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What is the evidence of a Mental Ilness

YYW
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8/14/2013 3:29:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:15:33 PM, question4u wrote:
What is the evidence do science have, which can prove that a person has a Mental Illness?

Quite a bit less than you might think, actually. There are two competing schools of thought with regard to mental illness: there are those who think it has a genetic origin, and who therefore are perpetually in search of some genetic marker for mental illness while there are those who just admit that the causes of mental illness aren't within the reach of human knowledge at this point in time. But, the test for mental illness is -and I am being entirely serious- nothing more than the careful observation of a psychiatrist trained in the DSM-5 (it is now, the DSM-5, because the DSM-IV has been replaced). Of course, there are a host of problems associated with that, but essentially the only way that mental illness can be diagnosed is by observation. There are virtually no medical (as we currently understand the word "medical") tests to prove mental illness, or rule it out. There are some of us who think that this means that the field of mental health is, almost entirely, pseudoscience... but others disagree.
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Wnope
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8/14/2013 3:48:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

I used to take the whole Foucalt "It's just society telling us we're wrong" route, then I started really interacting with the controversially named mentally ill who actually are in mental hospitals.

If someone spends his time trying to scratch his skin off because he's convinced it is someone elses, would you consider that to be a physical illness, mental illness, or simply a minor variant on ordinary behavior?
YYW
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8/14/2013 3:48:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

Actually yes, I have. I just take issue with calling schizophrenia an "illness."
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bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/14/2013 3:49:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:48:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

Actually yes, I have. I just take issue with calling schizophrenia an "illness."

Wait, why?
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Wnope
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8/14/2013 3:49:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:48:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

Actually yes, I have. I just take issue with calling schizophrenia an "illness."

If someone was born with an atrophied leg muscle, would you take issue with calling that an illness?
YYW
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8/14/2013 3:50:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:49:34 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:48:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

Actually yes, I have. I just take issue with calling schizophrenia an "illness."

If someone was born with an atrophied leg muscle, would you take issue with calling that an illness?

Apples to oranges, Wnope.
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Wnope
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8/14/2013 3:51:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:50:35 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:49:34 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:48:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

Actually yes, I have. I just take issue with calling schizophrenia an "illness."

If someone was born with an atrophied leg muscle, would you take issue with calling that an illness?

Apples to oranges, Wnope.

Unless you're a substance dualist, I'm not sure how.
YYW
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8/14/2013 3:53:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:49:30 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:48:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

Actually yes, I have. I just take issue with calling schizophrenia an "illness."

Wait, why?

Because an illness is something with a pathogenic cause. We know that influenza is caused by viruses, that staph infections are caused by bacteria, etc. No such link exists for mental "illness" -or, if it does, current science can't prove it.

That is not to say that people with schizophrenia are normal, or that they shouldn't receive medication for it, but it's not an "illness."
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Wnope
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8/14/2013 3:56:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:53:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:49:30 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:48:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

Actually yes, I have. I just take issue with calling schizophrenia an "illness."

Wait, why?

Because an illness is something with a pathogenic cause. We know that influenza is caused by viruses, that staph infections are caused by bacteria, etc. No such link exists for mental "illness" -or, if it does, current science can't prove it.

That is not to say that people with schizophrenia are normal, or that they shouldn't receive medication for it, but it's not an "illness."

Ah, so it's one of those "Mental disorder" not "mental illness" things?

I thought you were going full blown postmodern.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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8/14/2013 4:00:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:53:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:49:30 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:48:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

Actually yes, I have. I just take issue with calling schizophrenia an "illness."

Wait, why?

Because an illness is something with a pathogenic cause. We know that influenza is caused by viruses, that staph infections are caused by bacteria, etc. No such link exists for mental "illness" -or, if it does, current science can't prove it.

That is not to say that people with schizophrenia are normal, or that they shouldn't receive medication for it, but it's not an "illness."

I think I'd disagree that illness is necessarily something with a pathogenic cause.

