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Evolution on Trial

theta_pinch
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1/31/2014 12:05:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Evolution is going on trial.
Creationists are the prosecutors.
"Evolutionists" are the defendants.
Any sufficiently complex phenomenon is indistinguishable from magic--Me

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
Niel deGrasse Tyson
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
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1/31/2014 12:09:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 12:05:15 PM, theta_pinch wrote:
Evolution is going on trial.
Creationists are the prosecutors.
"Evolutionists" are the defendants.

Well if this is American justice then evolution is definitely going to win. As long as there is reasonable doubt, then evolution is acquitted.

Really we should just discuss, "Which is more likely: Evolution or Creationism?"

Evolution, obviously.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
theta_pinch
Posts: 496
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1/31/2014 12:23:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 12:09:26 PM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:05:15 PM, theta_pinch wrote:
Evolution is going on trial.
Creationists are the prosecutors.
"Evolutionists" are the defendants.

Well if this is American justice then evolution is definitely going to win. As long as there is reasonable doubt, then evolution is acquitted.

Well evolution has pretty much been proven but creationists don't agree so they're going to try and disprove it; we have to defend evolution.

Really we should just discuss, "Which is more likely: Evolution or Creationism?"

Evolution, obviously.
Any sufficiently complex phenomenon is indistinguishable from magic--Me

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
Niel deGrasse Tyson
janetsanders733
Posts: 288
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1/31/2014 12:25:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm in between Old Earth Creationism and Theistic Evolution, so I would be somewhere in the middle on here................................................
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
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1/31/2014 12:33:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 12:23:19 PM, theta_pinch wrote:
Well evolution has pretty much been proven but creationists don't agree so they're going to try and disprove it; we have to defend evolution.

Well that depends on one major thing. Which parts of evolutionary theory have been made as tenable as gravity, and which are still under debate. Macro-evolution and micro-evolution are, in my opinion, without any significant flaw. Perhaps some minor aspects of the theory will be falsified, but I think that it is highly unlikely that the entire theory of either will be falsified.

The real debate is the origin of life. Where the very first cell(s) came from. That debate is Creation vs. Abiogenesis.
I personally lean towards Abiogenesis. It is most likely possible, and it is the only rational source of life that obeys the laws of nature. Creation, though, is probably the only alternative to abiogenesis. If someone could sufficiently disprove the possibility of abiogenesis, then creation would be the likely truth.

No one has really disproved the possibility of abiogenesis, though.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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1/31/2014 12:42:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 12:05:15 PM, theta_pinch wrote:
Evolution is going on trial.
Creationists are the prosecutors.
"Evolutionists" are the defendants.

I don't see it that way. I mean, yeah, it's a contest, but only because evolutionists are so damned fascist.

For me, we got here somehow. I'd like to know how. We all descended from a common ancestor through a long string of mutations, or something else happened. I fail to see why this has to be a trial, why people can't allow other humans to think for themselves.
This space for rent.
janetsanders733
Posts: 288
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1/31/2014 12:47:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The real issue is not Evolution vs. Creation. The Real issue is Atheism vs. Theism. I just don't see how Evolution Theory disproves the existence of God. I don't also see why God can't use natural means to bring about life.
MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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1/31/2014 12:47:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 12:42:42 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:05:15 PM, theta_pinch wrote:
Evolution is going on trial.
Creationists are the prosecutors.
"Evolutionists" are the defendants.

I don't see it that way. I mean, yeah, it's a contest, but only because evolutionists are so damned fascist.

For me, we got here somehow. I'd like to know how. We all descended from a common ancestor through a long string of mutations, or something else happened. I fail to see why this has to be a trial, why people can't allow other humans to think for themselves.

Fascist? Define fascism, I guarantee you that's inaccurate.

On another note, as addressed to everybody. I will be speaking as the defendant. Please, state your case, prosecutors. My feeling is, with the exception of maybe Dragonfang, not a lot of people will rise to it.

