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Brain development and the non-sequitur.

themohawkninja
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12/15/2013 11:39:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I have been noticing that whenever a opinion/poll shows up revolving around the legalization of sexual intercourse with minors, the side that is against such legalization points to the fact that the human brain tends to not be fully developed until around age 25. They conclude that since the brain isn't fully developed, the human mind can't really comprehend <u>any</u> consequences of their actions, and therefore such legalization is a bad idea.

While I do not want this thread to turn into a debate about such legislation, I do want to point out that such conclusions are for one thing false (I'm sure everyone here can remember a time before they were 25 where they understood the consequences of their actions), and for another thing, as the title suggests, is that it is a non-sequitur.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/16/2013 2:22:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2013 11:39:54 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
I have been noticing that whenever a opinion/poll shows up revolving around the legalization of sexual intercourse with minors, the side that is against such legalization points to the fact that the human brain tends to not be fully developed until around age 25. They conclude that since the brain isn't fully developed, the human mind can't really comprehend <u>any</u> consequences of their actions, and therefore such legalization is a bad idea.

While I do not want this thread to turn into a debate about such legislation, I do want to point out that such conclusions are for one thing false (I'm sure everyone here can remember a time before they were 25 where they understood the consequences of their actions), and for another thing, as the title suggests, is that it is a non-sequitur.

The statement that the human brain isn't fully formed until the early twenties is actually correct. Far from being false, it can be shown that there is significant brain development up to the mid twenties.

Moreover, it only takes a brief look at insurance premiums crime rates and metrics to demonstrate that there is a very marked difference in behaviour in adolescents that show that they are more likely to act on impulse and engage in riskier behaviour: in part due to brain development.

Even to counter your final argument about "understanding the consequences of ones actions", I remember thinking it would be a great to roller blade down the road of one of the largest hills in my home town at 2am. I retrospect, if I had encountered any cars on the way down, I probably wouldnt be here (I must have topped out at about 40mph with no brakes) .

I probably speak for most people when I say the volumn of dumb stuff Ive all done while teenage vastly exceed the amount of dumb stuff I've done as an adult.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with the initial argument, but there is very much more than an element of truth in the statement that teenagers take more risks and are less attuned to the consequences of their actions than are adults due to their state of brain development.
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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12/16/2013 2:27:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 2:22:57 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2013 11:39:54 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
I have been noticing that whenever a opinion/poll shows up revolving around the legalization of sexual intercourse with minors, the side that is against such legalization points to the fact that the human brain tends to not be fully developed until around age 25. They conclude that since the brain isn't fully developed, the human mind can't really comprehend <u>any</u> consequences of their actions, and therefore such legalization is a bad idea.

While I do not want this thread to turn into a debate about such legislation, I do want to point out that such conclusions are for one thing false (I'm sure everyone here can remember a time before they were 25 where they understood the consequences of their actions), and for another thing, as the title suggests, is that it is a non-sequitur.

The statement that the human brain isn't fully formed until the early twenties is actually correct. Far from being false, it can be shown that there is significant brain development up to the mid twenties.

I'm not saying that the development of the human brain is false, I am saying that the conclusions that are drawn from it are false.

Moreover, it only takes a brief look at insurance premiums crime rates and metrics to demonstrate that there is a very marked difference in behaviour in adolescents that show that they are more likely to act on impulse and engage in riskier behaviour: in part due to brain development.

That also has to do with a lack of experience.

Even to counter your final argument about "understanding the consequences of ones actions", I remember thinking it would be a great to roller blade down the road of one of the largest hills in my home town at 2am. I retrospect, if I had encountered any cars on the way down, I probably wouldnt be here (I must have topped out at about 40mph with no brakes) .

Being 2 AM was actually a smart idea on your part, seeing as there wouldn't be many cars on the road.

I probably speak for most people when I say the volumn of dumb stuff Ive all done while teenage vastly exceed the amount of dumb stuff I've done as an adult.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with the initial argument, but there is very much more than an element of truth in the statement that teenagers take more risks and are less attuned to the consequences of their actions than are adults due to their state of brain development.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that it is a logical conclusion to say that teenagers can't comprehend anything, which is what many people like to say, and henceforth what I am refuting.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/16/2013 3:47:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 2:27:47 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/16/2013 2:22:57 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2013 11:39:54 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
I have been noticing that whenever a opinion/poll shows up revolving around the legalization of sexual intercourse with minors, the side that is against such legalization points to the fact that the human brain tends to not be fully developed until around age 25. They conclude that since the brain isn't fully developed, the human mind can't really comprehend <u>any</u> consequences of their actions, and therefore such legalization is a bad idea.