Disease is = illness, AFAIK. (Okay, that's a bit of an oversimplification. In some circumstances, disease refers to the actual condition and illness refers to a condition which is symptomatic...thus under that paradigm you can have a disease that wouldn't be considered an illness if it's asymptomatic)

Cancer is an illness, right? Yet it's not pathogenic. Nor is hypertension, which is also considered a disease (and, if you're highly symptomatic, you'd be ill as a result of your disease, the illness being symptomatic hypertension).

Disorders are often considered illnesses...wouldn't you consider "mental illness" to be a disorder?
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YYW
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8/14/2013 5:15:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:56:05 PM, Wnope wrote:
I thought you were going full blown postmodern.

Don't tempt me ;)

There is not much that, regarding mental "health," Foucault and I disagree on.
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Sidewalker
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8/15/2013 6:36:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:48:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

Actually yes, I have. I just take issue with calling schizophrenia an "illness."

What do you call it then?

There"s no doubt that psychiatry is trying to over-diagnose and turn normal human emotional responses into pathologies so they can make more money and continue to prescribe unnecessary and harmful drug prescriptions for almost anything. They have expanded the DSM to the point where almost nothing is normal anymore and everything is a pathology that requires psychological treatment, every ordinary feeling and behavior and the normal stress and trains of life are almost all named and included in the new DSM. Nevertheless, some things are indeed mental illnesses, I have also worked with schizophrenics and I don"t see how anybody that is even slightly informed can try to say Schizophrenia isn"t a mental illness.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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8/15/2013 7:13:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:53:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:49:30 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:48:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

Actually yes, I have. I just take issue with calling schizophrenia an "illness."

Wait, why?

Because an illness is something with a pathogenic cause. We know that influenza is caused by viruses, that staph infections are caused by bacteria, etc. No such link exists for mental "illness" -or, if it does, current science can't prove it.

Nonsense, we know a lot about the physiological mechanisms associated with schizophrenia, it has very strong and well understood chemical and physiological consequences that are easily detected medically, most doctors familiar with the treatment of schizophrenics can even detect a unique smell associated with the illness.

That is not to say that people with schizophrenia are normal, or that they shouldn't receive medication for it, but it's not an "illness."

The hell it isn't, if you had to limit the DSM to only two or three mental illnesses, I'm pretty sure the consensus medical opinion is that schizophrenia would need to be one of them.

I know what I'm talking about here, in an article about this over diagnosis problem the Atlanta Journal Constitution called me a "tireless advocate of the Neurodiversity Movement" and a "scourge of the DSM-V Committee" and yes, I'm bragging because I am very proud of the decade long pitched battle I've waged with the committee to get Asperger's and other high functioning autisms removed from the DSM-V, I have been vehement and love that I used the media to make it personal with these people. Schizophrenia is what I typically use as an example to contrast to when making the point that Asperger's is not a mental illness and I've never been called out on schizophrenia not being considered a valid mental illness, not once, and the opposition certainly would if they could.

The point is that I am very familiar with what you are referring to here, in some extremely attenuated way I may have even influenced your opinion about it because I did my part in raising awareness and got the issue a lot of press, so I will be the first to admit that what you are saying is valid in a lot of areas, but I will also be the first to tell you that schizophrenia needs to stay in the DSM, it is clearly a severe mental illness, and if it isn't, then I sure don't know what can be considered a mental illness.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Fractals
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8/15/2013 7:53:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The question is weirdly worded but it's composed of 2 main branching things. 1. A crap ton of research and published papers. 2. Trained professional who apply that research.
YYW
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8/15/2013 8:27:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 7:13:05 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:53:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:49:30 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:48:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

Actually yes, I have. I just take issue with calling schizophrenia an "illness."

Wait, why?

Because an illness is something with a pathogenic cause. We know that influenza is caused by viruses, that staph infections are caused by bacteria, etc. No such link exists for mental "illness" -or, if it does, current science can't prove it.

Nonsense, we know a lot about the physiological mechanisms associated with schizophrenia, it has very strong and well understood chemical and physiological consequences that are easily detected medically, most doctors familiar with the treatment of schizophrenics can even detect a unique smell associated with the illness.

Ahem... bullsh!t


That is not to say that people with schizophrenia are normal, or that they shouldn't receive medication for it, but it's not an "illness."