Even less likely: The prosecutors won't follow with their counter claim of Creationism. Let's hope I'm wrong.
v3nesl
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1/31/2014 1:06:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 12:47:30 PM, janetsanders733 wrote:
The real issue is not Evolution vs. Creation. The Real issue is Atheism vs. Theism. I just don't see how Evolution Theory disproves the existence of God. I don't also see why God can't use natural means to bring about life.

Whatever God did would by definition be natural once it's part of our world.

The problem with evolution is that it's garbage. There's no need to try to synchronize it with a creator because it's just fanciful nonsense. Hey, I've been there, tried to find some way to throw Darwin an intellectual bone, but the more you dig into evolution the less you find.
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v3nesl
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1/31/2014 1:10:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 12:47:41 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:42:42 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:05:15 PM, theta_pinch wrote:
Evolution is going on trial.
Creationists are the prosecutors.
"Evolutionists" are the defendants.

I don't see it that way. I mean, yeah, it's a contest, but only because evolutionists are so damned fascist.

For me, we got here somehow. I'd like to know how. We all descended from a common ancestor through a long string of mutations, or something else happened. I fail to see why this has to be a trial, why people can't allow other humans to think for themselves.

Fascist? Define fascism, I guarantee you that's inaccurate.


Oh, did I say something against the fatherland? I accept your rebuke, mein herr, I don't know what I was thinking.
This space for rent.
janetsanders733
Posts: 288
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1/31/2014 1:19:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 1:06:13 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:47:30 PM, janetsanders733 wrote:
The real issue is not Evolution vs. Creation. The Real issue is Atheism vs. Theism. I just don't see how Evolution Theory disproves the existence of God. I don't also see why God can't use natural means to bring about life.

Whatever God did would by definition be natural once it's part of our world.

The problem with evolution is that it's garbage. There's no need to try to synchronize it with a creator because it's just fanciful nonsense. Hey, I've been there, tried to find some way to throw Darwin an intellectual bone, but the more you dig into evolution the less you find.

I'm just saying that I don't see how evolution theory disproves God. In order for Atheism to be true, the atheist must give positive arguements or "proof" for the non-existence of God. So far, no atheist has given any really solid arguements that would show God to be a contradiction in reality or that he does not exist.
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
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1/31/2014 1:52:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 1:06:13 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:47:30 PM, janetsanders733 wrote:
The real issue is not Evolution vs. Creation. The Real issue is Atheism vs. Theism. I just don't see how Evolution Theory disproves the existence of God. I don't also see why God can't use natural means to bring about life.

Whatever God did would by definition be natural once it's part of our world.

The problem with evolution is that it's garbage. There's no need to try to synchronize it with a creator because it's just fanciful nonsense. Hey, I've been there, tried to find some way to throw Darwin an intellectual bone, but the more you dig into evolution the less you find.

Spoken like a true sheep.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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1/31/2014 2:21:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 1:19:56 PM, janetsanders733 wrote:
At 1/31/2014 1:06:13 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:47:30 PM, janetsanders733 wrote:
The real issue is not Evolution vs. Creation. The Real issue is Atheism vs. Theism. I just don't see how Evolution Theory disproves the existence of God. I don't also see why God can't use natural means to bring about life.

Whatever God did would by definition be natural once it's part of our world.

The problem with evolution is that it's garbage. There's no need to try to synchronize it with a creator because it's just fanciful nonsense. Hey, I've been there, tried to find some way to throw Darwin an intellectual bone, but the more you dig into evolution the less you find.

I'm just saying that I don't see how evolution theory disproves God.

It doesn't, any more than it disproves Elvis Presley. It's just that neither one is responsible for our humanity in that case.

Lots of people don't really understand what the theory is, so they think that putting God and evolution in the same sentence means something, but it really doesn't. Like I said in another thread, theistic evolution is like calling beethoven's music yellow. It's just unrelated words being used in the same sentence.
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MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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1/31/2014 3:44:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 1:10:59 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:47:41 PM, MysticEgg wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:42:42 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:05:15 PM, theta_pinch wrote:
Evolution is going on trial.
Creationists are the prosecutors.
"Evolutionists" are the defendants.

