Total Posts:14|Showing Posts:1-14

# measuring the pi

 Posts: 1,115 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/15/2013 6:48:28 AMPosted: 4 years agoI just got an idea on how to easily measure the exact number of pi.Let's say pi is equal to 22/7 which is 3.1423571...I think we can extract the exact nature of this number by using realistic volume metric of a physical object to facilitate the measurement.For example, I will do this by preparing a 22 litres of water, then divide it by 3 litres for 7 unit. The rest of the water will be the exact value of pi.Do you think this kind of measurement is possible? or am I understanding the pi wrong some where?Not expect it to be that easy.
 Posts: 3,781 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/15/2013 11:31:15 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 8/15/2013 6:48:28 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:I just got an idea on how to easily measure the exact number of pi.Let's say pi is equal to 22/7 which is 3.1423571...I think we can extract the exact nature of this number by using realistic volume metric of a physical object to facilitate the measurement.For example, I will do this by preparing a 22 litres of water, then divide it by 3 litres for 7 unit. The rest of the water will be the exact value of pi.Do you think this kind of measurement is possible? or am I understanding the pi wrong some where?Not expect it to be that easy.No fraction represents Pi.bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign! http://www.debate.org... http://www.debate.org... - Running for president. http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president. May the best man win!
 Posts: 751 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/15/2013 2:13:51 PMPosted: 4 years agoLet's say pi is equal to 22/7 which is 3.1423571...The odd thing is that neither 22/7 nor pi is 3.1423571...But besides that saying that pi equals something it doesn't kind of defeats the purpose of measuring pi doesn't it?Do you think this kind of measurement is possible? or am I understanding the pi wrong some where?So what is more accurate: mathematically calculating pi to hundreds of places which is routinely done or trying to measure some quantity of water down to trillion-trillionths of a liter accuracy?
 Posts: 1,023 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/15/2013 2:35:09 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 8/15/2013 2:13:51 PM, Floid wrote:Let's say pi is equal to 22/7 which is 3.1423571...The odd thing is that neither 22/7 nor pi is 3.1423571...But besides that saying that pi equals something it doesn't kind of defeats the purpose of measuring pi doesn't it?Do you think this kind of measurement is possible? or am I understanding the pi wrong some where?So what is more accurate: mathematically calculating pi to hundreds of places which is routinely done or trying to measure some quantity of water down to trillion-trillionths of a liter accuracy?Not to mention that pi is infinitely non-repeating and any quantity of water will have a finite amount of atoms..
 Posts: 1,023 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/15/2013 2:35:40 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 8/15/2013 2:35:09 PM, Enji wrote:At 8/15/2013 2:13:51 PM, Floid wrote:Let's say pi is equal to 22/7 which is 3.1423571...The odd thing is that neither 22/7 nor pi is 3.1423571...But besides that saying that pi equals something it doesn't kind of defeats the purpose of measuring pi doesn't it?Do you think this kind of measurement is possible? or am I understanding the pi wrong some where?So what is more accurate: mathematically calculating pi to hundreds of places which is routinely done or trying to measure some quantity of water down to trillion-trillionths of a liter accuracy?Not to mention that pi is infinitely non-repeating and any quantity of water will have a finite number of atoms..fixed
 Posts: 4,236 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/15/2013 6:20:40 PMPosted: 4 years agoThis is ridiculous. If you make pi equal something else, specifically a number that can be represented as a fraction (e.g. 22/7), sure, the experiment may work, but the result will only equal that 22/7, not the real value of pi.Pi is an irrational number, meaning that it can't "equal" anything, nor can it "equal" any fraction (by "equal", I mean equivalent - approximating the values does not give the true answer).So, in other words, you're experiment would work, except that you've screwed with pi in order to make the experiment work. If pi just equaled pi, that experiment would never be possible considering that any tangible amount of matter, be it a solid, liquid, or gas, would only contain a finite number of atoms. You can't make an irrational number equal a rational number.We are not dead. We have never lived. - Varg Vikernes, "Det som en gang var"
 Posts: 1,115 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/16/2013 12:32:02 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 8/15/2013 6:20:40 PM, Subutai wrote:This is ridiculous. If you make pi equal something else, specifically a number that can be represented as a fraction (e.g. 22/7), sure, the experiment may work, but the result will only equal that 22/7, not the real value of pi.Pi is an irrational number, meaning that it can't "equal" anything, nor can it "equal" any fraction (by "equal", I mean equivalent - approximating the values does not give the true answer).So, in other words, you're experiment would work, except that you've screwed with pi in order to make the experiment work. If pi just equaled pi, that experiment would never be possible considering that any tangible amount of matter, be it a solid, liquid, or gas, would only contain a finite number of atoms. You can't make an irrational number equal a rational number.What do the pi actually represent then? This may be my opinion only, but if the pi is based on physical number then it should be possible to measure through physical object. Number that cannot be represented physically is simply not exist, is it not?