The hell it isn't, if you had to limit the DSM to only two or three mental illnesses, I'm pretty sure the consensus medical opinion is that schizophrenia would need to be one of them.

lol

I know what I'm talking about here, in an article about this over diagnosis problem the Atlanta Journal Constitution called me a "tireless advocate of the Neurodiversity Movement" and a "scourge of the DSM-V Committee" and yes, I'm bragging because I am very proud of the decade long pitched battle I've waged with the committee to get Asperger's and other high functioning autisms removed from the DSM-V, I have been vehement and love that I used the media to make it personal with these people. Schizophrenia is what I typically use as an example to contrast to when making the point that Asperger's is not a mental illness and I've never been called out on schizophrenia not being considered a valid mental illness, not once, and the opposition certainly would if they could.

Would you like another reading list?
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v3nesl
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8/15/2013 8:54:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:15:33 PM, question4u wrote:
What is the evidence do science have, which can prove that a person has a Mental Illness?

I'd just add to this - we shouldn't think of mental illness exclusively in terms of crazy. How about Alzheimer's for instance - that's pretty clearly physical illness. Maybe the confusion is part of the overall rejection of the spirit in modern thought - brain disease is easy enough to agree to, but disease of the mind - that's really quite different, isn't it?
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DanT
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8/15/2013 1:41:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:15:33 PM, question4u wrote:
What is the evidence do science have, which can prove that a person has a Mental Illness?

Depends on the disorder. Mental illness has to do with the function of the brain. Over-activity or under-activity of a specific region of the brain can cause behavior and cognitive abnormalities. Chemical imbalances can cause abnormalities. Environmental factors can cause abnormalities, and so on. Scanning brain activity, and dissecting the brains of the deceased help us understand mental illnesses. The cause of mental illness depends on the illness its-self. Just as the cause of a rash or sore throat depends on the illness its self. There are a multitude of factors that can create mental illness.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
question4u
Posts: 492
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8/16/2013 2:31:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

According to many schizophrenic people that I researched that medicine does not help but make it worst... such as the patient losing control of to the schizophrenia. I dont think medicine works at all for it
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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8/16/2013 6:38:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/15/2013 7:13:05 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:53:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:49:30 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:48:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

Actually yes, I have. I just take issue with calling schizophrenia an "illness."

Wait, why?

Because an illness is something with a pathogenic cause. We know that influenza is caused by viruses, that staph infections are caused by bacteria, etc. No such link exists for mental "illness" -or, if it does, current science can't prove it.

Nonsense, we know a lot about the physiological mechanisms associated with schizophrenia, it has very strong and well understood chemical and physiological consequences that are easily detected medically, most doctors familiar with the treatment of schizophrenics can even detect a unique smell associated with the illness.

That is not to say that people with schizophrenia are normal, or that they shouldn't receive medication for it, but it's not an "illness."

The hell it isn't, if you had to limit the DSM to only two or three mental illnesses, I'm pretty sure the consensus medical opinion is that schizophrenia would need to be one of them.

I know what I'm talking about here, in an article about this over diagnosis problem the Atlanta Journal Constitution called me a "tireless advocate of the Neurodiversity Movement" and a "scourge of the DSM-V Committee" and yes, I'm bragging because I am very proud of the decade long pitched battle I've waged with the committee to get Asperger's and other high functioning autisms removed from the DSM-V, I have been vehement and love that I used the media to make it personal with these people. Schizophrenia is what I typically use as an example to contrast to when making the point that Asperger's is not a mental illness and I've never been called out on schizophrenia not being considered a valid mental illness, not once, and the opposition certainly would if they could.

The point is that I am very familiar with what you are referring to here, in some extremely attenuated way I may have even influenced your opinion about it because I did my part in raising awareness and got the issue a lot of press, so I will be the first to admit that what you are saying is valid in a lot of areas, but I will also be the first to tell you that schizophrenia needs to stay in the DSM, it is clearly a severe mental illness, and if it isn't, then I sure don't know what can be considered a mental illness.