While I do not want this thread to turn into a debate about such legislation, I do want to point out that such conclusions are for one thing false (I'm sure everyone here can remember a time before they were 25 where they understood the consequences of their actions), and for another thing, as the title suggests, is that it is a non-sequitur.

The statement that the human brain isn't fully formed until the early twenties is actually correct. Far from being false, it can be shown that there is significant brain development up to the mid twenties.

I'm not saying that the development of the human brain is false, I am saying that the conclusions that are drawn from it are false.

As I said, I wouldnt agree, but there is definitely an element of truth to the statement.

Moreover, it only takes a brief look at insurance premiums crime rates and metrics to demonstrate that there is a very marked difference in behaviour in adolescents that show that they are more likely to act on impulse and engage in riskier behaviour: in part due to brain development.

That also has to do with a lack of experience.

Not particularly, younger children are far less experienced and take fewer risks. It's due to the later development of the prefrontal cortex which is responsible for constraining riskier decisions that, this is what real brain studies demonstrate.


Even to counter your final argument about "understanding the consequences of ones actions", I remember thinking it would be a great to roller blade down the road of one of the largest hills in my home town at 2am. I retrospect, if I had encountered any cars on the way down, I probably wouldnt be here (I must have topped out at about 40mph with no brakes) .

Being 2 AM was actually a smart idea on your part, seeing as there wouldn't be many cars on the road.

Smarter than day time, but somethin I'd never consider today partly because my brain has caught up.


I probably speak for most people when I say the volumn of dumb stuff Ive all done while teenage vastly exceed the amount of dumb stuff I've done as an adult.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with the initial argument, but there is very much more than an element of truth in the statement that teenagers take more risks and are less attuned to the consequences of their actions than are adults due to their state of brain development.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that it is a logical conclusion to say that teenagers can't comprehend anything, which is what many people like to say, and henceforth what I am refuting.

I would genuinely like to see who said that.

But as I said, there is an element of truth due to evidence that can be demonstrated by studies of the brain.
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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12/16/2013 3:58:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 3:47:17 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/16/2013 2:27:47 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/16/2013 2:22:57 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2013 11:39:54 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
I have been noticing that whenever a opinion/poll shows up revolving around the legalization of sexual intercourse with minors, the side that is against such legalization points to the fact that the human brain tends to not be fully developed until around age 25. They conclude that since the brain isn't fully developed, the human mind can't really comprehend <u>any</u> consequences of their actions, and therefore such legalization is a bad idea.

While I do not want this thread to turn into a debate about such legislation, I do want to point out that such conclusions are for one thing false (I'm sure everyone here can remember a time before they were 25 where they understood the consequences of their actions), and for another thing, as the title suggests, is that it is a non-sequitur.

The statement that the human brain isn't fully formed until the early twenties is actually correct. Far from being false, it can be shown that there is significant brain development up to the mid twenties.

I'm not saying that the development of the human brain is false, I am saying that the conclusions that are drawn from it are false.

As I said, I wouldnt agree, but there is definitely an element of truth to the statement.

Moreover, it only takes a brief look at insurance premiums crime rates and metrics to demonstrate that there is a very marked difference in behaviour in adolescents that show that they are more likely to act on impulse and engage in riskier behaviour: in part due to brain development.

That also has to do with a lack of experience.

Not particularly, younger children are far less experienced and take fewer risks. It's due to the later development of the prefrontal cortex which is responsible for constraining riskier decisions that, this is what real brain studies demonstrate.

Those studies only look at the effects of brain development on behavior. Unless I missed a study, they don't take into account the experience that the child has.


Even to counter your final argument about "understanding the consequences of ones actions", I remember thinking it would be a great to roller blade down the road of one of the largest hills in my home town at 2am. I retrospect, if I had encountered any cars on the way down, I probably wouldnt be here (I must have topped out at about 40mph with no brakes) .

Being 2 AM was actually a smart idea on your part, seeing as there wouldn't be many cars on the road.

Smarter than day time, but somethin I'd never consider today partly because my brain has caught up.

It was a smart idea none-the-less. Also, how much of it was your brain development, and how much of it was your experience?