 Posts: 751 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/16/2013 7:00:54 AMPosted: 4 years agoThe ratio of circles circumference to its diameter. You could look this stuff up yourself...
 Posts: 18,870 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/16/2013 7:07:05 AMPosted: 4 years ago39 digits of PI are all that is needed to determine the circumference of the universe, based on its radius, to a degree of accuracy smaller than the width of a proton.We currently have "measured" PI to over 5 trillion digits.
 Posts: 18,870 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/16/2013 7:10:12 AMPosted: 4 years agoThis tells us two things:1. There is no practical benefit to knowing PI more accurately than we do now.2. It would be impossible to perform any experiment using physical objects to determine the accuracy of PI to a greater degree than already known.
 Posts: 3,781 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/16/2013 9:49:02 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 8/16/2013 7:10:12 AM, drafterman wrote:This tells us two things:1. There is no practical benefit to knowing PI more accurately than we do now.I wouldn't say that. Repeating calculations have compounding inaccuracy, so the more accurate the better. But yes, for most/all straight calculations, and pretty much everything else, we only need to know Pi to maybe 100 significant places.2. It would be impossible to perform any experiment using physical objects to determine the accuracy of PI to a greater degree than already known.Something about a rotating wheel? But yeah, there's no point trying to work it out using physical objects nowadays, the maths is far more practical and accurate.bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign! http://www.debate.org... http://www.debate.org... - Running for president. http://www.debate.org... - Running as his vice president. May the best man win!
 Posts: 4,236 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/16/2013 1:44:07 PMPosted: 4 years agoAt 8/16/2013 12:32:02 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:At 8/15/2013 6:20:40 PM, Subutai wrote:This is ridiculous. If you make pi equal something else, specifically a number that can be represented as a fraction (e.g. 22/7), sure, the experiment may work, but the result will only equal that 22/7, not the real value of pi.Pi is an irrational number, meaning that it can't "equal" anything, nor can it "equal" any fraction (by "equal", I mean equivalent - approximating the values does not give the true answer).So, in other words, you're experiment would work, except that you've screwed with pi in order to make the experiment work. If pi just equaled pi, that experiment would never be possible considering that any tangible amount of matter, be it a solid, liquid, or gas, would only contain a finite number of atoms. You can't make an irrational number equal a rational number.What do the pi actually represent then? This may be my opinion only, but if the pi is based on physical number then it should be possible to measure through physical object. Number that cannot be represented physically is simply not exist, is it not?Pi is simply the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. For example, if a circle has a diameter of 1, it will have a circumference of 3.14159265359... Pi is a real number, albeit it is an irrational decimal, therefore it wouldn't be possible to measure it exactly. You can measure pi, although it will be off from the exact value of pi. This is different than, say, i, which is an imaginary number, and through no means of experimentation can i ever be physically represented.We are not dead. We have never lived. - Varg Vikernes, "Det som en gang var"
 Posts: 516 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/17/2013 8:31:06 AMPosted: 4 years agoOr we could use tau.
 Posts: 38 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 8/19/2013 1:59:44 AMPosted: 4 years agoAt 8/15/2013 6:48:28 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:The rest of the water will be the exact value of pi.Naw. You end up with an approximation, not the exact value. There is no fraction for the exact value.To look at it another way, we know pi is an irrational number (in the technical sense) - so it can't be represented in the way you suggest, by fraction or volume.