The only issue with bragging is that you can inadvertently reveal your actual identity.
Wnope
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8/16/2013 6:40:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 2:31:14 PM, question4u wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

According to many schizophrenic people that I researched that medicine does not help but make it worst... such as the patient losing control of to the schizophrenia. I dont think medicine works at all for it

Could you provide an example?
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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8/16/2013 7:00:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 6:38:22 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 8/15/2013 7:13:05 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:53:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:49:30 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:48:51 PM, YYW wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

Actually yes, I have. I just take issue with calling schizophrenia an "illness."

Wait, why?

Because an illness is something with a pathogenic cause. We know that influenza is caused by viruses, that staph infections are caused by bacteria, etc. No such link exists for mental "illness" -or, if it does, current science can't prove it.

Nonsense, we know a lot about the physiological mechanisms associated with schizophrenia, it has very strong and well understood chemical and physiological consequences that are easily detected medically, most doctors familiar with the treatment of schizophrenics can even detect a unique smell associated with the illness.

That is not to say that people with schizophrenia are normal, or that they shouldn't receive medication for it, but it's not an "illness."

The hell it isn't, if you had to limit the DSM to only two or three mental illnesses, I'm pretty sure the consensus medical opinion is that schizophrenia would need to be one of them.

I know what I'm talking about here, in an article about this over diagnosis problem the Atlanta Journal Constitution called me a "tireless advocate of the Neurodiversity Movement" and a "scourge of the DSM-V Committee" and yes, I'm bragging because I am very proud of the decade long pitched battle I've waged with the committee to get Asperger's and other high functioning autisms removed from the DSM-V, I have been vehement and love that I used the media to make it personal with these people. Schizophrenia is what I typically use as an example to contrast to when making the point that Asperger's is not a mental illness and I've never been called out on schizophrenia not being considered a valid mental illness, not once, and the opposition certainly would if they could.

The point is that I am very familiar with what you are referring to here, in some extremely attenuated way I may have even influenced your opinion about it because I did my part in raising awareness and got the issue a lot of press, so I will be the first to admit that what you are saying is valid in a lot of areas, but I will also be the first to tell you that schizophrenia needs to stay in the DSM, it is clearly a severe mental illness, and if it isn't, then I sure don't know what can be considered a mental illness.

The only issue with bragging is that you can inadvertently reveal your actual identity.

Yeah, but I figure anybody that can figure out who I am from that already knows who I am.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
question4u
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8/20/2013 3:45:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/16/2013 6:40:27 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 8/16/2013 2:31:14 PM, question4u wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

According to many schizophrenic people that I researched that medicine does not help but make it worst... such as the patient losing control of to the schizophrenia. I dont think medicine works at all for it

Could you provide an example?

This is an example... They basically tried several medications and none of them worked but patients got worst.
Wnope
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8/20/2013 3:50:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 3:45:29 PM, question4u wrote:
At 8/16/2013 6:40:27 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 8/16/2013 2:31:14 PM, question4u wrote:
At 8/14/2013 3:46:17 PM, Wnope wrote:
Sooo..... have either of you spent some time with an unmedicated schizophrenic?

Just curious.

According to many schizophrenic people that I researched that medicine does not help but make it worst... such as the patient losing control of to the schizophrenia. I dont think medicine works at all for it

Could you provide an example?





This is an example... They basically tried several medications and none of them worked but patients got worst.

You wouldn't happen to have text versions, would you?

I'll take your word for it that these cases are true.

However, I would hesitate to say they are representative. Many people who take anti-depressants end up killing themselves in part due to reactions from those medications, but for most the treatment is very effective.
Sidewalker
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8/20/2013 6:40:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/14/2013 3:15:33 PM, question4u wrote:
What is the evidence do science have, which can prove that a person has a Mental Illness?

I think posting on DDO is conclusive evidence that a person is mentally ill.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
R0b1Billion
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8/20/2013 9:41:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm not sure I understand the semantics you guys are engaging in regarding pathogenic causes of "illnesses," but if I crack you upside the head with a baseball bat and you go retarded then I'm not sure what isn't clear-cut about that.

As far as specific illnesses are concerned, they would have to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. My mother was schizophrenic, and she swam into the ocean and never swam back. It was clearly genetically-caused (she had episodes of weirdness as a child). Psychological medication is hard to figure out, it can offer some short-term benefits but the overall utility of it is hard to determine. My mother was easier for us to deal with when medicated, but the medication could have very well contributed to her suicidal tendencies.