I probably speak for most people when I say the volumn of dumb stuff Ive all done while teenage vastly exceed the amount of dumb stuff I've done as an adult.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with the initial argument, but there is very much more than an element of truth in the statement that teenagers take more risks and are less attuned to the consequences of their actions than are adults due to their state of brain development.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that it is a logical conclusion to say that teenagers can't comprehend anything, which is what many people like to say, and henceforth what I am refuting.

I would genuinely like to see who said that.

But as I said, there is an element of truth due to evidence that can be demonstrated by studies of the brain.

Well, to be fair, they don't say that they can't comprehend anything, but they use it as a reason against sexual intercourse with kids, which implies that they believe that the lack of brain development is significant enough to retain the current legislation.

Again, I acknowledge the scientific evidence, but I don't see that evidence as proving a significant enough difference to illicit such conclusions.

I'm not 25 yet, but does that mean I should make life-altering decisions like what to major it? Of course not, since that would be delaying my ability to get into a career!
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/16/2013 4:54:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 3:58:00 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
Not particularly, younger children are far less experienced and take fewer risks. It's due to the later development of the prefrontal cortex which is responsible for constraining riskier decisions that, this is what real brain studies demonstrate.

Those studies only look at the effects of brain development on behavior. Unless I missed a study, they don't take into account the experience that the child has.

Partly, but then again, I'm not saying that every child is the same, things such as experience, temperament, etc all play their part: but fundamentally the studies demonstrate a legitimate and existing developmental feature of adolescents that means that they are more prone to take more risks and act more impulsively than adults, for explainable neurological reasons.


Even to counter your final argument about "understanding the consequences of ones actions", I remember thinking it would be a great to roller blade down the road of one of the largest hills in my home town at 2am. I retrospect, if I had encountered any cars on the way down, I probably wouldnt be here (I must have topped out at about 40mph with no brakes) .

Being 2 AM was actually a smart idea on your part, seeing as there wouldn't be many cars on the road.

Smarter than day time, but somethin I'd never consider today partly because my brain has caught up.

It was a smart idea none-the-less. Also, how much of it was your brain development, and how much of it was your experience?

I can assure you, a smart idea it was not: I figured out that much as I was halfway down the mile long road and started speed wobbling and encountering the first roundabout. Less dumb, yes, but not smart.

I can assure you that my experience and general intelligence told me that it maybe okay at 2am, but most likely my brain development that made me think it was a good idea all. Either way, after the fact that is difficult to prove. All I can demonstrate to you is a pattern of risk taking and impulsive behaviour in adolescences that is far higher than in adult. This experience is but one example.

I probably speak for most people when I say the volumn of dumb stuff Ive all done while teenage vastly exceed the amount of dumb stuff I've done as an adult.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with the initial argument, but there is very much more than an element of truth in the statement that teenagers take more risks and are less attuned to the consequences of their actions than are adults due to their state of brain development.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that it is a logical conclusion to say that teenagers can't comprehend anything, which is what many people like to say, and henceforth what I am refuting.

I would genuinely like to see who said that.

But as I said, there is an element of truth due to evidence that can be demonstrated by studies of the brain.

Well, to be fair, they don't say that they can't comprehend anything, but they use it as a reason against sexual intercourse with kids, which implies that they believe that the lack of brain development is significant enough to retain the current legislation.

As I said, I may not agree with the conclusion, but the premise isnt false as you suggest, in fact it is demonstrable.

Again, I acknowledge the scientific evidence, but I don't see that evidence as proving a significant enough difference to illicit such conclusions.

As I said, Im not saying I agree with the conclusion, the argument was mainly concerning the premise.

I'm not 25 yet, but does that mean I should make life-altering decisions like what to major it? Of course not, since that would be delaying my ability to get into a career!

I would agree, but for slightly different reasons completely irrelevant to this discussion :)
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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12/16/2013 5:03:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 4:54:24 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/16/2013 3:58:00 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
Not particularly, younger children are far less experienced and take fewer risks. It's due to the later development of the prefrontal cortex which is responsible for constraining riskier decisions that, this is what real brain studies demonstrate.

Those studies only look at the effects of brain development on behavior. Unless I missed a study, they don't take into account the experience that the child has.

Partly, but then again, I'm not saying that every child is the same, things such as experience, temperament, etc all play their part: but fundamentally the studies demonstrate a legitimate and existing developmental feature of adolescents that means that they are more prone to take more risks and act more impulsively than adults, for explainable neurological reasons.

Which I am not denying.