I don't see it that way. I mean, yeah, it's a contest, but only because evolutionists are so damned fascist.

For me, we got here somehow. I'd like to know how. We all descended from a common ancestor through a long string of mutations, or something else happened. I fail to see why this has to be a trial, why people can't allow other humans to think for themselves.

Fascist? Define fascism, I guarantee you that's inaccurate.


Oh, did I say something against the fatherland? I accept your rebuke, mein herr, I don't know what I was thinking.

"Was that sarcasm? I've heard better wisecracks from Orgnar?"_Sven

Still, I'm glad that is how you decided to respond, as oppose to offering a counter.
MysticEgg
Posts: 524
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1/31/2014 3:47:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'll be off for now, but to summarize:

We've seen plenty of assertions, thus far, as well as many posts from one Creationist, but no evidence against it. Confrontation is a wonderful thing.

Three hours down.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,136
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1/31/2014 6:55:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 1:19:56 PM, janetsanders733 wrote:
At 1/31/2014 1:06:13 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:47:30 PM, janetsanders733 wrote:
The real issue is not Evolution vs. Creation. The Real issue is Atheism vs. Theism. I just don't see how Evolution Theory disproves the existence of God. I don't also see why God can't use natural means to bring about life.

Whatever God did would by definition be natural once it's part of our world.

The problem with evolution is that it's garbage. There's no need to try to synchronize it with a creator because it's just fanciful nonsense. Hey, I've been there, tried to find some way to throw Darwin an intellectual bone, but the more you dig into evolution the less you find.

I'm just saying that I don't see how evolution theory disproves God. In order for Atheism to be true, the atheist must give positive arguements or "proof" for the non-existence of God. So far, no atheist has given any really solid arguements that would show God to be a contradiction in reality or that he does not exist.

Evolution is not an atheistic argument. Evolutionary theory does not exclude God, it just doesn't include him. I think many theists take issue with evolution because they think it is an argument against God. It is not.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
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1/31/2014 6:58:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 12:05:15 PM, theta_pinch wrote:
Evolution is going on trial.
Creationists are the prosecutors.
"Evolutionists" are the defendants.

Interesting post, Theta.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
theta_pinch
Posts: 496
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1/31/2014 7:01:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 1:06:13 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:47:30 PM, janetsanders733 wrote:
The real issue is not Evolution vs. Creation. The Real issue is Atheism vs. Theism. I just don't see how Evolution Theory disproves the existence of God. I don't also see why God can't use natural means to bring about life.

Whatever God did would by definition be natural once it's part of our world.

The problem with evolution is that it's garbage. There's no need to try to synchronize it with a creator because it's just fanciful nonsense. Hey, I've been there, tried to find some way to throw Darwin an intellectual bone, but the more you dig into evolution the less you find.

Good we finally have a prosecutor. Please state your arguments.
Any sufficiently complex phenomenon is indistinguishable from magic--Me

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
Niel deGrasse Tyson
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
Posts: 720
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1/31/2014 8:45:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 12:42:42 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:05:15 PM, theta_pinch wrote:
Evolution is going on trial.
Creationists are the prosecutors.
"Evolutionists" are the defendants.

I don't see it that way. I mean, yeah, it's a contest, but only because evolutionists are so damned fascist.

For me, we got here somehow. I'd like to know how. We all descended from a common ancestor through a long string of mutations, or something else happened. I fail to see why this has to be a trial, why people can't allow other humans to think for themselves.

You say people should be allowed to think for themselves and accuse evolutionary scientists of Fascism.

You do realize Hitler was thinking for himself right? To spell it out.

That means thinking for yourself is not always correct.
janetsanders733
Posts: 288
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1/31/2014 9:07:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I mean, I myself am an OEC, but not against Evolutionism. I just am not there yet, but maybe one day I will. I am sort of like InspiringPhilosophy's views on Evolution.

https://www.youtube.com...
Skepticalone
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1/31/2014 9:47:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 9:07:41 PM, janetsanders733 wrote:
I mean, I myself am an OEC, but not against Evolutionism. I just am not there yet, but maybe one day I will. I am sort of like InspiringPhilosophy's views on Evolution.


https://www.youtube.com...

