

When this is the case the front tire rights itself b/c it's the path of least, frictional, resistance with the ground.... if it vibrates back and forth it constantly favors the path of least frictional resistance and rights itself..

Granted, I don't think this quite explains away the possibility of the bike leaning to the side with the Axis being the ground beneath the tires...
Though I think it might be related...
If the bike begins to lean the front tire probably is affected, and perhaps the results follow from that path of least resistance that would act to prevent the turning of the tire.

I always though that when a bike was pushed, it started turning slightly. Then the acceleration in a direction which the top of faces means that the bottom travels in that direction and the top travels to a position over it again. That's probably simplistic child thinking though, I'll leave it to the scientists. ;)
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Such
Posts: 1,110
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8/10/2013 8:30:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Perhaps I'm missing something, but isn't there a difference between staying upright and moving in a straight line?

As far as standing upright is concerned, as long as it's moving, it should have no problem staying upright, because the force drawing it forward would be stronger than the force drawing it toward the ground, much how a thrown ball remains suspended in midair until air resistance causes it to slow to the point that the propulsion force is less than the force of gravity.

As far as it moving in a straight line, the answer is similar, though slightly different -- it should only turn if it leans, and it shouldn't lean if it's going fast enough.

To maintain perfect balance on a bicycle isn't difficult, though. I can balance on a bike almost motionless, and can balance on a fixie while completely stopped.
the_croftmeister
Posts: 678
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8/13/2013 10:06:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 8:30:34 PM, Such wrote:
Perhaps I'm missing something, but isn't there a difference between staying upright and moving in a straight line?

As far as standing upright is concerned, as long as it's moving, it should have no problem staying upright, because the force drawing it forward would be stronger than the force drawing it toward the ground, much how a thrown ball remains suspended in midair until air resistance causes it to slow to the point that the propulsion force is less than the force of gravity.
Forward and down are orthogonal directions (i.e. forces acting in these directions have no impact on each other). A thrown ball has no propulsion force at all, it has only gravity and friction (which if the ball is thrown straight up, act in the same direction on the way up and in opposite directions on the way down). Ignoring air resistance, the only force in play is gravity (hence constant vertical acceleration and a parabolic path).

As far as it moving in a straight line, the answer is similar, though slightly different -- it should only turn if it leans, and it shouldn't lean if it's going fast enough.
Considering that the bike is rigid, the only way it could fall is to lean, so staying upright and going in a straight line are very closely related. The turning wheel thing is an interesting complication.

To maintain perfect balance on a bicycle isn't difficult, though. I can balance on a bike almost motionless, and can balance on a fixie while completely stopped.
True but you have to apply corrective forces in order to do this in the presence of any wind. The point is that a bike does this even without a rider to do the shifting of weight provided that it is moving.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,466
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8/14/2013 7:42:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/10/2013 7:31:00 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/9/2013 11:50:54 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
They're talking about when the bike already has forward momentum...

When this is the case the front tire rights itself b/c it's the path of least, frictional, resistance with the ground.... if it vibrates back and forth it constantly favors the path of least frictional resistance and rights itself..

Granted, I don't think this quite explains away the possibility of the bike leaning to the side with the Axis being the ground beneath the tires...
Though I think it might be related...
If the bike begins to lean the front tire probably is affected, and perhaps the results follow from that path of least resistance that would act to prevent the turning of the tire.

I always though that when a bike was pushed, it started turning slightly. Then the acceleration in a direction which the top of faces means that the bottom travels in that direction and the top travels to a position over it again. That's probably simplistic child thinking though, I'll leave it to the scientists. ;)

No, simplistic thinking has to be correct: The sum of all inertial forces is somehow less when the bike stays straight. The gyroscope is just a multiplier of this effect: By spinning something fast you increase the acceleration that must be applied to move the mass off its straight line. When you spin a circle, that inertial line becomes an inertial plane.
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AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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8/14/2013 2:13:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 7:42:02 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 8/10/2013 7:31:00 AM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
At 8/9/2013 11:50:54 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
They're talking about when the bike already has forward momentum...

When this is the case the front tire rights itself b/c it's the path of least, frictional, resistance with the ground.... if it vibrates back and forth it constantly favors the path of least frictional resistance and rights itself..

Granted, I don't think this quite explains away the possibility of the bike leaning to the side with the Axis being the ground beneath the tires...
Though I think it might be related...
If the bike begins to lean the front tire probably is affected, and perhaps the results follow from that path of least resistance that would act to prevent the turning of the tire.

I always though that when a bike was pushed, it started turning slightly. Then the acceleration in a direction which the top of faces means that the bottom travels in that direction and the top travels to a position over it again. That's probably simplistic child thinking though, I'll leave it to the scientists. ;)

No, simplistic thinking has to be correct: The sum of all inertial forces is somehow less when the bike stays straight. The gyroscope is just a multiplier of this effect: By spinning something fast you increase the acceleration that must be applied to move the mass off its straight line. When you spin a circle, that inertial line becomes an inertial plane.

You should tell them that.
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