Even to counter your final argument about "understanding the consequences of ones actions", I remember thinking it would be a great to roller blade down the road of one of the largest hills in my home town at 2am. I retrospect, if I had encountered any cars on the way down, I probably wouldnt be here (I must have topped out at about 40mph with no brakes) .

Being 2 AM was actually a smart idea on your part, seeing as there wouldn't be many cars on the road.

Smarter than day time, but somethin I'd never consider today partly because my brain has caught up.

It was a smart idea none-the-less. Also, how much of it was your brain development, and how much of it was your experience?

I can assure you, a smart idea it was not: I figured out that much as I was halfway down the mile long road and started speed wobbling and encountering the first roundabout. Less dumb, yes, but not smart.

I can assure you that my experience and general intelligence told me that it maybe okay at 2am, but most likely my brain development that made me think it was a good idea all. Either way, after the fact that is difficult to prove. All I can demonstrate to you is a pattern of risk taking and impulsive behaviour in adolescences that is far higher than in adult. This experience is but one example.

To which I also agree.

I probably speak for most people when I say the volumn of dumb stuff Ive all done while teenage vastly exceed the amount of dumb stuff I've done as an adult.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with the initial argument, but there is very much more than an element of truth in the statement that teenagers take more risks and are less attuned to the consequences of their actions than are adults due to their state of brain development.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that it is a logical conclusion to say that teenagers can't comprehend anything, which is what many people like to say, and henceforth what I am refuting.

I would genuinely like to see who said that.

But as I said, there is an element of truth due to evidence that can be demonstrated by studies of the brain.

Well, to be fair, they don't say that they can't comprehend anything, but they use it as a reason against sexual intercourse with kids, which implies that they believe that the lack of brain development is significant enough to retain the current legislation.

As I said, I may not agree with the conclusion, but the premise isnt false as you suggest, in fact it is demonstrable.

I'm not saying that the premise is false.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/16/2013 5:05:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 5:03:33 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/16/2013 4:54:24 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/16/2013 3:58:00 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
Not particularly, younger children are far less experienced and take fewer risks. It's due to the later development of the prefrontal cortex which is responsible for constraining riskier decisions that, this is what real brain studies demonstrate.

Those studies only look at the effects of brain development on behavior. Unless I missed a study, they don't take into account the experience that the child has.

Partly, but then again, I'm not saying that every child is the same, things such as experience, temperament, etc all play their part: but fundamentally the studies demonstrate a legitimate and existing developmental feature of adolescents that means that they are more prone to take more risks and act more impulsively than adults, for explainable neurological reasons.

Which I am not denying.

Damn.



Even to counter your final argument about "understanding the consequences of ones actions", I remember thinking it would be a great to roller blade down the road of one of the largest hills in my home town at 2am. I retrospect, if I had encountered any cars on the way down, I probably wouldnt be here (I must have topped out at about 40mph with no brakes) .

Being 2 AM was actually a smart idea on your part, seeing as there wouldn't be many cars on the road.

Smarter than day time, but somethin I'd never consider today partly because my brain has caught up.

It was a smart idea none-the-less. Also, how much of it was your brain development, and how much of it was your experience?

I can assure you, a smart idea it was not: I figured out that much as I was halfway down the mile long road and started speed wobbling and encountering the first roundabout. Less dumb, yes, but not smart.

I can assure you that my experience and general intelligence told me that it maybe okay at 2am, but most likely my brain development that made me think it was a good idea all. Either way, after the fact that is difficult to prove. All I can demonstrate to you is a pattern of risk taking and impulsive behaviour in adolescences that is far higher than in adult. This experience is but one example.

To which I also agree.

Blast.

I probably speak for most people when I say the volumn of dumb stuff Ive all done while teenage vastly exceed the amount of dumb stuff I've done as an adult.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with the initial argument, but there is very much more than an element of truth in the statement that teenagers take more risks and are less attuned to the consequences of their actions than are adults due to their state of brain development.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that it is a logical conclusion to say that teenagers can't comprehend anything, which is what many people like to say, and henceforth what I am refuting.

I would genuinely like to see who said that.

But as I said, there is an element of truth due to evidence that can be demonstrated by studies of the brain.

Well, to be fair, they don't say that they can't comprehend anything, but they use it as a reason against sexual intercourse with kids, which implies that they believe that the lack of brain development is significant enough to retain the current legislation.

As I said, I may not agree with the conclusion, but the premise isnt false as you suggest, in fact it is demonstrable.

I'm not saying that the premise is false.

You kinda sorta imply it, but I appreciate it isn't exactly what you said.