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Changing without Time?

Orangatang
Posts: 442
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2/6/2014 8:14:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Is there some scientific theory that allows something to change without time (or while time is stopped)? I ask this because it is very important to the bang bang theory and whatever preceded it if anything. Basically, either the big bang "started" time from t=0 or time has always existed before the big bang. If there was no time before the big bang, then how could the big bang have even started? How can anything change or be caused in a timeless universe? Does calling it a spontaneous uncaused phenomenon actually answer this question? My intuition is telling me that time must have existed forever otherwise there would be nothing changing, or causing the universe to come into being in the first place. Thoughts?
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Drayson
Posts: 288
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2/6/2014 11:54:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/6/2014 8:14:52 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Is there some scientific theory that allows something to change without time (or while time is stopped)? I ask this because it is very important to the bang bang theory and whatever preceded it if anything. Basically, either the big bang "started" time from t=0 or time has always existed before the big bang. If there was no time before the big bang, then how could the big bang have even started? How can anything change or be caused in a timeless universe? Does calling it a spontaneous uncaused phenomenon actually answer this question? My intuition is telling me that time must have existed forever otherwise there would be nothing changing, or causing the universe to come into being in the first place. Thoughts?

Here's a conundrum for you that may help:

What is closer to the center of a circle than the center?
"I'm not saying I don't trust you...and I'm not saying I do. But I don't"

-Topper Harley
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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2/7/2014 12:24:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/6/2014 11:54:54 PM, Drayson wrote:
At 2/6/2014 8:14:52 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Is there some scientific theory that allows something to change without time (or while time is stopped)? I ask this because it is very important to the bang bang theory and whatever preceded it if anything. Basically, either the big bang "started" time from t=0 or time has always existed before the big bang. If there was no time before the big bang, then how could the big bang have even started? How can anything change or be caused in a timeless universe? Does calling it a spontaneous uncaused phenomenon actually answer this question? My intuition is telling me that time must have existed forever otherwise there would be nothing changing, or causing the universe to come into being in the first place. Thoughts?

Here's a conundrum for you that may help:

What is closer to the center of a circle than the center?

Lol, I don't see how that is helping.
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Jack212
Posts: 572
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2/7/2014 8:03:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/6/2014 8:14:52 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Is there some scientific theory that allows something to change without time (or while time is stopped)? I ask this because it is very important to the bang bang theory and whatever preceded it if anything. Basically, either the big bang "started" time from t=0 or time has always existed before the big bang. If there was no time before the big bang, then how could the big bang have even started? How can anything change or be caused in a timeless universe? Does calling it a spontaneous uncaused phenomenon actually answer this question? My intuition is telling me that time must have existed forever otherwise there would be nothing changing, or causing the universe to come into being in the first place. Thoughts?

Our intuitive concept of "time" is based on our experiences in a flat, stable region of the universe where space-time isn't warped much and quantum weirdness doesn't occur on the macroscopic level. In such scenarios, cause always precedes effect and things do not occur spontaneously. This is not how time operates under the extreme conditions found in the Big Bang, which is why we rely on mathematics to predict results instead of intuition. Imagine your perception of time as being like a compass, with North being the past and South the future. If you go to the Big Bang, it's like going to one of the Earth's magnetic poles - your compass will not work reliably. The concept of there being time "before" the Big Bang is as nonsensical as there being something north of the North Pole.
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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2/7/2014 8:59:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/7/2014 8:03:02 PM, Jack212 wrote:
Our intuitive concept of "time" is based on our experiences in a flat, stable region of the universe where space-time isn't warped much and quantum weirdness doesn't occur on the macroscopic level. In such scenarios, cause always precedes effect and things do not occur spontaneously. This is not how time operates under the extreme conditions found in the Big Bang, which is why we rely on mathematics to predict results instead of intuition. Imagine your perception of time as being like a compass, with North being the past and South the future. If you go to the Big Bang, it's like going to one of the Earth's magnetic poles - your compass will not work reliably. The concept of there being time "before" the Big Bang is as nonsensical as there being something north of the North Pole.