I feel this is a reasonable approach for theists.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
janetsanders733
Posts: 288
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1/31/2014 10:02:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 9:47:44 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 1/31/2014 9:07:41 PM, janetsanders733 wrote:
I mean, I myself am an OEC, but not against Evolutionism. I just am not there yet, but maybe one day I will. I am sort of like InspiringPhilosophy's views on Evolution.


https://www.youtube.com...

I feel this is a reasonable approach for theists.

Yes:D
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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2/1/2014 12:12:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 12:05:15 PM, theta_pinch wrote:
Evolution is going on trial.
Creationists are the prosecutors.
"Evolutionists" are the defendants.

Cool...The DDO Monkey Trial.

You do understand that it is the theory of Universal Common Descent that the Creationists are prosecuting, correct?? If so, I'm ready to proceed with questioning.
Romanii
Posts: 4,864
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2/1/2014 1:32:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 12:25:13 PM, janetsanders733 wrote:
I'm in between Old Earth Creationism and Theistic Evolution, so I would be somewhere in the middle on here................................................

Is that even possible?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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2/1/2014 5:12:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 12:42:42 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:05:15 PM, theta_pinch wrote:
Evolution is going on trial.
Creationists are the prosecutors.
"Evolutionists" are the defendants.

I don't see it that way. I mean, yeah, it's a contest, but only because evolutionists are so damned fascist.

For me, we got here somehow. I'd like to know how. We all descended from a common ancestor through a long string of mutations, or something else happened. I fail to see why this has to be a trial, why people can't allow other humans to think for themselves.

yeah, its a shame those damn evolutionists are so fascist towards evidence and reasoned, logical thinking. If only they would allow unsubstantiated assertions as facts and laws....
tkubok
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2/1/2014 5:14:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 1:19:56 PM, janetsanders733 wrote:
At 1/31/2014 1:06:13 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:47:30 PM, janetsanders733 wrote:
The real issue is not Evolution vs. Creation. The Real issue is Atheism vs. Theism. I just don't see how Evolution Theory disproves the existence of God. I don't also see why God can't use natural means to bring about life.

Whatever God did would by definition be natural once it's part of our world.

The problem with evolution is that it's garbage. There's no need to try to synchronize it with a creator because it's just fanciful nonsense. Hey, I've been there, tried to find some way to throw Darwin an intellectual bone, but the more you dig into evolution the less you find.

I'm just saying that I don't see how evolution theory disproves God. In order for Atheism to be true, the atheist must give positive arguements or "proof" for the non-existence of God. So far, no atheist has given any really solid arguements that would show God to be a contradiction in reality or that he does not exist.

Well, sure, but i mean, this goes for everything. The mere existance of Faeries, for example, or Lepricons, dont necessarily produce any contradictions in reality.

The only time it produces a contradiction in reality is when people start claiming that Gods have specific attributes or has done something in the past.
janetsanders733
Posts: 288
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2/1/2014 8:46:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
No, what I'm saying is you need to give positive reasons for thinking there is no God. "Lack of evidence" is not a sufficient argument for atheism. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Many atheists in the past have tried to show how God is a logical contradiction Ex: "Can God make a stone heavier than he can lift?" By which it would follow that there is no God, but obviously the question itself is a logical contradiction.

Lack of evidence leaves you with Agnosticism and not Atheism. You don't know if there is a God or not. But the claim of belief "There is no God" is a knowledge claim and requires justification.
theta_pinch
Posts: 496
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2/1/2014 9:18:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 12:12:56 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 1/31/2014 12:05:15 PM, theta_pinch wrote:
Evolution is going on trial.
Creationists are the prosecutors.
"Evolutionists" are the defendants.

Cool...The DDO Monkey Trial.

You do understand that it is the theory of Universal Common Descent that the Creationists are prosecuting, correct?? If so, I'm ready to proceed with questioning.

Fine then; do universal common descent.
Any sufficiently complex phenomenon is indistinguishable from magic--Me

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
Niel deGrasse Tyson