As far as psychology as a science, the movie "Sphere" comes to mind. In it, Dustin Hoffman is a psychologist accompanying a team of scientists on a mission... I remember the part where he explains that he is the only non-scientist on the mission, and I remember when I heard that part I was surprised because I had always considered psychology a science. While it definitely uses the scientific method, I suppose the data involved in the method are never precise enough to truly be called scientific... for example, what is a schizophrenic? We categorize them with some subjective criteria, but nobody can say for sure what one really is and we might as well just say that every human being is unique and there are no categories of that kind.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
question4u
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8/21/2013 11:45:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 9:41:05 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the semantics you guys are engaging in regarding pathogenic causes of "illnesses," but if I crack you upside the head with a baseball bat and you go retarded then I'm not sure what isn't clear-cut about that.

As far as specific illnesses are concerned, they would have to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. My mother was schizophrenic, and she swam into the ocean and never swam back. It was clearly genetically-caused (she had episodes of weirdness as a child). Psychological medication is hard to figure out, it can offer some short-term benefits but the overall utility of it is hard to determine. My mother was easier for us to deal with when medicated, but the medication could have very well contributed to her suicidal tendencies.

As far as psychology as a science, the movie "Sphere" comes to mind. In it, Dustin Hoffman is a psychologist accompanying a team of scientists on a mission... I remember the part where he explains that he is the only non-scientist on the mission, and I remember when I heard that part I was surprised because I had always considered psychology a science. While it definitely uses the scientific method, I suppose the data involved in the method are never precise enough to truly be called scientific... for example, what is a schizophrenic? We categorize them with some subjective criteria, but nobody can say for sure what one really is and we might as well just say that every human being is unique and there are no categories of that kind.

Very sad to read, but thank you for sharing it
R0b1Billion
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8/21/2013 7:47:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/21/2013 11:45:13 AM, question4u wrote:
At 8/20/2013 9:41:05 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the semantics you guys are engaging in regarding pathogenic causes of "illnesses," but if I crack you upside the head with a baseball bat and you go retarded then I'm not sure what isn't clear-cut about that.

As far as specific illnesses are concerned, they would have to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. My mother was schizophrenic, and she swam into the ocean and never swam back. It was clearly genetically-caused (she had episodes of weirdness as a child). Psychological medication is hard to figure out, it can offer some short-term benefits but the overall utility of it is hard to determine. My mother was easier for us to deal with when medicated, but the medication could have very well contributed to her suicidal tendencies.

As far as psychology as a science, the movie "Sphere" comes to mind. In it, Dustin Hoffman is a psychologist accompanying a team of scientists on a mission... I remember the part where he explains that he is the only non-scientist on the mission, and I remember when I heard that part I was surprised because I had always considered psychology a science. While it definitely uses the scientific method, I suppose the data involved in the method are never precise enough to truly be called scientific... for example, what is a schizophrenic? We categorize them with some subjective criteria, but nobody can say for sure what one really is and we might as well just say that every human being is unique and there are no categories of that kind.

Very sad to read, but thank you for sharing it

My mom died when I was 20 (I'm 32 now), it was so long ago there isn't really any emotion left in it. From time to time I think about what it would be like if she was here, and I do regret that I wasn't able to show her a better side of me before she left, but she wasn't very good at this life and it was obvious she wanted out. There's nobody to criticize her about her job performance, motherly performance, or to tell her to take her pills where she's at now and I have to be happy for her in that sense :/
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
v3nesl
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8/23/2013 8:36:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/20/2013 3:50:07 PM, Wnope wrote:
...

However, I would hesitate to say they are representative. Many people who take anti-depressants end up killing themselves in part due to reactions from those medications, but for most the treatment is very effective.

This was once explained to me by an MD - he said it's actually a sort of counter-intuitive side effect of anti-depressants working. As the person is coming back up from the pit, they start to think about doing something about fixing their problem, and the fix they select in their partially improved state is suicide. It's actually a first glimmer of hope for the severely depressed, the idea that "I can fix this". So, according to him, there's this danger period that you just have to get patients through.
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