So your saying that time began spontaneously with the big bang due to extreme conditions of warped space-time. Is it valid to ask that quantum events can happen spontaneously before time began? Is it possible for some other system of time to have existed prior to the Big Bang (like the big bang created some new time system inside a larger time system)? Does anyone know how or why quantum phenomenon occur spontaneously?
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Jack212
Posts: 572
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2/7/2014 9:21:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/7/2014 8:59:35 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 2/7/2014 8:03:02 PM, Jack212 wrote:
Our intuitive concept of "time" is based on our experiences in a flat, stable region of the universe where space-time isn't warped much and quantum weirdness doesn't occur on the macroscopic level. In such scenarios, cause always precedes effect and things do not occur spontaneously. This is not how time operates under the extreme conditions found in the Big Bang, which is why we rely on mathematics to predict results instead of intuition. Imagine your perception of time as being like a compass, with North being the past and South the future. If you go to the Big Bang, it's like going to one of the Earth's magnetic poles - your compass will not work reliably. The concept of there being time "before" the Big Bang is as nonsensical as there being something north of the North Pole.

So your saying that time began spontaneously with the big bang due to extreme conditions of warped space-time. Is it valid to ask that quantum events can happen spontaneously before time began? Is it possible for some other system of time to have existed prior to the Big Bang (like the big bang created some new time system inside a larger time system)? Does anyone know how or why quantum phenomenon occur spontaneously?

No, it's not valid, as quantum events need time to occur (they just don't need it to occur in a straight line like biological entities do).

Quantum phenomena occur spontaneously because the vacuum of space is not empty, but is permeated by all sorts of fields that fluctuate and spit out virtual particles in an unpredictable manner (we cannot predict when/where they'll occur, only the probability that they'll occur in region X during time interval Y). In day-to-day life, these fluctuations are relatively unimportant. Near space-time singularities, like those found in black holes or at the very beginning of the universe, these effects become more noticeable.

The idea of a different system of time is unnecessary to explain things. It's much more likely that our intuition is simply wrong, as our brains never evolved to deal with timey-wimey scenarios.
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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2/7/2014 9:32:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/7/2014 9:21:52 PM, Jack212 wrote:

No, it's not valid, as quantum events need time to occur (they just don't need it to occur in a straight line like biological entities do).

So, time existed, it just wasn't linear. What was time then? Circular, parabolic? I really cannot even imagine a non-linear time scale.

Quantum phenomena occur spontaneously because the vacuum of space is not empty, but is permeated by all sorts of fields that fluctuate and spit out virtual particles in an unpredictable manner (we cannot predict when/where they'll occur, only the probability that they'll occur in region X during time interval Y). In day-to-day life, these fluctuations are relatively unimportant. Near space-time singularities, like those found in black holes or at the very beginning of the universe, these effects become more noticeable.

The idea of a different system of time is unnecessary to explain things. It's much more likely that our intuition is simply wrong, as our brains never evolved to deal with timey-wimey scenarios.

Agreed, it is probably superfluous. And yes I have no idea what you mean by non-linear time.
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Jack212
Posts: 572
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2/8/2014 4:45:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/7/2014 9:32:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:

So, time existed, it just wasn't linear. What was time then? Circular, parabolic? I really cannot even imagine a non-linear time scale.

Take a piece of string. One end is the past, the other is the future. Tie the two ends together. Get another piece of string and tie it to several points on the original one. Repeat with another piece of string, and another and another and another. Now scrunch it up into a ball and apply copious amounts of glue, then leave to dry. Finally, forget which string was your original one and which end was which. Voila! You now have non-linear time.
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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2/8/2014 5:03:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/8/2014 4:45:31 PM, Jack212 wrote:
At 2/7/2014 9:32:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:

So, time existed, it just wasn't linear. What was time then? Circular, parabolic? I really cannot even imagine a non-linear time scale.

Take a piece of string. One end is the past, the other is the future. Tie the two ends together. Get another piece of string and tie it to several points on the original one. Repeat with another piece of string, and another and another and another. Now scrunch it up into a ball and apply copious amounts of glue, then leave to dry. Finally, forget which string was your original one and which end was which. Voila! You now have non-linear time.

Lol, thanks for clearing that up. Reminds me of some quote: "If you think you understand quantum physics you don't understand quantum physics." I should just stop trying.
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